The threat of Eternal Punishment for accepting the Mark implies less than eternal punishment exists for lesser sins

[Alfred Persson]

Again, it seems like you're not actually reading my posts. Go back to my post #30 and see where I answered that and said there were believers before him. I also repeated that in post #41. It seems that this is a red herring to avoid answering my questions.


Yes, and that has nothing to do with what I said. Once again, going back to a claim you made, which I repeated in my previous post and you once again ignored:

You said that the “brethren,” the believers Jesus spoke to, “were seated with Christ judging the Sheep and the Goats.” And, this was my response:

Where, exactly, does it say that these believers "were seated with Christ judging the Sheep and Goats"? Where is that in the context? Notice that:

Mat 25:31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne.
Mat 25:32 Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. (ESV)

First, Jesus "will sit on his glorious throne." It is the only throne mentioned in the passage and he is the only one said to be sitting on that throne. Second, "he will separate people one from another . . . the sheep from the goats." The sheep are the believers. So, there are believers of all sorts before him. Those to whom he is referring are those believers who helped the "the least of" the believers, showing the mercy, kindness, and compassion that he showed.
You are adding your own ideas into that passage.

Why must I search multiple posts when you can't answer a direct question in this one:

Was Jesus mistaken when He said "these my brethren", Were not the brethren there?

"And the King will answer and say to them,`Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.' (Matt. 25:40 NKJ)

Jesus EXACTLY identifies a group present while He is speaking as "these my brethren". That is where it EXACTLY is.

You asked, "where exactly" is it said they were with Him, now you have your answer, in verse 40.

 

[Alfred Persson]

This is in the context of the "unforgivable sin", it's unforgivable because denying the power of God is denying forgiveness of all sins, regardless of what sin it is. Forgiveness is not forced, it must be accepted willingly. That doesn't make anything else a "lesser sin". "Whoever has sinned against me, I will blot him out of my book." (Ex. 32:33) No greater or lesser sin is separated there.

Prove your claim, with scripture. Show us where God treats all sin equally, metes out the same justice regardless the sin.

Otherwise, I will let the absurdity of your claim refute itself.

 

[Free]

I was appealing to the use of the word "forever" and how it doesn't mean "eternal" when referring to "a persons life in this world."

This is what you first said:

‘he shall serve him forever. Exo.21:6
"Forever" here means for his earthly life.’

Then, when quoting the same verse:

‘All the days of his mortal life.....this is the way "forever" should be thought of when applying torment to judgment.‘

You said that ‘this is the way "forever" should be thought of when applying torment to judgment.‘ However, as I pointed out, Ex 21:6 has nothing to do with judgement.

In other words, people will be judged forever (for what we did our whole lives) and the shame of the unforgiven is what causes their torment.
The torment doesn't last forever. The annhilation of the spirit of unforgiven is eternal.

Christians will be judged for the works they did in this life, to determine the level of reward, not to determine salvation; that is assured. Unbelievers will be judged by their works which will show that they weren’t saved.

Adultery and murder ( or consiracy to commit murder) was punishable by death under Mosaic law.

Sin demands repentance,

Of course it demands repentance, but that alone doesn’t remove the penalty of sin. In order for God to be just, that penalty must be paid. If a judge let off a rapist or murderer simply because they said they were sorry, we would consider that highly unjust. So, why should we think differently when it comes to God? The penalty of sin must be paid, one way or another; it cannot be otherwise.

Heb 9:22 Indeed, under the law almost everything is purified with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins. (ESV)

In our talks before I'm sure I've mentioned justice demands the life of the one sinning. Throughout the Bible, OT or NT, condemnation is only perscribed for the guilty.

And I fully agree, apart from the OT sacrificial system in which animals were killed for atonement. That has never changed. The problem is, everyone has sinned and fallen “short of the glory of God” (Rom 3:23). The result is that everyone deserves death, as that is the penalty (Rom 6:23). Yet, “the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.” But why? Precisely because “[God] made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God” (2 Cor 5:21).

So, here is the dilemma for your position: since, as you say, “justice demands the life of the one sinning,” then everyone must die and there is no hope of eternal life. If God is just, then the penalty must be paid by each one of us. That is the logical outworking of your position.

However, the Bible makes it abundantly clear that God places all our sins on Christ at the cross, and he took the penalty for our sin that we “might become the righteousness of God.” This is what the entire OT sacrificial system was pointing to; Christ fulfilled it.

In other words, God himself takes on human flesh to become the perfect sacrifice—to pay the penalty (mercy) and give us eternal life as a free gift (grace), to be accepted by faith.

That is the gospel.

