The threat of Eternal Punishment for accepting the Mark implies less than eternal punishment exists for lesser sins

[Free]

Of course those in Gehenna are far removed from God's presence.

That is not what I asked. What I asked was is it only physical punishment or does the punishment also include being sent to hell/the lake of fire (being removed from God's presence)?

If you ignore the scriptures I cite, there is no point to our conversation.

No, there wouldn’t be, if that is what I had done, but I didn’t. Please be honest in your discussions and don’t say someone didn’t address Scripture you cited when they obviously did. I very clearly addressed what you cited by adding context and asking you questions. It’s like you didn’t actually read my post, even though you quoted it.

I cited the precise text where Christ POINTS to people with Him, and says "these my brethren"

"And the King will answer and say to them,`Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.' (Matt. 25:40 NKJ)

Christians are Christ's brethren:



Until then, you have a mystery. Who did Christ point to when He said "these my brethren"?

I have no mystery at all. I quite clearly stated that Jesus was speaking of believers. The issue, which you didn’t address, was that you said I was ignoring context but then added your own idea into the passage. I pointed this out and asked you some questions.

You said that the “brethren,” the believers Jesus spoke to, “were seated with Christ judging the Sheep and the Goats.” So, this was my response:

Where, exactly, does it say that these believers "were seated with Christ judging the Sheep and Goats"? Where is that in the context? Notice that:

Mat 25:31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne.
Mat 25:32 Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. (ESV)

First, Jesus "will sit on his glorious throne." It is the only throne mentioned in the passage and he is the only one said to be sitting on that throne. Second, "he will separate people one from another . . . the sheep from the goats." The sheep are the believers. So, there are believers of all sorts before him. Those to whom he is referring are those believers who helped the "the least of" the believers, showing the mercy, kindness, and compassion that he showed.

 

[Alfred Persson]

Hey All,
I apologize for being unclear.

"The promise of Eternal Punishment for worshipping the Beast implies "less than eternal punishment" exists for lesser sins, otherwise the threat has no meaning." Quote from Alfred Persson

Please explain how worshipping the beast, rather than God, is any less than breaking the first commandment?

Keep walking everybody.
May God bless,
Taz

Tell us, is the elderly Bingo lady who goes to church only to play bingo, never to be saved by Jesus, who otherwise lived a moral life----as deserving of eternal torment as Satan, the False Prophet, and The Beast, Judas, etc?

Answer that please.

My studies of Revelation reveal the worship of the Beast will be "full throated rebellion against Yahweh God,".

It blasphemes the God of Israel by name, and all the worshippers dance in the street blaspheming the God of gods, Lord of Lords, as too weak to defeat Satan and the Beast. Taking the mark of the Beast is declaring oneself an enemy of God and His Son Jesus Christ.

There will be no doubt in their minds that God exists, they declare themselves irreversibly His enemy. For that, eternal torment is clearly warranted, merited.

 

[Alfred Persson]

That is not what I asked. What I asked was is it only physical punishment or does the punishment also include being sent to hell/the lake of fire (being removed from God's presence)?



No, there wouldn’t be, if that is what I had done, but I didn’t. Please be honest in your discussions and don’t say someone didn’t address Scripture you cited when they obviously did. I very clearly addressed what you cited by adding context and asking you questions. It’s like you didn’t actually read my post, even though you quoted it.



I have no mystery at all. I quite clearly stated that Jesus was speaking of believers. The issue, which you didn’t address, was that you said I was ignoring context but then added your own idea into the passage. I pointed this out and asked you some questions.

You said that the “brethren,” the believers Jesus spoke to, “were seated with Christ judging the Sheep and the Goats.” So, this was my response:

Where, exactly, does it say that these believers "were seated with Christ judging the Sheep and Goats"? Where is that in the context? Notice that:

Mat 25:31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne.
Mat 25:32 Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. (ESV)

First, Jesus "will sit on his glorious throne." It is the only throne mentioned in the passage and he is the only one said to be sitting on that throne. Second, "he will separate people one from another . . . the sheep from the goats." The sheep are the believers. So, there are believers of all sorts before him. Those to whom he is referring are those believers who helped the "the least of" the believers, showing the mercy, kindness, and compassion that he showed.

