The Trinity

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Free and Fastfredy0,

There isn’t one verse in the entire Bible that clearly or directly states that God is an absolute unity (unitarian; one person).

I consider the following is teaching that God is One:
Deuteronomy 6:4 (KJV): Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:

Mark 12:28–31 (KJV): 28 And one of the scribes came, and having heard them reasoning together, and perceiving that he had answered them well, asked him, Which is the first commandment of all? 29 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord: 30 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment. 31 And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.

Seems to be a contradiction.

Your comment is obscure. I find no contradiction in this passage.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Free]

Greetings again Free and Fastfredy0,

I consider the following is teaching that God is One:
Deuteronomy 6:4 (KJV): Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:

Mark 12:28–31 (KJV): 28 And one of the scribes came, and having heard them reasoning together, and perceiving that he had answered them well, asked him, Which is the first commandment of all? 29 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord: 30 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment. 31 And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.

Your comment is obscure. I find no contradiction in this passage.

Kind regards
Trevor

Deut 6:4, and its use and confirmation by Jesus, is a statement of monotheism only. Every anti-Trinitarian conflates the idea of absolute unity with monotheism, but those are two distinct ideas.

Again, there is no verse in the entire Bible that clearly or directly states that God is an absolute unity.

 

[CherubRam]

That isn’t a helpful response, as I could tell you to take off your opaque unitarian glasses, and that gets us nowhere.

I do agree they are simple and clear. In Gen 1:26 God is clearly using plural personal pronouns in deciding to make humans, and then verse 27 switches to singular personal pronouns of God when he makes humans. It only states that we are made in God’s image, not angels.

So, while on its own it doesn’t prove the Trinity, a plain reading leaves the door open for a triune God as it strongly implies a plurality within the one God. There isn’t one verse in the entire Bible that clearly or directly states that God is an absolute unity (unitarian; one person).

There are many verses that say Yahwah is the only God, and there is no other.

 

[CherubRam]

No. You made a claim, so the onus is on you to provide support. And, once again, please provide the Bible translation you quoted.

נעשה
The words (let us) do not exist in that Hebrew word.

נעשה - Wiktionary, the free dictionary

en.wiktionary.org

 

[Fastfredy0]

Your comment is obscure. I find no contradiction in this passage.

I guess I will have to spell it out then (didn't think I'd have to)

Premise 1:

I do not believe that the Angels "take on human form"

Premise 2:

Hebrews 13:2 Be not forgetful to entertain strangers: for thereby some have entertained angels unawares.​

Now, since people interacted with angels and didn't know they were interacting with angels, it is evident that the angels were in human form. Therefore your premise that angel do no take human form is proven wrong.

 

[Free]

נעשה
The words (let us) do not exist in that Hebrew word.

נעשה - Wiktionary, the free dictionary

en.wiktionary.org

Again, you have given nothing in support of that assertion. The only evidence you provided actually supports it. Wikitionary is not support.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Fastfredy0,

I guess I will have to spell it out then (didn't think I'd have to)

The reason why I questioned your statement is that I was uncertain how you understand what Angels are actually like. Do you view them the same as depicted in art, similar to human form but with very large wings? Or possibly ghost-like spirits with no physical substance?

Now, since people interacted with angels and didn't know they were interacting with angels, it is evident that the angels were in human form. Therefore your premise that angel do no take human form is proven wrong.

What I am suggesting is that Angels were not in human form, but appeared as they actually are, substantial physical beings, but not dependent on air and blood. Man was made in their image, but a little lower in that man is dependent on air and blood. Jesus in his resurrected form was the same body but changed to immortality. The immortal body is naturally glorious in appearance, but it is evident that they can withhold this glory. Moses and Elijah in the Transfiguration appeared in glory with Jesus and this is a vision of what they and all the faithful will be like in the resurrection.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[CherubRam]

Again, you have given nothing in support of that assertion. The only evidence you provided actually supports it. Wikitionary is not support.

2 Peter 1:20
Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet’s own interpretation of things.

You are accepting an interpretation in place of a translation. "Let us" is a personal interpretation in place of a translation. Scholars have taken liberties in translating the bible do to their own personal beliefs.

 

[Free]

2 Peter 1:20
Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet’s own interpretation of things.

You are accepting an interpretation in place of a translation.

And so are you.

"Let us" is a personal interpretation in place of a translation. Scholars have taken liberties in translating the bible do to their own personal beliefs.

Yet, you have not provided support for your assertion.

 

[CherubRam]

And so are you.


Yet, you have not provided support for your assertion.

Perhaps later I will make a photo copy of my NIV. Bye for now.

 

[Free]

Perhaps later I will make a photo copy of my NIV. Bye for now.

What for? I’m asking for proof of your assertions about what the Hebrew says, not what the NIV says.

