The Trinity

[JLB]

Well said.

Therefore as you say below, there's no question of equality here, never mind what the creeds say.



Now you've lost it, if you're referring to Gen 1.

If you're referring to the New Creation in Christ, then you're perfectly correct.



Correctly stated. Well in tune with Revelation and Hebrews:

Hebrews 12:2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

Revelation 3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.



Well said, again.

The Lord RECEIVED the glory from His Father, exactly as He said:

John 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

John 17:22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:

John 17:24 Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.

Thou speakest the words of soberness and truth, Randy. I congratulate you.

10 "And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication; then they will look on Me whom they pierced. Yes, they will mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son, and grieve for Him as one grieves for a firstborn. Zechariah 12:10


Who spoke these words of Truth?


JLB

 

[wayseer]

never mind what the creeds say.

I earnestly suggest you familiarize yourself with the Nicene Creed.

Regardless of your NewAge philosophies and feel good belief systems the Patristic Fathers have ploughed this ground well before you were born.

God is NOT Jesus' father. If you follow that logic Jesus was therefore not begotten but made - and anything made (created) is not part of the Godhead.

If you accept that Jesus was not part of the Godhead he could not have been divine with the result that Christianity is a 2000 year old joke.

 

[Randy]

Well said.

Therefore as you say below, there's no question of equality here, never mind what the creeds say.



Now you've lost it, if you're referring to Gen 1.

If you're referring to the New Creation in Christ, then you're perfectly correct.



Correctly stated. Well in tune with Revelation and Hebrews:

Hebrews 12:2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

Revelation 3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.



Well said, again.

The Lord RECEIVED the glory from His Father, exactly as He said:

John 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

John 17:22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:

John 17:24 Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.

Thou speakest the words of soberness and truth, Randy. I congratulate you.

What God created by His command and at His Will was done with/through Jesus. (The Son) That is why I stated Jesus had a hand in what the Father did.

Jesus as a Son works within the framework of the Fathers will. While the Father is His God no one rises and sits (except) God alone apart from the Sons will. All authority has been given to Jesus and Jesus is the image of the invisible God and exact representation Of Gods being (equal in that context)

Jesus is Lord

Randy

 

[Randy]

I earnestly suggest you familiarize yourself with the Nicene Creed.

Regardless of your NewAge philosophies and feel good belief systems the Patristic Fathers have ploughed this ground well before you were born.

God is NOT Jesus' father. If you follow that logic Jesus was therefore not begotten but made - and anything made (created) is not part of the Godhead.

If you accept that Jesus was not part of the Godhead he could not have been divine with the result that Christianity is a 2000 year old joke.

Its quite clear Jesus is all that the Father is as the fullness of the deity (All the treasures of wisdom and knowledge etc) was pleased to dwell in Him and in that He is the One and Only as in One Lord. The dispute is whether Jesus had such glory as a being who always was and always was God or whether He is the Firstborn of God (A Son) and such glory was given to Him by the Father (The One even Jesus calls His God)

I state scripture shows Jesus "received" such glory and that strengthens not weakens the case that Jesus has always been the Son.

Either way what Jesus did for God and even for us (came down and purchased us by His blood) was a beautiful thing. Jesus has received authority to have life in Himself and to give eternal life to all that God gives Him (Those that listen and learn from the Father) So when you state Jesus can't save us unless He always was then I disagree. The NT doesn't require a Christian to state the Glory Jesus has was because He always was. We both agree Jesus is Lord and the image of the Living God.

Randy

 

[Asyncritus]

What God created by His command and at His Will was done with/through Jesus. (The Son) That is why I stated Jesus had a hand in what the Father did.

As I feared, you lost it here. This assumes that Jesus was there at Gen 1. As a thought in the father's mind, that is perfectly true. So were we, as Eph 1 says.

Jesus as a Son works within the framework of the Fathers will. While the Father is His God no one rises and sits (except) God alone apart from the Sons will. All authority has been given to Jesus and Jesus is the image of the invisible God and exact representation Of Gods being (equal in that context)

Very scriptural indeed.

Jesus is Lord

You missed out an extremely important bit.

'To the glory of God the Father.'

 

[Asyncritus]

I earnestly suggest you familiarize yourself with the Nicene Creed.

Where do I find that in Scripture?

Regardless of your NewAge philosophies and feel good belief systems the Patristic Fathers have ploughed this ground well before you were born.

And sowed the seeds of dissension, confusion and much woe.

