The Trinity

[Imagican]

Your words are ONLY damaging to YOURSELF. You have NO ability to make such judgements EXCEPT as to your OWN condemnation.

I Love God, I love God's Son and MY Savior; Jesus Christ. YOU have NO power to change that with your empty words of hate.

That some believe that Christ is God does NOT limit God or Christ or bind them in 'man's conceptions'.

So, if you would like to discuss the issue as concerning scripture, by all means, let us do so. But if you think you can accomplish anything by simply STATING IT, you will be hard-pressed to IMPRESS anyone here.

Blessings,

MEC

 

[herald]

The Scripture teaches the Triune God...Don't you believe the Scripture?

 

[Imagican]

While I have HEARD this statment before, I contend that scripture teaches TRUTH. PLEASE show me where you found 'trinity' in scripture. Or a 'triune god' for that matter. Instead of spouting out useless accusations, a little EVIDENCE would be nice.

While those that 'created trinity' used some pretty potent methods to instill this doctine into MOST of Christianity, even THEY will TELL you that God most CERTAINLY works OUTSIDE of 'their church'. So even the 'creators of trinity' would not attack others as YOU have over and over.
At least not in THESE times.

Making such accusations as to WHO is and WHO isn't saved. Hmmmmm........Christ didn't even offer such accusations towards mere UNDERSTANDING issues. He stated that He came NOT to 'judge the world', but to SAVE IT. And remember these words uttered by an innocent man as He was being NAILED to a cross, "Forgive them Father for they know not what they do''.

It is THIS Spirit that I follow. The Spirit of LOVE that was offered as an example through the LIFE of Christ Jesus. And I have NO MEANS to judge the Salvation of another. It is EASY to MAKE such accusations. But Christ Himself offered, "Judge NOT lest YE be JUDGED''. This is to SHOW us that what ever we THINK we know is USUALLY not even CLOSE to the TRUTH. So, when we decide to JUDGE others, we should BEWARE lest we judge UNRIGHTEOUSLY. For it is NOT up to US to JUDGE others, but to offer the EXAMPLE that was offered US in Christ Jesus.

Blessings,

MEC

 

[herald]

Jesus: Almighty: Rev 1:8
Jesus: "Before Abraham:" John 8:58
Jesus: "Creator:" John 1:3
Jesus: "Emmanuel:" Mt 1:23 "God with us"
Jesus: "God:" Lu 1:47;John 1:1;Jude 25
Jesus: "Image of the Invisible God:" Col 1:15
Jesus: "Lord of Lords:" 1 Tim 6:15;Rev 19:16
Jesus: "Mighty God:" Isa 9:6
Jesus: "Everlasting Father:" Isa 9:6
Jesus: "Son of God:" Mt 16:16;17:5;Lu 1:35;John 10:36

"But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled your heart to lie to THE HOLY GHOST...thou hast not lied unto men, BUT UNTO GOD." Acts 5:3,4.

 

[francisdesales]

Christ stated that He is the "Son of God''. You SAY that He is God Himself. Yet Christ STATED that The Father, (God Himself), IS 'Greater than Himself'.

Only in the sense that the Word was flesh. The Father was not flesh. However, the Word was still God, as well. The Word submitted Himself in loving obedience - but the Father gave the Son ALL that He was/is to the Son. Thus, they are indeed equally God.

Now, since God will not even LOOK upon sin, He certainly would NOT have 'taken ON' the sins of the world. That is WHY He sent HIS SON; to 'take on the flesh' and DIE for our sins, (suffer the sins of this world).

This merely means that Jesus took on the punishment due sin, death. By submitting to death, God was greatly glorified, conquering it as a human being, with the abillity that only God has.

What you have offered is little different than a 'church' that would tell some poor crippled girl that is not healed that it's HER fault for 'lack of faith'. That is not only 'dangerous theology', it is quite cruel and un-heart felt.

Or even more dangerous, when one continues to pretend that the Spirit dwells in them, but not the Church...

As a matter of FACT, it states that we must simply accept Christ into our hearts. And ALL that I have read in scripture concerning Christ is that He IS The SON of God. These words being HIS OWN admission.

You have Jesus as merely a moral teacher, when he portrayed Himself as someone sent from God - but more than just a prophet, someone who sees God Himself, someone more than human, someone who God created through and was with God before time - and WAS God.

