The sun shall be darkened...

[Stormcrow]

For your consideration:

{29} `And immediately after the tribulation of those days, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from the heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken; Matthew 24:29 (YLT)

The verse cited above - from Young's Literal Translation - is an example of apocalyptic language intended to communicate - through the use of hyperbole - how terrible the "great tribulation" Jerusalem would face in 70 AD was going to be.

Christ, in keeping with the tradition of the O.T. prophets, is using the same language they used whenever prophesying of God's judgment coming on a people. Here are some examples:

{10} For the stars of heaven and their constellations Will not flash forth their light; The sun will be dark when it rises And the moon will not shed its light. Isaiah 13:10 (NASB)

{7} "And when I extinguish you, I will cover the heavens and darken their stars; I will cover the sun with a cloud And the moon will not give its light. {8} "All the shining lights in the heavens I will darken over you And will set darkness on your land," Declares the Lord GOD. Ezekiel 32:7-8 (NASB)

{10} Before them the earth quakes, The heavens tremble, The sun and the moon grow dark And the stars lose their brightness. Joel 2:10 (NASB)

{31} "The sun will be turned into darkness And the moon into blood Before the great and awesome day of the LORD comes. Joel 2:31 (NASB)

{15} The sun and moon grow dark And the stars lose their brightness. Joel 3:15 (NASB)

{20} Will not the day of the LORD be darkness instead of light, Even gloom with no brightness in it? Amos 5:20 (NASB)

{9} "It will come about in that day," declares the Lord GOD, "That I will make the sun go down at noon And make the earth dark in broad daylight. Amos 8:9 (NASB)

{15} A day of wrath is that day, A day of trouble and distress, A day of destruction and desolation, A day of darkness and gloom, A day of clouds and thick darkness, Zephaniah 1:15 (NASB)

None of this language is to be taken literally: it is hyperbole intended to express the horrors of falling under the wrathful hand of God.

Christ is expressing EXACTLY the same thing to His audience when He uses these same words!

For what it's worth.

 

[D4Christ]

For your consideration:
The verse cited above - from Young's Literal Translation - is an example of apocalyptic language intended to communicate - through the use of hyperbole - how terrible the "great tribulation" Jerusalem would face in 70 AD was going to be.

Christ, in keeping with the tradition of the O.T. prophets, is using the same language they used whenever prophesying of God's judgment coming on a people. Here are some examples:

None of this language is to be taken literally: it is hyperbole intended to express the horrors of falling under the wrathful hand of God.

Christ is expressing EXACTLY the same thing to His audience when He uses these same words!

For what it's worth.

I respectfully disagree. Hyperbole is defined as :

obvious and intentional exaggeration.
2. an extravagant statement or figure of speech not intended to be taken literally, as “to wait an eternity.â€

Scriptures are very clear. When Christ is using an example to prove his point he will say words such as, "like" and "as". Examples of this type of "exaggeration" are found throughout scripture. This is when what is being described is being compared to something else and not to be confused as being that something else.

For example, prov 5

For the lips of an immoral woman are as sweet as honey,and her mouth is smoother than oil.

That being said, it seems to me that scriptures are very clear. If something is meant as an exaggeration we can tell. But if the scriptures state what will or shall be, why not take the author's at their Word. If we decide when or when not to take "will" or "shall" at face value then the whole bible is open to, imho, all sorts of unintended misinterpretations.

The scriptures you quoted are beautifully clear. When the DOL arrives. The sun will not shine...for all intents and purposes it will appear black. The stars will not shine and "seem" (alliteration) to fall from the sky. The moon is not said to turn into blood. Blood is not the issue, but the color of blood is what is being conveyed.

NLT Joel 2

The sun will become dark,
and the moon will turn blood red
...

