The Trinity

[RandyK]

Have read Scripture: what mankind/men call amazing, Yahweh calls an abomination.

And what men call an "abomination" God may call "reasonably acceptable."

 

[Randy]

Act 2:25 For David says concerning him, “‘I saw the Lord always before me, for he is at my right hand that I may not be shaken;
Act 2:26 therefore my heart was glad, and my tongue rejoiced; my flesh also will dwell in hope.
Act 2:27 For you will not abandon my soul to Hades, or let your Holy One see corruption.
Act 2:28 You have made known to me the paths of life; you will make me full of gladness with your presence.’ (ESV)

acts 2:27 is God our Father did not abandon Jesus's body to decay. David was still buried to that very day so Peter was showing it was about Jesus not David.

Who is the "him" that Peter is speaking of here? It is clearly Jesus:

In that God did not abandon Jesus to the grave. That is concerning Jesus not David.

Act 2:23 this Jesus, delivered up according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God, you crucified and killed by the hands of lawless men.
Act 2:24 God raised him up, loosing the pangs of death, because it was not possible for him to be held by it. (ESV)

So? That doesn't make Him coeternal as Jesus wasn't delivered up by His plan but by Gods plan

The context is that of Jesus's death and resurrection, hence his quote of Ps. 16:8-11:

Psa 16:8 I have set the LORD always before me; because he is at my right hand, I shall not be shaken.
Psa 16:9 Therefore my heart is glad, and my whole being rejoices; my flesh also dwells secure.
Psa 16:10 For you will not abandon my soul to Sheol, or let your holy one see corruption.
Psa 16:11 You make known to me the path of life; in your presence there is fullness of joy; at your right hand are pleasures forevermore. (ESV)

But, clearly Ps. 16 is speaking about Yahweh, hence the capital "LORD." It is worth nothing that YHWH was translated into Greek as kurios in the Septuagint, which is also why the NT does the same. More than that, we see this in Hebrews 1:

Heb 1:8 But of the Son he says, . . .
Heb 1:10 And, “You, Lord, laid the foundation of the earth in the beginning, and the heavens are the work of your hands;
Heb 1:11 they will perish, but you remain; they will all wear out like a garment,
Heb 1:12 like a robe you will roll them up, like a garment they will be changed. But you are the same, and your years will have no end.” (ESV)

Same writer.
In the past God spoke to our ancestors through the prophets at many times and in various ways, 2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe
God created by His Son.

Who is speaking "of the Son"? The Father, obviously. And what he says is from another Psalm, which is attributed to Yahweh:

He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him.

Psa 102:25 Of old you laid the foundation of the earth, and the heavens are the work of your hands.
Psa 102:26 They will perish, but you will remain; they will all wear out like a garment. You will change them like a robe, and they will pass away,
Psa 102:27 but you are the same, and your years have no end. (ESV)

God spoke to us in these last days by His Son. The Father living in Him doing His work.
God created by His Son. My reasoning is the same. The Father living in Him doing His work.

So, we have both Peter and the writer of Hebrews strongly implying that the Son is also Yahweh. Then we have Paul:

We have God performing His works through/by His Son.
He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him.
Grace and peace to you from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
I don't see what you state.

Rom 10:9 because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
Rom 10:10 For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved.
...
Rom 10:13 For “everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.” (ESV)

And believe GOD raised Him from the dead...
Jesus is Lord as GOD has placed all things in His hands. And at the name of Jesus all will bow and declare Him Lord. To the glory of God our Father.
If it stated if you confess Jesus is God you might have a point.

Paul is clearly equating confessing that "Jesus is Lord" with calling "on the name of the Lord," for salvation. And, as you likely know, verse 13 is a quote from Joel 2:32: "And it shall come to pass that everyone who calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved." (ESV)

He didn't state if you confess Jesus is God. He also stated one God defined as the Father. As in GOD our Father.
The Lord said to my Lord...
God stated to Davids sovereign.

Paul, too, is strongly implying that Jesus, the Son, is also Yahweh. Of course, that is only one of several times he does so.

No He isn't. Jesus is the image of Yahweh.

And John also does so throughout his gospel, not the least of which is:

Joh 12:36 While you have the light, believe in the light, that you may become sons of light.” When Jesus had said these things, he departed and hid himself from them.
Joh 12:37 Though he had done so many signs before them, they still did not believe in him,
Joh 12:38 so that the word spoken by the prophet Isaiah might be fulfilled: “Lord, who has believed what he heard from us, and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?”
Joh 12:39 Therefore they could not believe. For again Isaiah said,
Joh 12:40 “He has blinded their eyes and hardened their heart, lest they see with their eyes, and understand with their heart, and turn, and I would heal them.”
Joh 12:41 Isaiah said these things because he saw his glory and spoke of him. (ESV)

Jesus explained things to His disciples and spoke in parables to others as a fulfillment to John 12:40

Kind of like when John the Baptist stated:But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to his baptism, he said to them, “Brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
God's will was to resist those "brood of vipers"



However God, our Father spoke to us in these last days by His Son

I had everything answered but had to chop it down as it exceeded 10,000 words and would not post.

