Malachi
Member
We keep hearing bout the "original teaching of the Trinity"? How is it different from believing that God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit are indeed ONE GOD, eternally existent as three Divine Persons?
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THE TRINITY DOCTRINE-Is it Biblical?
- Thread starter WalterandDebbie
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tinykitten
Member
God is a spirit. "Our God is one" . When you believe God is three persons you are promoting polytheism.
I'm confused by your replies.
Is Jesus God?
tinykitten
Member
What did Jesus say?
You don't know?
Why don't you just say so.
tinykitten
Member
You're the one that asked the question. That would indicate it is you that is ignorant of the answer.
Have a good day. We're done here.
Lol, yes, I asked a question and you didn't answer it.You're the one that asked the question. That would indicate it is you that is ignorant of the answer.
Do you have difficulty with English?
You answered a question with a question.
That is improper use of the English language.
The question I asked you was, "Is Jesus God?".
A simple yes or no would suffice.
Your refusal to answer this question makes me think you don't know.
So how about answering the question.
Butch5
Member
Hi Malachi,
When you ask many Christians about God they say He is one God who is the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. However, when you ask them what or who it is that consists of three different persons, they struggle to tell you what or who it is. I think it's because the logical mind knows that one being cannot be composed of three different beings. Yet, when referring to this one who consists of three persons, they use a first person singular pronoun, "He". I think many see a logical problem here and go into the realm of mystery, it's beyond understanding. I don't think it's beyond understanding, I think it's a logical contradiction. I also think many hesitate to challenge it because the Trinity is a sacred cow. I think the Christians who lived during the first 300 years of the Christian era would call it heresy.
The early Christians believed in a Trinity, but, not one where there were three co-equal, co-eternal being who are God. They believed that the Father is God, that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God and that the Holy Spirit proceeds from both the Father and the Son. The believed that the Father alone is unbegotten and self existent. They believed that Jesus, the Son, was begotten of the Father before time began. They believed that He is God in the sense that He is of the same substance as the Father. This is what was decided at the Nicene council to address the Arian controversy. They determined that the Son was begotten, not created and that He was of the same essence or substance as the Father. As I said, they believed that the Son was begotten of the Father, so there was a time when the Son did not exist as a separate entity from the Father. At the same time they believed that the Son was eternal in that His substance existed in the Father from eternity. Some of them used the example of fire. If one has a fire and they put a branch into it, it begins to burn and then they remove it, they now have two fires. The second fire although new as a separate fire has existed as long as the first fire, in the first fire. Also, the first fire is in no way diminished when the second fire comes forth from it. They also used the example of the sun. when the sun's rays strike the earth, the are proceeding from the sun and have their source in the sun.
Their view has support in the Scriptures and I believe is much more in line with Scripture than what is typically believed today. The creed that came out of the Nicene council is known as the Nicene creed, here is the opening of the creed.
"I believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible.
And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all worlds; God of God, Light of Light, very God of very God; begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father, by whom all things were made."
Notice they believed in one God, the Father. Many may balk at this and say they were wrong but their words almost quote the apostle Paul verbatim.
6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him. (1Co 8:6 KJV)
So, their belief is right out of Scripture. Many modern Christians believe there is one God the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, yet nothing can be found in Scripture to substantiate this. Even Jesus who is claimed to be that one God said,
KJV John 17:1 These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:
2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent. (Joh 17:1-3 KJV)
Even Jesus acknowledges that the Father is the "only true God." So this original teaching that the Father is the true God is right out of Scripture.
They also said that Jesus Christ, the only begotten Son, was begotten of the Father before all worlds. Psalm 2 speaks of the Son being begotten.
7 I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee. {the decree: or, for a decree}
8 Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession. (Psa 2:7-8 KJV)
Some try to say that this is speaking of the incarnation, however, at the incarnation Jesus was begotten of Mary, not the Father. We even have confirmation of this in the words of Jesus Himself when He said that He came out of God.
42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me. (Joh 8:42 KJV)
The word Jesus used that is translated "from" is the Greek word "ek", it means to come out of. The prophet Micah also speaks of Son's origin.
