The threat of Eternal Punishment for accepting the Mark implies less than eternal punishment exists for lesser sins

[Alfred Persson]

Mat 25:46

And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Right, a separate group of souls eternally tormented at level lesser than the eternal torment assigned to those individuals you singled out as the one and only eternally punished group in your OP .
Oversight on your part I'm sure you will say .
So here we have two separate groups being assigned eternal torment of varying intensity .
In complete contradiction to the one and only category specified your OP.
Do I take it then in recalculating that you are going to allege this brand new separate category of the forsaken being assigned eternal punishment of a lesser severity , which you completely failed to mention in your OP by the way, are the final individual group being identified as eternally punished for the specific reason making clear that some will only be punished for a limited time?
Are you sure there are not more groups of the eternally punished . you have likewise failed to mention. in your campaign to minimize the horrors of hell ?
Having already missed this additional group of the eternally forsaken perhaps you should take some more to time to make sure there are no others before replying.

Incorrect. Nothing in Christ's words indicate they are tormented at a lesser level than the wicked. Other texts show the level of punishment is according to works. Therefore, what they eternally receive is according to their works. Some likely are tormented less than others, but they all go off into "eternal punishment (=torment)".

That may sound harsh for Goats who were church goers for a time, but failed to repent. The occurrence of this at Christ's Triumphal entry into Jerusalem with His Holy Angels requires these Goats lived during the reign of the Beast, while he was persecuting the church. Perhaps the goats, by not helping believers when they needed help, led to the death of many.

The Goats are all eternally tormented, Christ said so. BUT the rest of mankind, many of whom never heard of Christ to get saved, are not being judged at this time.

They in fact enter the millennial kingdom of Christ and the Church (Christ's kings and priests) evangelize them for a 1,000 years. Then comes judgment Day, after many of them failed the last global test (Rev. 20:4-10)


I am sure not all the unsaved are eternally tormented. They all die the "second death", the death from which there is no return. But some suffer only for a few seconds, then the unquenchable fire consumes them utterly, and they cease to exist.

But some are eternally tormented, the Bible identifies three of them, the Beast, False Prophet and Satan.

 

[Alfred Persson]

Hey All,
No it doesn't.

Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Find me a lesser penalty for sin.

Keep walking everybody,
May God bless,
Taz

That was unclear. I don't understand your point. Perhaps you will elaborate.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

The promise of Eternal Punishment for worshipping the Beast implies "less than eternal punishment" exists for lesser sins, otherwise the threat has no meaning.

That is your baseless assumption. There is no "lesser sins", all sins are deadly in the eyes of God, no amount of our own righteousness can measure up, the only solution is accepting Jesus as our savior and casting our sins unto him.

The difference about the Beast is that in the Great Tribulation, the mark is the dividing line, every one on earth has to make a choice, you either worship God or worship the Beast, there's no gray area. Throughout history there's always gray area, the absolute dividing line is death, one always has a chance to repent and confess their faith in Jesus, even in their deathbed; with the Beast, though, the mark is the dividing line, your fate is sealed before death, you either choose the Seal of God or the Mark of the Beast.

 

[Free]

In classical Greek kolasis "conveys the notion of punishment for the correction and bettering of the offender. It does not always, however, have this strict meaning in the NT. "-Zodhiates, S. (2000). In The complete word study dictionary: New Testament (electronic ed.). AMG Publishers.

But what exactly is the punishment? Is it physical punishment while in hell or only being in hell, separated from God?

In Mt. 25:46 it refers to eternal torment. However, this judgment concerned unsaved Christians only, the Sheep and Goats in the church.

No such thing as an unsaved Christian. Christians are, by definition, saved. The goats are those who rejected Christ and were never saved, even if they thought they were. What other judgement is there where Christ is on his throne apart from the final judgement of Rev 20:11-15?

They missed the rapture. The Sheep had begun living like Christians, the Goats had not. You know the rest.

What does the supposed rapture have to do with this passage? Where is such a thing even implied?

 

[Consecrated Life]

Incorrect. Nothing in Christ's words indicate they are tormented at a lesser level than the wicked.

Glad to see you admit that it was not Christ , but yourself who foisted such a demonic lie where the torment of eternity , not severity of torment is concerned.
You are making progress .
Well done!

The promise of Eternal Punishment for worshipping the Beast implies "less than eternal punishment" exists for lesser sins, otherwise the threat has no meaning.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

No such thing as an unsaved Christian. Christians are, by definition, saved. The goats are those who rejected Christ and were never saved, even if they thought they were. What other judgement is there where Christ is on his throne apart from the final judgement of Rev 20:11-15?