 

[Randy]

No, Jesus's being was defined by another will
Col 1:19

Free asked: What do you mean by "Jesus's being was defined by another will"? I don't know what that means.

The fullness "was pleased" to dwell in Him. -From the will of another. Why the need if Jesus is Deity as is God our Father?

He is all that the Father is but is not coeternal

Free stated:Then he cannot be all that the Father is, not even close. It goes far beyond just not being coeternal. It seems that you haven't really studied the nature of God much.


Free stated:And, again, please clearly show how "begotten" is different from "made" or "created."

As I state the Father alone is Deity and its His Deity living in Jesus, all the fullness of God, and He and the Father are one. If He and the Father share that Deity in unity and are one how could Jesus NOT be all that the Father is? They are ONE.

I think maybe you should contrast the words begotten vs unbegotten. Jesus is begotten the Father alone is unbegotten.

 

[Randy]

Your argument was: "God from true God not true God from true God."

The Father in the NT is the source of all things. Even the truth/message Jesus delivered. He is also the source true God in the creeds. Jesus is from Him. The Deity would remain His. The fullness was pleased to dwell in Jesus. It is and remains the Fathers Deity. God from true God. The Father is living in the Son and they are ONE.

I responded: "There is only true God, not God and true God."

Yes identified by Jesus as God His Father. Its clear to me.
Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.

Of course Jesus is not the Father. That completely misses the point. You believe that the Son is "God from true God," but my point is that there is no such thing. There is only true God. If the Son is also God, then it necessarily follows that he is true God. What happens with your position is that the following verses make God out to be a liar:

Is Jesus God?Context has been shown and Jesus is not a liar.
He never dies.
Yes, He is all that the Father is.
No, He has always been the Son.

Deu 4:35 To you it was shown, that you might know that the LORD is God; there is no other besides him.
…
Deu 4:39 know therefore today, and lay it to your heart, that the LORD is God in heaven above and on the earth beneath; there is no other. (ESV)

Deu 32:39 "'See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god beside me; I kill and I make alive; I wound and I heal; and there is none that can deliver out of my hand. (ESV)

Isa 43:10 "You are my witnesses," declares the LORD, "and my servant whom I have chosen, that you may know and believe me and understand that I am he. Before me no god was formed, nor shall there be any after me. (ESV)

Isa 44:6 Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the LORD of hosts: “I am the first and I am the last; besides me there is no god. (ESV)

Isa 45:5 I am the LORD, and there is no other, besides me there is no God; I equip you, though you do not know me,
Isa 45:6 that people may know, from the rising of the sun and from the west, that there is none besides me; I am the LORD, and there is no other. (ESV)

You make Jesus a lesser god, which is polytheism, and a created god at that.

Jesus and the Father are one and the fullness of the Deity of God His Father dwells in Him bodily. A bodily resurrection.
You think it unusual that ones own God and Father are considered greater?
The Deity in the Son is the Fathers and they are one. Gifted not formed. Col 1:19 In that manner Jesus is a begotten God not coeternal.

Not begging a question, begging the question, which is a fallacy, an error in reasoning.


Okay, what does this have to do with what I stated?

These are very select verses which you are taking out of context:

What do you think this verse is stating that has to do with what I stated? I gave Gen. 1:26, where Yahweh uses plural personal pronouns of himself: "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness" (Gen. 1:26). Why did you avoid addressing that by posting something that has no bearing on it?

What made you think I didn't believe Jesus was involved in every aspect of the creation?
"Let us"
But I reason the Deity that was pleased to dwell in Jesus is the Fathers as He is the only true God and therefore God created by His Son just as God spoke to us in these last days by His Son.

I don't read this and remove Jesus from the creation as I read all that is written of Him.
All things come by God are Father
“You are worthy, our Lord and God, to receive glory and honor and power, for you created all things, and by your will they were created and have their being.”

 

[Free]

acts 2:27 is God our Father did not abandon Jesus's body to decay. David was still buried to that very day so Peter was showing it was about Jesus not David.

In that God did not abandon Jesus to the grave. That is concerning Jesus not David.

Never mind what I said about this. I rather put my foot in it and am not sure what I was thinking. You are correct.

