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This is not to be understood as Christ being the start of God's creation, as that would contradict many passages but rather it is to be understood as Christ being the "beginner" and "author" of creation.Before He was the Son, He was not yet created. What was the very beginning of the Father's creation?
Revelation 3:14 "And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God."
Christ is "the beginning of God's creation." Why was Christ the first thing God created?
Osgiliath said:Colossians 1:15 "He [Christ] is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
Colossians 1:16 For by Him [Christ] all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created by Him and for Him.
Colossians 1:17 And He is before all things, and by Him all things consist.
Colossians 1:18 And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence.
Colossians 1:19 For it pleased the Father that in Him all the fullness should dwell."
What is significant here is that the very context you are highlighting in Col 1 contradicts the idea that Jesus was created.Osgiliath said:Christ was to be The Father's instrument for all the rest of His creation.
Joh 8:58 Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am." (ESV)Osgiliath said:Nowhere in all of scripture, does Christ ever claim to be without a beginning.
Incorrect. You are taking these verses out of the context of the entirety of Scripture. You simply cannot divorce these texts from all that Scripture states. But such is the tactic of those who do not believe the Trinity. Indeed, for one to not be a trinitarian or to deny the deity of Christ and make him a mere creature, one must necessarily ignore many passages in Scripture or make them say something they do not say.Osgiliath said:To the contrary He confesses that He is the beginning of God's creation, that His Father is greater than He, and that His Father is His God:
Revelation 3:14 "And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God."
John 14:28 "Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I."
2 Corinthians 11:31 "The God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which is blessed for evermore, knoweth that I lie not."
Ephesians 1:3 "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ."
Ephesians 4:6 "One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all."
1 Peter 1:3 "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead."
God the Father created Christ to be the channel for His creation.
This is not to be understood as Christ being the start of God's creation, as that would contradict many passages but rather it is to be understood as Christ being the "beginner" and "author" of creation.
Act 3:15 and you killed the Author of life, whom God raised from the dead. To this we are witnesses. (ESV)
We must also consider what was already given in Rev 1:
What is significant here is that the very context you are highlighting in Col 1 contradicts the idea that Jesus was created.
Then who or what was he before he was the Son?
Before He was the Son, He was not yet created. What was the very beginning of the Father's creation?
Revelation 3:14 "And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God."
Christ is "the beginning of God's creation." Why was Christ the first thing God created?
Colossians 1:15 "He [Christ] is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
Colossians 1:16 For by Him [Christ] all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created by Him and for Him.
Colossians 1:17 And He is before all things, and by Him all things consist.
Colossians 1:18 And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence.
Colossians 1:19 For it pleased the Father that in Him all the fullness should dwell."
Christ was to be The Father's instrument for all the rest of His creation.
Nowhere in all of scripture, does Christ ever claim to be without a beginning. To the contrary He confesses that He is the beginning of God's creation, that His Father is greater than He, and that His Father is His God:
Revelation 3:14 "And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God."
John 14:28 "Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I."
2 Corinthians 11:31 "The God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which is blessed for evermore, knoweth that I lie not."
Ephesians 1:3 "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ."
Ephesians 4:6 "One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all."
1 Peter 1:3 "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead."
God the Father created Christ to be the channel for His creation.
The earliest Christians said Christ was begotten not made. The verse in Rev 3 can be translated origin also. Christ is the origin of God's creation.
Look, this is what it says. I don't try to pick holes in it.
[...]
The 'preparation' of The Personal Body of God 'started' with the formation of Adam and Eve, the seed of his coming flesh body started therein through the lineage of election in Israel Alone, with them, even IN them, working and showing His Ways, carried forward to THAT Glorious Day of Incarnation and Good News to men.
The Personal Body of God????????
Oh please. I take it that those who post here have a reasonable handle on the texts regarding this matter.Where on earth do you get that from? I've done a fair bit of reading of Scripture, but I can't find any such expression. My Strong's can't either.
If the Word presents same would it really matter if you saw it or not?Did you get this from some theologian or other? Sounds a bit theologian-ish to me, but not scriptural.
Again, a ho hummer.Glorious Day of Incarnation
And what about this????????
Observations of these matters came about to counter various heresies almost immediately in the N.T.I notice somebody above saying the Origen was struggling with Ps 2: 'Thou art my son, this day have I begotten thee' and comes up with trinitarian exegesis.
As if you are not likewise engaged? lolShame that. I've warned you guys about these theologians before. Here's another warning.
There is Romans 1 and there are reflections from readers. They diverge quite often.If he only had enough sense to look at what Paul said so simply in Romans 1, none of this would have happened.
4 And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:
That was the day that Jesus was officially confirmed to be the Son of God.
2 Corinthians 5:19There's no such thing as the day of incarnation in scripture. There's a declaration by the Son:
Which day? The Day of Resurrection, as Paul says above.
Depends on the intention of the reader to slice same to pieces. It's not an unusual phenomena.Begotten, incarnation and resurrection are not the same things by a long, long way. See my post above re 'conception'.
This, of course, is a doctrine (a teaching). I am wondering whether you know where it comes from? We do not find the Son in the Old Testament except as prophesy obout a future event. Eternal Sonship actually comes from Origen. He was having a problem with the second Psalm - specifically "You are my son, this day I have begotten you." Reading this it sounds as if the Son has a beginning, "this day I have begotten you." Origen was one of the first to attempt to work out a docrine (a teaching). If the three Persons of the Trinity are co-equal, and co-eternal, how then can the Son have a beginng? This is what Origen was struggling. His solution was to interpret the second Psalm passage "this day I have begotten you" as not meaning a point in time, but as the fundamental relationship between the Father and the Son. The Father is always "begetting the Son."
