The Sufferings Of Christ

[journeymanisnothing]

So you see no difference between the deaths experienced by those in Sodom and the rich evil man who dies in ease and comfort?

No I don't. You understand this,
Sodom and Gomorrha...are set forth for an example, sufferingthe vengeance of eternal fire. Jde.1:7 and,
In Hades, where he (the rich) was in torment, Lk.16:23
So you can see there is no difference where the end is concerned.

But it doesn’t. No where does the Bible say the evil DESERVE mercy. It says the opposite.

Not according to Gods' compassion and according to the Son, we are to be like him.

I am a parent and the guilty don’t deserve mercy. I grant mercy when called for. If the one in authority grants mercy to all perpetrators then evil will abound and justice is gone.

He offers mercy to all and expects us to also,
When I say to a wicked person, ‘You will surely die,’ and you do not warn them or speak out to dissuade them from their evil ways in order to save their life, that wicked person will die for[fn] their sin, and I will hold you accountable for their blood. Eze.3:18
That's an order from the One who didn't exempt himself from it, but was crucified for it.

If a judge grants automatic mercy to his own offspring no matter what crime and refuses mercy to those persons he despises despite their repentance, it’s not at all good. We call that terrible injustice.

I'm not advocating either. All I've said is, mercy is offered to all. Those who reject his mercy will be destroyed.

That sweet Savior is going to send some to hell without mercy because it’s just.

Yes, I know, but until then show mercy.

 

[T. E. Smith]

Dorothy Mae I'm not seeing your point. Are you saying God is not merciful to all?
Also as for the relation between justice and mercy. If God is both, and is no god of confusion, then the two are not contradictory, and are both necessary parts of a being's good character. We see this with presidential pardons, which are not necessarily unjust.
I don't think I'm being simplistic. Why should a being have contradictory attributes? Does that even make any sense?

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Dorothy Mae I'm not seeing your point. Are you saying God is not merciful to all?

Depends upon how one sees this as being expressed or how this is defined. I’m a very down to earth person. The universalist says God is essentially mainly mercy and never justly punishes wrong. If we say the main sin is rejecting his mercy, then that’s more a petty personal affront. The main problem in scripture is insisting on doing wrong to others with no repentance. The Judge of all the Earth isn’t mainly concerned about Him being rejected.

So yes, of course God is merciful, but that’s not his only motivation.

Also as for the relation between justice and mercy. If God is both, and is no god of confusion, then the two are not contradictory, and are both necessary parts of a being's good character. We see this with presidential pardons, which are not necessarily unjust.
I don't think I'm being simplistic. Why should a being have contradictory attributes? Does that even make any sense?

Outstanding explanation. Spot on. Now why don’t you believe this Being exists?

 

[Dorothy Mae]

In a sense they are suddenly destroyed as they have damned themselves to the lake of fire in God's judgement against them when Christ returns and the books (not literal books) are opened and judgement is final.

John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
John 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Rev 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Might as well explain how I think. I’m trained as a scientist which meant, back then, one takes a theory and tests it in real life. For the person who pursues their own interests their whole life (selfish) the difference between instant BOOM destruction after a few infringes and a long and comfortable life is everything. For those observing, it is also everything.

David wrote in the Psalms asking God about he ease and success of the wicked. He wasn’t told they were instantly destroyed in some sense. He saw that their END was destruction. That is Gods view of the matter and it is the “sense” we do would well to adopt for our thinking. Destruction or judgement fir the wicked is sure to come if they don’t repent….but that is not this day for most.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

You're right. The religious leaders and others thought Jesus must have committed some sin, or broke some law, cause they thought he was being punished by God. The complete opposite of where scripture should have led them.

Pretty odd of them because they themselves put him to death. That’s like the Muslims, “whatever horrible suffering I choose to inflict upon you is Allahs will.”

 

[Dorothy Mae]

I do not think Gods righteousness demands mercy. What I see in Gods righteousness is the element of mercy contained within it.
I agree that mercy is granted from love, for God is love and his desire is clear.
Gods righteousness also contains an element of justice, for He is just.

Mercy is a requirement of Gods righteousness as much as Justice is a requirement of Gods rightousness. It’s not an either or discussion.

It’s also good to understand that the Bible describes two types of sinful behavior.
The first, and most common sin is sin done in ignorance of Gods way. Gods righteousness toward us is displayed with mercy. Do not confuse this with escaping natural consequences.
The second type of sin is willful sin. It is when we know better, but disregard Gods way. Gods mercy is still on display that we would recognize our sin.
When we harden our hearts, that sin leads to death, as James would say. It’s never a good idea to harden our hearts toward God.

I completely agree and well put!!

If our sin causes others to cry out against our atrocities and we fail to turn to Gods ways as we harden our heart toward God, then God may harden our heart and justice will be served.

Can you give a reference that says God hardens the heart of the wicked eventually? I read that God wants all men (always can be inferred) to come to repentance. This seems to contradict your position there.

