The theology of "soul sleep" any truth?

[reba]

The last paragraph of post #79 states a pretty clear meaning of what TOG calls "soul sleep"

First of all, I don't like the term "soul sleep", but in a nutshell, this is what I believe - When we die we become totally unconscious of our surroundings and lose all sense of the passage of time. We remain in this unconscious state until either Christ returns at the end of the tribulation (if we're saved) or until the end of his millennial reign (if we're not saved). At that time we are resurrected and receive our reward or punishment, as the case may be. Since we have lost all sense of time, it will seem to us that we go instantly from our death beds to our eternal destinations.The TOG

 

[reba]

Watching Dad die puts the idea of 'soul sleep' out past left field...

A godly man we saw the cloudiness leave his eyes they became bright blue again although he did not 'set up' you could see him lift off the pillow.. A glow to his face He was goin home... He wasnt looking at dirt ...

just my thoughts

 

[JLB]

First of all, I don't like the term "soul sleep", but in a nutshell, this is what I believe - When we die we become totally unconscious of our surroundings and lose all sense of the passage of time. We remain in this unconscious state until either Christ returns at the end of the tribulation (if we're saved) or until the end of his millennial reign (if we're not saved). At that time we are resurrected and receive our reward or punishment, as the case may be. Since we have lost all sense of time, it will seem to us that we go instantly from our death beds to our eternal destinations.

19 "There was a certain rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and fared sumptuously every day. 20 But there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, full of sores, who was laid at his gate, 21 desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table. Moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. 22 So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham's bosom. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. 24 Then he cried and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.' 25 But Abraham said, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented. 26 And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.' 27 Then he said, 'I beg you therefore, father, that you would send him to my father's house, 28 for I have five brothers, that he may testify to them, lest they also come to this place of torment.' Luke 16:19-28

How does what you believe, compare to what Jesus taught here in these passages of scripture.

No matter what you want to call what Jesus taught here, no matter what label you choose to put on this passage of scripture, how does what Jesus teaches here compare to what you believe?

I just don't understand how you could come to the conclusion you do, after Jesus taught this.

What phrase or sentence in what He taught here leads you to believe what you do?

Do you believe that Jesus taught a complete lie, in order to teach us a certain truth?

Just curious?


JLB

 

[TRUTH over TRADITION]

If you had come to my house at around 3 AM last night, you would have found me awake. Does that prove that I don't sleep? No. I was awake because I woke up to go to the bathroom. When I had finished, I went back to sleep. The fact that Moses and Elijah were "awake" on the Mount of Transfiguration doesn't prove that the didn't sleep or that they're not asleep now. It only proves that they were "awake" for a short time on the mountain. The fact is that there is not a single verse in the Bible that proves one way or the other whether we sleep or not after death. We each have to reach our own conclusions based on the various things the Bible says about death, some of which seems to support soul sleep and some of which doesn't support it. We have to go with the interpretation that makes the most sense to us in light of all that the Bible says. Like I said before, the idea that we sleep until Jesus returns is what makes most sense to me. The TOG

Applause!!
Great points

 

[JLB]

If you had come to my house at around 3 AM last night, you would have found me awake. Does that prove that I don't sleep? No. I was awake because I woke up to go to the bathroom. When I had finished, I went back to sleep. The fact that Moses and Elijah were "awake" on the Mount of Transfiguration doesn't prove that the didn't sleep or that they're not asleep now. It only proves that they were "awake" for a short time on the mountain. The fact is that there is not a single verse in the Bible that proves one way or the other whether we sleep or not after death. We each have to reach our own conclusions based on the various things the Bible says about death, some of which seems to support soul sleep and some of which doesn't support it. We have to go with the interpretation that makes the most sense to us in light of all that the Bible says. Like I said before, the idea that we sleep until Jesus returns is what makes most sense to me. The TOG

Applause!!
Great points

Please point out the great point you see in this paragraph, so that we may see it as well.

Please show us the scripture that teaches us that people who die sleep and then wake up and go back to sleep.


Thanks, JLB

 

[Brother Mike]

has been totally unconscious since their deaths. Just because you can point to a maximum of 3 people, doesn't prove anything about what happens to billions of others.

So the Logic is that Jesus among a group of people says .............. Whosoever believes in me shall not perish does not prove the statement he made applied to anyone else?

Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
Rev 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

These people that were slain are sleep talking? Right? proves nothing for the rest of anyone else, is that the logic?

Eph_3:15 Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named,

We have family in Heaven and in Earth............ they must all be sleeping in Heaven except the ones that were slain, they are talking in the sleep right?

TOG, your logic is seriously flawed because if 3 examples are not good enough by the Word given to men then nobody gets saved but that which heard.

Mike.

 

[reba]

Lets try and remember we are not all alike.... if we have kids or siblings we understand they can love the Lord ( parents) and have some thoughts ideas different then ours.... Over my years here this portion of the ToS has been a good, very good read for me...

2.4: Respect where people are in their spiritual walk, and respect all others in general. Respect where others are in their spiritual walk, do not disrupt the flow of discussion or act in a way that affects others negatively including when debating doctrinal issues, in the defense of the Christian faith, and in offering unwelcome spiritual advice.


He is our Manna our Shepard and knows how to feed His flock

 

[TRUTH over TRADITION]

the whole process.

1. A person is born, given the breath of life by God and becomes a living soul (Genesis 2:7)
2. They live their lives
3. The person dies and the breath God gave them returns to Him (Ecclesiastes 12:7)
4. The dead person "sleeps" the sleep of death in Sheol, the grave, where they have no persecption because they are not alive! (2 Chronicles 9:31, Job 14:10, Psalms 146:4, Ecclesiastes 9:5,10)
5. The resurrection occurs and the person is brought back to live (Job 14:12-15, Psalms 49:11-15, John 5:28-29)
6. The person is judged for the life they lived. (Hebrews 9:27, Ecclesiastes 12:13-14, 2 Corinthians 5:10, Revelation 20:12-13)
7. The person will either be rewarded with immortality or destruction (Romans 2:5-6)
- Immortality/Everlasting Life (Romans 2:7, Romans 6:23, James 1:12)
- Destruction (2 Thessalonians 1:9, Psalms 145:20, Revelation 20:14-15)
8. The saints of the Lord shall rule with the Lord over the nations in the resurrection. (Psalms 49:14, 2 Timothy 2:12, Revelation 2:26-27, Revelation 21:24-22:5)

 

[TRUTH over TRADITION]

How does what you believe, compare to what Jesus taught here in these passages of scripture. No matter what you want to call what Jesus taught here, no matter what label you choose to put on this passage of scripture, how does what Jesus teaches here compare to what you believe? I just don't understand how you could come to the conclusion you do, after Jesus taught this. What phrase or sentence in what He taught here leads you to believe what you do? Do you believe that Jesus taught a complete lie, in order to teach us a certain truth? Just curious?

JLB, the problem is that you are isolating and lifting the Luke 16 passage from the greater context of scripture. Doing that gives the passage a different meaning than the meaning it has when viewed in the context of what Jesus kept repeating to the Jewish leaders of the day. WHat people are trying to point out is that you cannot rightly divide this passage by lifting it from its greater context and isolating it as if it is a stand alone teaching. If you look at its surrounding context you will see that death and the afterlife are not subjects Jesus or those to whom He was addressing were speaking about. WHy not let the context define you you interpret the passage's meaning as opposed to ignoring the context and seeing this as a stand alone text?

The fact is Luke 16 and Matthew 17, prove beyond any doubt that soul sleep is a doctrine of man and is false to the core. The fact that you discredit what Jesus says and teaches is frightening.

As has been pointed out by various posters, no FACT in the texts you have used proves your position to be the correct one. It seems that you ignore the actual facts when it comes to Luke 16 being a parable surrounded by other parables and because of that MAY not being a literal story. Additionally, the Transfiguration gives no details about the existence of Moses oe Elijah beyond the event itself. You make assumptions, as we all do from time to time, but you then run with those as if the assumptions and the evidence and facts are one and the same.

 

[Brother Mike]

As has been pointed out by various posters, no FACT in the texts you have used proves your position to be the correct one. It seems that you ignore the actual facts when it comes to Luke 16 being a parable surrounded by other parables and because of that MAY not being a literal story.

You know....... You had my respect (Still do a bit.) This post that "May not be a literal Story" is just not good enough for you. Normally I see that you need pinpoint accuracy in scripture, comparing one with another before drawing conclusions....... Here you dropped the ball from you normal high standards......

If it's just a Parable then this occurs...................

1) It's the only parable that Jesus gave the name of a place the events occurred, the only time Jesus gave actual names that participated in those events.