No. Satan doesn't want to be in God's presence, nor do most wicked humans. God is Holy, shames them.
The Wicked Flee the light, they WANT to be far from it.

19 "And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20 "For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. (Jn. 3:19-20 NKJ)

So not being in God's presence is WHAT THEY WANT. Therefore, all the drivel about being denied God's presence is torment to them, is BS.


So was Jesus mistaken when He said "these my brethren", the brethren weren't there?

"And the King will answer and say to them,`Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.' (Matt. 25:40 NKJ)

Jesus EXACTLY identifies a group present while He is speaking as "these my brethren". That is where it EXACTLY is.

You interpret sheep and goats as everyone on earth, I do not because of context. Just as the 10 virgins, and wicked slave, don't represent the earth, only the church, so also here sheep and goats are the wheat and tares in the church. That's why both call Jesus "Lord".

 

[Alfred Persson]

Scripture doesn’t contradict itself, as a house divided against itself cannot stand. When one place suggests the wicked will perish, the other says everlasting punishment, the right attitude is to work out the difference and reconcile the two, otherwise we’re a house divided against itself.

Or, "one size doesn't fit all". Both Eternal Torment (for those who committed eternal sins) and lesser torment (for those who did not commit eternal sins), "torment" according to works....is Justice.

Not a house divided against itself.

Certainly, not "demonic".

Even flawed human justice doesn't treat lawless speeders the same as lawless murderers, putting both to death. No one suggests that is demonic, not treating both as the same. We all realize that is justice, some crimes deserve less punishment than others.

And its not a house divided against itself.

 

[journeymanisnothing]

On what basis can you take one verse from Exodus and make such a claim, especially since Ex 21:6 has nothing to do with judgement?

Hello Free.
It's not on the basis of one verse my friend. It really has to do with how meek and gentle Jesus revealed His Father to sinful mankind and comparing Him to a just God of judgment.

A just God would never treat the innocent as guilty for what the guily did. But..... a just God would endure sin against Himself for the purpose of longsuffering, of showing His mercy toward sinners.

Words interpreted "forever" like olan and aion can and mean different things in different passages. They can pertain to this life of the next.

 

[Consecrated Life]

A "demonic lie"? I cited scripture for proof. Do you believe demons wrote the bible?

The scripture of the Rich Man & Lazarus from Jesus's own mouth encapsulates the only two final estates possible including a complete lack of any implied temporariness juxtaposed to the obvious assured permanency of them both.

It comes as no surprise to me that you have avoided any citation of Jesus Himself from the one passage where He so thoroughly makes clear the permanency of the two diametrically opposed final estates of Lazarus & the Rich Man.

Luk 16:23
And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

Luk 16:24
And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

Luk 16:25
But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.

 

[journeymanisnothing]

I believe in the resurrection of both the righteous and unrighteous. God's love or wrath is communicated to the resurrected through the Bodies they receive:

Yes, but before the resurrection of the body, Gods' love is communicated throught the Holy Spirit we receive. Guiding us, working in us and following His direction.

2 And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, Some to everlasting life, Some to shame and everlasting contempt.
3 Those who are wise shall shine Like the brightness of the firmament, And those who turn many to righteousness Like the stars forever and ever. (Dan. 12:2-3 NKJ)

I believe this is speaking of the 2nd resurrection which is bodily.

For he who sows to his flesh will of the flesh reap corruption, but he who sows to the Spirit will of the Spirit reap everlasting life. (Gal. 6:8 NKJ)

Yes, it's sown first.

 

[Free]

No. Satan doesn't want to be in God's presence, nor do most wicked humans. God is Holy, shames them.
The Wicked Flee the light, they WANT to be far from it.

19 "And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20 "For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. (Jn. 3:19-20 NKJ)

So not being in God's presence is WHAT THEY WANT. Therefore, all the drivel about being denied God's presence is torment to them, is BS.

I'm not sure what you're saying 'no' to. I'm going to rephrase what I'm asking so we don't go down the wrong trail. Is the punishment meted out to unbelievers physical punishment while in hell or only being in hell? Also, I don't know what you mean by "all the drivel about being denied God's presence is torment to them, is BS." First, what does that have to do with the discussion? Second, the use of "BS" should not be in a Christian's mind, never mind written on forums when one has the ability to think before they speak. It's also a violation of the ToS.