NET Micah 5:2 (5:1) As for you, Bethlehem Ephrathah,6 seemingly insignificant7 among the clans of Judah – from you a king will emerge who will rule over Israel on my behalf,8 one whose origins are in the distant past.10 (Mic 5:2 NET)
Micah says His origins are in the distant past. The thing to notice here is that Scripture speaks of an origin for the Son. The modern view of the Trinity argues that the Son had no origin or beginning that He always existed as a separate entity, yet the Scriptures plainly show this to be incorrect. However, we see that what the early Christians believed fits nicely with the Scriptures. The apostle John tells us about Christ existing before time. Here is a quote from one of his students, a man called Ignatius.
"But our Physician is the only true God, the unbegotten and unapproachable, the Lord of all, the Father and Begetter of the only-begotten Son. We have also as a Physician the Lord our God, Jesus the Christ, the only-begotten Son and Word, before time began, but who afterwards became also man, of Mary the virgin. For “the Word was made flesh'
Early Church Fathers - – Ante-Nicene Fathers: The Writings of the Fathers Down To A.D. 325.
Notice Ignatius' statement, the only true God is the Father, unbegotten, and begetter of the only begotten Son, begotten before time began.
In the Nicene Creed we see that the Early Christians believed in one God, the Father, and that Jesus Christ was the only begotten Son, begotten before all worlds. So the question arises, where did the idea of three co- equal, co-eternal beings come from. There are different theories about where it came from, some suspect Augustine, some others, however, we can first find it in the church's creeds in the Anthansian Creed from around the 5th century.
continued...
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Butch5
Member
Here is a portion of that creed.
3. And the catholic faith is this: That we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity;
4. Neither confounding the persons nor dividing the substance.
5. For there is one person of the Father, another of the Son, and another of the Holy Spirit.
6. But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit is all one, the glory equal, the majesty coeternal.
7. Such as the Father is, such is the Son, and such is the Holy Spirit.
8. The Father uncreated, the Son uncreated, and the Holy Spirit uncreated.
9. The Father incomprehensible, the Son incomprehensible, and the Holy Spirit incomprehensible.
10. The Father eternal, the Son eternal, and the Holy Spirit eternal.
11. And yet they are not three eternals but one eternal.
12. As also there are not three uncreated nor three incomprehensible, but one uncreated and one incomprehensible.
13. So likewise the Father is almighty, the Son almighty, and the Holy Spirit almighty.
14. And yet they are not three almighties, but one almighty.
15. So the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God;
16. And yet they are not three Gods, but one God.
17. So likewise the Father is Lord, the Son Lord, and the Holy Spirit Lord;
18. And yet they are not three Lords but one Lord.
19. For like as we are compelled by the Christian verity to acknowledge every Person by himself to be God and Lord;
20. So are we forbidden by the catholic religion to say; There are three Gods or three Lords.
21. The Father is made of none, neither created nor begotten.
22. The Son is of the Father alone; not made nor created, but begotten.
23. The Holy Spirit is of the Father and of the Son; neither made, nor created, nor begotten, but proceeding.
24. So there is one Father, not three Fathers; one Son, not three Sons; one Holy Spirit, not three Holy Spirits.
25. And in this Trinity none is afore or after another; none is greater or less than another.
26. But the whole three persons are coeternal, and coequal.
27. So that in all things, as aforesaid, the Unity in Trinity and the Trinity in Unity is to be worshipped.
28. He therefore that will be saved must thus think of the Trinity.
According to this creed there are three eternals but they are not three eternals but one eternal. That statement is ridiculous, Three persons cannot be one person. If these guys had just looked at what the first Christians believed they wouldn't have had to make contradictory statements. It's really, in my opinion, Tritheism, however, because Scripture absolutely forbids multiple God's they somehow claim that these three are one eternal. I believe that when they wrote this creed they didn't have a very good grasp of the Trinity, because what they concluded is a logical contradiction. However, what we see in the original view fits nicely with the Scriptures and one doesn't need any logical or grammatical gymnastics to explain it.
There is more that could be said but this summary should give you an idea of what the original teaching of the Trinity was.
