THE TRINITY DOCTRINE-Is it Biblical?

[Rollo Tamasi]

There are those posting on this thread that do not want to give answers to direct questions.
This does not allow for debate at all.
One has to wonder what their motives are.

 

[ezrider]

I am not here to debate the beliefs of your trinity doctrines. But I will tell you what I see.

1 John 5:6-8 This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth. For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood:and these three agree in one.

There are three that bear record, or bear witness of. That testify of.

For in Jesus Christ was the word of God, and He was the Word of God. He came to testify of and that we might know our heavenly Father. And through faith in his name and in his word, the Spirit of God testifies to us of the spirit of the Father within our hearts.
But then we hear the Father say, this is my beloved son in whom I am well pleased; Hear Him. And so by Faith we trust in the Father to send forth the Spirit of God to testify to us of the Spirit of Christ within our hearts.

But it is written that the Holy Spirit shall not testify of himself, or his testimony is not true. (John 16:13)
But when we hold both the Spirit of the Father and the Spirit of the Son within our hearts by Faith, then they, the Father and the Son shall testify and make known the Spirit of God working in our heart. And that by the testimony of these three, we would know God as One in Christ.

I do believe that math is universal, so if they three be in me, and I be in them, shall we become four?
But if I know that these three are one, then if they be in me and I am in them, then we shall be two. And the two shall come together and be one flesh.

 

[4afaithfulone]

THE TRINITY DOCTRINE --
Is It Biblical?

The TRINITY doctrine claims that God is a monolithic
"Three-in-One" Godhead composed of three Personalites,
the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Where did this doctrine
come from? Is it Biblical? Why is the word "Trinity"
NOT ONCE found in the Scriptures? If God is a "Trinity,"
then which one is really the "Father" of Christ -- the Father?
or the Holy Spirit which begot Him? (Matt.1:18, 20.) Its
high time we take a careful look at this strange but well-
nigh universal doctrine among Catholics and Protestants!
Your own salvation could very well be at stake!!!

William F. Dankenbring
Mark 7:1-16.
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mark 7:1-16&version=NKJV

http://www.triumphpro.com/trinity-disproved.htm

Maybe this will be of help for some understanding. In the beginning was The Word... The Word became flesh and dwelt among us. Jesus is the Word who became flesh as we know through the Seed/Word/Spirit of the Father. In order to be born again from above, we must receive the Word which is the Seed into our hearts as the Lord of our life. For how can we claim to love God the Father, but hate His Word whom He sent? For the Father, His Word(Jesus) and the Spirit are all one. The Word is the Seed, and Spirit. We can not come to the Father without Jesus, for the Word teaches us the Way, It is the Truth and gives us Life

1 John 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
KJV
Take a look at scripture in the beginning and you will see that it was The Word (of God)who came to Abraham and the prophets. Also you will notice that the spelling LORD or Lord are used both referring to God throughout the OT. Yet we understand LORD to mean the Father and Lord to mean Jesus or the Word whom we are to follow. Here is just one example of Jesus(The Word) coming to Abraham, notice it uses both LORD and Lord GOD as One God? and he was in a vision(seen), saying(voice/heard)?

Gen 15:1 After these things the word of the LORD came unto Abram in a vision, saying, Fear not, Abram: I am thy shield, and thy exceeding great reward.
2 And Abram said, Lord GOD, what wilt thou give me, seeing I go childless, and the steward of my house is this Eliezer of Damascus? KJV

Blessings

 

[Butch5]

Butch 5 quoted this:



Theopedia has this:



Butch5

I believe what you (and possibly some others) are trying to say is that because the creeds say "one God the Father" therefore Jesus cannot be truly God -- co-equal and co-eternal with the Father and the Holy Spirit.


But if you look at the complete description of Christ, it is quite evident that these creeds call Him "very God of very God" or "true God of true God". And that is the crux of the matter. The Bible reveals that Jesus is fully God and fully Man. That this is a mystery, none can deny. That this is God's reality, is quite clear from Scripture.


People can either accept the full Deity of Christ or reject it altogether. But there is no middle ground. If Christ is the Creator (along with the Father and the Holy Spirit as seen above) then He cannot be a creature. And if the "begetting" is a Divine Father-Son relationship, then there is no comparing it to human reproduction. [the creeds used to say "begotten notcreated" but that was changed to "begotten notmade" which is slightly different]


So the question to you and anyone else who wonders is: "Do you believe that Jesus is fully God just as the Father is fully God?"

Hi Malachi,


I don't say it because the creeds say it, I say it because the Apostle Paul said it.


KJV 1 Corinthians 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him. (1Co 8:6 KJV)


Yes, the creed says that He is very God of very God, however, it is speaking of substance.


I believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible.


And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all worlds;God of God, Light of Light, very God of very God;begotten, not made,being of one substance with the Father, by whom all things were made.


The creed isn't saying that He was co-eternal with the Father or that He is co-equal with the Father. As I pointed out that is a 5th century teaching. Jesus Himself said the Father is greater than I.


Regarding the eternality of Christ, He was begotten of the Father, since the Father is eternal, then anything begotten of Him would also be eternal. Just like the fire example I gave in the other post, the second fire was new as a separate fire but existed as long as the first in the first.


Regarding fully God and full man, I'll need you to elaborate on that if you would as people mean different things when they say, God. I don't want to assume what you mean by the word. I would ask a question though, how can one be fully, two different things? How can a glass be full of water and at the same time be full of grape juice?

 

[Malachi]

Hi Malachi,
I don't say it because the creeds say it, I say it because the Apostle Paul said it -- KJV 1 Corinthians 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him. (1Co 8:6 KJV)

This is perfectly true, but not in conflict with this (Col 2:2,3):
That their hearts might be comforted, being knit together in love, and unto all riches of the full assurance of understanding, to the acknowledgement of the mystery of God, and of the Father, and of Christ; In whom are hid all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge.

So we need to be clear that the "mystery of God" includes the Father, and the Son. This points to both The Father and the Son being in the Godhead. But then with reference to Christ we read further in Col 1:19 and 2:9: For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.... For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell; So now God is plainly telling us that even though Christ has a body, "the fulness of the Godhead" (not merely "the substance of God") is in Christ [which is not really "merely", but only to show the contrast from your view]. This reinforces the truth that the Lord Jesus Christ is FULLY GOD, as much as the Father is FULLY GOD.

The creed isn't saying that He was co-eternal with the Father or that He is co-equal with the Father. As I pointed out that is a 5th century teaching. Jesus Himself said the Father is greater than I.

How can Christ be "very God of very God" and not be co-eternal and co-equal with the Father? Just because those terms are absent from the creeds does not mean that that truth is absent. Think about it. When Jesus said that "the Father is greater than I", He was referring to the fact that "the Head of Christ is God" (1 Cor 11:3). This pertains to authority within the Godhead, not inequality. That is why the Father sent the Son to be the Savior of the world, and the Father and the Son sent the Holy Spirit to earth on the Day of Pentecost. Again, we are dealing with the Mystery of God (not meant for human comprehension but human faith).

Regarding fully God and full man, I'll need you to elaborate on that if you would as people mean different things when they say, God. I don't want to assume what you mean by the word. I would ask a question though, how can one be fully, two different things? How can a glass be full of water and at the same time be full of grape juice?

Now you have come to the heart of the matter. God calls this paradox "the Mystery of Godliness" -- that God could remain fully God and at the same time remain fully Man without confusion or contradiction (1 Tim 3:16):
And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

This reminds us of John 1:14,18:
And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth ... No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.
Therefore we know that God the Word took human form ("made flesh") but He was eternally "the only begotten [uniquely begotten] Son". The Son is distinct from the Father, but fully God (Heb 1:8,9). That is a mystery.

When you asked about the paradox of "fully God and fully Man" you forgot that this is the paradox of the God-Man Christ Jesus, and "with God nothing shall be impossible" (Lk 1:37).

 

[Butch5]

This is perfectly true, but not in conflict with this (Col 2:2,3):That their hearts might be comforted, being knit together in love, and unto all riches of the full assurance of understanding, to the acknowledgement of the mystery of God, and of the Father, and of Christ;In whom are hid all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge.

So we need to be clear that the "mystery of God" includes the Father, and the Son.This points to both The Father and the Son being in the Godhead. But then with reference to Christ we read further inCol 1:19and2:9:For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily....For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;So now God is plainly telling us that even though Christ has a body, "the fulness of the Godhead" (not merely "the substance of God") is in Christ[which is not really "merely", but only to show the contrast from your view].This reinforces the truth that the Lord Jesus Christ is FULLY GOD, as much as the Father is FULLY GOD.

You asked me what the original teaching of the Trinity was, and what I posted is what was believed for the first several hundred years of the Christian faith. As I said, the idea of three co-equal, coeternal persons did not appear in the church until several hundred years later.


We can discuss it if you’d like but what I’ve already stated is from the beginning. Firstly, let me say that I don’t believe the mystery of Colossians is a reference to the Trinity but rather to the Christian faith. Paul isn’t explaining the Trinity, he’s explaining their faith. However, I do understand your posting it because the idea of one being consisting of three persons is a logical contradiction and cannot logically be explained. I’ve asked several Christians and I’ll pose the question here, If God consists of three persons, what is God?


