Do you know that the Greek word en, translated as "was," means that "in the beginning," the Word was already in existence? That is, it speaks to absolute existence--the Word's eternal preexistence.
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The Trinity
- Thread starter joethemechanic
- Start date
I don't know. What precisely is modelism?
Robert Hern
Member
if the Word became flesh, Jesus
did the Word in the flesh, Jesus exist before He was born to Mary?
did the Word in the flesh, Jesus exist before He was born to Mary?
B
BornAgain
Guest
John 1:14
And the Word was made flesh
The Word s the second Person of the godhead, of the same nature as the Father, and the actual creator of every single thing. Nothing came before the word flesh in the Greek text and so the meaning cannot be, "The flesh became the Word". He was the ever-existing Word before he became at a definite period in history, flesh and this occurred when he was begotten by the Holy Spirit and born of the Virgin Mary. There is a logical and verbal connection between verse 1: ( In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God) and verse 14 of this chapter. The Word was (evermore existed) and became flesh (at a specific point in time) and dwelt among men.
No its not. It answers in context of who Jesus is. He is and always has been a Son. The One and only that the Father was pleased to share His fullness with.
A
Asyncritus
Guest
You really need to be careful with this icee.
Your quotation of Phiilippians 2 misses out the most important thing of all, which forever finishes off the idea of Jesus being equal to God.
All this was done, says Paul, TO THE GLORY OF GOD THE FATHER.
Jesus was God's SERVANT, and will be when He returns:
Isa 42.1 ¶ Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him:
That was at His first coming.
This will be at His second, when the kingdom of God is established:
he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles.
Since there is no break in the sentence, we have to assume that the same Servant in the first part of the verse will be exactly the same in the second part.
Jesus Christ is the same, yesterday, today and forever.
Incidentally, He took upon Himself the form of a servant doesn't mean that He was ever something else ie NOT a servant.
You may have missed the allusions to Genesis here:
Who being in the form of God (Genesis: Adam was made in the image and likeness of God)
thought equality with God (Genesis: Ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil)
Not a thing to be snatched (As Adam did)
But instead
Took upon him the form of a servant (He refused to break free from doing the will of God, unlike Adam)
And became obedient unto death
(as Isaiah says: 10 ¶ Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.
11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.)
even the death of the cross (= a tree 1 Pet 2.24)
Quite incidentally, he humbled himself (v8) is translated by the ERV as He emptied Himself.
How do you empty a vessel? Answer, you pour out the contents.
Just as Isaiah said:
53. 12 [...] because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.
And Php2 reiterates this: He became obedient unto death...
So to conclude:
This High Priest is God's Greatest Servant. He claims no equality with His Father and Master, instead, He says:
Hebrews 10:7 ¶ Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.
Which are the words of a servant who had his ear pierced. But that's another beautiful story.
A
Asyncritus
Guest
Can you prove this?
Robert Hern
Member
that's right, He took upon Himself the form of a servant
this is all good except for the most important part
before He became this servant, He was the Word
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning.
not only was He equal to God, He was God. no one can explain this existance.
Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
God:
H430
אלהים
'ĕlôhı̂ym
el-o-heem'
Plural of H433; gods in the ordinary sense; but specifically used (in the plural thus, especially with the article) of the supreme God; occasionally applied by way of deference to magistrates; and sometimes as a superlative: - angels, X exceeding, God (gods) (-dess, -ly), X (very) great, judges, X mighty.
Rev 3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.
Who did Jesus Christ Pray to? Himself? or was the Father in heaven just as He said?
Mat 5:16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.
Who died? The Father? Oh wait, He forsook Christ...
Mat 27:46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?
Mar 15:34 And at the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani? which is, being interpreted, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?
Have you ever forsaken yourself?
Who will Christ turn the kingdom over to at the end of the Millenium and the GWTJ and who will He become subject to?
1Co 15:25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
1Co 15:26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
1Co 15:27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
1Co 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
Does Christ become subject to Himself?
Then my answer to your question is yes and no. I believe each is an individual and yet all three are God. That is how I understand the trinity. God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. I am using the capital letters on purpose.
A
Asyncritus
Guest
I've asked this question before, with no answer. So I'll try again.
In the beginning OF WHAT?
Just as a matter of interest, have a look at these other places where 'in the beginning' is used, and let me know which of them applies to Gen 1.
Judges 7:19 So Gideon, and the hundred men that were with him, came unto the outside of the camp in the beginning of the middle watch; and they had but newly set the watch: and they blew the trumpets, and brake the pitchers that were in their hands.
Ruth 1:22 So Naomi returned, and Ruth the Moabitess, her daughter in law, with her, which returned out of the country of Moab: and they came to Bethlehem in the beginning of barley harvest.
2 Samuel 21:9 And he delivered them into the hands of the Gibeonites, and they hanged them in the hill before the LORD: and they fell all seven together, and were put to death in the days of harvest, in the first days, in the beginning of barley harvest.
Ezra 4:6 And in the reign of Ahasuerus, in the beginning of his reign, wrote they unto him an accusation against the inhabitants of Judah and Jerusalem.
Jeremiah 26:1 In the beginning of the reign of Jehoiakim the son of Josiah king of Judah came this word from the LORD, saying,
Jeremiah 27:1 In the beginning of the reign of Jehoiakim the son of Josiah king of Judah came this word unto Jeremiah from the LORD, saying,
Jeremiah 28:1 And it came to pass the same year, in the beginning of the reign of Zedekiah king of Judah,
Do those passages refer to Gen 1.1 as well? If not, why do you assume that Jn 1.1 does so refer?