Read John's Gospel more carefully without your seive you run the Bible through. I believe that the onus is upon you to disprove that Jesus was God, since the Trinity is a well-established doctrine that is universally believed among practically every Christian.

 

[Imagican]

Fran,

Firstly, you have NOT offered ANY explanation concerning the USE of the word WORD. Why would John be SO cryptic in his offering? I mean, he could have MUCH EASIER used the NAME of Jesus Christ if this was HIS INTENT. Instead, he used Word.

The indication is that The Word is EXACTLY what it states that IT IS: The Word OF God. Not some mystical euphemism for Christ Himself. But LITERALLY; the Word OF God.

Now IF John was simply refering TO Christ, The Son of God, why would he be SO MYSTICAL about it?

Secondly, God WAS 'greatly glorified' in that HIS ONLY BEGOTTEN SON was ABLE to fulfill what He was SENT to DO. You say it was 'God' upon the cross. I say it was God's SON that suffered AS WELL as His Father. His Son suffered the ACTUAL punishment for sin, but The Father suffered JUST as MUCH through His SON having to suffer so. For there is not a TRULY LOVING parent on this planet, or even God in Heaven, that would not GLADLY suffer for the SAKE of their CHILD, IF they were ABLE.

Fran, I do NOT know if The Spirit dwells within ANY particular denomination. I can say that MOST that I am aware of teach 'false doctrine' to one extent or another. It would SEEM that IF The Spirit WERE present, then there would be NO opportunity for 'falsehoods' to exist. I don't BELIEVE that Paul EVER taught ANYTHING 'false' ONCE he became Spirit filled. But SOON after, most that HE taught, began to be 'followers of OTHER MEN'.

No, NO, I have NEVER portrayed Christ as merely a 'moral teacher'. Christ EXISTED in HEAVEN with The Father PREVIOUS to OUR creation. Christ WAS THE SON OF GOD before WE existed. His 'taking on the flesh' had NO bearing on HIS beginning AS The Son. It was simply perpetuated INTO the 'coming of Christ IN the flesh'.

And Fran, something being well-establilshed or universally accepted does NOT make it THE TRUTH. There was 'a time' that The church taught that the Earth was the CENTER of the universe. In that they were PROVEN WRONG. There was 'a time' that The church taught indulgences. They were WRONG. There was 'a time' when The church taught MANY things that they were WRONG in their teachings. And 'at the time', these THINGS were UNIVERSALLY believed and WELL-ESTABLISHED.

So, you would attempt to discredit my offerings simply because they do NOT agree with what YOU have come to accept. If it was simply that those that TAUGHT you were able to convince you that they were RIGHT because of their being WELL-ESTABLISHED or 'universally acceptance, then that is your choice. But I can assure you that there have been MANY that THOUGHT that their 'church' was teaching truth, only to find later that it was only THEIR truth.

Now, I have offered this before and let me offer it AGAIN: God is NOT going to destroy a WORLD FULL OF HIS FOLLOWERS. So, the evidence should dictate that IF you find a 'group' that EVERYONE is RUSHING to FOLLOW, it would ONLY prove that this group was appealing TO THE WORLD and NOT the acutal following of God or His Son. For the WORLD follows IT's OWN.

For STRAIGHT is the gate and NARROW the WAY that leadeth UNTO life and FEW there be that FIND it.

Do you NOT think that these words have relevance? The indication is that 'at the time' Satan becomes manifest in the flesh, by the END of his seven year reign, there will possibly BE only TWO of God's VERY elect LEFT on the planet. But I can ASSURE you that 'religion' CALLED Christianity WILL BE as BIG as EVER. Yet these will BELIEVE that Satan is GOD Himself and WILLINGLY follow him to their own destruction. These words are pretty clearly spelled out in Revelation. Like it or NOT, we have been TOLD that there will be FEW that follow IN TRUTH.

So, you can continue to 'rib me' for 'being a church of one'. If it somehow gives you pleasure or comfort to BELIEVE such, then so be it. But what I am concerned for MORE than ANYTHING else is that I be ABLE to offer the truth regardless of HOW POPULAR it is. That is what I have been COMMANDED to DO. And I do NOT speak lightly when I DO. I can PROMISE you that you are NO MORE sincere in YOUR belief than I am IN MINE.

