I didn't say Jesus is GOD OF GODS, that is what you said that I said.
I am saying Jesus is God of gods. Big difference!
I simply don't have a clue about your 'big difference'.
I said, and I stand by it, that Jesus is NEVER called God of Gods, anywhere in scripture, capital letters or not.
There is a very simple reason for that - and it is that He is not God. He is the Son of God. And that fact alone finishes all this argument.
There are no other gods before Him.
18 For thus says the Lord, Who created the heavens, Who is God, Who formed the earth and made it, Who has established it, Who did not create it in vain, Who formed it to be inhabited: "I am the Lord, and there is no other. Isaiah 45:18 This is Jesus!
No, you're wrong . This is the Father, YHWH talking, not Jesus.
The Jews made serious errors, but never this one. Can't you see the singular, personal pronouns? Why are they singular? Because they refer to the one God.
Same chapter:
11 ¶ Thus saith the LORD, the Holy
One of Israel, and his
Maker, Ask
me of things to come concerning
my sons, and concerning the work of
my hands command ye
me.
12
I have made the earth, and created man upon it:
I, even
my hands, have stretched out the heavens, and all their host have
I commanded.
What else could He say to remove this stumbling block from before your eyes? How else could He have said it? I simply don't know.
You are absolutely dead wrong!
The revelation of the New Testament is that Jesus is Lord. YHWH!
So also are a few other people:
Matthew 18:25 But forasmuch as he had not to pay, his lord commanded him to be sold, and his wife, and children, and all that he had, and payment to be made.
Matthew 18:26 The servant therefore fell down, and worshipped him, saying, Lord, have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.
Matthew 18:27 Then the lord of that servant was moved with compassion, and loosed him, and forgave him the debt.
Note, that He does not say ME in th following passage:
Luke 20:37 Now that the dead are raised, even Moses shewed at the bush, when he calleth the Lord the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.
Note that He disagrees with you and says MY GOD:
Peter and David disagree with you:
Acts 4:26 The kings of the earth stood up, and the rulers were gathered together against the Lord, and against his Christ.
[Clearly, they are not the same - person or anything else]
Martha disagrees with you:
John 11:27 She saith unto him, Yea, Lord: I believe that thou art the Christ, the Son of God, which should come into the world.
Augustus is called lord:
Acts 25.25 But when I found that he had committed nothing worthy of death, and that he himself hath appealed to Augustus, I have determined to send him.
26 Of whom I have no certain thing to write unto my lord. Wherefore I have brought him forth before you, and specially before thee, O king Agrippa, that, after examination had, I might have somewhat to write.
And Paul:
Romans 1:7 To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father,
and the Lord Jesus Christ.
Romans 15:6 That ye may with one mind and one mouth glorify God,
even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.
1 Corinthians 1:9 God is faithful, by whom ye were called unto the fellowship of
his Son Jesus Christ our Lord.
1 Corinthians 6:14 And
God hath both raised up the Lord, and will also raise up us by his own power.
1 Corinthians 8:6 But to us there is but
one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.
2 Corinthians 1:2 Grace be to you and peace from God our Father,
and from the Lord Jesus Christ.
Ephesians 1:17 That
the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory,
Ephesians 5:20 Giving thanks always for all things unto God and the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ;
9 Wherefore
God also hath highly exalted him, and
given him a name which is above every name:
Philippians 2:11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.
The scriptures could go on, but I doubt if it will make the slightest difference to you.
Just BTW, do you have any comment on the real meaning of any of the above passages?
God in the flesh! This is elementary level basic Christianity!
God was in Christ. He (Jesus) said so. But then He overturned your applecart completely, thus:
Jn 17.21 That they all may be one;
as thou, Father,
art in me, and
I in thee, that
they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
If God was in Jesus, and Jesus was in God, then any literal understanding of that is up every gum tree going. It was plainly a figurative statement.
But when we add the fact that the disciples were to be one in God and in Jesus, and that God was to be in them, then your argument which is entirely literally based, falls flat on its face.
I'm sure you can see that, unless of course, you want to make us part of the trinity as well. Do you?
Again, I will show you from the clearest indisputable scripture there is.
YHWH foretelling of being pierced on the cross!!!!!!!
10 "And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication; then they will look on Me whom they pierced. Yes, they will mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son, and grieve for Him as one grieves for a firstborn.
YHWH is speaking through the mouth of Zechariah, foretelling of being pierced on the cross!
Oh dear. Wrong again. There is clearly a textual problem there, because John, inspired as he is, clearly says the Hebrew really means:
37 And again another scripture saith, They shall look on
him whom they pierced.
The RSV says:
Zechariah 12:10 "And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of compassion and supplication, so that,
when they look on him whom they have pierced, they shall mourn for him, as one mourns for an only child, and weep bitterly over him, as one weeps over a first-born.
What have you to say to that?
Yes, with understanding too. What about yourself?
Do you understand that God became flesh?
