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The Trinity

The passages you now quote, all demonstrate quite clearly that Christ is the Author of the New Creation - not the whole shoot from Gen 1.1 and before.
No, they clearly show that Jesus is the Author of all creation. It is only through unsupported assumption that one can make the claim you made; through eisegesis, not exegesis. You are not letting the texts speak for themselves but are reading into them your own ideas.

Asyncritus said:
This simply means that without the resurrected Christ, a person is dead. In the resurrected Christ, he is alive - as the following passages show clearly:
No, it means what it clearly states: "Act 3:15 and you killed the Author of life, whom Godraised from the dead. To this we are witnesses." (ESV)

He is the Author of life, the "Prince" of life.

Asyncritus said:
You may not have noticed, but "who is and who was and who is to come' are really the meanings of the Name Ye-ho-vah.

Therefore, this is the divine imprimatur on the book of Revelation - God's signature as it were.
And you may have noticed that this was God speaking, referring to himself as "the Alpha and the Omega."

Asyncritus said:
Not sure why you quoted this passage.
To show who was talking, as the bold indicates. Why else?

Asyncritus said:
God has given His credentials. Jesus now gives His own: and what are they? That He is the first and last WHO ROSE FROM THE DEAD, and now lives forevermore. No more, no less than that, unless you are determined to do a good bit of context-yanking.[FONT=&quot]

Precisely.[/FONT]
And we see Jesus referring to himself as "the first and the last," which is a parallel of "the Alpha and the Omega." It is very significant that both God and Jesus refer to themselves using the same terms.
 
No, they clearly show that Jesus is the Author of all creation. It is only through unsupported assumption that one can make the claim you made; through eisegesis, not exegesis. You are not letting the texts speak for themselves but are reading into them your own ideas.

You are ignoring the immediate context of the words, and can offer no explanation of the connection between them.

Here's a classic example:

No, it means what it clearly states: "Act 3:15 and you killed the Author of life, whom Godraised from the dead. To this we are witnesses." (ESV)
Account for the fact that 'God raised Him from the dead' is placed directly after Jesus being the Author of life. What is the relevance of the juxtaposition?

Also, as I pointed out, the Authorship of life is clearly explained by Hebrews:

Hebrews 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

Here, life = eternal salvation, which is easily understood. Without Jesus, there is no eternal salvation. He is therefore the author of our salvation from death, by virtue of his having been raised from the dead..

Contrast that with your (apparent) idea that Jesus gives life to the microbes and the fish. I think you can see that that is pure silliness, and completely irrelevant to Acts 3.15.

And you may have noticed that this was God speaking, referring to himself as "the Alpha and the Omega."
I did, and commented quite extensively on the usage of the title. God is the Alpha and Omega of all creation, while Jesus is the alpha and omega of the New Creation. A statement confirmed by Paul in Col.1, where Jesus is extensively described as the beginning, the head, the firstborn, the pre-eminent.

He is also described there, I may note, as 'the image of the invisible God.' Since he is THE IMAGE of the invisible God, then it is perfectly clear that He cannot BE the invisible God. I hope you can agree with that quite stunning point.

Once you recognise the allusion to Adam (who was made in the image and likeness of the invisible God), you immediately see that Jesus is being described as the last Adam, the Head of the New Creation, as Adam was the Head of the Old Creation and was given dominion over it all.

Just so, Jesus is given dominion, pre-eminence, firstborn-ship and is the beginning (=the Alpha) of all the New Creation, not the Old.

Which is the whole point of this exercise.

To show who was talking, as the bold indicates. Why else?
I didn't know. which is why I asked.

And we see Jesus referring to himself as "the first and the last," which is a parallel of "the Alpha and the Omega." It is very significant that both God and Jesus refer to themselves using the same terms.
You're right - it IS very significant, but not in the way you want it to be.

As I've shown, Jesus is the first and the last from the grave. He says so:

5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,

17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first = the Alpha) and the last (=the Omega):
18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death. (Note the very close connection between the Alpha and Omega description and the death and resurrection of Christ. Why do you suppose that is so?).