This in itself is not a parable because all other parables had no pace given but a example place to tell the Parable as the place was not important and no parable used real names.
You should have picked this up right away, So then I get concerned ...... Is Truth really over Tradition because your not being pinpoint accurate here with comparing why this can't possibly be a parable because it's not even close to the format of all the other parables.

I certainly did not expect this out of you.

2) If its a Parable then Jesus committed perjury and is a liar.

Luk 16:25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
Luk 16:26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.

According to Jesus, Abraham said this. If this is just a parable and Abraham is not actually in hell or saying this, then Jesus must have lied and commuted perjury. Jesus just makes things up and puts words in other people's mouth.

No, this is a real and literal event, Jesus would never say Abraham said something when Abraham did not say something. Jesus respected Abraham, and was no liar or told fairy tales.

All other parables had generic places, and generic people refereed to by the title of position such as son, ruler, not specific names.

TRUTH over TRADITION I am disappointed because agree with you or not you always compared until I find something you don't want to believe.......... then you change your standards or word comparison. I found the chink in your armor and to be honest with you Brother, it's just not the high standard I expected from you. Even when I did not agree with you, I saw how you compared the word and came to the conclusion you did. In that was respect and we just don't agree.

This case however you came way short. We found a doctrine to trip you up.

Mike.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

10 He died for us so that, whether we are awake (still in the body) or asleep (out of the body), we may live together with him." (1 Thessalonians 5:10 NASB parenthesis mine)

 

[JLB]

JLB, the problem is that you are isolating and lifting the Luke 16 passage from the greater context of scripture. Doing that gives the passage a different meaning

Different than a person who is cursed goes to hell and person who is blessed goes to heaven?

Please explain the difference you mean.

If you look at its surrounding context you will see that death and the afterlife are not subjects Jesus

Being Blessed because you are rich and being cursed because you are not, is the context and the mindset that Jesus addressed with His view of the afterlife that was in its present state of existence when Jesus spoke theses words.

14 Now the Pharisees, who were lovers of money, also heard all these things, and they derided Him.

15 And He said to them, "You are those who justify yourselves before men, but God knows your hearts. For what is highly esteemed among men is an abomination in the sight of God.
16 The law and the prophets were until John. Since that time the kingdom of God has been preached, and everyone is pressing into it. 17 And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass away than for one tittle of the law to fail.

No parable here.

18 Whoever divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery; and whoever marries her who is divorced from her husband commits adultery.

No parable here.


19 "There was a certain rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and fared sumptuously every day. 20 But there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, full of sores, who was laid at his gate, 21 desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table. Moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. 22 So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham's bosom. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

No parable.

The Pharisee's interrupted Jesus as he was teaching His disciples.

This teaching was for His Disciples [us] as well as the Pharisee's who were present.

Their mindset being that because they were children of Abraham they were blessed with material wealth.

Jesus, taught them and us that just because a person is rich, does not necessarily mean they/we are blessed.

The word Blessed as associated with the Abraham covenant, and carries the meaning of financial wealth, health as well as salvation.

The Pharisee's wrongly assumed that by their wealth, they were blessed, ie: destined for eternal life with God.

A good study of the Abraham Covenant, will help you to understand these things.


JLB

 

[Sparkey]

I've never taken a firm opinion on this subject but I have read and enjoyed the opinions and thoughts of other Saints of God. This is one of those subjects where there is no definitive reply except by a person who is currently in the position and office of Prophet (my thought). We are doing well when we talk about these things, knowing that it is not a matter crucial to our salvation or the salvation of our brothers and sisters, no matter what side of the fence they find themselves on.

Having said that, and what brings my voice to the thread, is an observation that I have considered. On another site, and in a different conversation, your Moderator here has heard some speculation on the topic. What one person posted (paraphrased) quoted the Book of Job as one source. The poster seemed to be knowledgeable and reasoned, "There is some risk involved when we hang a doctrine, teaching, or belief - on things that others have said, because we are not able to know definitely if what the Bible is saying is a seal of approval or if it is a report of one man's belief."

I'll remind you though, that I read this years ago and that's the gist of what another person said, not a quote but my impression of the meaning he tried to convey. He referenced Job, who may have been in discussion with his three friends? I'm unsure the context. One moment, and I will do a search and try to fetch for us, that Scripture for our examination here...