God is NOT Jesus' father. If you follow that logic Jesus was therefore not begotten but made - and anything made (created) is not part of the Godhead.

Please, Wayseer. Why are you fighting so much scripture? I could quote a dozen such scriptures off the top of my head, but I'm sure you know them nearly as well as I do.

So why are you fighting them?

If you accept that Jesus was not part of the Godhead he could not have been divine with the result that Christianity is a 2000 year old joke.

That's what your teaching does.

The gospel is designed to be able to convince all men. Do you really think you can convince a total unbeliever who knws nothing of creeds etc that the trinity is a logical, reasonable doctrine and understanding of God's nature?

Really, really, I mean?

 

[JLB]

Where do I find that in Scripture?



And sowed the seeds of dissension, confusion and much woe.



Please, Wayseer. Why are you fighting so much scripture? I could quote a dozen such scriptures off the top of my head, but I'm sure you know them nearly as well as I do.

So why are you fighting them?



That's what your teaching does.

The gospel is designed to be able to convince all men. Do you really think you can convince a total unbeliever who knws nothing of creeds etc that the trinity is a logical, reasonable doctrine and understanding of God's nature?

Really, really, I mean?

10 "And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication; then they will look on Me whom they pierced. Yes, they will mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son, and grieve for Him as one grieves for a firstborn. Zechariah 12:10

Jesus is YHWH! The Lord God Almighty!

"I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End," says the Lord, "who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty." Revelation 1:7

He is The Lord Almighty! Who was, is and is to come!

The four living creatures, each having six wings, were full of eyes around and within. And they do not rest day or night, saying: "Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, Who was and is and is to come!"


He is the Lord of lords and the God of gods.


17 For the Lord your God is God of gods and Lord of lords, the great God, mighty and awesome, who shows no partiality nor takes a bribe. Deuteronomy 10:17

These will make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb will overcome them, for He is Lord of lords and King of kings; and those who are with Him are called, chosen, and faithful." Revelation 17:14

He appeared to Moses as The Angel of The Lord, The Lord and God!

1 Now Moses was tending the flock of Jethro his father-in-law, the priest of Midian. And he led the flock to the back of the desert, and came to Horeb, the mountain of God. 2 And the Angel of the Lord appeared to him in a flame of fire from the midst of a bush. So he looked, and behold, the bush was burning with fire, but the bush was not consumed. 3 Then Moses said, "I will now turn aside and see this great sight, why the bush does not burn." 4 So when the Lord saw that he turned aside to look, God called to him from the midst of the bush and said, "Moses, Moses!" And he said, "Here I am." Exodus 3:1-4

and Hagar -

9 The Angel of the Lord said to her, "Return to your mistress, and submit yourself under her hand." 10 Then the Angel of the Lord said to her, "I will multiply your descendants exceedingly, so that they shall not be counted for multitude." 11 And the Angel of the Lord said to her: "Behold, you are with child, And you shall bear a son. You shall call his name Ishmael, Because the Lord has heard your affliction. 12 He shall be a wild man; His hand shall be against every man, And every man's hand against him. And he shall dwell in the presence of all his brethren." 13 Then she called the name of the Lord who spoke to her, You-Are-the-God-Who-Sees; for she said, "Have I also here seen Him who sees me?"

And Samson's Parents -

17 Then Manoah said to the Angel of the Lord, "What is Your name, that when Your words come to pass we may honor You?" 18 And the Angel of the Lord said to him, "Why do you ask My name, seeing it is wonderful?" 19 So Manoah took the young goat with the grain offering, and offered it upon the rock to the Lord. And He did a wondrous thing while Manoah and his wife looked on-- 20 it happened as the flame went up toward heaven from the altar--the Angel of the Lord ascended in the flame of the altar! When Manoah and his wife saw this, they fell on their faces to the ground. 21 When the Angel of the Lord appeared no more to Manoah and his wife, then Manoah knew that He was the Angel of the Lord. 22 And Manoah said to his wife, "We shall surely die, because we have seen God!"


He is YHWH that appeared to Abraham!

When Abram was ninety-nine years old, the Lord appeared to Abram and said to him, "I am Almighty God; walk before Me and be blameless. 2 And I will make My covenant between Me and you, and will multiply you exceedingly." Genesis 17:1-2


He is the creator of the Heavens and the earth in Genesis 1:1

16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. Colossians 1:16

1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. Genesis 1:1


He is a member of the Godhead, the Elohim with The Father and The Holy Spirit!