He is the alpha and omega of the New Creation, by virtue of the fact that He was dead and now lives forevermore.

There's a great deal about the resurrection in Revelation 1-3. It is the pivotal point of Christianity, and assumes an enormous amount of importance in the Revelation, and explains itself, without convoluted theological contortions...
 
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With man all things are not possible but with God all things are possible.

Not all things WIP.

Hebrews 6:18 That by two immutable things, in which it was impossible for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us:

He cannot contradict Himself either, and when He says the He is the One and Only God, who has no equals, that cannot be contradicted either - though I fear that the doctrine of the trinity does just that.

Farouk

No one is denying the existence of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit - though I believe that the Holy Spirit is the power of God, personified sometimes, and not a person.
 
The problem is Randy, that you are doing what every anti-trinitarian does, and that is post only those verses which show the humanity of Jesus. I can post many which show the deity of Jesus and that he has always existed in some way. So what you need to do is provide substantial reasons as to why the verses which speak of Jesus' humanity overrule the ones that speak of his deity.

The doctrine of the Trinity attempts to make sense of all that is stated in Scripture--verses which speak of his deity do not overrule those that speak of his humanity and vice versa.

First of all I don't think we will every agree that Jesus always was.

However how do you see Jesus in Rev as a man? As its written, "Father return to me the glory I had with you before the world began" Jesus calls the Father His God. Yet you want to teach Jesus always was and always was God.
I understand how Jesus and the Father are one from what I read in the NT. From what Jesus spoke of and what Paul taught. I understand the Father is His God and greater then Jesus as I believe what Jesus taught. Jesus has always been the Son. "Firstborn of all creation" Its clear to me the Father willed His fullness to dwell in His firstborn.

Its a yes and no answer "Is Jesus God?"

Yes He is all that the Father is.
No He has always been the Son

Jesus never dies. He lives by the living Father. Just as we live by Jesus.


Randy
 
Not all things WIP.

Hebrews 6:18 That by two immutable things, in which it was impossible for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us:

He cannot contradict Himself either, and when He says the He is the One and Only God, who has no equals, that cannot be contradicted either - though I fear that the doctrine of the trinity does just that.

Farouk

No one is denying the existence of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit - though I believe that the Holy Spirit is the power of God, personified sometimes, and not a person.

That is what Jehovah's witness believe...that the Holy Spirit is a thing...an active force...a power. But that does not make sense:
Acts 1:8 HCSB

But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come on you, and you will be My witnesses in Jerusalem, in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth."

Now re-read that verse and substitute The Holy Spirit with the word power.

Also:
Hebrews 1:7-8 HCSB

And about the angels He says:
He makes His angels winds,
and His servants a fiery flame,
but to the Son:
Your throne, God,
is forever and ever,
and the scepter of Your kingdom
is a scepter of justice.

Here you can see the Father accurately calling the Son God. And you said yourself that God cannot lie.

This is what it comes down to...if God has a Son...that Son will be 100% God by his very nature. Just as my 2 year old girl is 100% human even though she is just a toddler.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I727 using Tapatalk 2
 
The beginning and end of what?

Ps 89.27 Also I will make him my firstborn, higher than the kings of the earth.

Therefore, at the time the Psalm was written, Jesus WAS NOT God's firstborn. Israel was at the time. (Exodus 4:22 And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the LORD, Israel is my son, even my firstborn:).

throne, saying,

11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, [that is God Himself] to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.

I would state God's Firstborn is a being not a people and such a being would state "before Abraham was born, I AM"

I also would read God appointed His firstborn to the line of David not made David or a nation His firstborn. Jesus is not a Son of David in the context of who existed first. Psalm 89:27

Jesus by God's appointment and to fulfill "forever" in regard to Gods promise to David's line is the root and offspring of David.

rev 22:16
"I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star.

A Son was promised and a Son was given. A Son who is fully equipped to given eternal life to all those the Father gives Him. One who has the ability and authority to raise us up on the last day. A faithful High priest in His Fathers house forever.

Randy
 
I would state God's Firstborn is a being not a people and such a being would state "before Abraham was born, I AM"

That sentence makes no grammatical sense. It should really be I WAS.

