The Theology of Self Examination, testing to see whether one is "in the faith"

[Free]

I have been reading the Bible both OT and NT repeatedly.

That's good but that still doesn't mean you understand what it actually says.

My faith is not according to any man-made churches.

How do you know it isn't man-made by you? Do you go to church? If you don't, you're living in disobedience to the Bible.

My reasonings are all contextual according to the Bible Both OT and NT.

No, you have taken verses out of context, which is exactly how you came to the conclusion that Jesus isn't God. I have given many verses and passages and you have yet to actually address a single one.

On the other hand, trin churches are full of man-made doctrines.

How do you know the doctrines you believe aren't man-made or self-made?

 

[gordon777]

I have been quoting everything and everyone that harmonizes with God and Jesus' teachings and the whole context of the Bible.

Sure, and yet you are the same as the others who claim they have, yet all are achieving the same, zero.

 

[Free]

Here is my point for you:

Matthew 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

2 Thessalonians 2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

Okay, but, what does that have to do with anything in this discussion?

 

[grace2]

Sure, and yet you are the same as the others who claim they have, yet all are achieving the same, zero.

What is your achievement?

 

[gordon777]

How do you know it isn't man-made by you? Do you go to church? If you don't, you're living in disobedience to the Bible.

The church comes to us, why would you go to it, that is advice that is not biblical.

 

[gordon777]

Okay, but, what does that have to do with anything in this discussion?

Everything, it is the deceit that is happening right this moment.

 

[gordon777]

What is your achievement?

To show your discussions are with no purpose, nothing of God.

 

[grace2]

That's good but that still doesn't mean you understand what it actually says.

I will let God be the judge of that.

I don't twist around to fit the scripture to fit man-made doctrines.

 

[Alfred Persson]

No, you're not in the place to decide for yourself what the meanings of words are. That is actually a thoroughly worldly, progressive (in the negative, left-wing sense) approach to language.


That's good. So do the vast majority of theologians and Bible experts, such as Dr. Michael Brown.


This undermines your whole position. If "God does not change" and "there was only God's revelation of what is true," then 'echad means what it means, and what it means is simply "one." It can refer to a compound unity, but only if the context shows that that is the case. It does not always refer to a compound unity, as these verses show:

Gen 2:21 So the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon the man, and while he slept took one of his ribs and closed up its place with flesh. (ESV)

How many ribs?

Gen 10:25 To Eber were born two sons: the name of the one was Peleg, for in his days the earth was divided, and his brother's name was Joktan. (ESV)

How many sons were named Peleg?

Gen 42:13 And they said, “We, your servants, are twelve brothers, the sons of one man in the land of Canaan, and behold, the youngest is this day with our father, and one is no more.” (ESV)

How many men fathered the twelve brothers? How many are no more?

Given that 'echad is used in the OT 968 times, there are numerous additional examples I could give that show it is also used to simply mean one and does not refer to a compound unity.

It also seems that you may not understand just what progressive revelation refers to. But that is another discussion.

Your word study doesn't disprove compound unity in Deuteronomy, only that echad is also found denoting a singular item elsewhere.

Genesis 1:26 is another example:

Then God said, "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth." (Gen. 1:26 NKJ)

The plural “We” was regarded by the fathers and earlier theologians almost unanimously as indicative of the Trinity: modern commentators, on the contrary, regard it either as pluralis majestatis; or as an address by God to Himself, the subject and object being identical; or as communicative, an address to the spirits or angels who stand around the Deity and constitute His council. The last is Philo’s explanation: διαλέγεται ὁ τῶν ὅλων πατὴρ ταῖς ἑαυτοῦ δυνάμεσιν (δυνάμεις = angels).-Keil, C. F., & Delitzsch, F. (1996). Commentary on the Old Testament (Vol. 1, p. 38). Hendrickson.

I agree with the fathers, most today go with pluralis majestatis, but that is a fiction forced upon those who do not believe scripture truly is Revelation from God, therefore words cannot convey ideas they consider unknown to its human writers.