Propitiation refers to the covering of the ark beneath the Mercy Seat. The ark where the law was kept-----> underneath the Throne of God. <-----this is why After our High Priest sprinkled His blood on the law. He sat on His Throne.

Propitiation literally means “to avert the wrath of.” Christ’s death satisfied the requirement of death as the penalty for sin and so averted God’s wrath for those who believe in faith.

Instead, Jesus kept His anger back against sinners who deserved death. Read the passages you cited this way.

He had to hold back his anger. It was the will of the Father that Jesus should die for our sins. If Jesus didn’t obey the Father and die for our sins, we would all be eternally lost.

Judgment day is coming for everyone.

Those who believe see their sins against God clearly, are repentant and ask and receive forgivness.

Those who repent and believe are already forgiven solely on the basis of Christ’s shed blood on our behalf.

We've talked and disagreed about this also. It's really ok.

Since that is the topic of this thread, hell is eternal and those thrown into it remain for eternity. Any physical punishment seems to be temporary, but they never get out and are never annihilated.

 

[Free]

Why must I search multiple posts when you can't answer a direct question in this one:

Was Jesus mistaken when He said "these my brethren", Were not the brethren there?

Because you’re not reading my posts despite my repeatedly saying I have directly answered that question in the posts I mentioned. If you’re not going to read what I write, that’s on you.

"And the King will answer and say to them,`Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.' (Matt. 25:40 NKJ)

Jesus EXACTLY identifies a group present while He is speaking as "these my brethren". That is where it EXACTLY is.

You asked, "where exactly" is it said they were with Him, now you have your answer, in verse 40.

This is dishonest. You’re not quoting what I asked, which I have even given three times now. You made a specific claim, which is what I was asking about. What you quoted here is not it, at all. Please read what I have written before responding.

 

[Consecrated Life]

If the Rich man was irredeemable, an enemy of God, why did Abraham and other saints WANT to aid him, but couldn't because of a great gulf.

Abraham and fellows would NOT want to work against God, so you must be wrong about the Rich man"

Is The Rich Man and Lazarus Story About Hell Prophecy Parable or both? | End Time News

34 All these things Jesus spoke to the multitude in parables; and without a parable He did not speak to them, 35 that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying: "I will open My mouth in parables; I will utter things kept secret from the foundation of the world." (Matt. 13:34-35

endtimenews.net

Jesus declares the just fate of the Rich Man " Thou art tormented ".

Luk 16:25
........ and thou art tormented.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

Prove your claim, with scripture. Show us where God treats all sin equally, metes out the same justice regardless the sin.

Otherwise, I will let the absurdity of your claim refute itself.

What's really absurd is that you're ignoring the Scripture I quoted. Did God specify what sin in Ex. 32:33?

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

Why must I search multiple posts when you can't answer a direct question in this one:

Was Jesus mistaken when He said "these my brethren", Were not the brethren there?

"And the King will answer and say to them,`Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.' (Matt. 25:40 NKJ)

Jesus EXACTLY identifies a group present while He is speaking as "these my brethren". That is where it EXACTLY is.

You asked, "where exactly" is it said they were with Him, now you have your answer, in verse 40.

"My brethren" are His diciples, defined by Jesus himself in Matt. 12:48-50. Suggesting anything else is not scriptural. See post #36.

 

[journeymanisnothing]

This is what you first said:

‘he shall serve him forever. Exo.21:6
"Forever" here means for his earthly life.’

Then, when quoting the same verse:

‘All the days of his mortal life.....this is the way "forever" should be thought of when applying torment to judgment.‘

You said that ‘this is the way "forever" should be thought of when applying torment to judgment.‘ However, as I pointed out, Ex 21:6 has nothing to do with judgement.

Actually it might, because the confession of servitude and piercing the servants ear had to witnessed by the elders, but no that wasn't my point.

My point is the word olam or aion can mean temporary when referring to torment because it concerns sinful conduct in this world. Sin is temporary. Torment is temporary. Death of the body, soul and spirit is eternal.

Christians will be judged for the works they did in this life, to determine the level of reward, not to determine salvation; that is assured. Unbelievers will be judged by their works which will show that they weren’t saved.

Everyones body must also pass the fire,

If someone's work is burned up, he will suffer loss. He himself will be saved but only as through fire. 1Cor.3:15 NET

Of course it demands repentance, but that alone doesn’t remove the penalty of sin. In order for God to be just, that penalty must be paid.

I'm talking about Gods' mercy. Gods' justice demands the life of the one who sins. I'm going to cite the numerous passages both Old and New that plainly say this because we've talked about this before and it was ignored.