When it is supposed to be light, the earth will be covered in darkness. How is that an exaggeration? What it is, is strange for the earth has never experienced this before in history. So, is it hard to imagine...yes. But that does not make it an exaggeration. If that's the case then the whole bible can be chalked up to fairy tales. Is the promise that we will "live and reign with Christ" forever or will will live forever also exaggeration? What about the promise to have "new" bodies that don't fall sick. Is this an exaggeration too? Based on what...our own limited vision of the future the Father has promised us?

Just my 2 cents,

Dee

 

[warhorse]

For your consideration:
The verse cited above - from Young's Literal Translation - is an example of apocalyptic language intended to communicate - through the use of hyperbole - how terrible the "great tribulation" Jerusalem would face in 70 AD was going to be.

Christ, in keeping with the tradition of the O.T. prophets, is using the same language they used whenever prophesying of God's judgment coming on a people. Here are some examples:

None of this language is to be taken literally: it is hyperbole intended to express the horrors of falling under the wrathful hand of God.

Christ is expressing EXACTLY the same thing to His audience when He uses these same words!

For what it's worth.

Do you also presume that this is hyperbole also?

Mathew 27v43 He trusted in God; let him deliver him now, if he will have him: for he said, I am the Son of God.
44 The thieves also, which were crucified with him, cast the same in his teeth.
45 Now from the sixth hour there was darkness over all the land unto the ninth hour.
46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?


Mark 15v32 Let Christ the King of Israel descend now from the cross, that we may see and believe. And they that were crucified with him reviled him.
33 And when the sixth hour was come, there was darkness over the whole land until the ninth hour.
34 And at the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani? which is, being interpreted, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

Luke 23v43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.
44 And it was about the sixth hour, and there was a darkness over all the earth until the ninth hour.
45 And the sun was darkened, and the veil of the temple was rent in the midst.

Your problem sir, is a lack of faith.

 

[Hitch]

I respectfully disagree. Hyperbole is defined as :


Scriptures are very clear. When Christ is using an example to prove his point he will say words such as, "like" and "as". Examples of this type of "exaggeration" are found throughout scripture. This is when what is being described is being compared to something else and not to be confused as being that something else.

For example, prov 5


That being said, it seems to me that scriptures are very clear. If something is meant as an exaggeration we can tell. But if the scriptures state what will or shall be, why not take the author's at their Word. If we decide when or when not to take "will" or "shall" at face value then the whole bible is open to, imho, all sorts of unintended misinterpretations.

The scriptures you quoted are beautifully clear. When the DOL arrives. The sun will not shine...for all intents and purposes it will appear black. The stars will not shine and "seem" (alliteration) to fall from the sky. The moon is not said to turn into blood. Blood is not the issue, but the color of blood is what is being conveyed.

NLT Joel 2


When it is supposed to be light, the earth will be covered in darkness. How is that an exaggeration? What it is, is strange for the earth has never experienced this before in history. So, is it hard to imagine...yes. But that does not make it an exaggeration. If that's the case then the whole bible can be chalked up to fairy tales. Is the promise that we will "live and reign with Christ" forever or will will live forever also exaggeration? What about the promise to have "new" bodies that don't fall sick. Is this an exaggeration too? Based on what...our own limited vision of the future the Father has promised us?

Just my 2 cents,

Dee

Luke 20:18
Whosoever shall fall upon that stone shall be broken; but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.


Is Christ a Stumbling Block or a Chief Corner Stone ?


Does He really have wings?


Its always interesting to me that ,for the most part, those who make the largest point wrt to literalism end uo making the smalleest point wrt literalism at the same tome.

Pete's apostolic interpretation of Joel in Acts makes a fine example. The same folks who proclaim Joel's prophecy is future do so because they demand a literal rendering of ;

7And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: 18And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:
19And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke:
20The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and notable day of the Lord come:
21And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.


And the same folks run from the same literalism ,from the same passage;


16But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;


Thinking nothing at all of violating their own systematic approach ,not to mention contradicting Pete.

 

[D4Christ]

Luke 20:18
Whosoever shall fall upon that stone shall be broken; but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.


