The Tower of "Babel"

[VirginShallConceive]

I just asked "ONE" evidence. So, where is it? You have the boldness to criticize me yet have no boldness to show me an evidence for a language?
Let me know what they have dug so far and point me to that evidence.

I said, evidence for just "ONE" language before 3100 BC. Did I made that clear? I don't want anyone to criticize like this without evidence. Neither did I ask anyone to believe me for I am asking for evidence.

Since many seem to believe that languages existed long before, I just need evidence for your blind belief.

Hi, felix.

You're right. I was wrong on that one. Fair enough.

• The date you mentioned 3500 BC (may be referring to Kish tablet) is not any writing, nor it is Sumerian. The oldest known Sumerian tablets date only from 3100 BC.
• The earliest known Egyptian hieroglyphs was also around 3100 BC.
• Proto-Elamite (undeciphered) from around 3100 BC
• The existence of Akkadian language is attested in Sumerian texts by using it's proper names around 2900 BC.

Do you have any scientific explanation of how, all of a sudden different languages started to emerge along with different scripts appearing at the same time?

It doesn't seem to me that all written languages just "poofed" into existence on one particular day. How about the native people of the Americas? They developed writing at a later time. Another thing is that the gradual(not instantaneous) evolution of language can be observed, like from Old English to Modern English.

I do know there was one language in antediluvian era and God confused the languages in tower of Babel.

Without evidence, it is not scientific to even say that languages existed before 3100 BC (+/- 200 yrs).

For me, I used to think that, but now I know that there wasn't one language. It's not only the languages, but the story of a God who scatters people all over the world, mixes up all their languages, only to allow them to regroup later on and build space stations. The language is huge too. If you really wanted to mix up the languages, why would you have the Chinese, Vietnamese, and Korean languages next to each other, and then the English, German, and French next to each other? I could mix them up better than that. You gotta stir that pot.

So here, you have me " knowing" that there was more than one language in 7000 B.C., and you have you "knowing" that there was only one language in 3200 B.C.
Why is that? I'm sure you and I both agree that 1+1=2. I'm sure that you and I both agree that water is 2 parts hydrogen and 1 part oxygen. Why would we hold such extremely different "knowledges" when it comes to the Tower of Babel? There is one major thing that can cause such extremities. It's called "motive". Motive is huge. You so badly want the story to be true. Do you think my reason for holding my "knowledge" is because I so badly want the story to be false? Why would I? I have no motive. I just gather the available data, like the reasons I mentioned above, and come to my conclusion. That's it.

 

[felix]

For me, I used to think that, but now I know that there wasn't one language. It's not only the languages, but the story of a God who scatters people all over the world, mixes up all their languages, only to allow them to regroup later on and build space stations. The language is huge too. If you really wanted to mix up the languages, why would you have the Chinese, Vietnamese, and Korean languages next to each other, and then the English, German, and French next to each other? I could mix them up better than that. You gotta stir that pot.

So here, you have me " knowing" that there was more than one language in 7000 B.C., and you have you "knowing" that there was only one language in 3200 B.C.
Why is that? I'm sure you and I both agree that 1+1=2. I'm sure that you and I both agree that water is 2 parts hydrogen and 1 part oxygen. Why would we hold such extremely different "knowledges" when it comes to the Tower of Babel? There is one major thing that can cause such extremities. It's called "motive". Motive is huge. You so badly want the story to be true. Do you think my reason for holding my "knowledge" is because I so badly want the story to be false? Why would I? I have no motive. I just gather the available data, like the reasons I mentioned above, and come to my conclusion. That's it.

Most of the languages you mentioned did not existed before 2 millenniums. Vietnamese is Sino-Tibetian and Korean is Altaic are daughter languages which did not existed before 2000 yrs. French is nothing but evolved Latin. Latin is a indo-european language which did not existed before 6th Century BC. German and English are very recent languages which did not existed before 6th century AD.

We are not talking about evolved daughter languages here but the origin of language itself. There were only a handful of languages that spontaneously sprung around 3100 BC.

 

[enlightened]

Hi, felix.

You're right. I was wrong on that one. Fair enough.