3. And the catholic faith is this: That we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity;
4. Neither confounding the persons nor dividing the substance.
5. For there is one person of the Father, another of the Son, and another of the Holy Spirit.
6. But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit is all one, the glory equal, the majesty coeternal.
7. Such as the Father is, such is the Son, and such is the Holy Spirit.
8. The Father uncreated, the Son uncreated, and the Holy Spirit uncreated.
9. The Father incomprehensible, the Son incomprehensible, and the Holy Spirit incomprehensible.
10. The Father eternal, the Son eternal, and the Holy Spirit eternal.
11. And yet they are not three eternals but one eternal.
12. As also there are not three uncreated nor three incomprehensible, but one uncreated and one incomprehensible.
13. So likewise the Father is almighty, the Son almighty, and the Holy Spirit almighty.
14. And yet they are not three almighties, but one almighty.
15. So the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God;
16. And yet they are not three Gods, but one God.
17. So likewise the Father is Lord, the Son Lord, and the Holy Spirit Lord;
18. And yet they are not three Lords but one Lord.
19. For like as we are compelled by the Christian verity to acknowledge every Person by himself to be God and Lord;
20. So are we forbidden by the catholic religion to say; There are three Gods or three Lords.
21. The Father is made of none, neither created nor begotten.
22. The Son is of the Father alone; not made nor created, but begotten.
23. The Holy Spirit is of the Father and of the Son; neither made, nor created, nor begotten, but proceeding.
24. So there is one Father, not three Fathers; one Son, not three Sons; one Holy Spirit, not three Holy Spirits.
25. And in this Trinity none is afore or after another; none is greater or less than another.
26. But the whole three persons are coeternal, and coequal.
27. So that in all things, as aforesaid, the Unity in Trinity and the Trinity in Unity is to be worshipped.
28. He therefore that will be saved must thus think of the Trinity.
According to this creed there are three eternals but they are not three eternals but one eternal. That statement is ridiculous, Three persons cannot be one person. If these guys had just looked at what the first Christians believed they wouldn't have had to make contradictory statements. It's really, in my opinion, Tritheism, however, because Scripture absolutely forbids multiple God's they somehow claim that these three are one eternal. I believe that when they wrote this creed they didn't have a very good grasp of the Trinity, because what they concluded is a logical contradiction. However, what we see in the original view fits nicely with the Scriptures and one doesn't need any logical or grammatical gymnastics to explain it.
There is more that could be said but this summary should give you an idea of what the original teaching of the Trinity was.
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th1b.taylor
Member
TK,
I believe you're skating on the very edge if not already over the line on the ToS for this site when you teach this One God Doctrine that just misses declaring Modalism.
tinykitten
Member
I've never declared Modalism. Not once. But thank you for your concern. And God Bless!
tinykitten
Member
Have you read this scripture?
The Bible in the old testament clearly talks about "our God is one". (link to verses)
And though "Trinity" is not found in scripture there are verses that pertain to that as well. (here are examples)
Be careful in your discussion on this topic. And remember Satan roams the earth seeking souls to devour.
Be Blessed.
Why do you refuse to believe that Jesus is God?
Malachi
Member
Butch 5 quoted this:
Theopedia has this:
Butch5
I believe what you (and possibly some others) are trying to say is that because the creeds say "one God the Father" therefore Jesus cannot be truly God -- co-equal and co-eternal with the Father and the Holy Spirit.
But if you look at the complete description of Christ, it is quite evident that these creeds call Him "very God of very God" or "true God of true God". And that is the crux of the matter. The Bible reveals that Jesus is fully God and fully Man. That this is a mystery, none can deny. That this is God's reality, is quite clear from Scripture.
People can either accept the full Deity of Christ or reject it altogether. But there is no middle ground. If Christ is the Creator (along with the Father and the Holy Spirit as seen above) then He cannot be a creature. And if the "begetting" is a Divine Father-Son relationship, then there is no comparing it to human reproduction. [the creeds used to say "begotten not created" but that was changed to "begotten not made" which is slightly different]
So the question to you and anyone else who wonders is: "Do you believe that Jesus is fully God just as the Father is fully God?"
Theopedia has this:
Butch5
I believe what you (and possibly some others) are trying to say is that because the creeds say "one God the Father" therefore Jesus cannot be truly God -- co-equal and co-eternal with the Father and the Holy Spirit.
But if you look at the complete description of Christ, it is quite evident that these creeds call Him "very God of very God" or "true God of true God". And that is the crux of the matter. The Bible reveals that Jesus is fully God and fully Man. That this is a mystery, none can deny. That this is God's reality, is quite clear from Scripture.