So? That doesn't make Him coeternal as Jesus wasn't delivered up by His plan but by Gods plan

That it was God’s plan doesn’t mean Jesus wasn’t coeternal. Phil. 2:5-8 is key.

Same writer.

What does this have to do with it? Of course the same writer is the one who wrote all of Hebrews, but he writes a number of different things.

In the past God spoke to our ancestors through the prophets at many times and in various ways, 2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe
God created by His Son.

Yes, God created by the Son, but he created everything that ever came into being by his Son. The only logical conclusion is that the Son has always existed; he cannot have come into existence.

He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him.

Yes, and:

Joh 1:3 All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made. (ESV)

Again, only one logical conclusion--the Son must have always existed.

God spoke to us in these last days by His Son. The Father living in Him doing His work.
God created by His Son. My reasoning is the same. The Father living in Him doing His work.

You seem to have missed the point--the writer of Hebrews says that the Father says the Son is also Yahweh. There is simply no other way to understand Heb. 1:10-12.

We have God performing His works through/by His Son.
He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him.
Grace and peace to you from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
I don't see what you state.

When there is no other way to see it, it's because you don't want to.

Heb 1:8 But of the Son [the Father] says,
...
Heb 1:10 And, “You, [YHWH], laid the foundation of the earth in the beginning, and the heavens are the work of your hands; (ESV)

The Father calls the Son Yahweh. There is no other way around that fact. Everything that came into existence, came into existence through the Son. Therefore, the Son has always existed. The argument is sound and the logic is inescapable.

And believe GOD raised Him from the dead...
Jesus is Lord as GOD has placed all things in His hands. And at the name of Jesus all will bow and declare Him Lord. To the glory of God our Father.
If it stated if you confess Jesus is God you might have a point.

The is exactly my point. Jesus is YHWH is the confession by which one is saved. That is the parallel that Paul makes to Joel 2:32.

He didn't state if you confess Jesus is God. He also stated one God defined as the Father. As in GOD our Father.
The Lord said to my Lord...
God stated to Davids sovereign.

Again, Paul makes the parallel for a reason. He is saying that confessing Jesus is Lord is the same as calling on the name of Yahweh. That is how one is saved.

No He isn't. Jesus is the image of Yahweh.

Yes, he is. The two aren't mutually exclusive. Again, you're first assuming that Yahweh is only the Father, but that is nowhere stated in the Bible.

Jesus explained things to His disciples and spoke in parables to others as a fulfillment to John 12:40

That is simply dodging what I said. John said Isaiah saw Jesus's glory, but whom Isaiah saw was Yahweh. The consistent message throughout John's gospel is that Jesus is truly God and truly man.

Kind of like when John the Baptist stated:But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to his baptism, he said to them, “Brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
God's will was to resist those "brood of vipers"

I don't understand your point here.

However God, our Father spoke to us in these last days by His Son

Yes, I know. What is your point?

I had everything answered but had to chop it down as it exceeded 10,000 words and would not post.

It happens a lot with these long posts.

 

[Free]

The Father in the NT is the source of all things. Even the truth/message Jesus delivered. He is also the source true God in the creeds.

I agree.

Jesus is from Him. The Deity would remain His. The fullness was pleased to dwell in Jesus. It is and remains the Fathers Deity. God from true God. The Father is living in the Son and they are ONE.

But, again, you're making Jesus a god. You're saying that god came from true God. However, as I pointed out, there was, is, and ever will be only one God (or god), so if Jesus is said to be "from God," he cannot be "God from true God," but rather must be "true God from true God," as the Nicene Creed correctly states.

Yes identified by Jesus as God His Father. Its clear to me.

Your claims are contradictory. There is no such thing as true God and God (or god). There is only true God, so the Son cannot be God from true God. The Son is as the Father is, as is the case with all sons and fathers.

Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.

This doesn't preclude Jesus from also being God just as the Father is God. It's important to note that salvation is found in knowing both the Father and the Son.

Is Jesus God?Context has been shown and Jesus is not a liar.

Jesus is God, but since there is only one true God an no other, then the Son necessarily is also truly God just as the Father is.

He never dies.

Which doesn't make him God. Believers will never die, but that doesn't make us God.

Yes, He is all that the Father is.
No, He has always been the Son.

Yes, your contradictory statements. According to your own position, the Son cannot be all that the Father is. Your arguments have completely ruled that out. Only according to the historic, orthodox position can the Son be all that the Father is, while remaining distinct.

Jesus and the Father are one and the fullness of the Deity of God His Father dwells in Him bodily. A bodily resurrection.
You think it unusual that ones own God and Father are considered greater?
The Deity in the Son is the Fathers and they are one. Gifted not formed. Col 1:19 In that manner Jesus is a begotten God not coeternal.

