The Theology of Self Examination, testing to see whether one is "in the faith"

[Alfred Persson]

No, I am right. In that specific context it is a compound unity, but it is not always a compound unity and does not automatically refer to one. What I have said comes from Dr. Michael Brown who is a Jewish Christian and his doctorate is in the Semitic languages. He is a relevant expert.

Don't care how modern scholarship understands it. They don't consider the context of the Triune God. I think their hermeneutics is flawed, they interpret a priori the "Holy Trinity" was unknown in the OT. Its a bias I don't share.

They see revelation as "progressive", therefore the NT "corrects" OT revelation in many areas. I don't agree, to me the Bible never contradicts itself. Revelation is not "progressive" where new changes old, it "reveals more of the scene" as time goes on.

 

[grace2]

Okay, so what about it? What do you think it proves?

Since you don't know the core teaching of Christianity which most churches are, you will not achieve perfection.

Because you already failed to respect Jesus' own word.

this is not up for debate.

You asked, I gave it to you.

good day, friend.

 

[Free]

Don't care how modern scholarship understands it. They don't consider the context of the Triune God. I think their hermeneutics is flawed, they interpret a priori the "Holy Trinity" was unknown in the OT. Its a bias I don't share.

The whole point Dr. Brown is addressing is the triune God, refuting Jewish scholars that say God is an absolute unity. You're just biased to your own opinion, which is significantly worse. Ignoring the experts and going your own way is a sure sign of pride, especially with such a silly remark as "they don't consider the context of the Triune God." Of course they do. The language means what it means and you are absolutely in no place to say the experts are wrong or judge their thinking on the matter.

 

[Free]

Since you don't know the core teaching of Christianity which most churches are, you will not achieve perfection.

Be very careful. This is close to violating the ToS. Any implying that a person who doesn't believe as you isn't saved is a violation of the ToS.

Because you already failed to respect Jesus' own word.

this is not up for debate.

No, it isn't up for debate. What you don't seem to understand is that language matters. The word choice and grammar in the Hebrew and Greek matter, and they aren't always captured well in English. Anyone who knows more than one language knows that is the case--there are always difficulties, since languages often translate directly.

You asked, I gave it to you.

But you didn't answer my question. I was asking a simple question as to what you think it means, because I don't want to presume. That is how discussions work, at least for people who actually want to discuss things and come to a knowledge of the truth.

But since you won't answer, I will presume, because every anti-Trinitarian I've debated uses Deut 6:4 and its quotes in the NT to "prove" that God is only one person. However, as has been pointed out, the Hebrew word used for "one" in Deut 6:4 is 'echad, and it simply means "one." The Greek equivalent is heis, which is in the verse you gave. It can refer to the concept of a compound unity--one bunch of grapes; "and they shall become one flesh" (Gen 2:24)--but not necessarily. What it never refers to is an absolute unity, that God is only one person, that is what yachid means, and yachid is never used of God in the Bible. Ever.

What Deut 6:4, and its quotes in the NT, mean is that there is only one God. Again, it is a statement of monotheism only, and does not tell us anything about the actual nature of God.

 

[grace2]

Be very careful. This is close to violating the ToS. Any implying that a person who doesn't believe as you isn't saved is a violation of the ToS.

I did not say you are not saved.

I am repeating what Jesus says and you guys correcting Him.

Correcting Him will not go well with you.

You claim to believe in Him.

 

[Alfred Persson]

The whole point Dr. Brown is addressing is the triune God, refuting Jewish scholars that say God is an absolute unity. You're just biased to your own opinion, which is significantly worse. Ignoring the experts and going your own way is a sure sign of pride, especially with such a silly remark as "they don't consider the context of the Triune God." Of course they do. The language means what it means and you are absolutely in no place to say the experts are wrong or judge their thinking on the matter.

That is wrong. I am the place for myself, to decide what I believe. I will judged by God according to my conscience, according to my works.

I consider the Bible the Word of God.

Its revelation is equal, not progressive. To illustrate the difference: Items in a room are progressively revealed to everyone, but the items themselves never changed. What was in the room never changed. The only thing that changed, is what everyone knew.

20 knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation,
21 for prophecy never came by the will of man, but holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit.
(2 Pet. 1:20-2:1 NKJ)

That is NOT how many consider "revelation progressive". They replace "old" revelation with new, or rather their ideas of what is "new".

I reject that.

The Holy Trinity is in the Bible fully revealed in Genesis 1:26. Scholars with their theory of progressive revelation don't agree, and consider my position "unhistorical", but I don't care. God does not change, therefore there was no "progression" (which implies human development of ideas), there was only God's revelation of what is true (which never changes, and implies everything is a revelation of what already exists).