16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifested in the flesh, Justified in the Spirit, Seen by angels, Preached among the Gentiles, Believed on in the world, Received up in glory. 1 Timothy 3:16
You don't understand, do you. But have a look a few paras above, and you will gain a clear understanding of what it means that God was manifest in the flesh.
That word
'manifested' again upsets your applecart, because if the trinity was what you think it is, it would simply say: God was in the flesh.
And before you go rushing off to Jn 1, remember that it doesn't say the Jesus became flesh. It says that the Word became flesh.
Just as a matter of interest, do you know that the Word is also a title of the scriptures?
Did you know that 'the beginning' refers mainly to the beginning of Christ's ministry? How do I know?
John says so.
Knowing full well that people like you might come along and make a mess of his intentions, he elucidates the matter clearly for us.
Whether you believe him or not is up to you, but it seems perfectly clear to me that 1 Jn 1.1 is written with direct reference to Jn 1.1, and if so, then a shift in your paradigm is called for.
1 Jn 1.1 ¶ That which was
from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life;
Which beginning was that? Let Mark 1 tell you:
1 ¶
The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God;
So Jn 1 may not be Gen 1 after all. Do you see the point? It may well be the beginning of the gospel of the Lord Jesus. But I have little hope that you will be able to grasp that elementary point.
All the scriptures I gave you that show Jesus is the Almighty God from the new testament and the old, and yet you still argue.
Well argue with Zechariah!!!!
You know, all these sayings about Jesus being Almighty God make me wince.
That great title which belongs to the Father alone, is being applied to His Son. It must grieve both of them to hear you say so - because Jesus came here, and lives now, for only one purpose: to glorify God in everything he does and says.
Do you know, Jesus NEVER claims to be the Almighty? Just as He NEVER claims to be God of Gods?
Why doesn't He do so? It's a most important doctrine, if it is true, and we would expect to hear about it somewhere in the gospels, out of His own mouth. But we don't.
Why did it take 400-odd years for the trinitarians to make such a mighty deduction or worse, mistake?
Because it is untrue. How do I know?
Isaiah and many others say so. Go argue with them:
Isaiah 37:16 O LORD of hosts, God of Israel, that dwellest between the cherubims, thou art
the God, even
thou alone, of all the kingdoms of the earth:
thou hast made heaven and earth.
Isaiah 44:24 Thus saith the LORD, thy
redeemer, and
he that formed thee from the womb,
I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens
alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth
by myself;
Three!
The Father, The Word and The Holy Spirit!
Without confessing Jesus Christ as Lord, there is no salvation!
Well Hallelujah! We agree on something - I think...
There is only One Lord, YHWH!
Please. This is untrue. Here's an example, as I can't be bothered to go digging them all up again:
Dan 4.19 Belteshazzar answered and said, My
lord, the dream be to them that hate thee, and the interpretation thereof to thine enemies.
Genesis 23:6 Hear us,
my lord: thou art a mighty prince among us: in the choice of our sepulchres bury thy dead; none of us shall withhold from thee his sepulchre, but that thou mayest bury thy dead.
Genesis 23:11 Nay,
my lord, hear me: the field give I thee, and the cave that is therein, I give it thee; in the presence of the sons of my people give I it thee: bury thy dead.
Genesis 23:15
My lord, hearken unto me: the land is worth four hundred shekels of silver; what is that betwixt me and thee? bury therefore thy dead.
Jesus said -
58 Jesus said to them, "Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM."
We've been over this ground before, so I won't do so again. Just look it up on the thread.
Jesus Himself claimed He is YHWH!
The Pharisee's knew exactly that He was calling Himself YHWH, because they wanted to kill Him immediately!
59 Then they took up stones to throw at Him; but Jesus hid Himself and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.
The Pharisees etc were looking for a good excuse to kill Him - and thought they had found it. Just as they erred with their fictitious account of His comment about the temple building, they do so now.
Isn't it striking that at His trial for blasphemy, this so-called claim to be YHWH is never mentioned? Why is that, do you think?
They all must have known about it, if that was true - but they don't mention it at all.
Why don't they? Because Jesus shot them down in flames just a bit later:
John 10:36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?
He is accused before the High Priest, and what do they say?
63 But Jesus held his peace. And the high priest answered and said unto him, I adjure thee by the living God, that thou tell us whether thou be the Christ,
the Son of God.
[Note, not: Are you YHWH?] Why not? because he knew full well that Jesus had never said anything of the kind. Pity you can't follow that example at least.
[...]
65 Then the high priest rent his clothes, saying, He hath spoken blasphemy; what further need have we of witnesses? behold, now ye have heard his blasphemy.
They accuse Him before Pilate - and what do they say? That He made Himself YHWH? Not at all. Here's their accusation:
John 19:7 The Jews answered him, We have a law, and by our law he ought to die, because
he made himself the Son of God.
They took up stones to stone Him to death for claiming that He was YHWH!
As shown above, He did nothing of the kind.
But now I think about it, you haven't answered my question: Why is Jesus NEVER described as God of gods?