7:7 O remember that my life is wind: mine eye shall no more see good.

7:8 The eye of him that hath seen me shall see me no more: thine eyes are upon me, and I am not. 7:9 As the cloud is consumed and vanisheth away: so he that goeth down to the grave shall come up no more. 7:10 He shall return no more to his house, neither shall his place know him any more.

7:11 Therefore I will not refrain my mouth; I will speak in the anguish of my spirit; I will complain in the bitterness of my soul. 7:12 Am I a sea, or a whale, that thou settest a watch over me? 7:13 When I say, My bed shall comfort me, my couch shall ease my complaint; 7:14 Then thou scarest me with dreams, and terrifiest me through visions: 7:15 So that my soul chooseth strangling, and death rather than my life.

7:16 I loathe it; I would not live alway: let me alone; for my days are vanity.

7:17 What is man, that thou shouldest magnify him? and that thou shouldest set thine heart upon him? 7:18 And that thou shouldest visit him every morning, and try him every moment? 7:19 How long wilt thou not depart from me, nor let me alone till I swallow down my spittle?

7:20 I have sinned; what shall I do unto thee, O thou preserver of men? why hast thou set me as a mark against thee, so that I am a burden to myself? 7:21 And why dost thou not pardon my transgression, and take away mine iniquity? for now shall I sleep in the dust; and thou shalt seek me in the morning, but I shall not be.

That one might not quite be it. Job clearly speaks of "sleeping in the dust" but it could be that he was doing that because the softness of "dust" was the only thing that gave relief to the discomfort of the boils? Again, I've not studied this and will gladly accept correction should it turn out that my quick analysis is wrong. Looking for a better quote...

14:1 Man that is born of a woman is of few days, and full of trouble. 14:2 He cometh forth like a flower, and is cut down: he fleeth also as a shadow, and continueth not.

14:3 And dost thou open thine eyes upon such an one, and bringest me into judgment with thee? 14:4 Who can bring a clean thing out of an unclean? not one. 14:5 Seeing his days are determined, the number of his months are with thee, thou hast appointed his bounds that he cannot pass; 14:6 Turn from him, that he may rest, till he shall accomplish, as an hireling, his day.

14:7 For there is hope of a tree, if it be cut down, that it will sprout again, and that the tender branch thereof will not cease. 14:8 Though the root thereof wax old in the earth, and the stock thereof die in the ground; 14:9 Yet through the scent of water it will bud, and bring forth boughs like a plant.

14:10 But man dieth, and wasteth away: yea, man giveth up the ghost, and where is he? 14:11 As the waters fail from the sea, and the flood decayeth and drieth up: 14:12 So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep.

14:13 Oh that thou wouldest hide me in the grave, that thou wouldest keep me secret, until thy wrath be past, that thou wouldest appoint me a set time, and remember me!​

14:14 If a man die, shall he live again? all the days of my appointed time will I wait, till my change come. 14:15 Thou shalt call, and I will answer thee: thou wilt have a desire to the work of thine hands.

Pretty sure that you guys can take it from here. Again, my assertion is that I personally do not have a firm opinion on what exactly happens and in what order after I die. Frankly? Beyond my trust that God will take care of me, that Jesus will speak for me as His own? I'm in the dark here; having not crossed that boundary I can not tell of my experience. Yes, we may examine Scripture with this mystery in mind and I do love to do that and can tell that I'm not alone in this also.

But, and again, I am not a Prophet and I have no new Word from God on the matter. Just what I "feel" in my spirit as I enquire before Him. That tells me that I too will be judged and that it is my portion today to work out my salvation with fear and trembling and that, quite frankly, is a struggle for me. My comfort comes from the fact that we do not wrestle one against another, and instead against forces and powers greater than us. What may we do? We may call upon the Highest Authority, having found access to the Throne of Grace and to our Father in Heaven through Christ, our Lord.

Blessings to you in Christ and it is my prayer that the Lord (if He is willing) will give one of us (or more than one of us, all of us) such wisdom and understanding that our answers can no longer be gainsay'd or resisted. Of course that expectation comes with the provision, "At the right time (in Your time, not mine)... we are assured that such things shall be revealed..."

 

[Brother Mike]

Job 14:10 And a man dieth, and becometh weak, And man expireth, and where is he?
Job 14:11 Waters have gone away from a sea, And a river becometh waste and dry.
Job 14:12 And man hath lain down, and riseth not, Till the wearing out of the heavens they awake not, Nor are roused from their sleep.