As a scientist, you should understand cause and effect. As I attempted to explain above, there are two major types of sin that God responds to differently. God desires we approach his throne of grace that he can lavishly pour grace upon us. However, when we harden our hearts, his justice is displayed within his righteousness. For premeditated murder, justice is always served.

.

Ok although grace is lavishly poured out on the humble according to the Bible.

Theft may require discernment within the biblical narrative. There were those who stole to eat because some farmers did not leave the corners of their fields for them. This may be one reason why Paul’s says if one is a thief, he is to stop stealing, get a job and then give to those in need.

Being hungry doesn’t seem to be an excuse for stealing butOK.

God is predictable. He always starts with mercy and if unrepentant, he employs justice.

I’ve heard it said that truth without love is just somebody being mean. On the other hand, love without truth is simply meaningless.

Mercy is bound in love.

Nicely put. I agree. You have some deep food for thought. Getting a peek into how your mind works and you think about matters, not merely repeat what you’ve heard.

 

[T. E. Smith]

Depends upon how one sees this as being expressed or how this is defined. I’m a very down to earth person. The universalist says God is essentially mainly mercy and never justly punishes wrong. If we say the main sin is rejecting his mercy, then that’s more a petty personal affront. The main problem in scripture is insisting on doing wrong to others with no repentance. The Judge of all the Earth isn’t mainly concerned about Him being rejected.

So yes, of course God is merciful, but that’s not his only motivation.

Outstanding explanation. Spot on. Now why don’t you believe this Being exists?

Because there is no evidence whatsoever for the existence of this being.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Because there is no evidence whatsoever for the existence of this being.

There’s ample evidence. And billions of people have seen it. That you don’t doesn’t mean it isn’t there.

 

[journeymanisnothing]

Pretty odd of them because they themselves put him to death.

on their part, showing contempt for him,
He that hateth me hateth my Father also. Jn.15:23
But on his part, offering mercy still.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

on their part, showing contempt for him,
He that hateth me hateth my Father also. Jn.15:23
But on his part, offering mercy still.

Well that is until he blasted them in the worst judgement of God known to man.

 

[journeymanisnothing]

Well that is until he blasted them in the worst judgement of God known to man.

Some of them repented.

 

[T. E. Smith]

There’s ample evidence. And billions of people have seen it. That you don’t doesn’t mean it isn’t there.

Prove to me that God is merciful and just, then.

 

[Niblo]

That’s like the Muslims, “whatever horrible suffering I choose to inflict upon you is Allahs will.”

If you mean that I, as a Muslim, can inflict suffering on another, and do so with impunity, then no. This is not an Islamic teaching.

 

[stovebolts]

Being hungry doesn’t seem to be an excuse for stealing butOK.

Stealing isn’t ok, but what’s worse is not feeding the hungry, and putting them in a position to steal. This was a real issue in ancient Israel. When I was 17 I lived on the streets of Hollywood. There are many times I went hungry and had to steal just to eat. I lost 40 pounds. I eventually figured out how to sell Pot which gave me a daily income, and put me in a cheap motel every night and I didn’t have to steal for food. Ironically, I also fed a few other street rats I knew when they were hungry. It’s no fun being hungry. In smaller towns I would go to mom and pop stores and ask if they had any work, such as cleaning out freezers, moping, picking up trash etc for some food. Most would hire me and give me more than I asked. That approach did not work in Hollywood.
Hindsight is 50/50 so please consider I was 17 at the time. If I knew then what I know now I would have avoided that. So please, no judgment or condemnation. I was doing the best I knew how at that time.

although grace is lavishly poured out on the humble according to the Bible.

Yes, Gods mercy should cause us to be humble. I’m thinking of the servant who was forgiven his debt, yet would not forgive those who owed him. God shows mercy toward us, but if we don’t humble ourselves and show mercy toward others, we’ll… God doesn’t seem to tolerate that very well. Given the choice, God would rather pour his mercy out upon us than the wrath we’ve stored up upon ourselves.

Can you give a reference that says God hardens the heart of the wicked eventually? I read that God wants all men (always can be inferred) to come to repentance. This seems to contradict your position there.

I’m sorry, I assumed you were following the narrative. In Exodus, Pharoh hardens his heart multiple times toward God and by doing so, he inflicts additional suffering upon Israel. When we harden our heart, we are saying we are our own god and we have no accountability to anyone other than our own self interest, even if that means we cause suffering to those around us.

Pharoh, who continued to harden his own heart invoked Gods justice and God hardened his heart so that the world could see Gods righteousness on display. Ironically, Mariam was chastised for celebrating Pharohs death, hence the bitter waters of Marah and later, “God does not rejoice at the destruction of the wicked”. Justice can be bitter sweet. We see this through David with his son Abselom…

Regardless, Israel was told numerous times not to harden their hearts, and they knew why. Think of a mother who says to their child, “you better not do that”. The child knows what will happen if they do, so the mother does not have to say, “or else”. The Hebrew writer talks about this as well, when referring to, “Today, do not harden your heart as….” You know the rest.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

If you mean that I, as a Muslim, can inflict suffering on another, and do so with impunity, then no. This is not an Islamic teaching.