So was Jesus mistaken when He said "these my brethren", the brethren weren't there?

Again, it seems like you're not actually reading my posts. Go back to my post #30 and see where I answered that and said there were believers before him. I also repeated that in post #41. It seems that this is a red herring to avoid answering my questions.

"And the King will answer and say to them,`Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.' (Matt. 25:40 NKJ)

Jesus EXACTLY identifies a group present while He is speaking as "these my brethren". That is where it EXACTLY is.

Yes, and that has nothing to do with what I said. Once again, going back to a claim you made, which I repeated in my previous post and you once again ignored:

You said that the “brethren,” the believers Jesus spoke to, “were seated with Christ judging the Sheep and the Goats.” And, this was my response:

Where, exactly, does it say that these believers "were seated with Christ judging the Sheep and Goats"? Where is that in the context? Notice that:

Mat 25:31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne.
Mat 25:32 Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. (ESV)

First, Jesus "will sit on his glorious throne." It is the only throne mentioned in the passage and he is the only one said to be sitting on that throne. Second, "he will separate people one from another . . . the sheep from the goats." The sheep are the believers. So, there are believers of all sorts before him. Those to whom he is referring are those believers who helped the "the least of" the believers, showing the mercy, kindness, and compassion that he showed.
You are adding your own ideas into that passage.

You interpret sheep and goats as everyone on earth, I do not because of context. Just as the 10 virgins, and wicked slave, don't represent the earth, only the church, so also here sheep and goats are the wheat and tares in the church. That's why both call Jesus "Lord".

First, it is everyone on the earth--"all nations" (v. 32). Second, every knee will bow and every tongue confess that Jesus is Lord (Phil 2:10-11), right? Third, what happens immediately after the judgement in Matt 25? Look at verse 46: "And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life" (ESV). What does that mean and when does that happen? It can only mean that it is the final judgement, the great white throne judgement of Rev 20:11-15. The unbelievers go into eternal punishment and believers go into eternal life. That's at the consummation of all things.

There is not a judgement where Jesus separates the sheep and the goats, sending them into eternal life and eternal punishment, and then another, final judgement. The final judgement is to judge all people who have ever lived, just like in Matt 25.

 

[Free]

Hello Free.
It's not on the basis of one verse my friend. It really has to do with how meek and gentle Jesus revealed His Father to sinful mankind and comparing Him to a just God of judgment.

Okay, but the verse you provided had nothing to do with judgment, yet that is what you appealed to when using that verse.

A just God would never treat the innocent as guilty for what the guily did. But..... a just God would endure sin against Himself for the purpose of longsuffering, of showing His mercy toward sinners.

It isn't true that "a just God would endure sin against himself." All sin is against him and that is precisely why those who aren't saved are "children of wrath" (Eph 2:3). Sin demands a penalty, which is death (Rom 6:23), and in order to avoid eternal punishment, that penalty must be paid in order for propitiation to made; and it was paid by our sins being placed on the innocent Christ (Isa 53:5-12; Rom 3:25-26; 5:8-17; 2 Cor 5:21; Heb 2:17; etc.).

A just God must apply the penalty for sin. If God were to let people go without penalty, then God would be unjust. For those who believe, Christ's atoning death pays that penalty. For those who don't believe, eternal punishment in hell is the penalty.

 

[reddogs]

Eternal Punishment for all who worship the Beast, or accept his mark:

9 Then a third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, "If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand,
10 "he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.
11 "And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name." (Rev. 14:9-11 NKJ)


The promise of Eternal Punishment for worshipping the Beast implies "less than eternal punishment" exists for lesser sins, otherwise the threat has no meaning.

If all are eternally punished anyway, regardless whether they worship the beast or not, the threat has no meaning.

Therefore, eternal punishment for all sinners isn't what the Bible teaches.

When “Death and Hades” are cast into the lake of fire” they are destroyed (1 Cor. 15:26), but the Devil, Beast and False Prophet receive eternal torment (Rev. 20:10).