That doesn't address the passages I gave. Again, you are making Jesus a lesser god, which is polytheism, and a created god at that.

What made you think I didn't believe Jesus was involved in every aspect of the creation?

Because you don't think he has absolute existence ("eternal preexistence"), like the Father. That means he came into being at a point in time, which would have been the beginning of creation, and would completely contradict John 1:1-3, 10, 1 Cor. 8:6, Col. 1:16-17, Heb. 1:2, 10-12.

"Let us"
But I reason the Deity that was pleased to dwell in Jesus is the Fathers as He is the only true God and therefore God created by His Son just as God spoke to us in these last days by His Son.

You do realize that while Jesus was both God and man, that creation occurred long before Jesus was born, yes? You keep arguing to Jesus, the God-man, while ignoring the preexistence of the Son.

Whose image were humans created in? God's. According to you, that is only the Father. But, the point with Gen. 1:26-27 is that there is plurality when God speaks to himself, despite humans then being created in the image of God (singular). There is a clear change from plural personal pronouns to singular:

Gen 1:26 Then God said, “Let us make man in our image, after our likeness. And let them have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the heavens and over the livestock and over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.”
Gen 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them. (ESV)

We are made in the image of Yahweh, which is to say, in the image of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit. One God, three coeternal, coequal, consubstantial Persons.

 

[Randy]

Never mind what I said about this. I rather put my foot in it and am not sure what I was thinking. You are correct.


That it was God’s plan doesn’t mean Jesus wasn’t coeternal. Phil. 2:5-8 is key.

Doesn't make Him coeternal either.

What does this have to do with it? Of course the same writer is the one who wrote all of Hebrews, but he writes a number of different things.

God created through Him. Is clearly shown. Showing Jesus created doesn't mean to take away from the truth that God, our Father created by His Son. A Son who is called Mighty God, Prince of peace, everlasting Father. He's not coeternal.

Yes, God created by the Son, but he created everything that ever came into being by his Son. The only logical conclusion is that the Son has always existed; he cannot have come into existence.

No my conclusion is just as the Deity in Christ, the Father, spoke to us in these last days by His Son, the Deity in the Son, the Father created by His Son. The Father is unbegotten. God our Father created by, for, and through His Son. From God our Father ALL things come. Even the truth/message Jesus and His Spirit, the Spirit of truth, testify to.
When a God such as ours states No God was formed before me I note He stated "was formed". The only thing I know with certainty is that "if" the Father has a beginning it couldn't be by any other being. As in unbegotten. Jesus is begotten.

Yes, and:

Joh 1:3 All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made. (ESV)

Again, only one logical conclusion--the Son must have always existed.

Just as all things were placed into Jesus hands doesn't mean God Himself who placed all things in His hands. I would state all things created through Jesus doesn't mean His own Spirit for He also is from the Father. A Firstborn Son.

You seem to have missed the point--the writer of Hebrews says that the Father says the Son is also Yahweh. There is simply no other way to understand Heb. 1:10-12.

The Father Himself calls Jesus God. It is therefore lawful to do so and in context of Jesus being all that the Father is would be truth as well. But Yahweh is Jesus's God and Father. Jesus is not He. He is one with Yahweh as He testified to not as you believe.

You love righteousness and hate wickedness; therefore God, your God, has set you above your companions by anointing you with the oil of joy.

When there is no other way to see it, it's because you don't want to.

Heb 1:8 But of the Son [the Father] says,
...
Heb 1:10 And, “You, [YHWH], laid the foundation of the earth in the beginning, and the heavens are the work of your hands; (ESV)

The Father calls the Son Yahweh. There is no other way around that fact. Everything that came into existence, came into existence through the Son. Therefore, the Son has always existed. The argument is sound and the logic is inescapable.


The is exactly my point. Jesus is YHWH is the confession by which one is saved. That is the parallel that Paul makes to Joel 2:32.


Again, Paul makes the parallel for a reason. He is saying that confessing Jesus is Lord is the same as calling on the name of Yahweh. That is how one is saved.


Yes, he is. The two aren't mutually exclusive. Again, you're first assuming that Yahweh is only the Father, but that is nowhere stated in the Bible.


That is simply dodging what I said. John said Isaiah saw Jesus's glory, but whom Isaiah saw was Yahweh. The consistent message throughout John's gospel is that Jesus is truly God and truly man.


I don't understand your point here.


Yes, I know. What is your point?


It happens a lot with these long posts.