You quote Hebrew scholars, so will I D. Fruchtenbaum of Ariel Ministries:

Since Elohim created the universe and the earth, R. A. Torrey continues the argument that the Elohim is plural, which includes the Father, Son and Holy Spirit in creation. He states the following in relation to Elohim, which adds further information to chapter 2 of this book and implies the Holy Spirit, as well as the Father and Son in creation, was Elohim:

Why did the Hebrews, with their unquestionable and intense monotheism, use a plural name for God? This was the question that puzzled the Hebrew grammarians and lexicographers of the past, and the best explanation that they could arrive at was the plural of God here used was ‘the pluralis majestatis,’ that is, the plural of majesty. But this explanation is entirely inadequate. To say nothing of the fact that the pluralis majestatis in the Old Testament is a figure of very doubtful occurrence—I have not been able to find any place in the Old Testament where it is clear that the pluralis majestatis is used—but in addition to that, even if it were true that the pluralis majestatis does occur in the Old Testament, there is another explanation for the use of a plural name for God that is far nearer at hand and far more adequate and satisfactory, and that is, that the Hebrew inspired writers used a plural name for God, in spite of their intense monotheism, because there is a plurality of person in the one Godhead.1034
1034 R. A. Torrey, The Holy Spirit (New York: Revell, 1927), 21–22.
Fruchtenbaum, D. A. G. (2010). Foreword. In Discovering the Mystery of the Unity of God: A Theological Study on the Plurality and Tri-unity of God in the Hebrew Scriptures (pp. 338–339). Ariel Ministries.

As for progressive revelation, I was objecting to the abuse of it, for example:

Second, the principle of progressive revelation also means that biblical words will change in their meaning as the understanding of God’s people deepens. Each new revelation meant a deeper understanding of some aspect of divine truth. Thus, we must not assume that a biblical word will have only one meaning which transcends the division between the Old and the New Testaments.

Two errors are commonly made in this regard. Some read the vagueness of the Old Testament into the New Testament and fail to appreciate the final clarity of the New Testament. They state that the meaning of Sheol in the Old Testament determines the meaning of Hades in the New Testament. Thus there is no further or deeper meaning in the New Testament. Once one discovers the meaning of the Old Testament meaning of the concept of Sheol, this is to be transported in its entirety into the New Testament with no deletions or additions.-Morey, R. A. (1984). Death and the afterlife (p. 23). Bethany House.

That is error, the meaning of Sheol is the NT meaning of Hades. It refers to the "unseen realm", not the Greek idea of Hades. Within the "unseen realm" are "compartments" that might be similar to the Greek idea of Hades, but that isn't the entire meaning of the term.

Hence both Abraham and the Rich Man are in the "unseen realm", both not necessarily "under the earth."

Many adopted Greek views of Hades, and consider it "deeper understanding". I do not, I consider it error. God wrote the Bible, it does not contradict. Its "details" are not to be blurred out under the assumption things got "clearer" as time went on.

 

[gordon777]

I will let God be the judge of that.

I don't twist around to fit the scripture to fit man-made doctrines.

Here is the false and the true doctrine, which do you agree to:

2 Timothy 3:7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.
8 Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith.
9 But they shall proceed no further: for their folly shall be manifest unto all men, as their's also was.
10 But thou hast fully known my doctrine, manner of life, purpose, faith, longsuffering, charity, patience,
11 Persecutions, afflictions, which came unto me at Antioch, at Iconium, at Lystra; what persecutions I endured: but out of them all the Lord delivered me.
12 Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.

 

[grace2]

To show your discussions are with no purpose, nothing of God.

I have a mission for the forums.

my mission is to spread the triune god is a false God to the world.

Do you know why?

Because Jesus says God is one is the most important commandment.

The most important commandment is the core teaching of Christianity.