Is Christ a Stumbling Block or a Chief Corner Stone ?


Does He really have wings?


Its always interesting to me that ,for the most part, those who make the largest point wrt to literalism end uo making the smalleest point wrt literalism at the same tome.

Pete's apostolic interpretation of Joel in Acts makes a fine example. The same folks who proclaim Joel's prophecy is future do so because they demand a literal rendering of ;

7And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: 18And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:
19And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke:
20The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and notable day of the Lord come:
21And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.


And the same folks run from the same literalism ,from the same passage;


16But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;


Thinking nothing at all of violating their own systematic approach ,not to mention contradicting Pete.

A systematic approach or a common sense approach? Language in general and interpretaion specifically requires common sense on the part of the reader and an understanding of the context of the passages from which one wants to interpret. The very scripture you quoted, Luke 20:18 is a perfect example of scriptures using illustrations to prove a point and further explain God's message.

9 Now Jesus turned to the people again and told them this story: “A man planted a vineyard, leased it to tenant farmers, and moved to another country to live for several years. 10 At the time of the grape harvest, he sent one of his servants to collect his share of the crop. But the farmers attacked the servant, beat him up, and sent him back empty-handed. 11 So the owner sent another servant, but they also insulted him, beat him up, and sent him away empty-handed. 12 A third man was sent, and they wounded him and chased him away.

13 “‘What will I do?’ the owner asked himself. ‘I know! I’ll send my cherished son. Surely they will respect him.’
14 “But when the tenant farmers saw his son, they said to each other, ‘Here comes the heir to this estate. Let’s kill him and get the estate for ourselves!’ 15 So they dragged him out of the vineyard and murdered him.
“What do you suppose the owner of the vineyard will do to them?†Jesus asked. 16 “I’ll tell you—he will come and kill those farmers and lease the vineyard to others.†“How terrible that such a thing should ever happen,†his listeners protested.
17 Jesus looked at them and said, “Then what does this Scripture mean?

‘The stone that the builders rejected
has now become the cornerstone.’
18 Everyone who stumbles over that stone will be broken to pieces, and it will crush anyone it falls on.†19 The teachers of religious law and the leading priests wanted to arrest Jesus immediately because they realized he was telling the story against them—they were the wicked farmers. But they were afraid of the people’s reaction.

Clearly the scriptures state Christ told a story, using illustrations to get his point across. The point of the story was that the owner sends his son who is then killed by the wicked farmers. As the result of their actions the owner promises to kill them for their deeds. Even the religoius priests in the crowd realized that in the story Christ told they were the farmers, whether or not they realized Christ was the Son whom they were going to kill. And Christ points to a passage in psalms 118:22 that states;

The stone that the builders rejected
has now become the cornerstone.

Christ brings this passage in the story to further illustrate that the rejection of the "cornerstone", just like they rejected and killed the son in the story, will result in the destruction of those who come against Christ (Cornerstone) The passage does not state Christ is a stumbling block. Acts 4 tells us that the cornerstone is referring to Christ.

11 For Christ is the one referred to in the Scriptures, where it says,

‘The stone that you builders rejected
has now become the cornerstone.’ 12 There is salvation in no one else! God has given no other name under heaven by which we must be saved.â€

There is a reference to a stone that makes people stumble in Rom 9:32-33

32 Why not? Because they were trying to get right with God by keeping the law instead of by trusting in him. They stumbled over the great rock in their path. 33 God warned them of this in the Scriptures when he said,
“I am placing a stone in Jerusalem that makes people stumble,
a rock that makes them fall.
But anyone who trusts in him
will never be disgraced."

This stone refers back to Isaiah 8:13-15.

13 Make the Lord of Heaven’s Armies holy in your life.
He is the one you should fear.
He is the one who should make you tremble.
14 He will keep you safe.
But to Israel and Judah
he will be a stone that makes people stumble,
a rock that makes them fall.
And for the people of Jerusalem
he will be a trap and a snare.
15 Many will stumble and fall,
never to rise again.
They will be snared and captured.â€

The "he will be a stone" refers back to LORD of Heaven's Armies, which is translated in the Hebrew as "Yahweh of Hosts."

