The theology of "soul sleep" any truth?

[TRUTH over TRADITION]

Tot, So then ALL who have ever died are "sleeping" today? And no one is "in heaven"? We all "go to heaven" or "go to judgement" at His return? Do I have that right?

Not everyone Pizzaguy. Jesus no longer "sleeps in death".

Additionally, I believe the scriptures support the notion that Jesus returned for an elect group of sanctified ones that had been sealed with God's Holy Spirit (the 144,000/ those who took part in the 1st resurrection some say) nearly 2000 years ago and they were gifted with a Heavenly inheritance and have been reigning with Jesus. As for us, (the Great Multitude of Revelation), no such promise of an heavenly inheritance was made. The gift to all the rest of mankind was a reprieve from the wages of sin, death, so that we might receive eternal life in the post resurrection age under the reign og the Kingdom of God.

 

[TRUTH over TRADITION]

You go ahead brother and try and understand what the writer of Luke "implies".

We should all try to understand what the Bible writers/writings mean so we can get the right message my friend. THere is no shame in seeking understanding as we pursue truth and knowledge.

I believe what Jesus said.

So you believe what Jesus is said to have discussed in Luke 16 was an actual event and not a parable; why?

I believe Jesus, when He said ; God is the God of the living.

Do you believe His words on this matter or have you perhaps lifted His words from context to support your particular stance on the afterlife? Again, if we look to Luke 20, Jesus tells us exactly what He meant by the phrase 'God of the living.'

Jesus taught the Pharisee's that the poor Lazarus was blessed and the greedy rich man was not, contrary to their opinion.

Why would Jesus teach them waht you said above? I believe the answer can be found in the verses I posted from earlier in Luke 16 as well as Matthew 21 and Matthew 8:12. In the context of Jesus' interactions with the Pharissees, the afterlife was not the issue. The issue was the Kingdom of God and their perception of their place in it because they believed they were intitled as Abraham's seed.

 

[Maedchen]

[MENTION=45243]TRUTH over TRADITION[/MENTION] :

Thank you very much for explaining your view of John 11.

Can I ask you something else? I have to, and I hope that it doesn't make you upset.
You know, dear Truth over Tradition, I have read several posts of you throughout the year. And always it seemed to me as if I was sitting in a Kingdom Hall or studying my Watchtower for the next Ministry School. The last posts in this thread seem strongly to confirm this notion.

I know that you wrote before in this thread, that JWs do get some things wrong. But this was also a very common and trained answer that I learned to reply to the householder in my witnessing service. It is said in order to find common ground with non-JWs. We admitted to have been wrong in the past in unimportant issues, and also stated that the "light will become brighter" as God reveals more to the anointed.

Look, as a shunned JW, no one of my former brothers or sisters will ever listen to me again. But you seem to compile every single teaching that I learned there. The 144,000, the great multitude that will inherit the earth, the unconsciousness of the dead, man being (not having) a soul, on other threads about the name of God (Jehovah), the translation of John 1:1, and more.
In addition, you write under your name that you are not (!) a Christian, but you quote Jesus' words. That reminds me of how I identified myself as JW, that is not belonging to the "apostates of Christianity".

If you would be a JW, you would surely not visit this site, as it is forbidden to make friends outside of the organization.
So may I kindly ask you, where you learned all these arguments? Is there a group outside JWs who teach that?
Or are you doing field ministry on this site, which would of course forbid you to reply to me, as I am shunned and "handed over to Satan" from them?

Again, that is a question referring to my own cult-history. In no way that is an accusation. Please don't get that wrong.
Your posts simply remind me of the days when I rejected Jesus as the one mediator between God and men, and saw the Governing Body in that place instead. That was wrong!

I hope that you don't mind my question. I just want to know the answer for my peace of mind.
Maedchen

 

[TRUTH over TRADITION]

I hope that you don't mind my question. I just want to know the answer for my peace of mind. Maedchen

I do not mind the questions Maedchen, I gotten it before. They best explanation of may beliefs can be found here: http://www.christianforums.net/showthread.php?t=36275&p=546986&viewfull=1#post546986

 

[TRUTH over TRADITION]

So may I kindly ask you, where you learned all these arguments? Is there a group outside JWs who teach that?