It doesn't seem to me that all written languages just "poofed" into existence on one particular day. How about the native people of the Americas? They developed writing at a later time. Another thing is that the gradual(not instantaneous) evolution of language can be observed, like from Old English to Modern English.






For me, I used to think that, but now I know that there wasn't one language. It's not only the languages, but the story of a God who scatters people all over the world, mixes up all their languages, only to allow them to regroup later on and build space stations. The language is huge too. If you really wanted to mix up the languages, why would you have the Chinese, Vietnamese, and Korean languages next to each other, and then the English, German, and French next to each other? I could mix them up better than that. You gotta stir that pot.

So here, you have me " knowing" that there was more than one language in 7000 B.C., and you have you "knowing" that there was only one language in 3200 B.C.
Why is that? I'm sure you and I both agree that 1+1=2. I'm sure that you and I both agree that water is 2 parts hydrogen and 1 part oxygen. Why would we hold such extremely different "knowledges" when it comes to the Tower of Babel? There is one major thing that can cause such extremities. It's called "motive". Motive is huge. You so badly want the story to be true. Do you think my reason for holding my "knowledge" is because I so badly want the story to be false? Why would I? I have no motive. I just gather the available data, like the reasons I mentioned above, and come to my conclusion. That's it.

It is quite obvious that you do not believe the Word of God, else you would believe the world truly was of one language. You missed 1 TIM 6:20, wher eit says that man's science is falsely called science by men, and is therefore quite fallible.

 

[Vanguard]

It is quite obvious that you do not believe the Word of God, else you would believe the world truly was of one language. You missed 1 TIM 6:20, wher eit says that man's science is falsely called science by men, and is therefore quite fallible.

That's not what 1 Timothy 6:20 NASB says. That is your opinion of what it says, but, once again, is out of context. The entire chapter is talking about those who minister, and is a guideline of caution for them. Science was pretty much non-existent at that time, although basic medicine and anatomy did exist (thanks to the Egyptians). Those verses are actually referring to differing philosophies, not sciences.

Furthermore, since God created everything and gave man intelligence beyond animals, God knew that men would evolve to understand philosophy and science. His laws of nature govern the principles of science. To think otherwise means that God is neither omnipotent nor omniscient.

 

[westtexas]

For me, I used to think that, but now I know that there wasn't one language. It's not only the languages, but the story of a God who scatters people all over the world, mixes up all their languages,

VSC, can I ask when you believe that there was more than language? Creation, pre-flood, post-flood? I'm not sure where your beliefs are on the flood but if you believe in a world-wide flood would you not agree that with only 8 on the ark that there was only 1 language? Thanks for your thoughts.

 

[VirginShallConceive]

Most of the languages you mentioned did not existed before 2 millenniums. Vietnamese is Sino-Tibetian and Korean is Altaic are daughter languages which did not existed before 2000 yrs. French is nothing but evolved Latin. Latin is a indo-european language which did not existed before 6th Century BC. German and English are very recent languages which did not existed before 6th century AD.

We are not talking about evolved daughter languages here but the origin of language itself. There were only a handful of languages that spontaneously sprung around 3100 BC.

Okay, so you believe that there was a "Tower of Babel" incident, and after that, the initially-mixed languages evolved and branched out eventually into even more languages. How do you explain written language in the Americas? The difference in the advancement of written language and technology in different parts of the world alone goes against what the "Tower of Babel" story implies.

 

[felix]

Okay, so you believe that there was a "Tower of Babel" incident, and after that, the initially-mixed languages evolved and branched out eventually into even more languages. How do you explain written language in the Americas? The difference in the advancement of written language and technology in different parts of the world alone goes against what the "Tower of Babel" story implies.

What goes against "Tower of Babel" ? How does written language in Americas goes against tower of Babel ? Can you please elaborate?

 

[VirginShallConceive]

VSC, can I ask when you believe that there was more than language? Creation, pre-flood, post-flood? I'm not sure where your beliefs are on the flood but if you believe in a world-wide flood would you not agree that with only 8 on the ark that there was only 1 language? Thanks for your thoughts.

Hi, westtexas.