Since I do not believe that Christ is the same person as His Father, the scriptures imho are stating that the Yahweh, the Father, is the stone that makes the people stumble.

Cornerstone in the NT is never referred to as a stumbling block, but as Christ himself.

This is where common sense comes in to play. Christ isn't really a stone now is he? And the religious leaders who heard the story weren't really farmers. But they seemed to grasp the point of the story, so why can't we? It's a literal interpretation of a figurative story.

Blessings,
Dee

 

[Stormcrow]

Your problem sir, is a lack of faith.

Yep. I lack faith in just about every dispensationalist position you've posted in response to me.

On the other hand, I do have faith in the Lord who said what He did and meant what He said.

 

[Stormcrow]

Do you also presume that this is hyperbole also?

Mathew 27v43 He trusted in God; let him deliver him now, if he will have him: for he said, I am the Son of God.
44 The thieves also, which were crucified with him, cast the same in his teeth.
45 Now from the sixth hour there was darkness over all the land unto the ninth hour.
46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

No. I consider that a historical account of what happened on the day Christ was crucified. It is neither apocalyptic nor hyperbolic.

I know the difference. Do you?

Nice strawman, though.

 

[Stormcrow]

The scriptures you quoted are beautifully clear. When the DOL arrives. The sun will not shine...for all intents and purposes it will appear black.

So you take this literally.

But not this.

The stars will not shine and "seem" (alliteration) to fall from the sky.

So things you claim to be quite literal at first glance "seem" to take on a figurative nature when - even you - realize that stars "falling from the sky" isn't possible in the real world.

Then you completely reject the literal intent of the author here:

The sun will be turned into darkness And the moon into blood...Joel 2:31 (NASB)

The moon is not said to turn into blood. Blood is not the issue, but the color of blood is what is being conveyed.

That's not what the text of Joel 2:31 says! It says the moon will be turned "into blood!" So by your own very literal standard for interpreting these passages, the moon will have to turn into blood!

But you and I both know that's not possible, so it can only mean Joel was using hyperbole!

In short, during the course of your very long post, you moved from viewing Joel 2:31 as strictly literal (sun darkened), to "seemingly" literal (stars falling), to completely figurative, (moon only chaning to the color of blood) thus completely undermining your whole argument for taking any of these verses literally!

You didn't even apply a consistent literalist view to one of them!

You want a "common sense approach?" Try understanding them as hyperbole intended to express the horrors of God's wrath fully unleashed on a people or nation! That's the "common sense" way to view these verses!

And that is my $.02.

And one more thing:

Don't confuse simile, allegory, metaphor, and parable with hyperbole. They are not the same.

 

[warhorse]

Yep. I lack faith in just about every dispensationalist position you've posted in response to me.

On the other hand, I do have faith in the Lord who said what He did and meant what He said.

Check your facts sir, my position is non-dispensational. Not every position that is futerist or even partially futerist is dispy. And you have just declared 8 scriptures that point to a single futer event as complete because you choose not to except a literal fullfillment based on assumptions at best. Study those scriptures, and you will find those events are still predicted in the gospels, the acts ,peter and Rev. Oh and the do not match 70ad.

 

[Stormcrow]

because you choose not to except a literal fullfillment based on assumptions at best.

:biglol

Shall I reiterate all the passages I have cited of Christ's words - and those of His apostles - pointing to His expected return in judgment on Jerusalem in their lifetime???

What parts of "soon", "near", "quickly", "last hour", "last days", "end of the ages" did the apostles use that don't resonate with you?

With all due respect, you're doing what I did for years: you've accepted a doctrine that someone you respected taught you, never having a reason to challenge it, and now that it's being challenged, you get defensive, and try to defend it by pulling verses wildly out of context and ignoring those which expose your closely held belief as a lie!