So, numbers mean LITTLE to me so far as truth. For the WORLD itself IS LOST. And there are MANY more members of this world than in ANY denomination. So, the wisdom or teachings of that which pertains to this world have NO BEARNING on the truth. There's where numbers are able to offer PROOF in the OPOSITE direction than YOU would have us believe.

There was 'a time' when there was NO 'trinity' IN Christianity. That is FACT. The apostles taught NO SUCH WORD as 'trinity'. You would offer that Christianity is an EVOLVING religion. That it took TIME for GOD LED people to SEE the truth in 'trinity'. I say that this is 'false teaching'. That once The Church was FORMED, that it's UNDERSTANDING was COMPLETE. It was the coming of 'false prophets that was INCOMPLETE. That the EVOLVING has been AWAY from God and TOWARDS this world ever SINCE. For we were WARNED at the TIME of the apostles that there were ALREADY those that had 'gone out from AMONG THEM' that had ALTERED the TRUTH into something of their OWN MAKING. It has only waxed worse and worse ever since.

But there will ALWAYS remain a remnant. Those that TRULY trust in God and His Son. And these will ALWAYS defend The TRUTH no matter what. Will the world LISTEN? NOT likely. But SOME individuals MAY just do that. And it's not UP TO US to 'save the world'. Just plant the seeds or water. Those that God WANTS to love Him WILL and those that want to love 'something else' will do THAT as well. Nothing NEW under the sun.

Blessings,

MEC

 

[SonByAdoption]

by Free on Sat Mar 01, 2008 12:53 pm

Imagican wroteâ€ÂYou SAY possibly the FIRST hundred years AFTER His death but there is OBVIOUSLY no 'proof' of this statement.

Free wrote Ignatius (AD 30-107):
"There is one Physician who is possessed both of flesh and spirit; both made and not made; God existing in flesh; true life in death; both of Mary and of God; first passible and then impassible,â€â€even Jesus Christ our Lord."

There is your proof. The idea that Jesus was God was around for a long time prior to the Council of Nicea in 325.

Hello Free. How are you doing today? I saw your discussion between yourself and Imagican that you were trying to prove that Christians believed in the trinity before 325 which is futile. Yes you showed where Ignatius clearly believed that Jesus was God and not a created being but this in no ways proves that he believed in a 3in1 God or a trinity.

Ignatius (AD 30-107):
there is but one unbegotten Being, God, even the Father; and one only-begotten Son." ("Ante-Nicene Fathers," Volume 1, Ignatius, "To the Philadelphians," chapter 5)

"...Jesus Christ. He, being begotten by the Father before the beginning of time was...the only-begotten Son, and remains the same for ever; for "of His kingdom there shall be no end," says Daniel the prophet." ("Ante-Nicene Fathers," Volume 1, Ignatius, "To the Magnesians," chapter 6)

"But our Physician is the only true God, the unbegotten and unapproachable, the Lord of all, the Father and Begetter of the only-begotten Son. We have also as a Physician the Lord our God, Jesus the Christ, the only-begotten Son and Word, before time began, but who afterwards became also man, of Mary the virgin." ("Ante-Nicene Fathers," Volume 1, Ignatius, "Epistle of Ignatius to the Ephesians," chapter 7)

Ignatius believed in One God unbegotten the Father and His only begotten Son. Jesus is God because of the nature He inherited from the Father when He was born from Him in eternity and this is what Bible Believing Christians believed before 325 and the Council of Nice before there was ever an Arian who beleives Jesus was created and is not really the Son of God or a Trinitarian who beleives Jesus never had a beginning and is not really the Son of God contrary to Micah 5:2 that states clearly that the Messiah's "...orgin has been from old,from the days of eternity".

 

[mutzrein]

Saying that Jesus is God because he inherited the nature of His father is like saying that I am my father because I inherited his nature.

No. My father has a human nature and I inherited his nature but I am not my father. Likewise, God's nature is divine. As His son, Jesus inherited his divinity but this does not make him God.

 

[Free]

Saying that Jesus is God because he inherited the nature of His father is like saying that I am my father because I inherited his nature.

No. Jesus is God because he is of the same nature as the Father. But this does not make him the Father, it makes him God just as the Father is also God.

No. My father has a human nature and I inherited his nature but I am not my father. Likewise, God's nature is divine. As His son, Jesus inherited his divinity but this does not make him God.

Jesus has inherited nothing; he is in nature God. No mere creature can inherit the nature of God.