 

[Milan Nikolic]

It is clear that the Trinity plays an important role in various religions, but the Christian tradition offers unique and invaluable arguments.

In a word, triadology in the traditional Church reveals to us what Christ promised us, that we will be in the communion and unity of God himself.

 

[CherubRam]

It is clear that the Trinity plays an important role in various religions, but the Christian tradition offers unique and invaluable arguments.

In a word, triadology in the traditional Church reveals to us what Christ promised us, that we will be in the communion and unity of God himself.

Christ was a Orthodox Jew. Orthodox Jews do not believe in Trinitarianism. The Messiah (Yahshua) did not come to introduce Paganism. Being one is referring to unity.

John 17:11
I will remain in the world no longer, but they are still in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, protect them by the power of your name, the name you gave me, so that they may be one as we are one.

John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

John 17:22
I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one—

 

[Milan Nikolic]

Lest we be misunderstood, I believe that Christ is the Son of God, who existed before the creation of the world and who became man. He revealed to us that God is a communion of Three Persons, but that He is essentially indivisible, and that it is right to believe in the Holy Trinity as one God.

In Christianity we have two foundations, we have the God-man as Savior, and we have salvation as union with the triune God. There are many fine explanations about one God in the Holy Trinity, but it is understood that one should first believe in the Holy Trinity.

 

[Free]

Christ was a Orthodox Jew. Orthodox Jews do not believe in Trinitarianism.

Orthodox Jews also didn't, and don't, believe that the Messiah would come to die for their sins. Jesus was God in the flesh--two natures, human and divine, in one person.

The Messiah (Yahshua) did not come to introduce Paganism.

Of course not; the Trinity isn't pagan.

 

[CherubRam]

Orthodox Jews also didn't, and don't, believe that the Messiah would come to die for their sins. Jesus was God in the flesh--two natures, human and divine, in one person.


Of course not; the Trinity isn't pagan.

What was unique about the God of Abraham was that Yahwah was not a trinity like the Pagan gods.

 

[CherubRam]

Lest we be misunderstood, I believe that Christ is the Son of God, who existed before the creation of the world and who became man. He revealed to us that God is a communion of Three Persons, but that He is essentially indivisible, and that it is right to believe in the Holy Trinity as one God.

In Christianity we have two foundations, we have the God-man as Savior, and we have salvation as union with the triune God. There are many fine explanations about one God in the Holy Trinity, but it is understood that one should first believe in the Holy Trinity.

Holy Spirit

Before it was determined that the Holy Spirit was a third person of a Trinity, (by the Catholics in the 4th century) it was understood that "Holy Spirit" was a title for the Father.

Genesis 1:2
Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.

Leviticus 24:15
15 Say to the Israelites: ‘Anyone who curses their God will be held responsible; 16 anyone who blasphemes the name of (the Lord / Yahwah) is to be put to death.

Matthew 12:31
And so I tell you, every kind of sin and slander can be forgiven, but blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven.

Luke 12:10
And everyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven.

John 4:24
God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in the Spirit and in truth.”

Revelation 4:8
Each of the four living creatures had six wings and was covered with eyes all around, even under its wings. Day and night they never stop saying: “‘Holy, holy, holy is (the Lord / Yahwah) God Almighty,’

 

[Free]

What was unique about the God of Abraham was that Yahwah was not a trinity like the Pagan gods.

He was, since he doesn't change and has revealed himself to be triune in the NT, he just didn't necessarily or clearly reveal that he was triune, but there were hints that he wasn't unitarian.

 

[Free]

Holy Spirit

Before it was determined that the Holy Spirit was a third person of a Trinity, (by the Catholics in the 4th century) it was understood that "Holy Spirit" was a title for the Father.

Genesis 1:2
Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.

Leviticus 24:15
15 Say to the Israelites: ‘Anyone who curses their God will be held responsible; 16 anyone who blasphemes the name of (the Lord / Yahwah) is to be put to death.

Matthew 12:31
And so I tell you, every kind of sin and slander can be forgiven, but blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven.

Luke 12:10
And everyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven.

John 4:24
God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in the Spirit and in truth.”

Revelation 4:8
Each of the four living creatures had six wings and was covered with eyes all around, even under its wings. Day and night they never stop saying: “‘Holy, holy, holy is (the Lord / Yahwah) God Almighty,’

Where is your evidence that '"Holy Spirit" was a title for the Father'? None of the passages you gave support that without fallaciously begging the question.

 

[Milan Nikolic]

What was unique about the God of Abraham was that Yahwah was not a trinity like the Pagan gods.

It will always be true that God is one. Indeed, the essence of God is one, indeed one will of God is being carried out, but only Christians have a theology of such a one God in the Holy Trinity.

Some things cannot be proven to everyone, after all. The Christian faith is based on Love, and love implies community. That is why we are saddened by, for example, Muslims, because their God is single.