I do not think that this was the correct way to deal with the problem that Origen was trying to deal with. The Second Person of the Trinity was not "the Son" in the Old Testament. He became "the Son" in the New Testament. I realize that my position is not orthodoxy but i believe that mine best fits scritpture.
Jesus has always been the Son, but the Second Person of the Trinity has not always been Jesus. In the Old Testament we do not find "the Son" acting within the creation and Jesus has not been born. Yet the Second Person of the Trinity is thought to be at work in the Angel of the LORD.
I am not sure exactly what your are asking. In the Declaration of Independence Jeferson wrote: "We hold these truths to be self evident; that all men are created equal .... " To say that all men are created equal does not mean that they are all the same or that they even have equal talents. It only describes their equality under the law. This is to say that each individual man ought to be equal under the law. The three Persons of the Trinity are "co-equal, and co-eternal" in this sense. There are not levels to God.
Revelation 1:8
I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.
This is not to be understood as Christ being the start of God's creation, as that would contradict many passages but rather it is to be understood as Christ being the "beginner" and "author" of creation.
This simply means that without the resurrected Christ, a person is dead. In the resurrected Christ, he is alive - as the following passages show clearly:Act 3:15 and you killed the Author of life, whom God raised from the dead. To this we are witnesses. (ESV)
You may not have noticed, but "who is and who was and who is to come' are really the meanings of the Name Ye-ho-vah.We must also consider what was already given in Rev 1:
Rev 1:8 "I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty."
Not sure why you quoted this passage.Rev 1:10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and I heard behind me a loud voice like a trumpet
Rev 1:11 saying, "Write what you see in a book and send it to the seven churches, to Ephesus and to Smyrna and to Pergamum and to Thyatira and to Sardis and to Philadelphia and to Laodicea."
Rev 1:12 Then I turned to see the voice that was speaking to me, and on turning I saw seven golden lampstands,
Rev 1:13 and in the midst of the lampstands one like a son of man, clothed with a long robe and with a golden sash around his chest.
Rev 1:17 When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. But he laid his right hand on me, saying, "Fear not, I am the first and the last,
Rev 1:18 and the living one. I died, and behold I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of Death and Hell.
(ESV)
Rev 2:8 "And to the angel of the church in Smyrna write: '
Precisely.The words of the first and the last, who died and came to life. (ESV)
The beginning and end of what?Right from the beginning of Revelation, we see that God is referred to as "the Alpha and the Omega" and Jesus as "the first and the last" (Alpha being the first letter of the Greek alphabet and Omega being the last). It is also significant then that we find Jesus repeating these same words in the last chapter:
Rev 22:12 "Behold, I am coming soon, bringing my recompense with me, to repay each one for what he has done.
Rev 22:13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end." (ESV)
Several versions translate: 'by him' as 'in him:’What is significant here is that the very context you are highlighting in Col 1 contradicts the idea that Jesus was created.
Notice verse 16: "For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him."
I think your understanding is deficient in this respect.If "firstborn" in verse 15 meant that Jesus was created, it would contradict verse 16 which clearly shows that Jesus could not have been created. As it is, this verse is in perfect agreement with John 1:1-3 and 1 Cor 8:6. Jesus cannot have been created unless we accept these verses as false and being in error.
It would be most unreasonable if Jesus is now Lord over all creation. If He is, then what is God’s place in all this? He has been ousted – which is where trinitarianism leads. Not allowable.So, having that context, we must understand that "firstborn" has more than one meaning. The meaning appropriate here is that of preeminence and Jesus's sovereignty over all of creation.
That is precisely what you are forced to do. The context of the individual passages shows clearly exactly what is meant by the verses in question, and the concept that Christ is the Author of the New Creation cannot be faulted or denied. I would be interested to have your comments on the above remarks on the subject.Joh 8:58 Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am." (ESV)
Incorrect. You are taking these verses out of the context of the entirety of Scripture. You simply cannot divorce these texts from all that Scripture states.
First, it makes no grammatical sense at all.John 8.58 is another case in point.
But as I have shown, they ALL are in disagreement with the trinity. And you need to produce some careful exposition of each of the major passages above, and show that my understanding is incorrect.None are in disagreement with the Trinity.
The problem is Randy, that you are doing what every anti-trinitarian does, and that is post only those verses which show the humanity of Jesus. I can post many which show the deity of Jesus and that he has always existed in some way. So what you need to do is provide substantial reasons as to why the verses which speak of Jesus' humanity overrule the ones that speak of his deity.The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place.
These are the words of him who is the First and the Last, who died and came to life again
He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches
The Father is in the Son. The Son speaks the very words of God.
God has a God? God has to tell Himself? As in God had to give to Jesus to give to us? God has to obey Himself to remain in His own love? As Jesus remains in the Fathers love by obeying the Fathers commands. God is greater then Himself as in the Father is greater then Jesus? God has to receive authority to Himself? Why? Arn't you stating Jesus always was God? What does being God mean to you?
God has a God? Himself? As in :
I am coming soon. Hold on to what you have, so that no one will take your crown. 12 Him who overcomes I will make a pillar in the temple of my God. Never again will he leave it. I will write on him the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which is coming down out of heaven from my God; and I will also write on him my new name. 13 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches
If Jesus always was and always was God how then did He become the Son?
Randy
Because he's God and he can.If Jesus always was and always was God how then did He become the Son?
Because he's God and he can.