Of course they can't. It's a MYSTERY! The old old excuse of the trinitarian when faced with the obvious, logical contradictions of the doctrine.
But tell me, doesn't it strike you as strange that the ONLY support for the doctrine is Jn1 and perhaps Col 1 and Php 2?
The most titanic doctrine of scripture hanging precariously on a handful of verses?
By contrast, the Oneness and utter supremacy of the Father to all else, literally screams from every book in Scripture.
The prophets shout it. Moses screams it. Jesus yells it. Paul echoes it.
And yet, you cling on to your doctrine for grim death. Why?
Because of Jn 1.1? Did you know that no less than 79 times, John's gospel says and implies that God is greater than Jesus? If John says it 79 times (and I can provide you with a list if you like), then how can you divorce 1.1 from the remaining 79 times?
Gotta be something wrong there, don't you think?
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B
BornAgain
Guest
I showed scripture in post 305
Robert Hern
Member
these are God's Words
youre asking we what He means by "In the beginning was the Word"
You'll have to ask God, I'm not qualified to answers this perticular question.
You said that no high priest is equal to God and I just showed you point blank in Scripture where it said otherwise about Jesus. Then you multiply words to try your best to get around what scripture PLAINLY states. Here is another:
John 5:18 HCSB
18 This is why the Jews began trying all the more to kill Him: Not only was He breaking the Sabbath, but He was even calling God His own Father, making Himself equal with God.
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A
Asyncritus
Guest
And the Word was made flesh
I've highlighted your assertions, which cannot reasonably be called proof.
I've raised this point before, and still can't hear from the trinitarian camp about it.
You say He was BEGOTTEN. That is correct.
However, He was also CONCEIVED (Lk 1).
Now if He was a spirit being or similar, with independent existence before His birth, then He cannot have been conceived. He was transplanted, implanted or similar, bot NOT conceived.
There is a huge contradiction here (another one!). How do you resolve it?
Can you resolve it?
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Asyncritus
Guest
Huh????
A
Asyncritus
Guest
Excuse me, but I asked a question which you have ignored, avoided or something else. Here it is again:
In the beginning OF WHAT?
It's no use pointing to Gen 1.1. It might just as well have been any one of these:
Judges 7:19 So Gideon, and the hundred men that were with him, came unto the outside of the camp in the beginning of the middle watch; and they had but newly set the watch: and they blew the trumpets, and brake the pitchers that were in their hands.
Ruth 1:22 So Naomi returned, and Ruth the Moabitess, her daughter in law, with her, which returned out of the country of Moab: and they came to Bethlehem in the beginning of barley harvest.
2 Samuel 21:9 And he delivered them into the hands of the Gibeonites, and they hanged them in the hill before the LORD: and they fell all seven together, and were put to death in the days of harvest, in the first days, in the beginning of barley harvest.
Ezra 4:6 And in the reign of Ahasuerus, in the beginning of his reign, wrote they unto him an accusation against the inhabitants of Judah and Jerusalem.
Jeremiah 26:1 In the beginning of the reign of Jehoiakim the son of Josiah king of Judah came this word from the LORD, saying,
Jeremiah 27:1 In the beginning of the reign of Jehoiakim the son of Josiah king of Judah came this word unto Jeremiah from the LORD, saying,
Jeremiah 28:1 And it came to pass the same year, in the beginning of the reign of Zedekiah king of Judah,
Do those passages refer to Gen 1.1 as well? If not, why do you assume that Jn 1.1 does so refer?
Thanks for your answer to the question.
Sorry, what's your point here? If you don't know any Hebrew, you can get yourself into a fine mess, so be careful.
Good. That proves that Jesus has God's permission to sit on the Father's throne. Therefore they are not 'one' or even 'equal'. If the queen of England gave you permission to sit on her throne, does that make you equal to her? I doubt it somehow.
And furthermore, the faithful will ALSO sit on that throne. Does that make them equal to God too? You know that's nonsense.
I don't understand the question. He prayed to His Father in heaven, who was greater than Himself. A very reasonable thng to do, but not from a trinitarian POV.
Good. The Father is greater than all, says Jesus, and we are to glorify Him by our good works - just as He (Jesus) did. I seek not my own glory, He said, but the glory of Him that sent me.
Definitely not - or I would be accused of schizophrenia. The Father did not forsake the Son.
But your point is strong in favour of my case.
I'm a little perplexed here. Are you saying thatJesus is NOT God, or what? These last few points are very powerful evidence that He is not, but started off as if He was.
Which is it?
A
Asyncritus
Guest
Then what qualifies you to have an opinion about the meaning of the words?
A
Asyncritus
Guest
In case you don't realise it, the Jews were trying to trump up the absolute worst charge they could against Jesus so they could stone Him.
You may recall that the subject wasn't even mentioned at Jesus' trial.
Why was that, do you think?
But to show how wrong you are, YOU ARE TAKING UP THE SAME POSITION AS THE JEWS DID. They were wrong, and you are just as wrong.
Jesus' answer, at every point, denies their accusation:
19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.
20 For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel.
21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will.
22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:
Do you still stand with the Jews? After all that?