 

[Free]

Yes you showed where Ignatius clearly believed that Jesus was God and not a created being but this in no ways proves that he believed in a 3in1 God or a trinity.

I proved what I intended prove.

 

[Love25]

Should you believe it? Do you believen in the Trinity? Most people in christendom do. After all, it has been the central doctrine of the churches for centuries.
In view of this, you would think that there could be no questions about it. But there is, and lately even some of its supporters have added fuel to the controversy.
Why should a subject like this be of any more than passing interest? Because Jesus himself said "Eternal like is this: to know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent forth". John 17:3 So our entire future hinges on our knowing the true nature of God, and that means getting to the root of the Trinity controversy. Therefore, why no examin it for ourself?

I were told that in order to understand Trinity I need to have Holy Ghost but it seems that even christians dont understand it!

Peace

 

[francisdesales]

Firstly, you have NOT offered ANY explanation concerning the USE of the word WORD. Why would John be SO cryptic in his offering? I mean, he could have MUCH EASIER used the NAME of Jesus Christ if this was HIS INTENT. Instead, he used Word.

Cryptic? It is quite simple. You are making it difficult.

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. John 1:1

John later writes:

That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life; (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us;) That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us. 1 John 1:1-3

We are told this so we can experience God Himself. God in the flesh. The immutable Almighty God has humbled Himself and taken on the form of a human, like us in all ways but sin. This is the primary witness of the Apostles - that we may know God through our experience of Jesus. We can KNOW GOD!

Then said they unto him, Where is thy Father? Jesus answered, Ye neither know me, nor my Father: if ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also. John 8:19

Our experience of Jesus is an experience of the Father. Thus, your human decision to separate the Father from the Son, the Word Who was with the Father from before the beginning of time, has separated yourself from knowing the Father. You cannot know the Father unless you know the Son. How can you "know the Son" if you do not know the identity that He has revealed of Himself?

Is this important to understand and BELIEVE that?

You be the judge...

Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world. I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins John 8:23-24.

The Jews were quite familiar with the implications of "the name" and "I am He". The Apostles taught this, as well, for to the Jews, the "NAME" refered to God Himself. What other "NAME" do you think the Jews had in mind?

Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved Acts 4:12

Are you suggesting that this does NOT refer to God??? Do the Jews teach that there is a DIFFERENT savior for mankind besides God??? Jesus did not set up an opposing dichotomy between Himself and God. Read John 8 more carefully and more slowly, with the idea that Jesus IS the perfect image of God. He is not a "Moses" or a "prophet", not even an "angel". Only by the NAME of God can we be saved. Above, the Apostles clearly consider the NAME in this case to be "JESUS CHRIST", at whose name every knee shall bend - God Himself.

A closer examination of Scriptures will reveal that Jesus is God Himself. THIS is what He tells the Jews themselves that they must believe. To acknowledge that Jesus bears the divine name is to accept that in Him, the one and ONLY God of Israel is being disclosed. NOT as a prophet or an angel. The Bible nowhere speaks of any prophet or angel in this way. Only the Son, who it has been revealed was "with God and was God". Jesus is NOT merely telling the Jews to believe that God sent Him as some sort of prophet!!! He performs the Work of God because He IS God!!!

Alleluia...!

I urge you to put aside your hatred and close-mindedness, since one's mind is not "open to the Scriptures" if one has already passed judgment and will not hear that God often exceeds our wildest expectations. Don't put God in a box of your making. Accept that God has REVEALED Himself.

Regards

 

[SonByAdoption]

FREE wrote
"Who did God then love before Creation?"

IMAGICANwrote
I guess the answer that you are looking for is 'Himself'?
For if Jesus IS God, and HE created EVERYTHING, then He could ONLY have loved HIMSELF previous to 'creation'.

"...the glory which I had with thee before the world was."..." what is his name, and what is His Son's name, if thou canst tell?""Then I was by him, as one brought up with him: and I was daily his delight, rejoicing always before him;" John 17:5;Proverbs 30:4&8:30

Before all of creation and before all of time "in the days of eternity"Micah5:2 God the Father gave birth to His only begotten Son who is the "express image[Charakter-precise reproduction in every respect] of His person." Hebrews 1:3 Christ is His true and literal Son and is equal in nature to Himself, the only being in the universe who could ever really understand God because He Himself inherited His Father's Divine Love and this is who God loved before creation.