 

[gordon777]

I agree with your word study etc.,

Your word study doesn't disprove compound unity, only that it can denote a singular item. Genesis 1:26 is another example:

Then God said, "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth." (Gen. 1:26 NKJ)

The plural “We” was regarded by the fathers and earlier theologians almost unanimously as indicative of the Trinity: modern commentators, on the contrary, regard it either as pluralis majestatis; or as an address by God to Himself, the subject and object being identical; or as communicative, an address to the spirits or angels who stand around the Deity and constitute His council. The last is Philo’s explanation: διαλέγεται ὁ τῶν ὅλων πατὴρ ταῖς ἑαυτοῦ δυνάμεσιν (δυνάμεις = angels).-Keil, C. F., & Delitzsch, F. (1996). Commentary on the Old Testament (Vol. 1, p. 38). Hendrickson.

I agree with the fathers, most today go with pluralis majestatis, but that is a fiction forced upon those who do not believe scripture truly is Revelation from God, therefore words cannot convey ideas they consider unknown to its human writers.

You quote Hebrew scholars, so will I D. Fruchtenbaum of Ariel Ministries:

Since Elohim created the universe and the earth, R. A. Torrey continues the argument that the Elohim is plural, which includes the Father, Son and Holy Spirit in creation. He states the following in relation to Elohim, which adds further information to chapter 2 of this book and implies the Holy Spirit, as well as the Father and Son in creation, was Elohim:



Why did the Hebrews, with their unquestionable and intense monotheism, use a plural name for God? This was the question that puzzled the Hebrew grammarians and lexicographers of the past, and the best explanation that they could arrive at was the plural of God here used was ‘the pluralis majestatis,’ that is, the plural of majesty. But this explanation is entirely inadequate. To say nothing of the fact that the pluralis majestatis in the Old Testament is a figure of very doubtful occurrence—I have not been able to find any place in the Old Testament where it is clear that the pluralis majestatis is used—but in addition to that, even if it were true that the pluralis majestatis does occur in the Old Testament, there is another explanation for the use of a plural name for God that is far nearer at hand and far more adequate and satisfactory, and that is, that the Hebrew inspired writers used a plural name for God, in spite of their intense monotheism, because there is a plurality of person in the one Godhead.1034

1034 R. A. Torrey, The Holy Spirit (New York: Revell, 1927), 21–22.

Fruchtenbaum, D. A. G. (2010). Foreword. In Discovering the Mystery of the Unity of God: A Theological Study on the Plurality and Tri-unity of God in the Hebrew Scriptures (pp. 338–339). Ariel Ministries.

As for progressive revelation, I was objecting to the abuse of it, for example:

Second, the principle of progressive revelation also means that biblical words will change in their meaning as the understanding of God’s people deepens. Each new revelation meant a deeper understanding of some aspect of divine truth. Thus, we must not assume that a biblical word will have only one meaning which transcends the division between the Old and the New Testaments.

Two errors are commonly made in this regard. Some read the vagueness of the Old Testament into the New Testament and fail to appreciate the final clarity of the New Testament. They state that the meaning of Sheol in the Old Testament determines the meaning of Hades in the New Testament. Thus there is no further or deeper meaning in the New Testament. Once one discovers the meaning of the Old Testament meaning of the concept of Sheol, this is to be transported in its entirety into the New Testament with no deletions or additions.-Morey, R. A. (1984). Death and the afterlife (p. 23). Bethany House.

That is error, the meaning of Sheol is the NT meaning of Hades. It refers to the "unseen realm", not the Greek idea of Hades. Hence both Abraham and the Rich Man are in the "unseen realm", both not necessarily "under the earth." As many adopted Greekized views of Hades, they consider it a "deeper understanding". I do not, I consider it error. God wrote the Bible, it does not contradict. Its "details" are not to be blurred out under the assumption things got "clearer" as time went on.

1 Corinthians 8:1 Now as touching things offered unto idols, we know that we all have knowledge. Knowledge puffeth up, but charity edifieth.

1 Corinthians 13:2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.
3 And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing.
4 Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up,

 

[gordon777]

I have a mission for the forums.

my mission is to spread the triune god is a false God to the world.