These different fates require the symbolism of a consuming fire that cannot be quenched (Isa. 66:24; Mk. 9:44, 46 48) is not pertinent to the duration of whatever is cast into it; Whatever is cast in can be immediately destroyed or endure for an undetermined period of time. Their lot or destiny, "their part” (3313 μέρος meros, Re. 21:8) of "eternity" in the lake of fire, is “according to their works” (Rev. 20:12), in proportion to their deeds.

They are under the condemnation of sin and will have to face the judgement...

Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

 

[JT4444]

The mark is just a recognition that someone rejects Christ. Since no one can stand on their own merits, without the atonement, the punishment is death and separation from God regardless of which sins are committed.


"For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all" (James 2:10)

Since the worst penalty is eternal separation from God, anyone who doesn't accept Christ will be damned because all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.

 

[journeymanisnothing]

Okay, but the verse you provided had nothing to do with judgment, yet that is what you appealed to when using that verse.

I was appealing to the use of the word "forever" and how it doesn't mean "eternal" when referring to "a persons life in this world." In other words, people will be judged forever (for what we did our whole lives) and the shame of the unforgiven is what causes their torment.
The torment doesn't last forever. The annhilation of the spirit of unforgiven is eternal.

It isn't true that "a just God would endure sin against himself." All sin is against him and that is precisely why those who aren't saved are "children of wrath" (Eph 2:3).

I agree with you here. David said,

"Against thee, thee only have I sinned and done this evil in thy sight....."

He's talking about committing adultery with Bathsheba and having Uriah murdered. Then David says,

"that thou mightest be justified when thou speakest and be clear when thou judgest." Psa.51:4 KJV

Who would believe this man of faith would desire another mans' wife and have him killed to cover up his crime? Uriah fought against Davids' enemies.
Adultery and murder ( or consiracy to commit murder) was punishable by death under Mosaic law.

Sin demands a penalty, which is death (Rom 6:23), and in order to avoid eternal punishment, that penalty must be paid

Sin demands repentance,

But the wisdom that is from above is.....easy to be intreated, Jas.3:17 KJV
Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD Isa.1:18 KJV

In our talks before I'm sure I've mentioned justice demands the life of the one sinning. Throughout the Bible, OT or NT, condemnation is only perscribed for the guilty.

in order for propitiation to made;

Propitiation refers to the covering of the ark beneath the Mercy Seat. The ark where the law was kept-----> underneath the Throne of God. <-----this is why After our High Priest sprinkled His blood on the law. He sat on His Throne.

and it was paid by our sins being placed on the innocent Christ (Isa 53:5-12; Rom 3:25-26; 5:8-17; 2 Cor 5:21; Heb 2:17; etc.).

Instead, Jesus kept His anger back against sinners who deserved death. Read the passages you cited this way.

A just God must apply the penalty for sin. If God were to let people go without penalty, then God would be unjust.

Judgment day is coming for everyone.

For those who believe, Christ's atoning death pays that penalty.

Those who believe see their sins against God clearly, are repentant and ask and receive forgivness.

For those who don't believe, eternal punishment in hell is the penalty.

We've talked and disagreed about this also. It's really ok.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

Or, "one size doesn't fit all". Both Eternal Torment (for those who committed eternal sins) and lesser torment (for those who did not commit eternal sins), "torment" according to works....is Justice.

Not a house divided against itself.

There is no "lesser sins" and "greater sins", from God's perspective we're all sinners. If we're left in the dark without Jesus, we're no better than Hitler or Stalin.

 

[Alfred Persson]

The scripture of the Rich Man & Lazarus from Jesus's own mouth encapsulates the only two final estates possible including a complete lack of any implied temporariness juxtaposed to the obvious assured permanency of them both.

It comes as no surprise to me that you have avoided any citation of Jesus Himself from the one passage where He so thoroughly makes clear the permanency of the two diametrically opposed final estates of Lazarus & the Rich Man.

Luk 16:23
And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

Luk 16:24
And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

Luk 16:25
But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.

If the Rich man was irredeemable, an enemy of God, why did Abraham and other saints WANT to aid him, but couldn't because of a great gulf.