Therefore I am satisfied to think that there must be some meaning to it, even if it doesn't satisfy the grammatical rules.

I also would read God appointed His firstborn to the line of David not made David or a nation His firstborn.

That is quite correct. Jesus is APPOINTED as the Firstborn of all creation - meaning the NEW Creation.
Jesus by God's appointment and to fulfill "forever" in regard to Gods promise to David's line is the root and offspring of David.

He is the Root of David because He died, AND WAS BURIED, and emerged from under the ground, as the BRANCH.
A Son was promised and a Son was given. A Son who is fully equipped to given eternal life to all those the Father gives Him. One who has the ability and authority to raise us up on the last day. A faithful High priest in His Fathers house forever.

Again perfectly correct - but please remember what the trinitarians wilfully forget: He is the SON of God, not God the son. Such a description has no place in scripture: which I would suggest is a very heavy blow to the doctrine.

Please note as well, that NO HIGH PRIEST WAS EVER EQUAL TO THE GOD HE SERVED. That is a contradiction in terms, and cannot be allowed.
 
That sentence makes no grammatical sense. It should really be I WAS.

Therefore I am satisfied to think that there must be some meaning to it, even if it doesn't satisfy the grammatical rules.



That is quite correct. Jesus is APPOINTED as the Firstborn of all creation - meaning the NEW Creation.


He is the Root of David because He died, AND WAS BURIED, and emerged from under the ground, as the BRANCH.


Again perfectly correct - but please remember what the trinitarians wilfully forget: He is the SON of God, not God the son. Such a description has no place in scripture: which I would suggest is a very heavy blow to the doctrine.

Please note as well, that NO HIGH PRIEST WAS EVER EQUAL TO THE GOD HE SERVED. That is a contradiction in terms, and cannot be allowed.

Philippians 2:6 HCSB
who, existing in the form of God,
did not consider equality with God
as something to be used for His own advantage.

This high priest is equal to God.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I727 using Tapatalk 2
 
That sentence makes no grammatical sense. It should really be I WAS.

Therefore I am satisfied to think that there must be some meaning to it, even if it doesn't satisfy the grammatical rules.



That is quite correct. Jesus is APPOINTED as the Firstborn of all creation - meaning the NEW Creation.


He is the Root of David because He died, AND WAS BURIED, and emerged from under the ground, as the BRANCH.


Again perfectly correct - but please remember what the trinitarians wilfully forget: He is the SON of God, not God the son. Such a description has no place in scripture: which I would suggest is a very heavy blow to the doctrine.

Please note as well, that NO HIGH PRIEST WAS EVER EQUAL TO THE GOD HE SERVED. That is a contradiction in terms, and cannot be allowed.

When is the last time you read Hebrews 5 ? But I would state from what I read as Jesus taught "The Father is greater then the Son"

Randy
 
Asyncritus:
He cannot contradict Himself either, and when He says the He is the One and Only God, who has no equals, that cannot be contradicted either - though I fear that the doctrine of the trinity does just that.

I believe God can be Father, Son, and Holy Spirit simultaneously. I believe God can manifest himself in the form of a man with all the limitations and temptations that go along with it and still be God. I believe Jesus was with God and was God and is God.
 
John 1
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning.
3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

He was with God in the beginning ….The Word
Through him all things were made;….The Word
14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us….The Word….
 
That sentence makes no grammatical sense. It should really be I WAS.

Therefore I am satisfied to think that there must be some meaning to it, even if it doesn't satisfy the grammatical rules.

He's quoting Exodus. He's saying that He is the "I am" that spoke with Moses in the burning bush.
 
Asyncritus:


I believe God can be Father, Son, and Holy Spirit simultaneously. I believe God can manifest himself in the form of a man with all the limitations and temptations that go along with it and still be God. I believe Jesus was with God and was God and is God.

You hold to modalism?
 
I beleive God was in the beginning
the Word was with God
the Word was God
the Word Created all things
the Word created Adam
the Word was the Burning bush
the Word became flesh
 
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