Likewise there is no other way to see this. It just doesn't fit your theology.
Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, AND Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.
It's clear to me Jesus Himself declared God His Father as the only true God. He did not include His person in that declaration of being the true God. Only applies to God His/our Father.
This is not a possible answer:True God from True God.

Jesus is the Firstborn of all creation and in Him it did please the fullness to dwell and through Him, By Him and For Him God our Father created all things.

I agree in part:
Begotten of the Father alone before all things but not made.

 

[JLB]

I agree in part:
Begotten of the Father alone before all things but not made.

 

[JLB]

The is exactly my point. Jesus is YHWH is the confession by which one is saved. That is the parallel that Paul makes to Joel 2:32.

Beautiful.

 

[Randy]

Jesus declares Yahweh is God His Father how then can He be Yahweh?

 

[jonathanbrickman0000]

The word "trinity" has quite a few different definitions, churchic and not, including Mithraic. I shall agree with anyone who agrees with that which God has caused to be written in Holy Scripture, and shall not consider that word to be important at all.

 

[JLB]

Jesus declares Yahweh is God His Father how then can He be Yahweh?

Please post the scripture where Jesus says YHWH is God His Father.

so that He may establish your hearts blameless in holiness before our God and Father at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all His saints. 1 Thessalonians 3:13


Behold, the day of the LORD is coming,
And your spoil will be divided in your midst…
Thus the LORD my God will come,
And all the saints with You.
Zechariah 14:1,5

• Thus the LORD my God will come, and all the saints with You

If the Godhead is YHWH Elohim then each individual divine Person of the Godhead is YHWH.

 

[Free]

Jesus declares Yahweh is God His Father how then can He be Yahweh?

Because the Father says the Son is also Yahweh in Heb. 1:10-12. Again, you're fallaciously begging the question by first assuming that only the Father is Yahweh, but that is nowhere stated in Scripture. It's keeping you closed to the plain and obvious meaning of passages such as Rom. 10:9-13 and Heb. 1:10-12, and sets up a true God and a lesser god, which is polytheism.

 

[Free]

The word "trinity" has quite a few different definitions, churchic and not, including Mithraic. I shall agree with anyone who agrees with that which God has caused to be written in Holy Scripture, and shall not consider that word to be important at all.

You might as well say that the words monotheism, omnipotence, omniscience, or any other number of words that sum important biblical ideas aren't important. "Trinity" is important as it is a one-word summation of what God has revealed--"caused to be written in Holy Scripture"--about himself, about his very nature that is central to everything else in the Bible. There is nothing wrong with using words such as trinity or triune.

 

[jonathanbrickman0000]

You might as well say that the words monotheism, omnipotence, omniscience, or any other number of words that sum important biblical ideas aren't important.

And so I do say. The words "monotheism", "omnipotence", "omniscience", and every other word by which sinful men and women push reasonings to fit their opinions concerning what they have read or heard of involving Holy Scripture, do not matter. They are not important. They are all almost nothing at all, in the face of that which God Himself has said. Are you familiar with how the Lord treated everyone near Him who was "reasoning", whether in spoken words or only silently?

"Trinity" is important as it is a one-word summation of what God has revealed--"caused to be written in Holy Scripture"--about himself, about his very nature that is central to everything else in the Bible. There is nothing wrong with using words such as trinity or triune.

"Trinity" is a word used very often indeed by sinful men and women proud of their reasonings, to glorify those reasonings, to enforce their sworn oaths of evil prejudice, and to promulgate their desires to glorify themselves and people like them.

Like any word, it can have uses which are not evil. But we do not have it written that God has used that word Himself, and therefore, it is not very important.

 

[Free]

And so I do say. The words "monotheism", "omnipotence", "omniscience", and every other word by which sinful men and women push reasonings to fit their opinions concerning what they have read or heard of involving Holy Scripture, do not matter. They are not important. They are all almost nothing at all, in the face of that which God Himself has said.

But they are important none the less as they sum what God has said. Some people use such words to make discussions easier and others don't, but that doesn't mean that those who don't are any less sinful or any less opinionated than those that do. It can, and often is, a sign of pride and self-righteousness, a false piety, to reject such words since there is nothing inherently wrong with them.

Are you familiar with how the Lord treated everyone near Him who was "reasoning", whether in spoken words or only silently?

Apparently not. Please enlighten me.

"Trinity" is a word used very often indeed by sinful men and women proud of their reasonings, to glorify those reasonings, to enforce their sworn oaths of evil prejudice, and to promulgate their desires to glorify themselves and people like them.

I guess some sinful men and women use such words and the rest don't, and are no less sinful for not using them, since they sinfully reason and are proud of those reasonings even with small words.

Like any word, it can have uses which are not evil. But we do not have it written that God has used that word Himself, and therefore, it is not very important.