 

[Free]

I did not say you are not saved.

I know, but you're getting close to implying that those who disagree with you worship a different God than the God of the Bible, which is the same as implying that they aren't saved. I'm just asking you to be careful and stay within the ToS.

I am repeating what Jesus says and you guys correcting Him.

Correcting Him will not go well with you.

If you follow what we're saying, you'll notice that we are not at all correcting Jesus, we are agreeing with him and correcting you. Again, word choice, meaning, and grammar matter, as they do in any discussion. If we are to have a correct understanding of what the Bible says, especially when it speaks of God, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, we must do proper study so we know as precisely as possible what is being said.

Again, in Mark 12:29-30, Jesus is quoting from Deut 6:4-5, and the meanings of the words matter, as they always do. Jesus is not saying, just as Deut 6:4 is not saying, that God is a single person, an absolute unity, because the meaning of the word "one" in the Shema rules that out. It simply cannot mean that. It is a statement of monotheism only, that God is the only true God and so is the only one to be worshiped.

You claim to believe in Him.

See, this is getting very close to implying that I don't believe in him and am not saved.

 

[Free]

That is wrong. I am the place for myself, to decide what I believe. I will judged by God according to my conscience, according to my works.

No, you're not in the place to decide for yourself what the meanings of words are. That is actually a thoroughly worldly, progressive (in the negative, left-wing sense) approach to language.

I consider the Bible the Word of God.

That's good. So do the vast majority of theologians and Bible experts, such as Dr. Michael Brown.

Its revelation is equal, not progressive. To illustrate the difference: Items in a room are progressively revealed to everyone, but the items themselves never changed. What was in the room never changed. The only thing that changed, is what everyone knew.

20 knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation,
21 for prophecy never came by the will of man, but holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit.
(2 Pet. 1:20-2:1 NKJ)

That is NOT how many consider "revelation progressive". They replace "old" revelation with new, or rather their ideas of what is "new".

I reject that.

The Holy Trinity is in the Bible fully revealed in Genesis 1:26. Scholars with their theory of progressive revelation don't agree, and consider my position "unhistorical", but I don't care. God does not change, therefore there was no "progression" (which implies human development of ideas), there was only God's revelation of what is true (which never changes, and implies everything is a revelation of what already exists).

This undermines your whole position. If "God does not change" and "there was only God's revelation of what is true," then 'echad means what it means, and what it means is simply "one." It can refer to a compound unity, but only if the context shows that that is the case. It does not always refer to a compound unity, as these verses show:

Gen 2:21 So the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon the man, and while he slept took one of his ribs and closed up its place with flesh. (ESV)

How many ribs?

Gen 10:25 To Eber were born two sons: the name of the one was Peleg, for in his days the earth was divided, and his brother's name was Joktan. (ESV)

How many sons were named Peleg?

Gen 42:13 And they said, “We, your servants, are twelve brothers, the sons of one man in the land of Canaan, and behold, the youngest is this day with our father, and one is no more.” (ESV)

How many men fathered the twelve brothers? How many are no more?

Given that 'echad is used in the OT 968 times, there are numerous additional examples I could give that show it is also used to simply mean one and does not refer to a compound unity.

It also seems that you may not understand just what progressive revelation refers to. But that is another discussion.

 

[grace2]

I know, but you're getting close to implying that those who disagree with you worship a different God than the God of the Bible, which is the same as implying that they aren't saved. I'm just asking you to be careful and stay within the ToS.

I am only repeating what the Bible says.

 

[Free]

I am only repeating what the Bible says.

Yes, but you're presuming that your idea of God is correct.

 

[grace2]

Yes, but you're presuming that your idea of God is correct.

I am not presuming anything. I am only quoting what the Bible says.

You are the ones who are presuming.

 

[Free]

I am not presuming anything. I am only quoting what the Bible says.

You are the ones who are presuming.

You have yet to show that you actually understand anything you've quoted from the Bible. You have completely ignored all the arguments provided and simply repeat your opinion. This strongly suggests that you have never actually done any meaningful study about God and the Trinity but only believe what you've been told (by the Watch Tower?).

 

[Tenchi]

That is why I am a "Cessationist."