JLB

 

[Asyncritus]

10 "And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication; then they will look on Me whom they pierced. Yes, they will mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son, and grieve for Him as one grieves for a firstborn. Zechariah 12:10

Jesus is YHWH! The Lord God Almighty!

"I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End," says the Lord, "who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty." Revelation 1:7

He is The Lord Almighty! Who was, is and is to come!

The four living creatures, each having six wings, were full of eyes around and within. And they do not rest day or night, saying: "Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, Who was and is and is to come!"


He is the Lord of lords and the God of gods.


17 For the Lord your God is God of gods and Lord of lords, the great God, mighty and awesome, who shows no partiality nor takes a bribe. Deuteronomy 10:17

These will make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb will overcome them, for He is Lord of lords and King of kings; and those who are with Him are called, chosen, and faithful." Revelation 17:14

He appeared to Moses as The Angel of The Lord, The Lord and God!

1 Now Moses was tending the flock of Jethro his father-in-law, the priest of Midian. And he led the flock to the back of the desert, and came to Horeb, the mountain of God. 2 And the Angel of the Lord appeared to him in a flame of fire from the midst of a bush. So he looked, and behold, the bush was burning with fire, but the bush was not consumed. 3 Then Moses said, "I will now turn aside and see this great sight, why the bush does not burn." 4 So when the Lord saw that he turned aside to look, God called to him from the midst of the bush and said, "Moses, Moses!" And he said, "Here I am." Exodus 3:1-4

and Hagar -

9 The Angel of the Lord said to her, "Return to your mistress, and submit yourself under her hand." 10 Then the Angel of the Lord said to her, "I will multiply your descendants exceedingly, so that they shall not be counted for multitude." 11 And the Angel of the Lord said to her: "Behold, you are with child, And you shall bear a son. You shall call his name Ishmael, Because the Lord has heard your affliction. 12 He shall be a wild man; His hand shall be against every man, And every man's hand against him. And he shall dwell in the presence of all his brethren." 13 Then she called the name of the Lord who spoke to her, You-Are-the-God-Who-Sees; for she said, "Have I also here seen Him who sees me?"

And Samson's Parents -

17 Then Manoah said to the Angel of the Lord, "What is Your name, that when Your words come to pass we may honor You?" 18 And the Angel of the Lord said to him, "Why do you ask My name, seeing it is wonderful?" 19 So Manoah took the young goat with the grain offering, and offered it upon the rock to the Lord. And He did a wondrous thing while Manoah and his wife looked on-- 20 it happened as the flame went up toward heaven from the altar--the Angel of the Lord ascended in the flame of the altar! When Manoah and his wife saw this, they fell on their faces to the ground. 21 When the Angel of the Lord appeared no more to Manoah and his wife, then Manoah knew that He was the Angel of the Lord. 22 And Manoah said to his wife, "We shall surely die, because we have seen God!"


He is YHWH that appeared to Abraham!

When Abram was ninety-nine years old, the Lord appeared to Abram and said to him, "I am Almighty God; walk before Me and be blameless. 2 And I will make My covenant between Me and you, and will multiply you exceedingly." Genesis 17:1-2


He is the creator of the Heavens and the earth in Genesis 1:1

16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. Colossians 1:16

1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. Genesis 1:1


He is a member of the Godhead, the Elohim with The Father and The Holy Spirit!


JLB

Man, are you confused !

So God is the Father, Jesus, angels, and you missed out men (Psalms 82:6 I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.)

So just how many members of the trinity are there really, in your considered opinion?

That reminds me, Jesus quoted that verse above. Did you hear what He said? No? I didn't think so.

John 10.34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? [There's the quote]

35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;

36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God? [which, by the way, is a far LOWER claim than to be 'gods'].

Note, the Father does 3 things:

1. The Father SANCTIFIES Jesus

2. SENT Jesus into the world

3. Is the FATHER of the Son of God, viz. Jesus

Have you ever noticed that Jesus NEVER sanctifies the Father, NEVER sends Him anywhere, and is NEVER the Father of the Father?

Why is that, do you think?

Just BTW you quoted:

17 For the Lord your God is God of gods and Lord of lords, the great God, mighty and awesome, who shows no partiality nor takes a bribe. Deuteronomy 10:17

These will make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb will overcome them, for He is Lord of lords and King of kings; and those who are with Him are called, chosen, and faithful." Revelation 17:14

Why do you think Jesus is NOT described as GOD OF GODS, as YHWH is clearly described in Deut 10.17?