That makes it no less important.

 

[Free]

Doesn't make Him coeternal either.

No, but the conclusion of all the evidence when considered together can only be that the Son is as eternal as the Father is.

God created through Him. Is clearly shown. Showing Jesus created doesn't mean to take away from the truth that God, our Father created by His Son.

Again, what does this have to do with anything? I have never stated otherwise. The whole point is that if everything was created through the Son, if everything that ever came into existence had its beginning through the Son, then the Son must always have existed. There is no other logical conclusion.

A Son who is called Mighty God, Prince of peace, everlasting Father. He's not coeternal.

If he is not coeternal, then he cannot, by definition, be called Might God.

No my conclusion is just as the Deity in Christ, the Father, spoke to us in these last days by His Son, the Deity in the Son, the Father created by His Son.

That is your conclusion, yes, but it is not the logical conclusion. Are you saying that the Son is only deity because the Father is in the Son or somehow otherwise put deity in the Son (for lack of a better way of saying it)?

The Father is unbegotten. God our Father created by, for, and through His Son. From God our Father ALL things come.

Yes, I know and agree. The issue is that you're denying the obvious, logical conclusion: if "From God our Father ALL things come," points to is absolute existence, then "through whom are all things" points to the Son's absolute existence. Again, the conclusion is inescapable as the argument is sound.

Even the truth/message Jesus and His Spirit, the Spirit of truth, testify to.
When a God such as ours states No God was formed before me I note He stated "was formed".

What do you think "was formed" refers to? His only point is that there was no God before him and there will be none after. Why? Because he is the only God.

Isa 43:10 “You are my witnesses,” declares the LORD, “and my servant whom I have chosen, that you may know and believe me and understand that I am he. Before me no god was formed, nor shall there be any after me. (ESV)

This completely rules out Jesus being God, according to your position.

The only thing I know with certainty is that "if" the Father has a beginning it couldn't be by any other being. As in unbegotten. Jesus is begotten.

You are erroneously conflating two different things which seriously muddles up your theology, namely, the Son and Jesus. As I have pointed out, Jesus came into being through Mary, being both truly God and truly man. The Son, the Word, has always existed and is who Jesus was prior to being born.

To be "begotten" as you're incorrectly using it, would mean that the Son was "formed," and therefore cannot be God, according to Isa. 43:10. Only one God, ever. If, as you believe, only the Father is truly God, then the Son is precluded from being God. Again your position piles up with contradiction.

Just as all things were placed into Jesus hands doesn't mean God Himself who placed all things in His hands. I would state all things created through Jesus doesn't mean His own Spirit for He also is from the Father. A Firstborn Son.

I have no idea how that addresses what I said, which is a plain understanding of Scripture:

Joh 1:3 All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made. (ESV)

Again, only one logical conclusion--the Son must have always existed.

The Father Himself calls Jesus God. It is therefore lawful to do so and in context of Jesus being all that the Father is would be truth as well. But Yahweh is Jesus's God and Father. Jesus is not He. He is one with Yahweh as He testified to not as you believe.

You're playing fast and loose with what the Bible says. The Father calls Jesus Yahweh, thereby proving the multiplicity within the one God as hinted at in Gen. 1:26-27. Besides, if, as you say, "The Father Himself calls Jesus God," then the only logical conclusion is that the Son actually and truly is God in the very same way that the Father is God. Why? Because as we have seen, Yahweh himself says he is the only God and there never was nor will be another.

You love righteousness and hate wickedness; therefore God, your God, has set you above your companions by anointing you with the oil of joy.

Heb 1:8 But of the Son he says, “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever, the scepter of uprightness is the scepter of your kingdom.
Heb 1:9 You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness; therefore God, your God, has anointed you with the oil of gladness beyond your companions.” (ESV)

Psa 45:6 Your throne, O God, is forever and ever. The scepter of your kingdom is a scepter of uprightness;
Psa 45:7 you have loved righteousness and hated wickedness. Therefore God, your God, has anointed you with the oil of gladness beyond your companions; (ESV)

Once again, the Father is saying that the Son is also Yahweh. You're again completely contradicting your position.

Likewise there is no other way to see this. It just doesn't fit your theology.
Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, AND Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.
It's clear to me Jesus Himself declared God His Father as the only true God. He did not include His person in that declaration of being the true God. Only applies to God His/our Father.
This is not a possible answer:True God from True God.

This is to take such things completely out of context by ignoring, John 1:1-3, 10, 18, John 20:28 (really, the whole book of John), Rom. 10:9-13, 1 Cor. 8:6, Phil. 2:6-8, Col. 1:16-17, Heb. 1:2, 8-12, etc.