God loved His only begotten Son more than life itself and if it would have been possible to exchange places with Him in the plan of salvation and give up His Almighty Divine powers so he could be born a man and to go through 33 years suffereing and being tempted by his own creations who are like worms compared to him and then to be humilliated and unappreciated and tortured dieing both body and soul on a cross, the Father would have changed places with His Son in a instant. He had to watch His only Divine Son suffer and die for us. That must have been So much suffering for Him to do to give up the one who He cherished the most for our salvation. This is truly the Love of God.

"In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.""He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?" 1st John 4:9;Romans 8:32

 

[SonByAdoption]

Catholic Crusader wrote

» Wed Jun 18, 2008 3:32 pm
"Lastly, theologically speaking, if God is Jesus Father, that means He shares God's nature. Since God is perfect and cannot be divided into pieces (if He could He would not be perfect) that means Jesus is God by nature. A dog cannot give birth to a cat because they do not share the same nature, and God cannot be Father of a being that does not share His nature."

I think I understand what you're talking about. Your saying that a dog can give birth to another dog and there would be two dogs and the cat can give birth to another cat and and there are two cats but Almighty God doesn't have the power to do what he gave His creations to do. Oh No, God can't give birth to another God. That would be polytheism, let us invent the sacriligious and blasphemous doctrine of the trinity/eternal generation that says that Jesus never started and never finished being born from God which is clearly against the scriptures that teaches that "...in the days of eternity"Jesus "proceeded forth[past tense]and came from God."Micah 5:2;John 8:42

God is perfect and he pefectly begat a perfect reproduction in every respect/Charakter or "...express image of His person"Hebrews 1:3

I beleive in 2 Gods even through I am not a trinitarian or a polytheist.

Because I know that even though God's only begotten Son is God over all of creation.Isaiah 9:6&John 20:28 The Bible calls the Father the "One God"1st Corin 8:6 and the "Only true/original God"John 17:3 because He is not only God over all creation,He is God over His Only Begotten Son who is uncreated and equal in nature to Himself as well.

"... and the counsel of peace shall be between them BOTH.""...what is His Name and what is HIS SON'S name if thou can's tell""...son of man, and he came even to the ancient of days"Zechariah 6:13 Proverbs 30:4 Daniel 7:13

The counsel of peace or God's plan of salvation was between them both only two. No third individual present. In Proverbs 30:4 Solemen talked about God and His only begotten Son creating all created things and He asks what is His name which is Yahweh and what is His Son's name which is Yesheua so where is this third nameless individual who the so called christians ignorantly worship but the ancient israelites knew nothing about. They say He is a thirdperson but he is really no person at all.
And there is no third person. Ancient Israelites worshiped God and His only begotten Son and they never knew of a third individual and revelation tells us that the angels worship the Father who sits on the throne of the universe and the lamb of God but never is there ever one hint in the Bible that we are supposed to worhship the holy spirit. I am afraid for you trinitarians. My heart is heavy when I think about you all of you my family at home, my church, my entire denomination who is supposed to be God's true church but they have turned into trinitarians worshiping a third God who doesn't exist. They are really worshipping satan unawares.

 

[Joe67]

Peter's confession that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the living God was approved by Jesus. This is an important revealing by the Father. But this revelation and testimony was not sufficient enough truth to prevent Peter from those attitudes and actions that occurred when he pulled out the sword and cut off the ear of the servant of the high priest.

This perplexed my heart and mind for some years. Then God led me through a similar trial of faith. Caught up in the whirlwind of events, not trying to imitate Peter's action but absorbed in my own personal situation, my reaction was the same as Peter's. The Lord gives me to see this after many years. Eventually the Lord gave me the personal assurance that he had forgiven me and restored me. Even this work of his grace I did not at first understand its scope, since I was so accustomed of thinking of God and Jesus Christ within the framework of thought and words that the commercialized institutional organizations have taught.

Peter's testimony after Calvary and resurrection and the teaching of Jesus to open the disciples mind to understand the things concerning Jesus from Moses, the Psalms, and the prophets was markedly different than his earlier testimony. The earlier testimony was a very necessary schoolmaster to prepare the disciples for their great disappointment at the death of Jesus. This disappointment was necessary to prepare them for the overwhelming joy of the resurrected Jesus, though unbelief was heavy upon their hearts and minds. Then through instruction from Moses, the Psalms and the Prophets, Jesus rolled away the clouds of doubt and unbelief in regard to the eternal purpose of God the Father in His Son, Jesus, and the body that the Father had chosen for the Son before the world began, and God's purpose in Jesus and his body, the church, to minister to the nations the mystery of God.