My understanding of scripture had varying influences. The most powerful one I'd say has been my own desire to know more and be able to say in my heart that I have truly studied myself approved. I'm a person that likes challenges, even if those challenges challenge my faith, and in the course of taking on challenges I have learned a great deal that has shifted be from a devout Missionary Baptist to a member of the Church of Christ, to a partial (semi)preterist that espouses some of what JW's and SDA's teach.
I happen to belief that I MUST be able to support from scripture all beliefs I have and I try to refuse and stand against that which I see as contrary to what is written. I've found that many of the most popular doctrines have very little scriptural backing and that the average, no most believers is not well studied enough to know what the Bible actually does promote (kinda sad).

 

[Maedchen]

[MENTION=45243]TRUTH over TRADITION[/MENTION] :

Dear brother (as I dare to say after reading your kind answer),

thank you. I looked at the link to your statement of belief. And I want to tell you here that I have deepest respect for the diligence with which you are chasing the truth.
Thank you so very much for answering. I almost feared that I may had betrayed an undercover publisher, as there are some of them around. Thank you for not scolding my directness.

Only one question still remains. In your linked thread you wrote :
"Above all that, I side with virtually all of Christendom in proclaming my faith that I BELIEVE THAT JESUS OF NAZARETH IS THE SON OF THE LIVING GOD, the author and finisher of our faith, and the means by which we ALL have the hope of eternal life!!"

Why then, dear brother, do you publicly renounce to be a Christian? Everything you wrote there was telling me that you don't look down on believers with different interpretations of verses. You are definitely not one who would declare me as apostate simply because I left the organization. So why do you write under your screen name " Christian: No" ?
Couldn't that hurt Jesus, whom you obviously love?
I would very much like to understand you.

Thank you for being kind.
Maedchen

 

[Brother Mike]

Did he really? Wasn't this Jesus referencing Psalms 82 where The Father was standing in the "gathering of gods?" This chapter may not be speaking about human beings at all.

Key is Maybe............. Truth is he was because God calls us the Children of God. We are thoes, Jesus called them that and we are no different in nature than the religious leaders. It's religion that won't say man is like God created in the image of God or a real child of God.

That's not what we read in scripture. In scripture we are told there's no awareness in death. Consider Ecclesiastes 9:5 and Ecclesiastes 9:10. We do not keep our awareness, according the scriptures the dead know NOTHING.

I gave the scripture that the bad spirit goes down and the good up, I know that does not tell us they are awake, but it does not tell them we are asleep. Having no part of anything under the sun means just that, all life on the planet stops, it does not indicate that spirits need to sleep though or we go into some soul sleep. To die is to be with the lord and we are not fast asleep when we get there.

 

[JLB]

Do you believe His words on this matter or have you perhaps lifted His words from context to support your particular stance on the afterlife? Again, if we look to Luke 20, Jesus tells us exactly what He meant by the phrase 'God of the living.'

I actually used His words to confirm what He said in Luke 16.

 

[reba]

closed for review reopened

Is it really that hard to be respectful ....

 

[Chopper]

Is it really that hard to be respectful ....

Hi folks and especially Reba....Thank you for stepping in, Reba, with your control. For all those who are posting. I have learned a lot of information on my original thread. Thank you so much for your thoughts. I'm sorry that this subject drew so much hostility. My spirit is always grieved when folk can't discuss a topic without getting grumpy.I love you guys and respect you all. My threads that I post are meant to give me Scriptural insight that I really need. I don't post things just for the fun of it. So, please, please, for the rest of this thread and in the future, can we all conduct ourselves with holy dignity realizing that our Lord is aware of our discussons and lets try to remember Galatians 2:20. "I am crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me." If Christ lives in me then He lives in you. Because He lives in you, I'm going to treat you with great honor because I'm really replying to the Christ in you.

Thank you again for all your great points.

 

[TOG]

Paul speaking said not all shall sleep (Be dead) but be changed in a twinkle of an eye. Mean those alive on earth will be changes instantly into new bodies. The "DEAD" in Christ Not asleep shall be changed with their new bodies meeting Jesus with those that are left on earth alive.

As long as we are only discussing what happens at the exact time of death, things are pretty simple. Either we lose all consciousness or we go straight to our eternal home. But when you bring eschatology into it, things become much more complicated. Regarding our state immediately after death, there are two possibilities:

1. We sleep
2. We don't sleep

Regarding the rapture and Christ's return, there are also two possibilities:

1. The rapture and the second coming are two separate events
2. The rapture and the second coming are the same event

Putting those together gives us four possibilities:

1. Soul sleep + Separate rapture
2. No soul sleep + Separate rapture
3. Soul sleep + No separate rapture
4. No soul sleep + No separate rapture

Numbers 2 and 3 are by far the most common theories, so I'll leave the others for now and just look at those two.