Job gives us that man dies they don't come back. Their body? are not roused from their sleep. Man die once then judgement, they don't come back (well, unless God gets involved but we get the point)

Job 14:13 O that in Sheol Thou wouldest conceal me, Hide me till the turning of Thine anger, Set for me a limit, and remember me.
Job 14:14 If a man dieth--doth he revive? All days of my warfare I wait, till my change come.

Job gives some insight to Sheol, to be concealed there and hidden from the Lords anger. Job was confused, God was not mad at him but Job did have some insight to things.

Job 17:13 If I wait--Sheol is my house, In darkness I have spread out my couch.

Job fully believed he was soon to die. He says that Sheol will be his house and in that house he will just spread out his couch and wait.

Nothing indicating soul sleep.

Job 17:16 To the parts of Sheol ye go down, If together on the dust we may rest.

Sheol was down............ Abraham was down............ There must have been rest there for those that served God and coincides with Jesus that between God's people and Hell there was a gulf.

Psa 116:3 Compassed me have cords of death, And straits of Sheol have found me, Distress and sorrow I find.


you can't find distress and sorrow if your asleep.

Pro 15:24 A path of life is on high for the wise, To turn aside from Sheol beneath.

Once again Sheol is down........... a path of life avoids the bad part.

Eze 31:16 From the sound of his fall I have caused nations to shake, In My causing him to go down to sheol, With those going down to the pit, And comforted in the earth--the lower part, are all trees of Eden, The choice and the good of Lebanon, All drinking waters.

two things here......... Sheol had two regions......... One with water and good things. It was still down in the pit, but different and comfort. This is the place Job spoke of.

Pro 9:18 But he knoweth not that the dead are there; and that her guests are in the depths of hell.

No indication of people going to sleep there, but as guest. This came after following the women into hell. If all sleep then there would not be separate places in Hell itself and not one scripture indicates you sleep there but all sleep in the dust of the earth, their bodies dead.

Mike.





Job 14:13 O that in Sheol Thou wouldest conceal me, Hide me till the turning of Thine anger, Set for me a limit, and remember me.

No need to hide if your asleep.

 

[TRUTH over TRADITION]

It's the only parable that Jesus gave the name of a place the events occurred, the only time Jesus gave actual names that participated in those events.

But what does this mean? Is there scripture that says when proper names are used the idea that the storyteller is using an allegory must be thrown out? I've heard people say that because Jesus us a name, Lazarus, a Hebrew word which means God has helped to illustrate a point that that means this was an actual event. But I fail to see how that logical leap holds water or has scriptural backing.

If its a Parable then Jesus committed perjury and is a liar. Luk 16:25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented. Luk 16:26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence. According to Jesus, Abraham said this. If this is just a parable and Abraham is not actually in hell or saying this, then Jesus must have lied and commuted perjury. Jesus just makes things up and puts words in other people's mouth. No, this is a real and literal event, Jesus would never say Abraham said something when Abraham did not say something. Jesus respected Abraham, and was no liar or told fairy tales.

Seriously? I don't know how to respond to this BM. My question would be this; Is every author that uses metaphors or parables to illustrate a truth a liar or purgeror if they use people's names in their stories?

All other parables had generic places, and generic people refereed to by the title of position such as son, ruler, not specific names.

You mean generic names or titles like "a certain rich man"? I'm not trying to be funny here, If you draw the conclusion you have drawn be consistant all the way through. The rich man remained nameless in this story. What is the reason for that in light of the greater context? Additionally if this was a retelling of an actual event, what had the rich man done to be placed in torment and what had Lazarus done to be found worthy of the place in Abraham's bosom?

--------

What reasons do we have to belief that Luke 16 was a retelling of a literal event? Jesus never said it was, so why assume it was? Based on the surrounding context and the nature of the interactions Jesus consistantly had with the Jewish leaders of his day, I am persuaded that the Rich man & Lazarus story is an allegory, but, I can be wrong in my conclusion. I just need some solid Biblical evidence that would lead me to say that this story could stand alone away from the greater context and the literal stance of events mentioned is the proper understanding before I can see the claim that it is being the correct one.