People can either accept the full Deity of Christ or reject it altogether. But there is no middle ground. If Christ is the Creator (along with the Father and the Holy Spirit as seen above) then He cannot be a creature. And if the "begetting" is a Divine Father-Son relationship, then there is no comparing it to human reproduction. [the creeds used to say "begotten not created" but that was changed to "begotten not made" which is slightly different]
So the question to you and anyone else who wonders is: "Do you believe that Jesus is fully God just as the Father is fully God?"
ezrider
Member
Do you make for yourself a God after the image of a man? In other words, Do you believe the man Jesus after the flesh to be God?
God is a Spirit.
Malachi
Member
So ezrider, you do not believe that Jesus is God. To each his own.
"After the flesh" has nothing to do with this, since Christ is in Heaven as "the Man Christ Jesus" -- resurrected, ascended, exalted, and glorified. And just because God [the Father] is a Spirit does not cancel the fact that Jesus is God. Even the apostle Thomas could not escape that conclusion (Jn 20:28).
ezrider
Member
Be careful that you do not deceive yourself. For the very same Apostles who had walked with Jesus in the flesh, and knew him after the manner of a man; They did not know him as a Spirit after he had risen, even thought he had walked with them and talked with them, and taught them all things in the law and the prophets concerning himself. And they knew him not. You can read of this in Luke 24.
Do not presume to know what I do or do not believe. But you are correct: to each his own. You may look for the future return of a man that you can worship. I look to the Spirit that dwells in my heart.
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tinykitten
Member
That's interesting.
I think it has become very evident that this topic isn't able to be discussed openly and freely without some being threatened by those opposed to debate and Apologetics. What they lack in knowledge they threaten in personal implications that they hope sends the message to stop your thoughts on this topic or else.
This subject has been debated since before all of us here were born. When God's word doesn't settle it what in the world does interpolation and prejudice for one's personal and often false beliefs accomplish.
Is Christianity a monotheistic religion?
Obadiah
Member
This is a debate forum, therefore discussion of doctrines and beliefs that are contrary to our statement of faith and doctrinal statement are OK as long as this doesn't cross the line into promoting those doctrines. Several posts in this thread have crossed that line. If this continues, official action will be taken. I suggest everyone take a serious look at the Terms of Service AND the Statement of Faith and Doctrinal statement that you all agreed to abide by when you signed up for this forum before continuing this.
CF.NET Mission Statement in part: "ChristianForums.net aspires to provide a place where Christians can come together in fellowship for encouragement, inspiration, and strength to help build each other up and grow in our walk of faith through honest and open discussion, study, reflection, and prayer." Notice this does not include actively teaching or promoting against traditional Christian doctrines and beliefs and gives no exception for those who don't accept or believe those traditional beliefs.
CF.NET Statement of Faith in part: "We believe that there is only one God, who is eternal and immutable, and manifests Himself in three distinct Persons; Father, Son, and Holy Spirit." and "We believe that Jesus of Nazareth is the promised Messiah, born of a virgin, totally without sin, God in human flesh"
CF.NET Terms of Service section 2.1 in part: "This is a Christian site, therefore, any attempt to put down Christianity (or declare that it is false) and the basic tenets of our Faith will be considered a hostile act. Please read: Statement of Faith."
Although I have provided these quotes above, it is not our job as staff to hand feed these rules to members. It is the responsibility of the members to read and understand these things AND agree to them before becoming a member here. Take this to heart.
Obadiah
CF.NET Mission Statement in part: "ChristianForums.net aspires to provide a place where Christians can come together in fellowship for encouragement, inspiration, and strength to help build each other up and grow in our walk of faith through honest and open discussion, study, reflection, and prayer." Notice this does not include actively teaching or promoting against traditional Christian doctrines and beliefs and gives no exception for those who don't accept or believe those traditional beliefs.
CF.NET Statement of Faith in part: "We believe that there is only one God, who is eternal and immutable, and manifests Himself in three distinct Persons; Father, Son, and Holy Spirit." and "We believe that Jesus of Nazareth is the promised Messiah, born of a virgin, totally without sin, God in human flesh"
CF.NET Terms of Service section 2.1 in part: "This is a Christian site, therefore, any attempt to put down Christianity (or declare that it is false) and the basic tenets of our Faith will be considered a hostile act. Please read: Statement of Faith."
Although I have provided these quotes above, it is not our job as staff to hand feed these rules to members. It is the responsibility of the members to read and understand these things AND agree to them before becoming a member here. Take this to heart.
Obadiah