You see, many Christians say that there is one God and He consists of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. The pronoun He is first person singular and it refers to a living being. We don’t use “he” for inanimate objects, it’s used of things that are alive. So, when Christians say, “He” consists of, the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, they are in effect saying that there is one living being that consists of three other living beings, the Father, Son, and Holy spirit. I think it’s obvious to anyone that there is a logical problem with this. Three beings cannot be one being. However, this creates yet other problems. Jesus gave all honor to the Father and said that He was the only true God. If there is a being that consists of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, that being would be greater than the Father as the Father would only be a part of that being. This also would in essence destroy the Trinity as there would be four, not three. There would be the three persons and the complete being. I think these problems rule out the idea that God consisting of three persons is a “He”.


So, How can God be a Trinity? The answer lies in understanding that the word God is used in two different ways in the Scriptures. For the most part it is used as a name for the Father. When we say God, typically we mean the Father. However, the word literally means deity, when used in this sense it can be speaking of the Father, Son, or Holy Spirit. So, when we see God referred to as “He” we know it’s being used in the sense of a name or title, at other times we need to determine whether it is being used as a name or of deity.


Regarding “the Godhead,” Godhead is an old English word that means Godhood. Basically it means deity or divinity. So, yes, Jesus is deity, there is no doubt about that. Even the Nicene Creed says that He is very God of very God, very Deity of very Deity


I think what we need to look at is not what ideas can the Scriptures accommodate, but rather, what do they teach.

How can Christ be "very God of very God" and not be co-eternal and co-equal with the Father? Just because those terms are absent from the creeds does not mean that that truth is absent. Think about it. When Jesus said that "the Father is greater than I", He was referring to the fact that "the Head of Christ is God" (1 Cor 11:3).This pertains to authority within the Godhead, not inequality.That is why the Fathersentthe Son to be the Savior of the world, and the Father and the Sonsentthe Holy Spirit to earth on the Day of Pentecost. Again, we are dealing with the Mystery of God (not meant for human comprehension but human faith).

I’ve explained that in the other post with the example of fire. Whatever, the substance of the Word is, it existed in the Father before being begotten, that is how He could be eternal and yet have an origin.


I agree that when Jesus said, ‘the Father is greater than I,” He was referring to authority or order. However, that doesn’t mean He had all of the same attributes as the Father. When a man has a son, that son is just as human as his father, no more, no less. However, that doesn’t mean every attribute of the father is in the son. There are attributes that are unique to God the Father alone, that the Word/Son does not possess.


Again, I’ll have to disagree with the mystery claim. It’s not what was originally taught. What was originally taught is fully understandable. To take something that is fully understandable and then claim a mystery to support an idea that isn’t taught in the Scriptures doesn’t make sense to me. There is nothing in Scripture that says, we believe in one God, the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. What I’ve posted is plainly stated in Scripture right out of the writings of the apostle Paul, ‘to us there is one God, the Father,’ and in the words of Jesus Himself, when He called the Father the only true God.

Now you have come to the heart of the matter. God calls this paradox"the Mystery of Godliness"--that God could remain fully God and at the same time remain fully Man without confusion or contradiction(1 Tim 3:16):And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

This reminds us ofJohn 1:14,18:And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth...No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.
Therefore we know thatGod the Wordtook human form ("made flesh") but He was eternally "the only begotten [uniquely begotten] Son". The Son is distinct from the Father, but fully God (Heb 1:8,9). That is a mystery.

When you asked about the paradox of "fully God and fully Man" you forgot that this is the paradox of the God-Man Christ Jesus, and"with God nothing shall be impossible"(Lk 1:37).

But you see, this is only a problem when one believes that there is a being called God that consists of three persons. Take for instance the passage you quoted here,

“And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.”

If one understands this passage as God consisting of three persons becoming manifest in the flesh, or even one of the persons of that being that is God being manifest in the flesh, I can see how one would need to claim a paradox or mystery. However, if we change the word God to it’s definition it becomes clear without any mystery or paradox. It would simply say, Deity was manifest in the flesh. This fits nicely with the original teaching of the Trinity. Let’s use another example John 1:1

KJV John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. (Joh 1:1 KJV)

Some read this and conclude that the word and God are one and the same. However, let’s change the word God for it’s definition.

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with Deity, and the Word was Deity.

Now it’s easy to see how the Word could be with the Father, not be the Father, and still be deity. We could use an example of human authority too, in the beginning was the Word and the Word was with Royalty, and the Word was royalty. Using this example the Word could be royalty Himself and be with royalty, such as the King or the Queen.