There're unprofitable Christians, though. They're still saved, but no rewards in the kingdom.

 

[Free]

There're unprofitable Christians, though. They're still saved, but no rewards in the kingdom.

What makes you think the goats in Matt 25:46 are saved? What does the context tell us about the goats?

 

[Alfred Persson]

But what exactly is the punishment? Is it physical punishment while in hell or only being in hell, separated from God?



No such thing as an unsaved Christian. Christians are, by definition, saved. The goats are those who rejected Christ and were never saved, even if they thought they were. What other judgement is there where Christ is on his throne apart from the final judgement of Rev 20:11-15?


What does the supposed rapture have to do with this passage? Where is such a thing even implied?

I agree its physical punishment, communicated to the wicked soul trapped in an abominable resurrection body reeking of corruption, burning in Gehenna like rubbish.

You got me. All Christians are saved. I should have said "unconverted church goers", but it seemed easier to say "Christians".

But context is being ignored by you. The chronology. This judgment is when Christ and His angels appear on earth. That is right after Armageddon. So you ignore that completely.

Christ pointed to "these my brethren", which proves they were seated with Christ judging the Sheep and Goats:

"And the King will answer and say to them,`Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.' (Matt. 25:40 NKJ)

Christians are Christ's brethren:

For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. (Rom. 8:29 NKJ)

The church was raptured before Christ's coming to the earth:

13 But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.
15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.
16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.
17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.
18 Therefore comfort one another with these words. (1 Thess. 4:13-18 NKJ)

But many "unconverted church goers" were left behind. Now they are being judged.

Christ's kings and priests ("these my brethren") were seated with Christ when the judgment of the Sheep and Goats occurs. Judgment starts first with the house of God, and these knew the gospel of Christ, but only some of them (the Sheep) have begun to practice it.

 

[Alfred Persson]

Glad to see you admit that it was not Christ , but yourself who foisted such a demonic lie where the torment of eternity , not severity of torment is concerned.
You are making progress .
Well done!

A "demonic lie"? I cited scripture for proof. Do you believe demons wrote the bible?

 

[Free]

I agree its physical punishment, communicated to the wicked soul trapped in an abominable resurrection body reeking of corruption, burning in Gehenna like rubbish.

But is it only physical punishment or does the punishment also include being sent to hell/the lake of fire or being removed from God's presence?

But context is being ignored by you. The chronology. This judgment is when Christ and His angels appear on earth. That is right after Armageddon. So you ignore that completely.

Christ pointed to "these my brethren", which proves they were seated with Christ judging the Sheep and Goats:

"And the King will answer and say to them,`Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.' (Matt. 25:40 NKJ)

Christians are Christ's brethren:

For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. (Rom. 8:29 NKJ)

Where, exactly, does it say that these believers "were seated with Christ judging the Sheep and Goats"? Where is that in the context? Notice that:

Mat 25:31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne.
Mat 25:32 Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. (ESV)

First, Jesus "will sit on his glorious throne." It is the only throne mentioned in the passage and he is the only one said to be sitting on that throne. Second, "he will separate people one from another . . . the sheep from the goats." The sheep are the believers. So, there are believers of all sorts before him. Those to whom he is referring are those believers who helped the "the least of" the believers, showing the mercy, kindness, and compassion that he showed.

The church was raptured before Christ's coming to the earth:

13 But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.
15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.
16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.
17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.
18 Therefore comfort one another with these words. (1 Thess. 4:13-18 NKJ)

But many "unconverted church goers" were left behind. Now they are being judged.

There are good reasons to believe there is no such thing as "the rapture." In fact, the idea of a rapture has little, if any support; not even in the passage above. Matt 25:31-46 is about "all nations"--it's everyone; it's Rev 20:11-15.

Christ's kings and priests ("these my brethren") were seated with Christ when the judgment of the Sheep and Goats occurs. Judgment starts first with the house of God, and these knew the gospel of Christ, but only some of them (the Sheep) have begun to practice it.

Again, where in Matt 25:31-46 is it stated that there are believers either seated with Jesus on his throne or seated alongside him on their own thrones?

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

What makes you think the goats in Matt 25:46 are saved? What does the context tell us about the goats?

The sheep and goats judgement is the judgement of the NATIONS, not Christians. In that context, Christians are Jesus's "brethren", the "least of these". The verdict depends on how those nations treat God's people. Essentially it's the same as the Abrahamic covenant - "I'll bless those who bless you and I'll curse those who curse you." Beware of the socialist interpretation of this passage, that you can earn salvation by doing philanthropy.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

A "demonic lie"? I cited scripture for proof. Do you believe demons wrote the bible?