This was an...unusual conclusion to a post the title of which was about examining oneself to see whether or not one is in the faith. When I'm discipling guys who are wondering how they can be truly certain they are saved, we don't end up talking about Cessationism. Instead, I take them to those places in Scripture that describe life in the Spirit, that delineate what the work of the Holy Spirit is in a born-again person. And then, having considered these verses, I encourage them to examine their lives for evidence of the Spirit at work in them. There is no better way, I believe, than this to properly test whether or not one is actually in the faith. Here's a portion of a lesson I give to folks in my New Believers course about the Person and work of the Holy Spirit:

Quick facts:

- Called the Comforter or Helper (“Paraklete” in Greek) – Jn. 14:16; the Spirit of Christ – Ro. 8:9; the Spirit of Grace – He. 10:29; Spirit of the Lord – 2 Cor. 3:17, 18.

- The third Person of the Trinity. (Matt. 28:19; Ac. 5:3, 4; 1 Cor. 2:10, 11)

- He is not a force, or divine spiritual energy, but a distinct personal entity who may grieved (Eph. 4:30), who teaches and reminds (John 14:26; 1 Cor. 2:13), who speaks (Ac. 8:29; 13:2), who makes decisions (Ac. 15:28), who can be lied to (Ac. 5:3, 4), who has a mind (Ro. 8:26, 27), and so on.

Common Questions:

1.) What is the role of the Holy Spirit in the life of the Christian?

- He imparts spiritual life by dwelling within every believer. (Jn. 7:39; Ac. 2:3, 4; Ro. 8:8-11; 1 Cor. 6:19, 20; Tit. 3:5, 6)

- He convicts of sin. (Jn. 16:8; Rev. 2-3)

- He illuminates our minds and hearts to God's truth. (Lu. 12:12; Jn. 14:26; 16:13; 1 Cor. 2:10-16)

- He comforts and helps. (Jn. 14:16; 2 Cor. 1:3-5)

- He enables the believer's obedience. (Ro. 8:13; 15:13, 19; Eph. 3:16; Phil. 2:13; Phil. 4:13)

- He produces in the believer the character of Christ. (Ga. 5:22, 23; Eph. 5:9; 2 Cor. 3:18)

- He is the “down payment” or “guarantee” of a believer's future spiritual and eternal inheritance. (Eph. 1:13, 14)

The work of the Holy Spirit can often be confused with the believer's fleshly response to the commands of God given to them in His word. Encountering God's commands, believers set about in their own power and will to produce for God the life of the Spirit. And, of course, they fail. Like begets like. A dog begets a dog, a cat begets a cat, and we can only beget more of ourselves. Only God begets godliness, which He does in us by His Spirit. But it's important to be able to distinguish what is of the Spirit and what is just a fleshly, human attempt to produce the life and effects of his work in a person. I find making these distinctions badly confuses believers who are, generally, encouraged to think anything they want to say is of the Spirit is - so long as it has the appearance, at least, of godliness.

There's a pretty simple way to distinguish the power of the Spirit at work in you from your own fleshly effort to be godly. When the Spirit is fueling your life and change, you will go from strength to strength rather than collapse after a season of spiritual effort into exhaustion and compromise. The Spirit's power is inexhaustible, you see. Our power is not. Also, as the Spirit works to transform us, we come to know more and more in our daily experience of God. But when we strive and strain in the flesh for God, we expand only our knowledge of ourselves, of our capacities, our limits.

Anyway, this all ignores the matter of Cessationism but is, I think, much more practically helpful to believers.

 

[grace2]

You have yet to show that you actually understand anything you've quoted from the Bible. You have completely ignored all the arguments provided and simply repeat your opinion. This strongly suggests that you have never actually done any meaningful study about God and the Trinity but only believe what you've been told (by the Watch Tower?).

I have been reading the Bible both OT and NT repeatedly.

My faith is not according to any man-made churches.

My reasonings are all contextual according to the Bible Both OT and NT.

On the other hand, trin churches are full of man-made doctrines.

 

[gordon777]

Given that 'echad is used in the OT 968 times, there are numerous additional examples I could give that show it is also used to simply mean one and does not refer to a compound unity.

It also seems that you may not understand just what progressive revelation refers to. But that is another discussion.

Do you think knowing how many times something is in scripture, means one Has understanding of God inside of them ?

The poor of the flock trust in the Lord, that is understanding God, if it is not, aim your revelations my way, and see if they hold any good purpose, or they are only false signs and wonders.