2. No soul sleep + Separate rapture. According to this belief, a saved person who dies will go directly before God, who will tell him "Well done, thou good and faithful servant" and usher him into Heaven. He will stay there until the rapture, at which time he will return to earth, be reunited with his (transformed) body and resurrected from the grave. He will then go back to Heaven where he will stay until Christ returns. When that happens, he will go back to earth again and be re-reunited with his body and re-resurrected from the grave in what the Bible calls "the first resurrection" (Rev. 20:5). He will then go back to Heaven where God will again say to him "Well done, thou good and faithful servant" and usher him back into Heaven where he will spend the rest of eternity.
​

3. Soul sleep + No separate rapture. - According to this theory, a saved person who dies becomes totally unaware of his surroundings and "sleeps" until Christ returns. At that time he is awakened from his sleep, reunited with his (transformed) body and resurrected from the grave in the first resurrection. He goes before God who tells him "Well done, thou good and faithful servant" and ushers him into His kingdom, where he will spend the rest of eternity.
​

Now tell me honestly. Which of those two scenarios makes more sense? The constant traveling back and forth between Heaven and earth with multiple resurrections is one of the main reasons I no longer believe that we go directly to Heaven when we die and that the rapture and Christ's second coming are the same event.

The TOG
​

 

[reba]

A couple thoughts...

Could it be when a saint dies he is present with the Lord ... those who are alive at His return are 'raptured'

1Th_4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

 

[JLB]

Jesus taught us in Luke 16 about the two different places within the heart of the earth, that souls went after death.

We learned:

That soul and spirit live on after death.

That the soul and spirit is the place of memory and intellect.

That soul and spirit is the place of emotion.

That soul and spirit can communicate without the human body.

That soul and spirit have the ability to see with eyes.

That soul and spirit have the ability to hears with ears.

That soul and spirit can experience pain and torment.

That soul and spirit can recognize authority, as he requested of Abraham that he would "send him" to his family with a message.

That soul and spirit can receive comfort as they live on after the death of the body.

These are a few of the things that we can learn from what Jesus taught us in Luke 16.

Now lets talk about the liberty that people of God's kingdom have after death.

Moses and Elijah -

1 Now after six days Jesus took Peter, James, and John his brother, led them up on a high mountain by themselves; 2 and He was transfigured before them. His face shone like the sun, and His clothes became as white as the light. 3 And behold, Moses and Elijah appeared to them, talking with Him. 4 Then Peter answered and said to Jesus, "Lord, it is good for us to be here; if You wish, let us make here three tabernacles: one for You, one for Moses, and one for Elijah." 5 While he was still speaking, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them; and suddenly a voice came out of the cloud, saying, "This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. Hear Him!" Matthew 17:1-5

Moses and Elijah had freedom and liberty to appear to them. I believe the Lord wanted them there to share things with His Apostles to strengthen their faith and confidence in Who He is.

Moses and Elijah were recognized, though they were not in the body of flesh.

Moses and Elijah could communicate with them even though they were not in the flesh.

Moses had died.

Elijah was taken alive like Enoch.

Both could communicate with the disciples.

Both were not asleep in the ground.


JLB

 

[TOG]

Both were not asleep in the ground.

If you had come to my house at around 3 AM last night, you would have found me awake. Does that prove that I don't sleep? No. I was awake because I woke up to go to the bathroom. When I had finished, I went back to sleep. The fact that Moses and Elijah were "awake" on the Mount of Transfiguration doesn't prove that the didn't sleep or that they're not asleep now. It only proves that they were "awake" for a short time on the mountain.

The fact is that there is not a single verse in the Bible that proves one way or the other whether we sleep or not after death. We each have to reach our own conclusions based on the various things the Bible says about death, some of which seems to support soul sleep and some of which doesn't support it. We have to go with the interpretation that makes the most sense to us in light of all that the Bible says. Like I said before, the idea that we sleep until Jesus returns is what makes most sense to me.

The TOG
​

 

[Brother Mike]

Now tell me honestly. Which of those two scenarios makes more sense? The constant traveling back and forth between Heaven and earth with multiple resurrections is one of the main reasons I no longer believe that we go directly to Heaven when we die and that the rapture and Christ's second coming are the same event.