Abraham and fellows would NOT want to work against God, so you must be wrong about the Rich man"

Is The Rich Man and Lazarus Story About Hell Prophecy Parable or both? | End Time News

34 All these things Jesus spoke to the multitude in parables; and without a parable He did not speak to them, 35 that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying: "I will open My mouth in parables; I will utter things kept secret from the foundation of the world." (Matt. 13:34-35

endtimenews.net

 

[Alfred Persson]

I'm not sure what you're saying 'no' to. I'm going to rephrase what I'm asking so we don't go down the wrong trail. Is the punishment meted out to unbelievers physical punishment while in hell or only being in hell? Also, I don't know what you mean by "all the drivel about being denied God's presence is torment to them, is BS." First, what does that have to do with the discussion? Second, the use of "BS" should not be in a Christian's mind, never mind written on forums when one has the ability to think before they speak. It's also a violation of the ToS.

"Boots and Shoes", that's what BS stands for. All those who claim "not being in the presence of God" is only torment the wicked will experience, are speaking BS.

You focused on whether the wicked are in God's presence. I answered in different ways, "Hell no". It can't happen because God is Holy.

I will answer the rest of your response, later.

 

[Alfred Persson]

They are under the condemnation of sin and will have to face the judgement...

Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

You lost me. Your point is?

 

[Alfred Persson]

There is no "lesser sins" and "greater sins", from God's perspective we're all sinners. If we're left in the dark without Jesus, we're no better than Hitler or Stalin.

That's absurd, and unscriptural.

Because of their ignorance Jesus was God in the Flesh, veiled by humanity---Jesus forgives blasphemy and gives a second chance:
“Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him… (Matt. 12:32 NKJ)


47 "And that servant who knew his master's will, and did not prepare himself or do according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.
48 "But he who did not know, yet committed things deserving of stripes, shall be beaten with few. For everyone to whom much is given, from him much will be required; and to whom much has been committed, of him they will ask the more. (Lk. 12:47-48 NKJ)

Not all sin is the same, some sin is so horrible it merits Eternal Torment

"But whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to stumble, it would be better for him if a millstone were hung around his neck, and he were thrown into the sea. (Mk. 9:42 NKJ)

 

[reddogs]

You lost me. Your point is?

The judgement on the condemnation is separation from God in a death from which they cease to exist, the punishment is the fire and brimstone in the Lake of Fire, which being burned in a accident I can attest, one does not want to experience....

 

[Alfred Persson]

The judgement on the condemnation is separation from God in a death from which they cease to exist, the punishment is the fire and brimstone in the Lake of Fire, which being burned in a accident I can attest, one does not want to experience....

The wicked want to be separated from God, that isn't punishment to them:

19 "And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20 "For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. (Jn. 3:19-20 NKJ)

The Lake of Fire is symbol both of Torment and Destruction:

When “Death and Hades” are cast into the lake of fire” they are destroyed (1 Cor. 15:26), but the Devil, Beast and False Prophet receive eternal torment (Rev. 20:10).

These different fates require the symbolism of a consuming fire that cannot be quenched (Isa. 66:24; Mk. 9:44, 46, 48) is not pertinent to the duration of whatever is cast into it; Whatever is cast in can be immediately destroyed or endure for an undetermined period of time. Their lot or destiny, “their part” (3313 μέρος meros, Rev. 21:8) of “eternity” in the lake of fire, is “according to their works” (Rev. 20:12), in proportion to their deeds.

Does the Lake of Fire Symbolize Eternal Torment? | End Time News

Does the Lake of Fire Symbolize Eternal Torment for all cast into it? When “Death and Hades” are cast into the lake of fire” they are destroyed (1 Cor. 15:26), but the Devil, Beast and False Prophet receive eternal torment (Rev. 20:10). These different fates require the symbolism of a consuming...

endtimenews.net

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

That's absurd, and unscriptural.

Because of their ignorance Jesus was God in the Flesh, veiled by humanity---Jesus forgives blasphemy and gives a second chance:
“Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him… (Matt. 12:32 NKJ)

This is in the context of the "unforgivable sin", it's unforgivable because denying the power of God is denying forgiveness of all sins, regardless of what sin it is. Forgiveness is not forced, it must be accepted willingly. That doesn't make anything else a "lesser sin". "Whoever has sinned against me, I will blot him out of my book." (Ex. 32:33) No greater or lesser sin is separated there.