 

[JLB]

Man, are you confused !

So God is the Father, Jesus, angels, and you missed out men (Psalms 82:6 I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.)

So just how many members of the trinity are there really, in your considered opinion?

That reminds me, Jesus quoted that verse above. Did you hear what He said? No? I didn't think so.

John 10.34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? [There's the quote]

35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;

36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God? [which, by the way, is a far LOWER claim than to be 'gods'].

Note, the Father does 3 things:

1. The Father SANCTIFIES Jesus

2. SENT Jesus into the world

3. Is the FATHER of the Son of God, viz. Jesus

Have you ever noticed that Jesus NEVER sanctifies the Father, NEVER sends Him anywhere, and is NEVER the Father of the Father?

Why is that, do you think?

Just BTW you quoted:




Why do you think Jesus is NOT described as GOD OF GODS, as YHWH is clearly described in Deut 10.17?

YHWh Is Lord! Jesus is Lord!

Jesus is YHWH ! Basic Christianity 101!

Do you deny Jesus as Lord YHWH?

Are you a Jehovah's witness?

Before we go any further, please answer these simple questions with yes or no.

JLB

 

[Asyncritus]

YHWh Is Lord! Jesus is Lord!

Jesus is YHWH ! Basic Christianity 101!

Do you deny Jesus as Lord YHWH?

Yes. YHWH is the Name of the Father, not His Son.

Are you a Jehovah's witness?

No.


OK. Now can you answer the simple questions I asked in my previous post? Just to remind you:

Q1. So just how many members of the trinity are there really, in your considered opinion?

Q2.

Note, the Father does 3 things:

1. The Father SANCTIFIES Jesus

2. SENT Jesus into the world

3. Is the FATHER of the Son of God, viz. Jesus

Have you ever noticed that Jesus NEVER sanctifies the Father, NEVER sends Him anywhere, and is NEVER the Father of the Father?

Why is that, do you think?

Q3.

Just BTW you quoted:

17 For the Lord your God is God of gods and Lord of lords, the great God, mighty and awesome, who shows no partiality nor takes a bribe. Deuteronomy 10:17

These will make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb will overcome them, for He is Lord of lords and King of kings; and those who are with Him are called, chosen, and faithful." Revelation 17:14

Why do you think Jesus is NOT described as GOD OF GODS, as YHWH is clearly described in Deut 10.17?

Interesting Fact:

Incidentally, King of kings is a title, not restricted to Jesus or YHWH.

Ezra 7:12 Artaxerxes, king of kings, unto Ezra the priest, a scribe of the law of the God of heaven, perfect peace, and at such a time.

Ezekiel 26:7 For thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will bring upon Tyrus Nebuchadrezzar king of Babylon, a king of kings, from the north, with horses, and with chariots, and with horsemen, and companies, and much people.

Daniel 2:37 Thou, O king, art a king of kings: for the God of heaven hath given thee a kingdom, power, and strength, and glory.

Q4.

Are these men members of the trinity/godhead too?

 

[Free]

Why do you think Jesus is NOT described as GOD OF GODS, as YHWH is clearly described in Deut 10.17?

Begging the question.

Interesting Fact:

Incidentally, King of kings is a title, not restricted to Jesus or YHWH.

Ezra 7:12 Artaxerxes, king of kings, unto Ezra the priest, a scribe of the law of the God of heaven, perfect peace, and at such a time.

Ezekiel 26:7 For thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will bring upon Tyrus Nebuchadrezzar king of Babylon, a king of kings, from the north, with horses, and with chariots, and with horsemen, and companies, and much people.

Daniel 2:37 Thou, O king, art a king of kings: for the God of heaven hath given thee a kingdom, power, and strength, and glory.

What is interesting is that you only addressed "King of kings" and not "Lord of lords," which also appears in the very text you gave in Deut. 10:17, immediately after it says YHWH is "God of gods."

 

[rrowell]

Yes. YHWH is the Name of the Father, not His Son.

Can I please ask you so I know what I may or may not respond to, what is it exactly that you believe the Godhead consist of? who is in it?

Thanks.

 

[Asyncritus]

Begging the question.

Which question?

What is interesting is that you only addressed "King of kings" and not "Lord of lords," which also appears in the very text you gave in Deut. 10:17, immediately after it says YHWH is "God of gods."

Well, is Jesus GOD of GODS?

Lord of lords is equivalent to King of kings, which clearly means human kings, and human lords.