 

[JLB]

Job 14:10 And a man dieth, and becometh weak, And man expireth, and where is he?
Job 14:11 Waters have gone away from a sea, And a river becometh waste and dry.
Job 14:12 And man hath lain down, and riseth not, Till the wearing out of the heavens they awake not, Nor are roused from their sleep.

Job gives us that man dies they don't come back. Their body? are not roused from their sleep. Man die once then judgement, they don't come back (well, unless God gets involved but we get the point)

Job 14:13 O that in Sheol Thou wouldest conceal me, Hide me till the turning of Thine anger, Set for me a limit, and remember me.
Job 14:14 If a man dieth--doth he revive? All days of my warfare I wait, till my change come.

Job gives some insight to Sheol, to be concealed there and hidden from the Lords anger. Job was confused, God was not mad at him but Job did have some insight to things.

Job 17:13 If I wait--Sheol is my house, In darkness I have spread out my couch.

Job fully believed he was soon to die. He says that Sheol will be his house and in that house he will just spread out his couch and wait.

Nothing indicating soul sleep.

Job 17:16 To the parts of Sheol ye go down, If together on the dust we may rest.

Sheol was down............ Abraham was down............ There must have been rest there for those that served God and coincides with Jesus that between God's people and Hell there was a gulf.

Psa 116:3 Compassed me have cords of death, And straits of Sheol have found me, Distress and sorrow I find.


you can't find distress and sorrow if your asleep.

Pro 15:24 A path of life is on high for the wise, To turn aside from Sheol beneath.

Once again Sheol is down........... a path of life avoids the bad part.

Eze 31:16 From the sound of his fall I have caused nations to shake, In My causing him to go down to sheol, With those going down to the pit, And comforted in the earth--the lower part, are all trees of Eden, The choice and the good of Lebanon, All drinking waters.

two things here......... Sheol had two regions......... One with water and good things. It was still down in the pit, but different and comfort. This is the place Job spoke of.

Pro 9:18 But he knoweth not that the dead are there; and that her guests are in the depths of hell.

No indication of people going to sleep there, but as guest. This came after following the women into hell. If all sleep then there would not be separate places in Hell itself and not one scripture indicates you sleep there but all sleep in the dust of the earth, their bodies dead.

Mike.





Job 14:13 O that in Sheol Thou wouldest conceal me, Hide me till the turning of Thine anger, Set for me a limit, and remember me.

No need to hide if your asleep.

Thank you Brother Mike,

For bringing clarity in this matter, from God's word.


JLB

 

[JLB]

Seriously? I don't know how to respond to this BM. My question would be this; Is every author that uses metaphors or parables to illustrate a truth a liar or purgeror if they use people's names in their stories?

The truth will set you free, brother.

If you know the truth.

 

[Brother Mike]

Seriously? I don't know how to respond to this BM. My question would be this; Is every author that uses metaphors or parables to illustrate a truth a liar or purgeror if they use people's names in their stories?

I am persuaded that the Rich man & Lazarus story is an allegory, but, I can be wrong in my conclusion. I just need some solid Biblical evidence that would lead me to say that this story could stand alone away from the greater context and the literal stance of events mentioned is the proper understanding before I can see the claim that it is being the correct one.

That is the only reason I respond because you said "MAY" That tells me you want to believe one way but possibly see something different. I even bring you up when people get into mass scripture contradictions because you don't. Everything has to be perfect with you and that is what I respect, even If I agree how you read it or not.

What reasons do we have to belief that Luke 16 was a retelling of a literal event? Jesus never said it was, so why assume it was? Based on the surrounding context and the nature of the interactions Jesus consistantly had with the Jewish leaders of his day, I am persuaded that the Rich man & Lazarus story is an allegory, but, I can be wrong in my conclusion.

Here is the issue, are we using Jewish fables here to prove a spiritual truth? I need to discount any knowledge of Jews and focus on scripture upon scripture.

The rich man........ No name given but Abraham was there, and Lazarus was there.

Do this......... Find one other Parable where actual names had been given. Just one.

Jesus claimed Abraham said something. If it's just a parable then Jesus misquoted Abraham.

Luk 16:20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,

In all the Parables Jesus told to help us compare spiritual things, the operation of God, He never once used a proper name. NEVER................

Lazarus would have just been a (Beggar) because that is all we need to know.