Been there. Done that. Couldn't do that anymore. I surrendered to the clarity and simplicity of Christ's very own words and those of His apostles. I don't need hundreds of pages of man-made commentary to explain Christ's words to me: I take them at face value, precisely as He spoke them to His disciples.

That's what it means to have "child-like faith." Adults complicate His words with doctrine yet they are simple enough for children to understand and believe them.

If Christ said "soon" and "near" and "quickly" in reference to His coming before some of them died, who am I to argue with Him? Who are you to do so???

It's all just that simple, and the day you lay down your pride and accept these things is the day His words and what He meant will begin to be clear for you, as they have for me.

 

[D4Christ]

Stormcrow,

You seem to have all the answers on what is and is not possible for the Lord. Can we really live forever....and it seems odd to think that we will rise in the air and meet the Lord in the clouds doesn't it.

Good Luck with that

Dee

 

[Lehigh3]

I agree with Stormcrow.
And it is not too surprising to hear from ppl who do not even know how to recognize prophecy or the figurative language of the prophets!

Revelation is a book of apocalyptic language, described in metaphors, similes, hyperboles - in the language of the PROPHETS. Jesus' testimony was the spirit of prophecy (Rev.19:10) The Spirit is relating to John in figurative language about the events that would soon take place in the AD60's. Some of the things John had seen- some things already were- & then the angel says the things which must soon take place. Now, did John live for thousands of years, lol!

Learn to discern prophetic terms. Do trees of the field literally & actually clap their hands? (Isa.55:12) Sun, moon, stars, air, swords, sea, horses, lambs, heaven & earth, flood, hail, death, olive trees, palms, etc. all have prophetic
meanings aside from their literal usage in scripture.
Learn what is narrative & what is prophetic language in scripture. Learn to separate & understand them.
Lastly, do not ignore recorded history either written about the great tribulation & other fulfilled events. Then if the Holy Spirit does not enlighten you in the matter & with what is written in the Text- then seek Him in prayer & ask for an answer. If you are walking in the Spirit, you should be able to get even an audible answer from God. An impression in your spirit of His wisdom will suffice also. But clearly you should be able to hear God's voice in the matter- if you seek Him with all your heart.

 

[warhorse]

:biglol

Shall I reiterate all the passages I have cited of Christ's words - and those of His apostles - pointing to His expected return in judgment on Jerusalem in their lifetime???

What parts of "soon", "near", "quickly", "last hour", "last days", "end of the ages" did the apostles use that don't resonate with you?

With all due respect, you're doing what I did for years: you've accepted a doctrine that someone you respected taught you, never having a reason to challenge it, and now that it's being challenged, you get defensive, and try to defend it by pulling verses wildly out of context and ignoring those which expose your closely held belief as a lie!

Been there. Done that. Couldn't do that anymore. I surrendered to the clarity and simplicity of Christ's very own words and those of His apostles. I don't need hundreds of pages of man-made commentary to explain Christ's words to me: I take them at face value, precisely as He spoke them to His disciples.

That's what it means to have "child-like faith." Adults complicate His words with doctrine yet they are simple enough for children to understand and believe them.

If Christ said "soon" and "near" and "quickly" in reference to His coming before some of them died, who am I to argue with Him? Who are you to do so???

It's all just that simple, and the day you lay down your pride and accept these things is the day His words and what He meant will begin to be clear for you, as they have for me.