And of course, Paul refers to this, in your favourite passage:

1 Cor.8.5 For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,)

6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

He very clearly and carefully distinguishes between the respective statuses of God the Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Jesus is NOT called GOD of GODS, because He is not God. If He was God, then He would automatically also be God of Gods.but as we have seen, He isn't so called, and it is not by chance.

It is totally deliberate, and carefully done, and you do well to take notice of the fact.

Jesus IS called LORD, because 'lord ' is a generic term for anyone in high or higher authority/ position. You may think, for example, of the house of Lords in the British Parliament. No one would dream of calling Lord XYZ 'god'.

They are in positions of higher status than, say, me, or you, or members of the lower house.

But they most certainly are NOT gods.

When He returns, He will be King of Kings (meaning they will all be forced to submit to His rule). He will be Lord of Lords - because all these 'lords' will have to obey Him - or He will destroy them:

Rev 17.14 ¶ These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.

Similarly:

Revelation 19:16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

The passage goes on to explain in grim detail exactly what that means:

18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.

That's what Ps 2 means, when it says:

11 Serve the LORD with fear, and rejoice with trembling.
12 Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that put their trust in him.

So there is the reason why He is NOT called God of Gods.

But I want to hear what JLB says on the matter.

 

[Asyncritus]

Can I please ask you so I know what I may or may not respond to, what is it exactly that you believe the Godhead consist of? who is in it?

I believe in God the Father Almighty, maker of heaven and earth and

in Jesus Christ, His only begotten Son our Lord

who was conceived by the Holy Spirit, born of the virgin Mary...

That's where I'm coming from, rrowell.

You may recognise that form of words. It's from the Apostles creed, and I can't better it.

 

[Butch5]

I earnestly suggest you familiarize yourself with the Nicene Creed.

Regardless of your NewAge philosophies and feel good belief systems the Patristic Fathers have ploughed this ground well before you were born.

God is NOT Jesus' father. If you follow that logic Jesus was therefore not begotten but made - and anything made (created) is not part of the Godhead.

If you accept that Jesus was not part of the Godhead he could not have been divine with the result that Christianity is a 2000 year old joke.

God is not Jesus' Father? Can you elaborate please?

 

[wayseer]

God is not Jesus' Father? Can you elaborate please?

I just did - read my post.

I probably need to do be better.

If Jesus was someone who 'proceeds from the Father', this indicates that Jesus, the Word, was not there in the beginning. If Jesus was not there at the beginning he must have been created by that which was there at the beginning - God. Consequently, Jesus could not have been part of the Godhead and if he was not part of the Godhead he is something less than God. And if Jesus is not God ... then you and I are in trouble ... our salvation means nothing.

 

[wayseer]

Its quite clear Jesus is all that the Father is as the fullness of the deity (All the treasures of wisdom and knowledge etc) was pleased to dwell in Him and in that He is the One and Only as in One Lord. The dispute is whether Jesus had such glory as a being who always was and always was God or whether He is the Firstborn of God (A Son) and such glory was given to Him by the Father (The One even Jesus calls His God)

See John 1. In the beginning ...

I state scripture shows Jesus "received" such glory and that strengthens not weakens the case that Jesus has always been the Son.

'Received'? Do you mean that Jesus was somehow incomplete and needed to 'receive' something extra to 'complete' him?

Either way what Jesus did for God and even for us (came down and purchased us by His blood) was a beautiful thing. Jesus has received authority to have life in Himself and to give eternal life to all that God gives Him (Those that listen and learn from the Father) So when you state Jesus can't save us unless He always was then I disagree. The NT doesn't require a Christian to state the Glory Jesus has was because He always was. We both agree Jesus is Lord and the image of the Living God.

Randy

The Trinity is complex and serves to negate various ideas that Jesus was not really God.

 

[wayseer]

Where do I find that in Scripture?

It is contain in scripture - all of it. As I indicated, you might benefit from an in depth study of the Patristic Fathers, the rise of any number of heresies, and the work of the various Councils.

I have done some study into these matters and I am far from any expert but appreciate the various doctrinal positions that arise. A couple of publications might help - The Early Church by Henry Chadwick and another, by the same name buy totally different book, The Early Church by W.H.C. Frend.

And sowed the seeds of dissension, confusion and much woe.

Whether you like it or not you are a product of the work of the Patristic Fathers.

Please, Wayseer. Why are you fighting so much scripture? I could quote a dozen such scriptures off the top of my head, but I'm sure you know them nearly as well as I do.