I used to believe in Noah's Ark, but not anymore. Looking back, I can't believe that I held that belief for as long as I did. Lately, I believe in the modern scholarly consensus on scientific matters, at least on the subjects I've looked into. There's a lot to learn. I've actually learned a lot from others' posts on this forum.

 

[Vanguard]

BTW...which Tower of Babel are we referring to? Multiple cultures from all over the ancient world have similar stories about towers built to reach the heavens. Different cities, different continents, different periods of time.

 

[westtexas]

Hi, westtexas.

I used to believe in Noah's Ark, but not anymore. Looking back, I can't believe that I held that belief for as long as I did. Lately, I believe in the modern scholarly consensus on scientific matters, at least on the subjects I've looked into.

Fair enough. I don't want to change the subject but do you think you are going to find modern scholarly consensus that a Virgin Shall Concieve?

 

[VirginShallConceive]

What goes against "Tower of Babel" ? How does written language in Americas goes against tower of Babel ? Can you please elaborate?

Well, in my opinion, if you first assume that people gradually spread out from Africa about a million years ago, and then started populating America around 15,000 to 20,000 years ago, it makes perfect sense that not every culture will develop written language at the same time. They will reach their Bronze Ages and Iron Ages during different centuries as well. If you first assume the "Tower of Babel" story, it doesn't fit as well. Let's say, you, I, and three others are working on a project. We all speak the same language. All of the sudden, God changes our language and scatters us around the globe. You or I might not have the ability to manufacture paper on our own, but even though our languages have changed, you and I should still be able to write with the same sophistication that we did before the "scattering incident". It's not like I get to keep my sophistication, but your knowledge goes back to that of a human who lived in the Stone Age. And if it did happen that way, it would have been nice if they included that detail in the "Tower of Babel" story.

 

[VirginShallConceive]

Fair enough. I don't want to change the subject but do you think you are going to find modern scholarly consensus that a Virgin Shall Concieve?

I saw a thread on that subject. I still want to check the Hebrew and all the points that were raised. I admit that I have not, yet. The topic of that thread made me think, and I have yet to post in there. Honestly, you have asked me a good question, westtexas.

 

[westtexas]

I saw a thread on that subject. I still want to check the Hebrew and all the points that were raised. I admit that I have not, yet. The topic of that thread made me think, and I have yet to post in there. Honestly, you have asked me a good question, westtexas.

If you can't find your consensus, do you continue to believe-by faith-that a virgin has conceived? And maybe believe-by faith-in the tower and the ark? Or do all 3 go in the trash bin?
God bless.

 

[VirginShallConceive]

If you can't find your consensus, do you continue to believe-by faith-that a virgin has conceived? And maybe believe-by faith-in the tower and the ark? Or do all 3 go in the trash bin?
God bless.

That is a good post right there, westtexas. You even steered our conversation back toward the topic. Your post is definitely "food for thought".

God Bless

 

[Vanguard]

I saw a thread on that subject. I still want to check the Hebrew and all the points that were raised. I admit that I have not, yet. The topic of that thread made me think, and I have yet to post in there. Honestly, you have asked me a good question, westtexas.

Was it this one: http://www.christianforums.net/showthread.php?t=49301

 

[VirginShallConceive]

BTW...which Tower of Babel are we referring to? Multiple cultures from all over the ancient world have similar stories about towers built to reach the heavens. Different cities, different continents, different periods of time.

Who is your post addressed to? Me?

 

[VirginShallConceive]

Was it this one: http://www.christianforums.net/showthread.php?t=49301

I believe so.

I'll let you sleep tonight, but you know I'll be in there with a vengeance when people start attacking my username. :fullauto

 

[JLB]

NASB: GENESIS 11:1-9

1 Now the whole earth used the same language and the same words.

2 It came about as they journeyed east, that they found a plain in the land of Shinar and settled there.

3 They said to one another, “Come, let us make bricks and burn them thoroughly.†And they used brick for stone, and they used tar for mortar.

4 They said, “Come, let us build for ourselves a city, and a tower whose top will reach into heaven, and let us make for ourselves a name, otherwise we will be scattered abroad over the face of the whole earth.â€

5 The Lord came down to see the city and the tower which the sons of men had built.

6 The Lord said, “Behold, they are one people, and they all have the same language. And this is what they began to do, and now nothing which they purpose to do will be impossible for them.