 

[gordon777]

This was an...unusual conclusion to a post the title of which was about examining oneself to see whether or not one is in the faith. When I'm discipling guys who are wondering how they can be truly certain they are saved, we don't end up talking about Cessationism. Instead, I take them to those places in Scripture that describe life in the Spirit, that delineate what the work of the Holy Spirit is in a born-again person. And then, having considered these verses, I encourage them to examine their lives for evidence of the Spirit at work in them. There is no better way, I believe, than this to properly test whether or not one is actually in the faith. Here's a portion of a lesson I give to folks in my New Believers course about the Person and work of the Holy Spirit:

Quick facts:

- Called the Comforter or Helper (“Paraklete” in Greek) – Jn. 14:16; the Spirit of Christ – Ro. 8:9; the Spirit of Grace – He. 10:29; Spirit of the Lord – 2 Cor. 3:17, 18.

- The third Person of the Trinity. (Matt. 28:19; Ac. 5:3, 4; 1 Cor. 2:10, 11)

- He is not a force, or divine spiritual energy, but a distinct personal entity who may grieved (Eph. 4:30), who teaches and reminds (John 14:26; 1 Cor. 2:13), who speaks (Ac. 8:29; 13:2), who makes decisions (Ac. 15:28), who can be lied to (Ac. 5:3, 4), who has a mind (Ro. 8:26, 27), and so on.

Common Questions:

1.) What is the role of the Holy Spirit in the life of the Christian?

- He imparts spiritual life by dwelling within every believer. (Jn. 7:39; Ac. 2:3, 4; Ro. 8:8-11; 1 Cor. 6:19, 20; Tit. 3:5, 6)

- He convicts of sin. (Jn. 16:8; Rev. 2-3)

- He illuminates our minds and hearts to God's truth. (Lu. 12:12; Jn. 14:26; 16:13; 1 Cor. 2:10-16)

- He comforts and helps. (Jn. 14:16; 2 Cor. 1:3-5)

- He enables the believer's obedience. (Ro. 8:13; 15:13, 19; Eph. 3:16; Phil. 2:13; Phil. 4:13)

- He produces in the believer the character of Christ. (Ga. 5:22, 23; Eph. 5:9; 2 Cor. 3:18)

- He is the “down payment” or “guarantee” of a believer's future spiritual and eternal inheritance. (Eph. 1:13, 14)

The work of the Holy Spirit can often be confused with the believer's fleshly response to the commands of God given to them in His word. Encountering God's commands, believers set about in their own power and will to produce for God the life of the Spirit. And, of course, they fail. Like begets like. A dog begets a dog, a cat begets a cat, and we can only beget more of ourselves. Only God begets godliness, which He does in us by His Spirit. But it's important to be able to distinguish what is of the Spirit and what is just a fleshly, human attempt to produce the life and effects of his work in a person. I find making these distinctions badly confuses believers who are, generally, encouraged to think anything they want to say is of the Spirit is - so long as it has the appearance, at least, of godliness.

There's a pretty simple way to distinguish the power of the Spirit at work in you from your own fleshly effort to be godly. When the Spirit is fueling your life and change, you will go from strength to strength rather than collapse after a season of spiritual effort into exhaustion and compromise. The Spirit's power is inexhaustible, you see. Our power is not. Also, as the Spirit works to transform us, we come to know more and more in our daily experience of God. But when we strive and strain in the flesh for God, we expand only our knowledge of ourselves, of our capacities, our limits.

Anyway, this all ignores the matter of Cessationism but is, I think, much more practically helpful to believers.

A perfect example of knowledge. the wisdom of this world that coms to nothing.

All the knowledge and mysteries of God, all the signs and wonders, anyone can have, only means and proves one singular thing, they have no charity in them, it is not possible.

If that is not true, aim your knowledge my way, until it either succeeds, or flops.

 

[gordon777]

I have been reading the Bible both OT and NT repeatedly.

My faith is not according to any man-made churches.

My reasonings are all contextual according to the Bible Both OT and NT.

On the other hand, trin churches are full of man-made doctrines.

You cant possibly have any reasonings, they are in Christ alone, and HIs Apostles, did enough following in the same steps, to know, no other reasonings exist.

 

[Free]

Do you think knowing how many times something is in scripture, means one Has understanding of God inside of them ?

The poor of the flock trust in the Lord, that is understanding God, if it is not, aim your revelations my way, and see if they hold any good purpose, or they are only false signs and wonders.

This has nothing to do with anything in this discussion, as you clearly missed my point.

 

[grace2]

You cant possibly have any reasonings, they are in Christ alone, and HIs Apostles, did enough following in the same steps, to know, no other reasonings exist.

I have been quoting everything and everyone that harmonizes with God and Jesus' teachings and the whole context of the Bible.

 

[gordon777]

This has nothing to do with anything in this discussion, as you clearly missed my point.

Here is my point for you:

Matthew 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

2 Thessalonians 2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,