Well first off i should say that i was never taught dispy or pre-trib, i held that view for a short time because it was where the crowd was. About 8 years ago i decided to seek out and find all that i could to support the position, after reading the entire bible i found it lacking any real scriptural support. So i went back to the bible seeking what God had to say about it, and all other doctrines of interest. Along the way i determined that a few rules needed to be in place for guidence. One, question everything, Two, dont establish positions without multiple scriptures for support, 3 Accept the natural reading of scriptures readily, and 4, dont look to outside sources for guidence.
After my views were established i set out to find out what views the world held, and why they held them. I even spent many months on these very forums arguing and discecting scriptures under another login. Until my wife and i went into marrage counceling because of my obsessive study habits of ten to twelve hours a day at home or at work (an i aint no pastor). Now that being said on my own (just the holy spirit and my KJV) i came to most of the same conclusions you hold. But you are grasping to support a position that is not naturally read in scripture. You are telling me that Jesus said his return would be soon, but the bible is telling me Jesus didnt himself know when his return woud be, you have twisted both of those questions in Math 24 into one answer. The apostals did indeed believe they were in the tribulation, and for good reason, they were, and we still are in the tribulation. Look at you own scripture it says all the land Jerusalam is only a small part of it. You have so latched on to the concept that christ had to return in that generation that you are ignoring a total lack of historical evidence and spiritualising a boatload of biblical prophacy to support it.

How do you explain luke 21v22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.
24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

Jerusalam was not tred under by the Gentils for 3 1/2 years in 70 ad the Jews were in seige there for that time, then they were led into all nations, so when was the times of the gentils fullfilled here. In fact when have the Jews held control over Jerusalam since then. If the times of the Gentils started it surely has not stopped yet.
Look i seriosly considered your position before i ever heard of stormcrow, likely before you even heard of the position yourself, but it has more holes in it then posterboard at a pistol range. Both you and the dispy err in the same way. By demanding an all or nothing interpritation without wrightly devining the word of truth.

 

[Stormcrow]

You are telling me that Jesus said his return would be soon, but the bible is telling me Jesus didn’t himself know when his return would be, you have twisted both of those questions in Math 24 into one answer.

Which is EXACTLY why He told them “SOON!” He didn’t know when His return would be, but that’s exactly why He told them what to watch for! He also told them some of them standing there listening to Him would still be alive!!!

If I tell you, “I’ll be over soon” and you ask “when”, why would I give you a specific time for my arrival when I don’t know when that is?

Why is this so difficult to grasp???

Look at you own scripture it says all the land Jerusalem is only a small part of it.

Small part of it? Small part of it??? It was home to one of the wonders of the ancient world: the Temple! It was a preeminent city among all those in the world in its day, and was the capitol of Judea!

On top of that, it was the most significant piece of real estate to the Jews and was considered all holy to God!

"Behold, days are coming," declares the LORD, "when the city [Jerusalem] will be rebuilt for the LORD from the Tower of Hananel to the Corner Gate. {39} "The measuring line will go out farther straight ahead to the hill Gareb; then it will turn to Goah. {40} "And the whole valley of the dead bodies and of the ashes, and all the fields as far as the brook Kidron, to the corner of the Horse Gate toward the east, shall be holy to the LORD; it will not be plucked up or overthrown anymore forever." Jeremiah 31:38-40 (NASB)

[FONT=&quot]The whole city was considered holy to God![/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Furthermore, if you look at the progression of the Olivet Discourse, Jesus starts with wide-ranging events, narrows the focus to Jerusalem, then talks about events ensnaring “all the land!” This is borne out by the fact that while Jerusalem and the temple were destroyed in 70 AD, THE ENTIRE LAND WAS ENGULFED IN WAR FROM THE MOMENT THE ROMANS ARRIVED IN 66 AD!!![/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Do yourself a favor: get hold of an online copy of Josephus’ “Wars of the Jews” and read the history of Judea’s first war with Rome. It will clear up a lot for you.[/FONT]

You have so latched on to the concept that christ had to return in that generation…

Then I’m in good company because that’s what Christ told the apostles to believe, and that’s EXACTLY what they wrote in their letters which comprise the New Testament!

And as I have indicated time and time again, what you think His return means is NOT what He meant by His return! What do you think His opening of the seals in Revelation 5 is all about?!?!? HE’S UNLEASHING JUDGMENT ON THEM!!!

How do you explain luke 21v22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.