Well I’d ask a Muslim if all
that happens is Allahs will. Does this include what you do would be the second question.

 

[T. E. Smith]

If you mean that I, as a Muslim, can inflict suffering on another, and do so with impunity, then no. This is not an Islamic teaching.

Such caricatures of Islam are common among (mainly western) Christians.

Dorothy Mae If you actually read the Qur'an you'd see that in 59:23, peace is one of God's names. 39:10 sets "patience" above all other Islamic virtues. The word is sabr, which expresses something like non-violence.

Well I’d ask a Muslim if all
that happens is Allahs will. Does this include what you do would be the second question.

More complex than that. Your own holy book says, "For it is better to suffer for doing good, if that should be God's will, than for doing evil." Violence can be a part of God's will.

 

[for_his_glory]

Might as well explain how I think. I’m trained as a scientist which meant, back then, one takes a theory and tests it in real life. For the person who pursues their own interests their whole life (selfish) the difference between instant BOOM destruction after a few infringes and a long and comfortable life is everything. For those observing, it is also everything.

David wrote in the Psalms asking God about he ease and success of the wicked. He wasn’t told they were instantly destroyed in some sense. He saw that their END was destruction. That is Gods view of the matter and it is the “sense” we do would well to adopt for our thinking. Destruction or judgement fir the wicked is sure to come if they don’t repent….but that is not this day for most.

What does being a trained scientist have to do with what is already written in the scriptures.

I think you are misunderstanding what I said. This is not a theory or my own thinking, but what has already been written in the word of God in John 5:28-29. If one rejects God and His Son Christ Jesus they have literally damned themselves as their end is destruction in the lake of fire as they continue to willfully sin, Rev 20:11-15. There is no ease and success of the wicked when final judgement comes upon them as their end is destruction.

Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
Heb 10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Stealing isn’t ok, but what’s worse is not feeding the hungry, and putting them in a position to steal. This was a real issue in ancient Israel. When I was 17 I lived on the streets of Hollywood. There are many times I went hungry and had to steal just to eat. I lost 40 pounds. I eventually figured out how to sell Pot which gave me a daily income, and put me in a cheap motel every night and I didn’t have to steal for food. Ironically, I also fed a few other street rats I knew when they were hungry. It’s no fun being hungry. In smaller towns I would go to mom and pop stores and ask if they had any work, such as cleaning out freezers, moping, picking up trash etc for some food. Most would hire me and give me more than I asked. That approach did not work in Hollywood.
Hindsight is 50/50 so please consider I was 17 at the time. If I knew then what I know now I would have avoided that. So please, no judgment or condemnation. I was doing the best I knew how at that time.

Anecdotal stories of your struggles raise pity and feelings in readers, but we could also ask those who sell food how others stealing their products affects them and if we should simply have mercy on those who are hungry and therefore steal their goods. You see, for almost every sin, a human being is the victim and we do unjust if we ignore their loss.

Yes, Gods mercy should cause us to be humble. I’m thinking of the servant who was forgiven his debt, yet would not forgive those who owed him. God shows mercy toward us, but if we don’t humble ourselves and show mercy toward others, we’ll… God doesn’t seem to tolerate that very well. Given the choice, God would rather pour his mercy out upon us than the wrath we’ve stored up upon ourselves.

True.

I’m sorry, I assumed you were following the narrative. In Exodus, Pharoh hardens his heart multiple times toward God and by doing so, he inflicts additional suffering upon Israel. When we harden our heart, we are saying we are our own god and we have no accountability to anyone other than our own self interest, even if that means we cause suffering to those around us.

True although P is the only one the Bible describes as God hardening a heart (as well as P hardening his own.) Doesn’t seem to be a repeatable pattern.

Pharoh, who continued to harden his own heart invoked Gods justice and God hardened his heart so that the world could see Gods righteousness on display. Ironically, Mariam was chastised for celebrating Pharohs death, hence the bitter waters of Marah and later, “God does not rejoice at the destruction of the wicked”. Justice can be bitter sweet. We see this through David with his son Abselom…

Where is that scripture? Miriam being chastised.

Regardless, Israel was told numerous times not to harden their hearts, and they knew why. Think of a mother who says to their child, “you better not do that”. The child knows what will happen if they do, so the mother does not have to say, “or else”. The Hebrew writer talks about this as well, when referring to, “Today, do not harden your heart as….” You know the rest.

Absolutely correct. I agree.

 

[T. E. Smith]

True although P is the only one the Bible describes as God hardening a heart (as well as P hardening his own.) Doesn’t seem to be a repeatable pattern.

That's why Calvinists fetishize the story of Pharaoh. Because it's all they got.

 

[journeymanisnothing]

Your own holy book says, "For it is better to suffer for doing good, if that should be God's will, than for doing evil." Violence can be a part of God's will.

Not for the purpose of doing evil, but inspite of it, as the verse you cited says.