TOG What does a rapture of any kind have to do with Soul sleep? Both Pre-Post Trib belief's believe that at the Church (Rapture- Harpazo) Believers will receive their resurrected bodies back, sown corruptible and made incorruptible. Paul tells us this is a heavenly body, not a earthly one.

Paul said.

Php 1:23 For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better:

Paul was trying to make a choice if He should go (die) or stay a bit longer to instruct. In Timothy Paul writes It's time I offer myself which indicates Paul was going to turn himself over to some authority to be crucified. What ever the case, Paul said to die is gain and to be with the Lord. Not asleep, and having to wait but to be with the Lord.

2Ti_4:6 For I am now ready to be offered, and the time of my departure is at hand.

Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
Rev 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

Here we have those that have died and are waiting under the altar in Heaven. They are screaming for vengeance so most likely not Christians but those that died in the Lord as Christians would not be asking for vengeance. Stephan asked the Lord to forgive them as they stoned him, Jesus also asked them to be forgiven. They are alert and waiting for the Lord to wrap up everything.

The caught up with resurrection is a resurrection of our old bodies and we all get new bodies.

1Co 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

The only thing that gets resurrected and brought back is the body. That is the flesh house you live in to navigate Earth. If your Post trib this even occurs after the 6,7th seal and 7th Trumpet those that remain alive on earth through Tribulation are caught up with those that have died in Christ and all meet with him.

If your Pre-Trib, then the Lord takes those that have confessed him Lord before tribulation and the 1st Resurrection would included all that belong to the Lord and will rein as Kings and Priest with him. Both positions have to wait.

Eph_3:15 Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named,

Jesus is over all our families in Heaven waiting on us, and all our brothers and sisters in Christ that are still on earth. We have family in both places, and folks are not soul sleeping in Heaven.

Soul sleep is a False Doctrine that attempts to remove Hell out of the equation. Hell is where those that have Rejected the Lord go. The Lord Jesus is not judging the Earth now, or man. Judgment comes at the end. If a person does not accept the Lord Jesus a default judgment is entered. A man is appointed once to die then judgment.

Mar 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Damned means to judge against and sentence. (katakrinō)

Nobody gets judged to get a nice soul sleep, with the judgment comes punishment.

Mike.

 

[TOG]

A couple thoughts...

Could it be when a saint dies he is present with the Lord ... those who are alive at His return are 'raptured'

1Th_4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

The verse you quote starts with the word "then". That implies that something else happened before what the verse talks about.

For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so, through Jesus, God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep. For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. (I Thess. 4:14-16 ESV)
​

This speaks of the dead in Christ being resurrected in the future. If they are currently with God, and if there will be a rapture, then they must leave Him to rejoin their bodies and then go back to God for the duration of the tribulation and then go back to earth again at Christ's return. At least, I don't see any other possibility. If someone feels I'm misrepresenting this view, then I would like to ask them to please explain what they think will happen.

The TOG
​

 

[reba]

As corny as this is going to sound.... If God wants it that way then it will take no time to do it...

I should not have interred the discussion because any way He does what ever is fine with me... please just pretend i was not here

 

[TOG]

TOG What does a rapture of any kind have to do with Soul sleep?

It has everything to do with it. The resurrection of the dead in Christ at the rapture, if such a rapture will actually take place (which I believe it won't), is part of the process we go through after we die. Like I said before, if we only look at the first part of that process - the actual moment of death - then things are simple, but if we look at the whole process, things become more complicated and what we thought was a simple and obvious belief becomes complicated and totally unbelievable. Don't just look at the beginning, but the whole process.

1. A saved person dies
2. He goes to Heaven
3. He comes back from Heaven at the Rapture
4. He goes back to Heaven for the duration of the tribulation
5. He comes back to earth at Christ's second coming
6. He gos back to Heaven to spend the rest of eternity

That's three trips to Heaven (once when he dies, once at the rapture and once after the second coming) and two trips back to earth (once for the rapture and once for the second coming). You can't just ignore the convoluted mess these commonly held beliefs create when put together, and pretend that there is no problem. If you don't believe in either soul sleep or a separate rapture, then things get a little simpler.

1. A saved person dies
2. He goes to Heaven
3. He comes back to earth for the second coming
4. He goes back to Heaven to spend the rest of eternity

That theory still has people going to Heaven twice. It seems to me that one trip should suffice.

If your Post trib this even occurs after the 6,7th seal and 7th Trumpet those that remain alive on earth through Tribulation are caught up with those that have died in Christ and all meet with him.