If a judge let off a rapist or murderer simply because they said they were sorry, we would consider that highly unjust.

Yes we would until we discover,

Thou that makest thy boast of the law, through breaking the law dishonourest thou God? Rom.2:23

We don't have to be rapists and I'm not condoning rape, but the prison system is to reform criminals. The gospel Jesus preached reforms sinners who truly want help.

So, why should we think differently when it comes to God? The penalty of sin must be paid, one way or another; it cannot be otherwise.

Heb 9:22 Indeed, under the law almost everything is purified with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins. (ESV)

The shedding of blood occured as the result of fighting against sin,

In your struggle against sin you have not yet resisted to the point of shedding your blood. Heb.12:4 ESV

They were beaten and executed by the authorities for the gospels' sake. That's why Jesus shed His blood and overcame their sins against Him.

And I fully agree, apart from the OT sacrificial system in which animals were killed for atonement. That has never changed. The problem is, everyone has sinned and fallen “short of the glory of God” (Rom 3:23). The result is that everyone deserves death, as that is the penalty (Rom 6:23). Yet, “the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.” But why? Precisely because “[God] made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God” (2 Cor 5:21).

And this has been explained many times.

 

[7thMoon]

I noticed the Revelation 22:5 has the Greek phrase εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας τῶν αἰώνων probably meaning into most changings. You need another iota to make the noun about permanence. A permanent chastisement κόλασιν αἰώνιον is such an example.

 

[Alfred Persson]

Because you’re not reading my posts despite my repeatedly saying I have directly answered that question in the posts I mentioned. If you’re not going to read what I write, that’s on you.


This is dishonest. You’re not quoting what I asked, which I have even given three times now. You made a specific claim, which is what I was asking about. What you quoted here is not it, at all. Please read what I have written before responding.

If you could answer without destroying your argument, you would have done so.

Evading the issue doesn't do your case any good at all.

I expected nothing less from someone who can deny the rapture plainly taught in 1 Thessalonians because their presence implies the rapture happened precisely as prophesied.


Christ said to the Sheep "these my brethren" proving they were there, in the audience if not seated with Christ. But other scriptures revealing the Church will be judges also, implies they were seated with Christ as He spoke.

Christ repeats they are there in the audience to the Goats:
"Then He will answer them, saying,`Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.' (Matt. 25:45 NKJ)

You evade that point because it devastates your position. Don't blame me for your unwillingness to answer. I have been generous with your evasions of the issue.

Everyone is witness to that. No one is fooled.

 

[Alfred Persson]

I noticed the Revelation 22:5 has the Greek phrase εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας τῶν αἰώνων probably meaning into most changings. You need another iota to make the noun about permanence. A permanent chastisement κόλασιν αἰώνιον is such an example.

I believe the spelling is correct, not lackikng an iota. And the meaning is clear, forever. Day and night, forever:

And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. (Rev. 20:10 NKJ)
καὶ βασανισθήσονται ἡμέρας καὶ νυκτὸς εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας τῶν αἰώνων. (Rev. 20:10 BYZ)

 

[Alfred Persson]

"My brethren" are His diciples, defined by Jesus himself in Matt. 12:48-50. Suggesting anything else is not scriptural. See post #36.

I didn't suggest anyone else.

Jesus just landed in Jerusalem, with His angels. He summons the Sheep and Goats of Christendom, who were left behind at the Rapture, to be judged.

Because the Sheep helped Christ's disciples while the Beast was persecuting them, they enter the kingdom. The Goats slammed their door in the face of starving Christians who couldn't buy or sell without accepting the mark. They are cast into the fire:

40 "He who receives you receives Me, and he who receives Me receives Him who sent Me.
41 "He who receives a prophet in the name of a prophet shall receive a prophet's reward. And he who receives a righteous man in the name of a righteous man shall receive a righteous man's reward.
42 "And whoever gives one of these little ones only a cup of cold water in the name of a disciple, assuredly, I say to you, he shall by no means lose his reward." (Matt. 10:40-42 NKJ)

Verse 42 could be seen as a promise Goat like people would be punished for their lack of charity.


So all the OT saints, the 12 apostles, the raptured church, all who took part in the 1st resurrection, are seated with Christ as kings and priests, during this judgment of the Sheep and Goats:

Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years. (Rev. 20:6 NKJ)

 

[Alfred Persson]

What's really absurd is that you're ignoring the Scripture I quoted. Did God specify what sin in Ex. 32:33?

That doesn't say God treats all sinners the same.