Do you know why?

Because Jesus says God is one is the most important commandment.

The most important commandment is the core teaching of Christianity.

The doctrine of the Apostles is their afflictions in Christ, yours is something else, another doctrine.

Galatians 1:9 As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

2 John 1:10 If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:

2 John 1:11 For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.

 

[grace2]

Here is the false and the true doctrine, which do you agree to:

2 Timothy 3:7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.
8 Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith.
9 But they shall proceed no further: for their folly shall be manifest unto all men, as their's also was.
10 But thou hast fully known my doctrine, manner of life, purpose, faith, longsuffering, charity, patience,
11 Persecutions, afflictions, which came unto me at Antioch, at Iconium, at Lystra; what persecutions I endured: but out of them all the Lord delivered me.
12 Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.

It depends on how you read it.

So many believers read the Bible in so many ways.

If you are a triune god believer or Jesus is God believer, I don't believe I can agree with many of your readings.

 

[gordon777]

I have a mission for the forums.

my mission is to spread the triune god is a false God to the world.

Do you know why?

Because Jesus says God is one is the most important commandment.

The most important commandment is the core teaching of Christianity.

The teaching of Christianity is what Jesus did, having no life, and the Apostles, not your ideas, it is not scripture at all. ( or you could consent to the doctrine according to godliness.


1 Timothy 6:3 If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness;
4 He is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings,
5 Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself.

 

[gordon777]

It depends on how you read it.

So many believers read the Bible in so many ways.

If you are a triune god believer or Jesus is God believer, I don't believe I can agree with many of your readings.

If you cant agree to be of the same mind and judgement, then you must have a different mind and judgement, a separated divided one.


1 Corinthians 1:10 Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.
11 For it hath been declared unto me of you, my brethren, by them which are of the house of Chloe, that there are contentions among you.
12 Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ.
13 Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?

Jude 1:19 These be they who separate themselves, sensual, having not the Spirit.

 

[Free]

The church comes to us, why would you go to it, that is advice that is not biblical.

You do know that the church is the gathering of believers, that Christians have done this since the very beginning, yes?

Heb 10:25 not neglecting to meet together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another, and all the more as you see the Day drawing near. (ESV)

Anyone who doesn't go to church, who doesn't gather with believers to use their gifts for the benefits of others, participate in the Lord's Supper, and who isn't living in that community to which we are called, is living in sin.

Everything, it is the deceit that is happening right this moment.

By you? Who?

 

[Free]

I have a mission for the forums.

my mission is to spread the triune god is a false God to the world.

Do you know why?

Because Jesus says God is one is the most important commandment.

The most important commandment is the core teaching of Christianity.

But you don't even understand the greatest commandment. I and others have given the meaning of it, yet you refuse to address any rebuttals to your position.

I don't twist around to fit the scripture to fit man-made doctrines.

Yes, you do, as is evidenced by your taking verses out of context and ignoring the meaning of the words that are used.

 

[grace2]

The teaching of Christianity is what Jesus did, having no life, and the Apostles, not your ideas, it is not scripture at all. ( or you could consent to the doctrine according to godliness.

My faith is not my idea.

Please don't falsely testify about my faith.

Jesus was sent to us to teach us about God's kingdom and how to love God and love one another.

And He taught His apostles everything about the gospel for His God, the Father.

Jesus says He is the Teacher and not to let anyone call you a Teacher.

 

[gordon777]

You do know that the church is the gathering of believers, that Christians have done this since the very beginning, yes?

Heb 10:25 not neglecting to meet together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another, and all the more as you see the Day drawing near. (ESV)

Anyone who doesn't go to church, who doesn't gather with believers to use their gifts for the benefits of others, participate in the Lord's Supper, and who isn't living in that community to which we are called, is living in sin.


By you? Who?

Any church that has one teacher/ a pastor/priest, is break0ng the following scripture you quoted.

How can people exhort one another, by hearing only one doing the exhorting/teaching.


Hebrews 10:25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.