Demons cite scripture for proof too, and they know scripture better than anyone.

 

[Free]

The sheep and goats judgement is the judgement of the NATIONS, not Christians. In that context, Christians are Jesus's "brethren", the "least of these". The verdict depends on how those nations treat God's people. Essentially it's the same as the Abrahamic covenant - "I'll bless those who bless you and I'll curse those who curse you." Beware of the socialist interpretation of this passage, that you can earn salvation by doing philanthropy.

So, you're essentially promoting works salvation, at least for some, correct? Why are they saved by works when the NT makes it very clear that salvation is by grace through faith and not by works?

 

[Alfred Persson]

But is it only physical punishment or does the punishment also include being sent to hell/the lake of fire or being removed from God's presence?


Where, exactly, does it say that these believers "were seated with Christ judging the Sheep and Goats"? Where is that in the context? Notice that:

Mat 25:31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne.
Mat 25:32 Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. (ESV)

First, Jesus "will sit on his glorious throne." It is the only throne mentioned in the passage and he is the only one said to be sitting on that throne. Second, "he will separate people one from another . . . the sheep from the goats." The sheep are the believers. So, there are believers of all sorts before him. Those to whom he is referring are those believers who helped the "the least of" the believers, showing the mercy, kindness, and compassion that he showed.


There are good reasons to believe there is no such thing as "the rapture." In fact, the idea of a rapture has little, if any support; not even in the passage above. Matt 25:31-46 is about "all nations"--it's everyone; it's Rev 20:11-15.


Again, where in Matt 25:31-46 is it stated that there are believers either seated with Jesus on his throne or seated alongside him on their own thrones?

Of course those in Gehenna are far removed from God's presence.

If you ignore the scriptures I cite, there is no point to our conversation. I cited the precise text where Christ POINTS to people with Him, and says "these my brethren"

"And the King will answer and say to them,`Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.' (Matt. 25:40 NKJ)

Christians are Christ's brethren:

For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. (Rom. 8:29 NKJ)

I believe in the Rapture. Its clearly taught. You should start a thread on why you don't and we can discuss it there.

Until then, you have a mystery. Who did Christ point to when He said "these my brethren"?

 

[Alfred Persson]

Demons cite scripture for proof too, and they know scripture better than anyone.

I'm not a demon. Christians usually have the grace to say "I don't believe that, and here is why" rather than call those they disagree with "demons".

Are you a Christian?

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

So, you're essentially promoting works salvation, at least for some, correct? Why are they saved by works when the NT makes it very clear that salvation is by grace through faith and not by works?

Quite the opposite, I'm warning you about the interpretation of work-based salvation regarding this passage. Jesus defined His "brethrens" as this: "And He stretched out His hand toward His disciples and said, "Here are My mother and My brothers! For whoever does the will of My Father in heaven is My brother and sister and mother." (Matt. 12:50) Was Jesus promoting work based salvation? He wasn't referring to philanthropists, He was referring to his disciples.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

I'm not a demon. Christians usually have the grace to say "I don't believe that, and here is why" rather than call those they disagree with "demons".

Are you a Christian?

For the record I never called you a demon, I'm not the one who said you were spreading a "demonic lie", please give credit to whom credit is due. My point is, you can cite Scripture to back up any claim, but that doesn't make it right.

 

[Alfred Persson]

For the record I never called you a demon, I'm not the one who said you were spreading a "demonic lie", please give credit to whom credit is due. My point is, you can cite Scripture to back up any claim, but that doesn't make it right.

If the scripture I cited doesn't prove my point, explain why.

Calling scripture interpretation demonic, claiming I am spreading a "demonic lie" isn't Christian if you can't prove your claims:

Let your speech always be with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer each one. (Col. 4:6 NKJ)

 

[Josef]

That was unclear. I don't understand your point. Perhaps you will elaborate.

Hey All,
I apologize for being unclear.

"The promise of Eternal Punishment for worshipping the Beast implies "less than eternal punishment" exists for lesser sins, otherwise the threat has no meaning." Quote from Alfred Persson

Please explain how worshipping the beast, rather than God, is any less than breaking the first commandment?

Keep walking everybody.
May God bless,
Taz

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

If the scripture I cited doesn't prove my point, explain why.

Scripture doesn’t contradict itself, as a house divided against itself cannot stand. When one place suggests the wicked will perish, the other says everlasting punishment, the right attitude is to work out the difference and reconcile the two, otherwise we’re a house divided against itself.