As noted just above, read Revelation 5 and 6 with Matthew 21-24 and Luke 19-21! All the answers to your questions are there IF you’re willing to see them!

You keep asking the same questions over and over again, and posting the same arguments and refuse to accept the answers Christ's own words provide.

I'm not the problem here.

Post is long. Out for now.

 

[Stormcrow]

Stormcrow,

You seem to have all the answers on what is and is not possible for the Lord.

Only those the Bible provides.

Can we really live forever....

I hope so, don't you?

Good Luck with that

Ditto.

 

[EricTheBaptist]

So from what I can see here the sun is going to go dark (It's not expected to die for billions of more years) and stars (Which are gases) are going to "fall" unto the Earth? The Sun is considered a very small star and assuming we wouldn't be scorched by it getting too close to us it would pull the earth into it and then we'd be scorched.

 

[Stormcrow]

So from what I can see here the sun is going to go dark (It's not expected to die for billions of more years) and stars (Which are gases) are going to "fall" unto the Earth? The Sun is considered a very small star and assuming we wouldn't be scorched by it getting too close to us it would pull the earth into it and then we'd be scorched.

While the language itself is apocalyptic hyperbole, there is some case to be made for a figurative view of the language. (This is something no one of the literal persuasion has touched on, but it does bear mentioning.)

When something as large as a city of the size of Babylon, Jerusalem, or even Rome burns, a great deal of particulate matter - in the form of ashes, dust and smoke - is thrown into the air. Smoke rising from a fire is certainly thick enough to blot out the sun, and - given a large enough fire - can also scatter the blue end of the visible light spectrum sufficiently enough to cause objects seen through it to have a red hue.

Here are some examples of this:

View attachment 1991
Kuwaiti oil fire darkens the sky, effectively blotting out the sun.

View attachment 1992
Moon in Earth's penumbra during lunar eclipse: dust in the atmosphere scatters blue light.

And obviously, any smoke from a fire thick enough to blot out the sun would also blot out the light from stars.

So while there are "real world" examples of the language used by the prophets describing such things, the language itself is apocalyptic hyperbole intended to express the horrors associated with God's wrath.

In other words, the sun goes dark due to the smoke from cities burning to the ground. The moon goes red because dust particles from it scatter blue light, and the stars disappear behind the smoke of the same fires that blot out the sun.

We know the science behind such events. The prophets did not, and so they were trying to express what they received from God in terms the people to whom they were speaking could understand.

The point is the language of the prophets can't be taken literally as written, but given what we know about the science of disasters - natural and man-made - the language can't be dismissed, either.

 

[jasoncran]

While the language itself is apocalyptic hyperbole, there is some case to be made for a figurative view of the language. (This is something no one of the literal persuasion has touched on, but it does bear mentioning.)

When something as large as a city of the size of Babylon, Jerusalem, or even Rome burns, a great deal of particulate matter - in the form of ashes, dust and smoke - is thrown into the air. Smoke rising from a fire is certainly thick enough to blot out the sun, and - given a large enough fire - can also scatter the blue end of the visible light spectrum sufficiently enough to cause objects seen through it to have a red hue.

Here are some examples of this:

View attachment 2249
Kuwaiti oil fire darkens the sky, effectively blotting out the sun.

View attachment 2250
Moon in Earth's penumbra during lunar eclipse: dust in the atmosphere scatters blue light.

And obviously, any smoke from a fire thick enough to blot out the sun would also blot out the light from stars.

So while there are "real world" examples of the language used by the prophets describing such things, the language itself is apocalyptic hyperbole intended to express the horrors associated with God's wrath.

In other words, the sun goes dark due to the smoke from cities burning to the ground. The moon goes red because dust particles from it scatter blue light, and the stars disappear behind the smoke of the same fires that blot out the sun.

We know the science behind such events. The prophets did not, and so they were trying to express what they received from God in terms the people to whom they were speaking could understand.