Given that Yahweh himself says he is the only God and that there would never be another, supporting the core biblical idea of monotheism, the only logical conclusion is that the Son is truly God just as the Father is, that it can only be "true God from true God."

The only other possibility is polytheism, but that contradicts Scripture.

Jesus is the Firstborn of all creation and in Him it did please the fullness to dwell

Col 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.
Col 1:16 For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him.
Col 1:17 And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together.
Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church. He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in everything he might be preeminent. (ESV)

"Fristborn" doesn't actually "born." That would mean he was the first created thing and simply calling it being begotten wouldn't change that. It would also totally contradict verses 16 and 17. It means, as verse 18 states, that he is preeminent, that he is sovereign over all things, which is in complete agreement with verses 16 and 17.

and through Him, By Him and For Him God our Father created all things.

Exactly, which can only mean that he has always existed, otherwise all things could not have been created through him and by him.

I agree in part:
Begotten of the Father alone before all things but not made.

It means one and the same the way you are using it. If the Son hasn't existed for all "eternity past," just as the Father has, then the only conclusion is that he came into existence, which means he was created or made. Calling it "begotten" doesn't change that fact.

 

[Randy]

No, but the conclusion of all the evidence when considered together can only be that the Son is as eternal as the Father is.

OR the eternal life found in the Son is the Father. Atheists and unbelievers live in the flesh. The clear implication is life without end.

Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on me will live because of me.

Again, what does this have to do with anything? I have never stated otherwise. The whole point is that if everything was created through the Son, if everything that ever came into existence had its beginning through the Son, then the Son must always have existed. There is no other logical conclusion.

God created through the Son. Not just the Son created.

If he is not coeternal, then he cannot, by definition, be called Might God.

If He and the Father are one then He can and is called Mighty God. He is all that the Father is. Again "it pleased the fullness to dwell in Him" -another defined His being -as in begotten.

That is your conclusion, yes, but it is not the logical conclusion. Are you saying that the Son is only deity because the Father is in the Son or somehow otherwise put deity in the Son (for lack of a better way of saying it)?

The Son,His spirit, is not deity in Himself as is God our Father. The Deity in the Son is and remains God our Father. That Deity acts on His point of will as if He were the Father Himself. Hence God created by His Son and all the Fathers works the Son of Man performed. God was the Logos. The begotten God

Yes, I know and agree. The issue is that you're denying the obvious, logical conclusion: if "From God our Father ALL things come," points to is absolute existence, then "through whom are all things" points to the Son's absolute existence. Again, the conclusion is inescapable as the argument is sound.

No as stated God created by His Son.

What do you think "was formed" refers to? His only point is that there was no God before him and there will be none after. Why? Because he is the only God.

I think God speaking as a God such as Himself stated No God was formed before Him nor a God such as Himself formed after Him.
Rather then there was No God before Him nor will there be one after Him.

Isa 43:10 “You are my witnesses,” declares the LORD, “and my servant whom I have chosen, that you may know and believe me and understand that I am he. Before me no god was formed, nor shall there be any after me. (ESV)

This completely rules out Jesus being God, according to your position.

Jesus was clear He did not include His person in the Declaration of who the only true God was. I prefer His truth. I follow Him.

You are erroneously conflating two different things which seriously muddles up your theology, namely, the Son and Jesus. As I have pointed out, Jesus came into being through Mary, being both truly God and truly man. The Son, the Word, has always existed and is who Jesus was prior to being born.

Rather Jesus has always been the Son.

To be "begotten" as you're incorrectly using it, would mean that the Son was "formed," and therefore cannot be God, according to Isa. 43:10. Only one God, ever. If, as you believe, only the Father is truly God, then the Son is precluded from being God. Again your position piles up with contradiction.

He and the Father are one as He taught and He is all that the Father is and in that context He is God just not coeternal.

I have no idea how that addresses what I said, which is a plain understanding of Scripture:

Joh 1:3 All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made. (ESV)

Again, only one logical conclusion--the Son must have always existed.

He is from the Father as a Son. The only reasonable conclusion is that He is begotten. He has a God and Father the only reasonable conclusion is God formed His spirit. The Father is God our Father and the only true God. The only reasonable conclusion is Jesus is not the true God.

You're playing fast and loose with what the Bible says. The Father calls Jesus Yahweh, thereby proving the multiplicity within the one God as hinted at in Gen. 1:26-27. Besides, if, as you say, "The Father Himself calls Jesus God," then the only logical conclusion is that the Son actually and truly is God in the very same way that the Father is God. Why? Because as we have seen, Yahweh himself says he is the only God and there never was nor will be another.