I am not 'fighting' scripture - I am fighting simplistic cliches masked as theology.

If you have any scripture that opposes John 1 then you might have a case.

The gospel is designed to be able to convince all men. Do you really think you can convince a total unbeliever who knws nothing of creeds etc that the trinity is a logical, reasonable doctrine and understanding of God's nature?

No, and neither can you. The only thing that can 'convince' an unbeliever is the Holy Spirit - not eloquence of argument.

And this is an apologetics forum - a place to hone your defense of your beliefs.

Apart from doctrine a simply process of logic should make you aware of the issues involved - issues which I have addressed. And if you think the Nicene Creed is old hat it is far ahead personal opinion.

But in another post you seem to acknowledge the Apostles Creed. So why the questions?

 

[JLB]

Why do you think Jesus is NOT described as GOD OF GODS, as YHWH is clearly described in Deut 10.17?

Interesting Fact:

Incidentally, King of kings is a title, not restricted to Jesus or YHWH.

Ezra 7:12 Artaxerxes, king of kings, unto Ezra the priest, a scribe of the law of the God of heaven, perfect peace, and at such a time.

Ezekiel 26:7 For thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will bring upon Tyrus Nebuchadrezzar king of Babylon, a king of kings, from the north, with horses, and with chariots, and with horsemen, and companies, and much people.

Daniel 2:37 Thou, O king, art a king of kings: for the God of heaven hath given thee a kingdom, power, and strength, and glory.

Q4.

Are these men members of the trinity/godhead too?

Why do you think Jesus is NOT described as GOD OF GODS, as YHWH is clearly described in Deut 10.17?

I didn't say Jesus is GOD OF GODS, that is what you said that I said.

I am saying Jesus is God of gods. Big difference!


There are no other gods before Him.

18 For thus says the Lord, Who created the heavens, Who is God, Who formed the earth and made it, Who has established it, Who did not create it in vain, Who formed it to be inhabited: "I am the Lord, and there is no other. Isaiah 45:18 This is Jesus!

YHWH is the Name of the Father, not His Son.

You are absolutely dead wrong!

The revelation of the New Testament is that Jesus is Lord. YHWH!

God in the flesh! This is elementary level basic Christianity!

Again, I will show you from the clearest indisputable scripture there is.

YHWH foretelling of being pierced on the cross!!!!!!!

10 "And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication; then they will look on Me whom they pierced. Yes, they will mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son, and grieve for Him as one grieves for a firstborn.

YHWH is speaking through the mouth of Zechariah, foretelling of being pierced on the cross!

Can you read!

Do you understand that God became flesh?

16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifested in the flesh, Justified in the Spirit, Seen by angels, Preached among the Gentiles, Believed on in the world, Received up in glory. 1 Timothy 3:16


All the scriptures I gave you that show Jesus is the Almighty God from the new testament and the old, and yet you still argue.

Well argue with Zechariah!!!!

So just how many members of the trinity are there really, in your considered opinion?

Three!

The Father, The Word and The Holy Spirit!


Without confessing Jesus Christ as Lord, there is no salvation!

There is only One Lord, YHWH!

Jesus said -

58 Jesus said to them, "Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM."

Jesus Himself claimed He is YHWH!

The Pharisee's knew exactly that He was calling Himself YHWH, because they wanted to kill Him immediately!

59 Then they took up stones to throw at Him; but Jesus hid Himself and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.

They took up stones to stone Him to death for claiming that He was YHWH!

You deny Him as Lord YHWH as well!

JLB

 

[Randy]

See John 1. In the beginning ...



'Received'? Do you mean that Jesus was somehow incomplete and needed to 'receive' something extra to 'complete' him?



The Trinity is complex and serves to negate various ideas that Jesus was not really God.

Jesus was not the fullness. The fullness was pleased to dwell IN Him.

John doesn't state Jesus always was. John puts Jesus at the beginning. (genesis)


He also says, “In the beginning, Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth, and the heavens are the work of your hands.

“Haven’t you read,†he replied, “that at the beginning the Creator ‘made them male and female,’

Jesus was before the world began. So He certainly was at the beginning. And He was God. (All that the Father is).

Paul takes it further to show Jesus is First in all things. Firstborn of all creation. Before all things visible and invisible. Jesus had a hand in what the Father did. Setting up thrones and authorities etc

I believe all that including "Firstborn of all creation.



Randy



Randy