When we understand it this way it makes perfect sense and we don’t need to invoke any mysteries or paradoxes to cover what is not explainable. Also, when we understand it this way we understand it in the way it was understood in the beginning, not several hundred years later.

 

[BigSodaExposer]

THE TRINITY DOCTRINE --
Is It Biblical?

The TRINITY doctrine claims that God is a monolithic
"Three-in-One" Godhead composed of three Personalites,
the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Where did this doctrine
come from? Is it Biblical? Why is the word "Trinity"
NOT ONCE found in the Scriptures? If God is a "Trinity,"
then which one is really the "Father" of Christ -- the Father?
or the Holy Spirit which begot Him? (Matt.1:18, 20.) Its
high time we take a careful look at this strange but well-
nigh universal doctrine among Catholics and Protestants!
Your own salvation could very well be at stake!!!

William F. Dankenbring
Mark 7:1-16.
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mark 7:1-16&version=NKJV

http://www.triumphpro.com/trinity-disproved.htm

The word trinity is like the word rapture and fallen angels. Those words never appear yet you can assume they exist based on context.

As for the trinity? Look at all these verses and triangulate the truth

Mathew 28:19 "Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:"

John 1:1 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."

John 1:14 "And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth."

John 8:19 "Then said they unto him, Where is thy Father? Jesus answered, Ye neither know me, nor my Father: if ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also."

John 8:58 "Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am."

John 10:30 "I and my Father are one."

John 10:36-37 "Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?37 If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not."

John 10:38 "But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him."

John 14:7 "If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him."

John 14:9 "Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?"

John 17:21 "That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me."

2 Corinthians 13:14 "The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost, be with you all. Amen."

1 Peter 1:2 "Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied."
Hebrews 13:8 "Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever."

 

[BigSodaExposer]

(Post removed as it was a quote of another member's post with no response to it. Obadiah)

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• Failing to answer someone’s question doesn’t necessarily amount to an admission of error or surrender but keep in mind that in any debate if you refuse to or can not answer a reasonable question, it may weaken your position.

 

[Dewey]

It is not the trinity doctrine that teaches three in one. That is what the Word of God teaches.
Here is what the Word of God teaches and is backed up by Scriptures
Jesus revealed to us that He has a Father.
Jesus is the only begotten of that Father
Jesus Himself taught that He and His Father are ONE, just as we are ONE with THEM
Jesus gave us an example of that ONEness, by telling us that a husband and wife are no longer twain but ONE flesh. Understand that simple principle and you will understand the trinity perfectly.
Jesus said He was ONE with His Father. Jesus said we can be ONE with Him.
if you would just click HERE, you would see a lot of the Scriptures which proves that Jesus is not the Father. No man has ever seen the Father, yet many have seen Jesus. click HERE for Trinity article

^i^

Dave, I liked and agree with what you said. Just thought I would expand on it a little more...

The Godhead (Trinity)

God describes himself as Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, and together these three are one God. What is the nearest example of this for us? Father, son, and mother, and these three are one family. While the Holy Spirit is not female it is still the example God gives to us.
The bible says that God is invisible, is a Spirit, and has been seen by no man. In like manner there is a spirit to every family; this spirit is felt (not seen) by those who come in contact with its family members. If we desire to better understand the Godhead we need only to look at the only creation made in his image.

(A&T Guidelines which were posted directly above this post: "Subsequent opposing responses should include references to supportive scripture relevant to the thread and offer explanation for the contrary understanding." This applies even to a post which expands on a previous post. Obadiah)

 

[Nintentacle]

Genesis 1:26-27
John 1:1, John 1:14
Acts 5:3, Acts 5:5
1 John 5:7
(A&T Guidelines which were posted in two posts directly above this post: "Subsequent opposing responses should include references to supportive scripture relevant to the thread and offer explanation for the contrary understanding." Obadiah)

 

[eddif]

Luke 11:31
The queen of the south shall rise up in the judgment with the men of this generation, and condemn them: for she came from the utmost parts of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and, behold, a greater than Solomonis here.

Sometimes we finally realize that we are centered on our favorite doctrine (and that can be good), and miss the broad picture. We can study the Jewish Solomon and miss the Gentile element ( not trying to bring Gentiles into trinity, but trying to see everything).

There is a separate description of each. Great Commission: Matthew 28:18
18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

One baptism, but separate persons and one goal.
John 17:21
21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:

Defined as separate and yet so much in agreement. It is hard for our natural minds to see the difference and total unity at one time.

Ephesians 2:15-16
15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:

Just as we are separate so he wants us together:
Jew, Gentile, male , female, bond, free, strong, weak etc.

Separate yet brought together.
Romans 1:19-20
19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

Many things created to understand one godhead.

eddif