If your Pre-Trib, then the Lord takes those that have confessed him Lord before tribulation and the 1st Resurrection would included all that belong to the Lord and will rein as Kings and Priest with him. Both positions have to wait.

I believe that the so-called "rapture" and the second coming of Christ are one and the same event. There is no waiting period between the two. The only "waiting period" is from the time we die until Christ returns. The term "soul sleep" is not a good term to describe our condition during this time. Sleep is a state of reduced consciousness. Even during sleep, we have some sense of time passing and are aware of our surroundings to some extent (that's why alarm clocks work). I believe that after we die we become totally unconscious. Have you ever lost consciousness entirely? Not everyone has. Have you noticed that a mother's calm voice saying "Bobby, it's time to wake up and go to school" is enough to wake a sleeping child, but all the noise at a boxing match isn't enough to wake up a boxer who has been knocked out? That's the difference between reduced consciousness (i.e. sleep) and a total lack of consciousness. I have experienced the latter. I have epilepsy. When I have a seizure, I become totally unconscious and unaware of my surroundings. Nothing could wake me up until the seizure has passed. I also lose all sense of time. Even during sleep we have some sense of time, but during unconsciousness, all sense of time disappears. If you move me during a seizure, it will seem to me that I had been transported instantly from one place to the other. (I have actually had that happen, and my recommendation is that you don't move a person who is having an epileptic seizure unless he's in danger where he is). When we die, we will lose all sense of time, and it will seem to us that the second coming of Christ comes the instant we die, even if thousands of years have passed for everyone else.

Soul sleep is a False Doctrine that attempts to remove Hell out of the equation.

What does Hell have to do with soul sleep? If the court's schedule is packed and your trial won't start until next month, does that mean you won't go to prison? No. It just means your judgement will be delayed.

Nobody gets judged to get a nice soul sleep

Nobody is saying they do. Only that the judgement doesn't take place the instant they die (although the outcome has been decided at that point).

The TOG
​

 

[JLB]

The fact is that there is not a single verse in the Bible that proves one way or the other whether we sleep or not after death.

The fact is Luke 16 and Matthew 17, prove beyond any doubt that soul sleep is a doctrine of man and is false to the core.

The fact that you discredit what Jesus says and teaches is frightening.

JLB

 

[Brother Mike]

That's three trips to Heaven (once when he dies, once at the rapture and once after the second coming) and two trips back to earth (once for the rapture and once for the second coming). You can't just ignore the convoluted mess these commonly held beliefs create when put together, and pretend that there is no problem. If you don't believe in either soul sleep or a separate rapture, then things get a little simpler.

You base this on the number of trips are ....... EDITED
Have you ever made two trips to any place and found out you could have gotten it all done in just one?

You can't base a belief because you think it would be far to many trips.

Besides it would be....

Pre-Trib.

Caught up, with our old bodies. Those in Heaven would meet us and the dead with Jesus. Does not say he touches down on earth just caught up so we have to assume Jesus stops at the clouds after dragging everyone from heaven then back to heaven again then we come back with him at the end and the new city on earth, not heaven.

This new body would be as Jesus is, so zipping from one place to another would be no issue.

Post-Trib.

would cut this down by one trip. Still we will be as Jesus is and getting from A to B is not a issue. We are not slaves so we go where we want anyway and serve him.

Finding the most economical way is the answer here.

If you move me during a seizure, it will seem to me that I had been transported instantly from one place to the other. (I have actually had that happen, and my recommendation is that you don't move a person who is having an epileptic seizure unless he's in danger where he is). When we die, we will lose all sense of time, and it will seem to us that the second coming of Christ comes the instant we die, even if thousands of years have passed for everyone else.

I hope your condition improves, I had a step brother with the same condition and it's a scary thing to just go out and wake up somewhere else with no idea how much time passed or what even happened. I understand that to be pretty unnerving.

However, you still have dreams, you can still have conscience thoughts while unconscious you just can't wake up right away. You still have brain activity even unconscious you just have no awareness of the outside world. Since your a spirit with a soul, if the body dies you leave the body, once your out of the confines of that your very much aware of what is going on around you as your soul no longer had the confines of the brain to deal with.

If we were just bodies then you have a good point but we just don't have bodies, we are spirits in a body. The souls under the alter were very much aware, Abraham in Hell fixed by a gulf was very much aware. Jesus preached to those in Hell and brought them out were very much aware, they did not sleep through his preaching.

I would rethink this...

Mike.