7 Come, let Us go down and there confuse their language, so that they will not understand one another’s speech.â€

8 So the Lord scattered them abroad from there over the face of the whole earth; and they stopped building the city.

9 Therefore its name was called Babel, because there the Lord confused the language of the whole earth; and from there the Lord scattered them abroad over the face of the whole earth.



Is this story a literal account, a parable, metaphorical, allegorical, or perhaps simply an etiology (a story, whether it is fact or fiction, that simple explains the origin of something)?

Multiple cultures throughout the ancient world had a "Tower of Babel" story, though the time period, name and location differed by culture. Some of those cultures claim that their tower was over [~600 feet] high, while others claim to measure more than [~5 miles] high.

My view is that it is simply an etiology. No one really knew why there were different languages, so a story evolved to explain the phenomenon.

Opinions?

It is the truth that teaches us how the first religion [Mother of all Harlots] was conceived.

Mans efforts to get to God by the works of his hands!


JLB

 

[VirginShallConceive]

It is the truth that teaches us how the first religion [Mother of all Harlots] was conceived.

Mans efforts to get to God by the works of his hands!


JLB

I love it when you show up, JLB. You always manage to kick the intensity level up a notch. :onfire

 

[felix]

Well, in my opinion, if you first assume that people gradually spread out from Africa about a million years ago, and then started populating America around 15,000 to 20,000 years ago, it makes perfect sense that not every culture will develop written language at the same time. They will reach their Bronze Ages and Iron Ages during different centuries as well. If you first assume the "Tower of Babel" story, it doesn't fit as well. Let's say, you, I, and three others are working on a project. We all speak the same language. All of the sudden, God changes our language and scatters us around the globe. You or I might not have the ability to manufacture paper on our own, but even though our languages have changed, you and I should still be able to write with the same sophistication that we did before the "scattering incident". It's not like I get to keep my sophistication, but your knowledge goes back to that of a human who lived in the Stone Age. And if it did happen that way, it would have been nice if they included that detail in the "Tower of Babel" story.

Yes, they did.
http://propheticedge.wordpress.com/2011/09/19/did-two-hindu-gods-originate-from-the-tower-of-babel/

Jasher 9:35 “And the Lord smote the three divisions that were there, and he punished them according to their works and designs; those who said, We will ascend to heaven and serve our gods, became like apes and elephants; and those who said, We will smite the heaven with arrows, the Lord killed them, one man through the hand of his neighbor; and the third division of those who said, We will ascend to heaven and fight against him, the Lord scattered them throughout the earth.

(Note: book of Jasher is found among dead sea scrolls, thus authentic. If the verse says, they became like apes and elephants, is it possible that event did really happen and the people worshiped them as gods?)

Me and my community are a living specimen to give head-ache to all scientists who push upon Out of Africa of AMH (A comparison of Fulani and Nadar HLA). FYI, the recent genetic studies in the last decade had proved "Out of Africa" to be terribly wrong but rather several migrations and recent interbreeding. Out of Africa is not based on any scientific evidence but based on 19th century European racist theories making Africans as people who just came out of apes (or "less" evolved). This is true in India as well regarding the Aryan invasion myth mostly introduced by a few upper castes and fueled by Europeans during the colonial period (Ref: New research debunks Aryan invasion theory). I will take another decade or even a century to disprove evolution or Out of Africa but there will be some racist scientists who still want to prove that all came from Africa.

It is not even 60 years ago when a Indian Singh filed a case in US supreme court proving that he is a Caucasian and wants US citizenship but denied (as in those days only a Caucasian can become a US citizen).

My community have a Australoid skull structure and a Caucasian blood along with Fulani Marker, a fully developed language with most phonetics with script which sprung from nowhere having names identical to even Hebrew and a calender system's first year that started exactly when the Mayan Calender system started half way around the globe. I even have haplogroup of most Europeans in low frequencies and genetically closer to East Asians.

Bible gives a clear picture that all came from Middle East. Noah's Ark landed in Modern day Turkey not Africa. Anyway, so called scientist will still give some crap explanation for sea shells found in mount Everest.