The point is the language of the prophets can't be taken literally as written, but given what we know about the science of disasters - natural and man-made - the language can't be dismissed, either.

i mentioned once elsewhere the punumbra . i have seen that here in florida. stars falling could be meteors or rather "falling stars" an astronimcal event. but that could and would make it predictable.

however since no reference of any time frame that isnt the case

 

[warhorse]

Stormcrow, i disagree
5 And as some spake of the temple, how it was adorned with goodly stones and gifts, he said,
6 As for these things which ye behold, the days will come, in the which there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
7 And they asked him, saying, Master, but when shall these things be? and what sign will there be when these things shall come to pass?
8 And he said, Take heed that ye be not deceived: for many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and the time draweth near: go ye not therefore after them.
9 But when ye shall hear of wars and commotions, be not terrified: for these things must first come to pass; but the end is not by and by.
10 Then said he unto them, Nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom:
11 And great earthquakes shall be in divers places, and famines, and pestilences; and fearful sights and great signs shall there be from heaven.
12 But before all these, they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name's sake.
(This is the church not the Jews)
13 And it shall turn to you for a testimony.
14 Settle it therefore in your hearts, not to meditate before what ye shall answer:
15 For I will give you a mouth and wisdom, which all your adversaries shall not be able to gainsay nor resist.
16 And ye shall be betrayed both by parents, and brethren, and kinsfolks, and friends; and some of you shall they cause to be put to death.
17 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake.
(The church again)
18 But there shall not an hair of your head perish.
19 In your patience possess ye your souls.
20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
(The desolation of Jerusalam is near)
21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.
22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.
24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations:
(70ad) and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
(Uncomplete)
25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
29 And he spake to them a parable; Behold the fig tree, and all the trees;
30 When they now shoot forth, ye see and know of your own selves that summer is now nigh at hand.
31 So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand.
32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.
(Given in context of the parable)
33 Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.
34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.
35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.
36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.
Oh and i was on the border of kuwait when those oil fires where lit, and these verses did come to mind. The smoke however was so thick that not even night vision gogles could be used. The sun darkened happens annually with eclipses as does the moon turning red, so there are many ways for God to literaly fullfill these scriptures.

 

[Lehigh3]

12 But before all these, they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name's sake.
(This is the church not the Jews)
13 And it shall turn to you for a testimony.
14 Settle it therefore in your hearts, not to meditate before what ye shall answer:
15 For I will give you a mouth and wisdom, which all your adversaries shall not be able to gainsay nor resist.
16 And ye shall be betrayed both by parents, and brethren, and kinsfolks, and friends; and some of you shall they cause to be put to death.
17 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake.
(The church again)
18 But there shall not an hair of your head perish.
19 In your patience possess ye your souls.

This is the apostles Christ is talking to & referring to. The brother against brother is about how their brethren (the Jews- the apostles were JEWS, duh!) who would be split on the "Way" (Christianity & the gospel these remnant Jews were preaching)
Well attested in history that many Jews rejected the message of the gospel & wanted to kill the apostles & disciples of Christ. And predicted by Christ how the Jews killed God's prophets in the past- & would kill the prophets, & wise men that He would send to them (Mt.23:32-36)

20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
(The desolation of Jerusalam is near)
21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.
22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.
24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations:
(70ad) and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
(Uncomplete)

This Christ addresses to the apostles, but the faithful disciples living in "that generation" - to be specific. Not all the "apostles" - meaning just the 12 would see Him coming in his kingdom with power. (AD70) But the disciples He is addressing (audience relevance) were instructed to leave Judea & flee to the mts. during that actual time in history. This is well recorded in history, & even by Eusebius.

Luke concurs: LK21:20-22 NKJV,
The Destruction of Jerusalem


20 “But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near. 21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those who are in the midst of her depart, and let not those who are in the country enter her. 22 For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.


God was shaking the powers of both heaven & earth at the end of the Mosaic age.
Don't let the devil deceive & blind you of God keeping his word & fulfilling His prophecies!