What does this have to do with "Trinity?" Paul wrote in 1 Corinthians 11:29,30 that not discerning the Lord's body makes us weak and sickly and sleep.

Ephesians 1 tells concerning this body and its head that the Father planned from the beginning, and sums it up in verses 22 and 23.
Eph 1:22-23
22 and he put all things in subjection under his feet, and gave him to be head over all things to the church,
23 which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all. ASV

This body, the church, is a temple for the holy Spirit.
1 Cor 6:19-20
19 Or know ye not that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit which is in you, which ye have from God? and ye are not your own;
20 for ye were bought with a price: glorify God therefore in your body. ASV

We are individually members in particular of this body.
1 Cor 12:26-27
27 Now you are Christ's body, and individually members of it. NAS

We individually are given a measure of faith and grace. Individually we have not the fullness in the gifts and calling that God gives to us through Jesus Christ. The entire body is the shadow of the sufferings of Christ, abiding under the shadow of the Almighty. In Jesus we have all things.

Joe

 

[epistemaniac]

While I have HEARD this statment before, I contend that scripture teaches TRUTH. PLEASE show me where you found 'trinity' in scripture. Or a 'triune god' for that matter. Instead of spouting out useless accusations, a little EVIDENCE would be nice.

While those that 'created trinity' used some pretty potent methods to instill this doctine into MOST of Christianity, even THEY will TELL you that God most CERTAINLY works OUTSIDE of 'their church'. So even the 'creators of trinity' would not attack others as YOU have over and over.
At least not in THESE times.

Making such accusations as to WHO is and WHO isn't saved. Hmmmmm........Christ didn't even offer such accusations towards mere UNDERSTANDING issues. He stated that He came NOT to 'judge the world', but to SAVE IT. And remember these words uttered by an innocent man as He was being NAILED to a cross, "Forgive them Father for they know not what they do''.

It is THIS Spirit that I follow. The Spirit of LOVE that was offered as an example through the LIFE of Christ Jesus. And I have NO MEANS to judge the Salvation of another. It is EASY to MAKE such accusations. But Christ Himself offered, "Judge NOT lest YE be JUDGED''. This is to SHOW us that what ever we THINK we know is USUALLY not even CLOSE to the TRUTH. So, when we decide to JUDGE others, we should BEWARE lest we judge UNRIGHTEOUSLY. For it is NOT up to US to JUDGE others, but to offer the EXAMPLE that was offered US in Christ Jesus.

Blessings,

MEC

Jesus most certainly made such judgments, both during His earthly ministry and spoke of a judgment to come.... the parable of the sheep and goats for instance.... Jesus makes it clear that anyone who does not believe in Him is condemned already, as in John 3:18....

Jesus does make it clear that we are not to judge hypocritically, as He condemns the Pharisees for doing just his in Matt. 7:1ff... and so if I were to say something like "the doctrine of the Trinity is false", while at the same time believing it to be the truth of God, then yes, I would fall under Jesus' condemnation regarding hypocritical judging. As it is, however, I do not fall under this condemnation regarding my view of those who deny the Trinity. There is only 1 Jesus, 1 true Jesus that actually possesses existence... that is the Jesus that must be believed in in order to be saved. The nature of this Jesus is taught in Scripture to be both God and man. (Other scriptures reveal that the Holy Spirit is a person and is yet God as well.) So when we use the word "Trinity" it is just shorthand for what the bible teaches about the nature of God. This is the only God that exists, thus any other god that people try to teach us or others to believe in is in fact a false god, an idol, one that does not exist except in the imaginations of sinful profane men and women. The same is true for any doctrine that says Jesus is not God, this "Jesus" is nothing more than a figment of someone's humanistic imagination. Thus, any who believe in God, and this God is not trinitarian in nature, is believing in a false god. Now, for the moment I do not ask you to agree with me in regard to the Trinity, but just to see it from my point of view.... based on what these beliefs are, how could I say that someone could believe in "God", define that "God" to be something to what I believe to be contrary to Scripture, eg non-trinitarian, and at the same time say that I likewise believe that such a person would be saved? Of course I couldn't. Not everyone who says they believe in God is automatically saved. James 2:19 (ESV) You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believeâ€â€and shudder!" Likewise, it is not enought o say that you "believe" in Jesus... which Jesus do you believe in is the question, and the age old question is still relevant... "who do men say that I Am?" The answer to this is that Jesus is both God and man, anyone who denies this denies the Christ.

blessings,
ken

 

[Imagican]

Since YOU started it, it should NOT be a problem if I state what I BELIEVE.