And the LORD said to Moses, "Whoever has sinned against Me, I will blot him out of My book. (Exod. 32:33 NKJ)

In fact, some sinners are forgiven:

Blessed is the man to whom the LORD shall not impute sin." (Rom. 4:8 NKJ)

You are the first I ever met who believes treating every sinner the same, is justice. From those who litter, to mass murderers, all get the same torment in hell.

You are unique.

 

[Alfred Persson]

Jesus declares the just fate of the Rich Man " Thou art tormented ".

Luk 16:25
........ and thou art tormented.

Yes, he was and Abraham and saints felt compassion for the Rich Man in hell, and were willing to endure the fires of hades to help him:

`And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.' (Lk. 16:26 NKJ)

So the Rich Man couldn't have been an irredeemable enemy of God, neither Abraham or the Saints would have any compassion for God's enemies or the wicked:

21 Do I not hate them, O LORD, who hate You? And do I not loathe those who rise up against You?
22 I hate them with perfect hatred; I count them my enemies. (Ps. 139:21-22 NKJ)

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

That doesn't say God treats all sinners the same.

And the LORD said to Moses, "Whoever has sinned against Me, I will blot him out of My book. (Exod. 32:33 NKJ)

In fact, some sinners are forgiven:

Blessed is the man to whom the LORD shall not impute sin." (Rom. 4:8 NKJ)

That book is known as the Book of the Living, all living human beings are recorded on that book. We all will die and thus be blotted from that book, for the wages of sin is death. Only to those who accepted Jesus as their savior, though, will have their names written on the Book of Life, which is a different one in Rev. 20. Without Jesus, all sins will be accounted for.

You are the first I ever met who believes treating every sinner the same, is justice. From those who litter, to mass murderers, all get the same torment in hell.

You are unique.

Consequences of sin vary in this life, those are definitely not the same; but I'm talking about salvation, not justice. No sin can be tolerated in the presence of God, and none will be carried into New Jerusalem.

 

[7thMoon]

I believe the spelling is correct, not lackikng an iota. And the meaning is clear, forever. Day and night, forever:

And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. (Rev. 20:10 NKJ)
καὶ βασανισθήσονται ἡμέρας καὶ νυκτὸς εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας τῶν αἰώνων. (Rev. 20:10 BYZ)

What do you make of the αει which no meaning of permanence? αει ων also implies to something which makes continual, and αιωνιος implies a significant continuation. The meaning of this word has never been clear, and like many English renderings of Greek words, exaggerated. Only God is forever or ideal.

 

[Alfred Persson]

That book is known as the Book of the Living, all living human beings are recorded on that book. We all will die and thus be blotted from that book, for the wages of sin is death. Only to those who accepted Jesus as their savior, though, will have their names written on the Book of Life, which is a different one in Rev. 20. Without Jesus, all sins will be accounted for.

Consequences of sin vary in this life, those are definitely not the same; but I'm talking about salvation, not justice. No sin can be tolerated in the presence of God, and none will be carried into New Jerusalem.

"Consequences of sin vary in this life" you say, but not in God's Judgment? All unsaved "die the death" (second death), but all are punished according to works. Why is that rejected by you, when you admit its true of human justice. Wouldn't Divine Justice be perfectly just?

 

[Alfred Persson]

What do you make of the αει which no meaning of permanence? αει ων also implies to something which makes continual, and αιωνιος implies a significant continuation. The meaning of this word has never been clear, and like many English renderings of Greek words, exaggerated. Only God is forever or ideal.

That's classical Greek "ever flowing". Not Koine NT Greek. Although "ages to the ages" in different contexts might mean "age during" or until the ages are done, but in this context "forever" is the more likely meaning.

 

[Consecrated Life]

Yes, he was and Abraham and saints felt compassion for the Rich Man in hell, and were willing to endure the fires of hades to help him:

`And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.' (Lk. 16:26 NKJ)

So the Rich Man couldn't have been an irredeemable enemy of God, neither Abraham or the Saints would have any compassion for God's enemies or the wicked:

21 Do I not hate them, O LORD, who hate You? And do I not loathe those who rise up against You?
22 I hate them with perfect hatred; I count them my enemies. (Ps. 139:21-22 NKJ)

I take it then you are saying that this is clearly Jesus's communication to us of the temporary nature of the Rich man's torment ?

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

"Consequences of sin vary in this life" you say, but not in God's Judgment? All unsaved "die the death" (second death), but all are punished according to works. Why is that rejected by you, when you admit its true of human justice. Wouldn't Divine Justice be perfectly just?

All whose name are not found in the Book of Life are cast into the Lake of Fire (Rev. 20:15), that's the final verdict, and that's God's judgment. It's a fair judgement because they've pledged their alliegiance to the Beast by taking his mark.