Luk 16:1 And he said also unto his disciples, There was a certain rich man, which had a steward; and the same was accused unto him that he had wasted his goods.
Luk 16:2 And he called him, and said unto him, How is it that I hear this of thee? give an account of thy stewardship; for thou mayest be no longer steward.
Luk 16:3 Then the steward said within himself, What shall I do? for my lord taketh away from me the stewardship: I cannot dig; to beg I am ashamed.


In this parable we have a rich man also, and a steward........ No names given, the place is not important. It's like that with all parables.

Then since you compare scriptures you should be asking why Jesus would bother telling us names, why is it important to describe the place "Abraham's Bosom" Why is it important to describe what is in the place?

Why would Jesus say something Abraham said if Abraham did not actually say it?

I certainly don't want people going around and telling others I said things I never said.

Your the study expert, I have seen it time and time again when you post............................... You explain why this is different, why it was important to know about this place called Abraham's Bosom, why do we need to know there was a gulf there, why there was torment on the other side, why there was comfort and why Moses was mentioned.

Ask yourself why at no other Time Jesus mentioned Moses or Abraham it was never a parable.

Additionally if this was a retelling of an actual event, what had the rich man done to be placed in torment and what had Lazarus done to be found worthy of the place in Abraham's bosom?

Do we have other scriptures why one would be worthy of a better position in Hell over the other position in Hell. I just posted some above.... David Called out saying you will not leave my soul in Hell.

compare and ask yourself is Jesus telling a real event, or just making a parable and the place he described is not even real. The real person he used never said what Jesus claimed he said?

Think on that. Your like me, I have to have all things perfectly line up, and this brother does not line up with any other parable. Not even close.

Mike.

 

[Sparkey]

Why would Jesus say something Abraham said if Abraham did not actually say it?

Interesting question. This (my reply) is a tangent. It is off-topic.

Jesus was aware of the "hot-topics" of his day. I can remember once when he spoke with the understanding of what the Sadducees believed about afterlife and resurrection and all that. Did he endorse any one particular belief? Answer for yourselves, those who insist that all understanding is given to all men: "Do demons marry?" Just to help get a jump start for yet another thread: cf. Luke 20:34-36 & Genesis 6:1-2 & Jude 6. But that is another discussion that, I predict, will remain fruitless as far as definitive answers (not just opinions) go.

What about what some call soul-sleep then? Sub-topics (tangents) include: Is that not a parable? and "That's not what God said, that's what the bible says about what Job said," and "Ecclesiastes does not a doctrine make," and no man knows the whole mind of God, as well as "Some things are hidden (for reason)," for which some may assert 1 Cor 2:8 as a basis.

Is it okay to rely on God? Yep! (And everybody said, 'Amen'). Is it okay for servants to be servants; so that even though they are not privy to every detail and understanding of their Master's house, might they not continue to serve? Yep! (And everybody said, 'Amen'). Is it okay for these same servants to desire to know more about his/her Master's bidding? Yep (and everybody said 'Amen'). And is it okay for our Lord to say to us, "I will no longer call you servant, but shall call you friend, because we share the same heart regarding my Father's business?" Can we hope for that day? Yep! We can. And everybody said...

 

[TRUTH over TRADITION]

Their mindset being that because they were children of Abraham they were blessed......

Remember that the Pharissees that Jesus was interacting with were the ones that had the attitude as John declared in Matthew 3:9 that said that they were blessed simply because they were Abraham's decendants and they sat in Moses' seat (Matthew 23:2). It is to these individuals that Jesus said things like:

- Your House is being taken from you (Matthew 23:38)
- The kingdom will be taken from you and given to others (Matthew 21:43)

The idea of being blessed was about way more than material blessings, it was about being heirs to the Kingdom of Heaven. They assumed this as their birth rite and Jesus consistantly tried to correct that false assumption. Paul went on to reemphasize that being an heir had nothing to do with being born as Abraham's decendant but rather had to do with being in Christ (Galations 3:28-29).

Jesus, taught them and us that just because a person is rich, does not necessarily mean they/we are blessed.

Jesus taught them that just because they were of Abraham's seed that that meant nothing unless they obedied the words of Moses and the prophets. Did Jesus talk about shying away from the love of money, of course he did, but in his dealings with the leaders he consistanly warned them that their perception that they were okay because they were Abraham's seed was unwarranted and mistakened.

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All the above is written to say that understanding of the Rich Man & Lararus needs to be approached in light of the overriding theme of the Jews place in the Kingdom.