I believe that ANYTHING worshiped AS God OTHER THAN God IS a 'false god'. Therefore, IF Christ is NOT God HImself, the worship of Christ AS God is to worship a 'false god'.

We were even told that those that DENY The Son ARE anti-Christ.

I simply accept what is offered according to HOW it is offered instead of MAKING UP what I CHOOSE for it so say.

Blessings,

MEC

 

[SonByAdoption]

Imagician wrote

"I believe that ANYTHING worshiped AS God OTHER THAN God IS a 'false god'. Therefore, IF Christ is NOT God HImself, the worship of Christ AS God is to worship a 'false god'."

Who is this uncircumsied of heart magician who continually speaks blasphemies against the Son of the Most High calling Him a false god?

God the Father of Love who you claim is your God does not believe His only born Son who was born from Him and is the "express image[Character/exact reproduction in every respect] of HIs person"does not believe that His Son is a false god.

But to the Son he says, “Your throne, O God."is forever and ever,and the scepter of your kingdomis a righteous scepter.

God the father who you say is your God recognizes the complete deity and equality of His only born Son with Himself. Although he does not worship His Son. He does not call Him My God like the Son worships His true Father and His true God who gave birth to Him in eternity as we see in the next verse.
God the Father is not a trinitarian.

You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness.That is why God, your God,[The God of You]anointed you rather than your companions with the oil of gladness.†Hebrews 1:9

It is alright to be against the trinity but it is not alright to deny God's only born Son worship. God the Father told the angels in heaven to worship the Son of the Most High. But instead of following the example of God's holy angels you instead deny The Son of God worship and you are following the example of Satan and his demons.

It's alright not to worship the manmade invention the trinity. So don't worship Jesus as some 3inone God. God the Father alone is the King of the Universe. 1st Timothy 6:15,16. But Jesus Christ is His only true and literal Son and the Prince of the Universe so He is worthy of worship.

When you worship Jesus why not follow Joshua's example.
Notice that when Joshua worshipped Jesus, Jesus didn't say that "I am the 2nd person of some made up trinity" He said I am the supreme general of my Yahweh my Father's Armies, His Prince, His true Son so worship me and take off your shoes the place where you stand is holy. That was me paraphrasisng. I'll quote those verses now.

It happened, when Joshua was by Jericho, that he lifted up his eyes and looked, and behold, a man stood in front of him with his sword drawn in his hand. Joshua went to him, and said to him, "Are you for us, or for our adversaries?" He said, "No; but I have come now as commander of Yahweh's army." Joshua fell on his face to the earth, and worshipped, and said to him, "What does my lord say to his servant?" The prince of Yahweh's army said to Joshua, "Take your shoes off of your feet; for the place on which you stand is holy." Joshua did so.
Joshua 5:13-15

Dear MEC. God's only born Son is knocking on your heart everyday. Today is the day of salvation harden not your heart. Please stop denying the Christ by denying the messianic prophesies that prove that Christ is equal to His God. His only born Son is the only being in the universe who is equal to God in nature. The fact that Jesus said "my father is greater than I" does not mean that they He is not the only being in the niverse who is in fact equal in nature to God.

Mec you and me are human so we are equal in nature.We are two seperate humans not a two in one human. I wasn't saying that God is a two in one God. Anyways you and me are equal in nature but you are greater than me in age. So is the Father greater in age than His Son for God is the Ancient of Days but that doesn't prove that they are still not completely equal in nature. You are greater in me in knowlege just as the Father was greater in knowlege than His Son while His Son was on earth after giving up all His God powers but that still does not prove that they are not equal. For God is Love. and Christ is Love. Paul said that we can't ever know the heights and depts and breath of the love of Christ. I'm not sure where but I'll find the reference some other time.
God loved us because he gave His only born Son. Christ loves us because He died completerly bothy body and soul for us.He didn't have a spirit walking around and moving around after he was dead. Those two beings are equal in love to eachother.