The Father states He is the God of Jesus. The Son states the Father is His God. Jesus is not the true God but the begotten God.

John 1:18 Greek Text Analysis

Heb 1:8 But of the Son he says, “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever, the scepter of uprightness is the scepter of your kingdom.
Heb 1:9 You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness; therefore God, your God, has anointed you with the oil of gladness beyond your companions.” (ESV)

Jesus has a place on His Fathers throne forever. The throne of God and of the lamb.

Psa 45:6 Your throne, O God, is forever and ever. The scepter of your kingdom is a scepter of uprightness;
Psa 45:7 you have loved righteousness and hated wickedness. Therefore God, your God, has anointed you with the oil of gladness beyond your companions; (ESV)

Once again, the Father is saying that the Son is also Yahweh. You're again completely contradicting your position.

Therefore God, YOUR GOD... It's clear to me Jesus is not the true God.

This is to take such things completely out of context by ignoring, John 1:1-3, 10, 18, John 20:28 (really, the whole book of John), Rom. 10:9-13, 1 Cor. 8:6, Phil. 2:6-8, Col. 1:16-17, Heb. 1:2, 8-12, etc.

Given that Yahweh himself says he is the only God and that there would never be another, supporting the core biblical idea of monotheism, the only logical conclusion is that the Son is truly God just as the Father is, that it can only be "true God from true God."

I have from Jesus who the only true God is. No reasoning needed. God His Father, God our Father.

The only other possibility is polytheism, but that contradicts Scripture.

I have from Jesus He and the Father are one just as Jesus and those in Him are one.
And as stated its the Fathers Deity in Him any other nor His own.
Why do you think it's written, " if we become faithless He will remain faithful for He can not disown Himself? They are one. Jesus and us are one.

Col 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.
Col 1:16 For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him.
Col 1:17 And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together.
Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church. He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in everything he might be preeminent. (ESV)

All things were created through Him and FOR Him speaks of another.
Col 1:19 -from the will of another.

"Fristborn" doesn't actually "born." That would mean he was the first created thing and simply calling it being begotten wouldn't change that. It would also totally contradict verses 16 and 17. It means, as verse 18 states, that he is preeminent, that he is sovereign over all things, which is in complete agreement with verses 16 and 17.

About the Son
Hebrews 1:6

Greek Concordance: πρωτότοκον (prōtotokon) -- 3 Occurrences

Exactly, which can only mean that he has always existed, otherwise all things could not have been created through him and by him.

God our Father did create all things through Him. Already finished.
God also spoke to us in these last days BY His Son. The Deity of the Father in Him doing His work.
God created all things BY His Son. The Deity of the Father in Him doing His work.

It means one and the same the way you are using it. If the Son hasn't existed for all "eternity past," just as the Father has, then the only conclusion is that he came into existence, which means he was created or made. Calling it "begotten" doesn't change that fact.

WE disagree

 

[Randy]

Because the Father says the Son is also Yahweh in Heb. 1:10-12. Again, you're fallaciously begging the question by first assuming that only the Father is Yahweh, but that is nowhere stated in Scripture. It's keeping you closed to the plain and obvious meaning of passages such as Rom. 10:9-13 and Heb. 1:10-12, and sets up a true God and a lesser god, which is polytheism.

And yet the Son Himself states His God is the only true God. God our Father is to Jesus God His Father. The one Jesus calls Yahweh is His God. If Yahweh is His God them Jesus can not be Yahweh.

Again we shall disagree. Jesus while all that the Father is can not be coeternal.

 

[Randy]

Please post the scripture where Jesus says YHWH is God His Father.

so that He may establish your hearts blameless in holiness before our God and Father at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all His saints. 1 Thessalonians 3:13


Behold, the day of the LORD is coming,
And your spoil will be divided in your midst…
Thus the LORD my God will come,
And all the saints with You.
Zechariah 14:1,5

• Thus the LORD my God will come, and all the saints with You

If the Godhead is YHWH Elohim then each individual divine Person of the Godhead is YHWH.

I know who the only "true" God is and it is YHWH as Jesus CLEARLY stated.
Jesus is NOT His own God and Father.
GOD our Father reconciled all things to HIMSELF through Jesus's blood on the cross.
God set all things under Jesus, God appointed Jesus heir of all things, God created all things for Jesus. That shouldn't suggest to you Jesus is coeternal. God commanded all His angels to bow to the Firstborn HE brought into the world. Why the need for all this if Jesus is coeternal?

What part of Jesus that descended from above was in the body prepared for Him if NOT His own spirit? And we read it is His spirit.

If Jesus always was and always was God how does this believe in one God for He stated "Father into your hands I commit MY Spirit"?