Let me close by saying Paul tells us in Phlipians that one day everyone in the universe[which includes the devil and his angels and his followrs all the people who denyed Christ worship in their lifetimes] Every one will worship Christ one day. the Christians will worship Christ with him. The Sinners will worship Christ on their way to the lake of fire where God will anhilate them because God is loving and merciful, My prayer is for you to worship Christ in this lifetime instead of being one of those worshipping Christ on the way to their eternal destruction where it will be to late then.

 

[Paidion]

John 1:1 has been explained many times. Is the explanation unacceptable for some reason? Or is it simply being ignored?

John 1:1 does not teach that the Logos was God Himself.
How could the Logos be with God and also be God? That’s not what the text says.

The first “God†is prefixed with the article; thus “the God†(meaning the Father, whom Jesus addressed as “the only true Godâ€Â.). The second “God†has no article. So it does not refer to the Father.

Because of the lack of an article, some think the sentence should read “and the Logos was a godâ€Â. This is also an incorrect translation.


That would be the case if the subjective completion had been placed AFTER the copula verb.
If John had meant "The Word was a god", then the Greek words would have been:

á½Â....λογοÂ...ἠν......θεοÂ
the..word...was a...god

But this is not what John wrote.

If John had meant that the Word was God the Father Himself (as Modalists affirm), then the Greek words would have been:

á½Â....λογοÂ...ἠν ...á½Â...θεοÂ
the..Word...was..the..God

Prefixing the word "θεοÂ" with the article "á½Â" (with no other modifiers) would indicate that God the Father is meant. But that is not what John wrote.

Here is what John actually wrote:

θεοÂ..ἠν.... á½Â...λογοÂ
God..was...the..Word

John placed the subjective completion BEFORE the copula verb! What did John mean? Did he mean that God the Father was the Word? No! If he had meant that, he would have prefixed the word "θεοÂ" with the article "á½Â". What then was his meaning? As a person who has studied Hellenistic Greek for several years and has even taught a self-devised beginner's course to adults, I am going to propose a suggested translation, and then justify it by reference to other similar constructions in the New Testament.

A very crude translation could be "The Word was God-stuff". However, this doesn't sound very reverent. So I suggest "The Word was Divinity" or perhaps "The Word was divine". He was divine because God begat Him before all ages as Another just like Himself! "God" or "Divinity" was the essence of the Word.

Let's look at two more instances in the New Testament in which a subjective completion without a modifier is placed BEFORE a copula verb. In I John 4:8 and also in I John 4:16, we find the phrase:

á½Â...θεοÂ.. ἀγαÀη..á¼ÂÃĀιν
the God..love......is

Here the subject is clearly the Father since the word "θεοÂ" is prefixed with the article. But notice the subjective completion "ἀγαÀη" occurs BEFORE the copula verb "á¼ÂÃĀιν". The correct translation is: "God is love". Love is the essence of God. This is analagous to saying in John 1:1 that Divinity is the essence of the Word.

One more example:

á½Â....λογοÂ..á½Â...........ÃοÂ....ἀληθια...á¼ÂÃĀιν
the..word the [one]..of you reality....is

Translation: "Your word is reality". God's word is reality. There is never falsehood or unreality in what God says. Once again, the subjective completion "ἀληθια" comes BEFORE the copula verb "á¼ÂÃĀιν". Reality is the essence of what God says.

Martin Luther, whatever else he may have been, had an excellent understanding of Greek. Concerning the phrase in John 1:1:

θεοÂ..ἠν.... á½Â...λογοÂ
God..was...the..Word

Luther expressed quite succinctly what I have attempted to relate about the word order. He said:

"The lack of an article is against Sabellianism; the word order is against Arianism."

Sabellianism was a form of Modalism, that God is a single divine Individual who expresses Himself in three moes: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Today, Modalism is represented by the United Pentecostal Church as well as the various sects of the "Apostolic Church".

Arianism was and is thought by many to have been a position whereby the Son was a lesser god, and thus the translation "The word was a god". This position is represented today by Jehovah's Witnesses. The New World Translation actually renders the Greek phrase as "The word was a god.â€Â

So:

In the beginning was the Logos, and the Logos was with God, and the Logos was divine.

 

[Free]

Paidion,

I have made those arguments many times but they seem to fall on deaf ears for some reason. I would only disagree with "divine" for other reasons but the whole wording of John 1:1 is very specific, for good reason, as you have pointed out.