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The Trinity

Free said:
This is going to go nowhere, so we should just call it a day.
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Yes, I think that you are continuing to harden your heart against the truth and therefore in relating these things to you, I am casting what is valuable in front of someone who does not see the value of what I am preaching; who might as a result trample my pearls underfoot and then turn again and rend me.

However, where you deny the truth, others will hear.

And I still have hopes for you that you might be able to eventually see as the result of my prayers for you.

I think that all you really need is to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth for the remission of sins.

Then you will have the Holy Ghost (an unction from the Holy One); and what you now consider foolishness will suddenly make sense to you.
 
In that I call it "my doctrine" this is not to in any way admit that the doctrine I am preaching is unbiblical. For, it is not unbiblical.

Just as Jesus' doctrine is not unbiblical.

And Paul's doctrine is not unbiblical.

Jhn 7:16, Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me.

2Ti 3:10, But thou hast fully known my doctrine, manner of life, purpose, faith, longsuffering, charity, patience,
 
About the OP:

I don't understand why trin Church has the need to make up the Trinity's doctrine.

Bible is clear about who God is:

John 20:17
Jesus said, “Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’”
 
grace2 said:
About the OP:

I don't understand why trin Church has the need to make up the Trinity's doctrine.

Bible is clear about who God is:

John 20:17
Jesus said, “Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’”
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There are many verses that need to be taken into consideration. The one you posted is one of many that show Jesus’s humanity, which Trinitarians fully agree with. But there are many verses which also show his deity, and just as those cannot trump the verses showing his humanity, the verses showing his humanity cannot trump his deity. All must be taken into account.
 
Free said:
There are many verses that need to be taken into consideration. The one you posted is one of many that show Jesus’s humanity, which Trinitarians fully agree with. But there are many verses which also show his deity, and just as those cannot trump the verses showing his humanity, the verses showing his humanity cannot trump his deity. All must be taken into account.
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Well, Jesus did not describe His Father and Himself the way trin churches do.

I always go back to what Jesus says.

And it is so clear to me what He says.

blessings.
 
grace2 said:
Well, Jesus did not describe His Father and Himself the way trin churches do.

I always go back to what Jesus says.

And it is so clear to me what He says.

blessings.
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Who do you say the Son is? Was he created before everything else or is he just human, as Jesus?
 
grace2 said:
Jesus is God's Son and His Father made Him a Lamb of God.

And Jesus claims His Father, His God, and our God.
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Yes, but did he only come into existence when he was born? Or was did he exist before he was born human?
 
grace2 said:
What does this have to do with the Trinity doctrine?
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Everything. The most important question Jesus asked the disciples was, “Who do you say that I am?” Jesus is the central figure and focus of the entirety of the Bible, through whom alone and in whose name alone we have salvation. It seems reasonable then to conclude that we need to get this right so that we believe in the God and Jesus of the Bible.

If Jesus isn’t God, then we have no salvation. Yet, we know he isn’t the Father. So, where and when did he come from?
 
Free said:
Everything. The most important question Jesus asked the disciples was, “Who do you say that I am?” Jesus is the central figure and focus of the entirety of the Bible, through whom alone and in whose name alone we have salvation. It seems reasonable then to conclude that we need to get this right so that we believe in the God and Jesus of the Bible.

If Jesus isn’t God, then we have no salvation. Yet, we know he isn’t the Father. So, where and when did he come from?
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It is your prerogative to believe in your doctrine.
I follow what Jesus says.

Jesus never claimed Himself God. He claims His Father is His God.
 
grace2 said:
It is your prerogative to believe in your doctrine.
I follow what Jesus says.
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Jesus said a lot of things that need to be taken into account. To take just one verse is to do violence to the context.

grace2 said:
Jesus never claimed Himself God.
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He did, though. In John 8:24, Jesus said that unless a person believed he was I Am, they would die in their sins. Then in 8:58 he claimed to be the I Am. The Jews recognized this and wanted to stone him for claiming to be blasphemy

grace2 said:
He claims His Father is His God.
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But this is fallaciously begging the question, which is why I asked you who Jesus is. Remember, John 1:1-18, John’s prologue, tells us who Jesus is, and that is central to his entire gospel. Whatever else he says or records about Jesus, must line up with that passage.

It should also be said that to claim to be the Son of God is a claim to deity. Again, the Jews recognized this and wanted to stone him for blasphemy (John 10:31-33).
 
Free said:
Jesus said a lot of things that need to be taken into account. To take just one verse is to do violence to the context.


He did, though. In John 8:24, Jesus said that unless a person believed he was I Am, they would die in their sins. Then in 8:58 he claimed to be the I Am. The Jews recognized this and wanted to stone him for claiming to be blasphemy


But this is fallaciously begging the question, which is why I asked you who Jesus is. Remember, John 1:1-18, John’s prologue, tells us who Jesus is, and that is central to his entire gospel. Whatever else he says or records about Jesus, must line up with that passage.

It should also be said that to claim to be the Son of God is a claim to deity. Again, the Jews recognized this and wanted to stone him for blasphemy (John 10:31-33).
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I don't have a habit of scrutinizing simple and clear statements of the Bible and Jesus.

IOW, I don't make simple gospel complicated.

blessings.
 
grace2 said:
I don't have a habit of scrutinizing simple and clear statements of the Bible and Jesus.

IOW, I don't make simple gospel complicated.

blessings.
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Then you cannot say the Trinity is made up. The verses I gave are just as clear as the one you gave. And there are many more. You are divorcing one verse from the context of the Bible, which is guaranteed to lead to error. We are supposed to study, deeply, and learn to rightly handle the word of truth (2 Tim 2:15), not ignore those things we don’t agree with or call doctrine false that we know nothing about.
 
grace2 said:
Yes, it is made up since it is not mentioned in the Bible.

They made up three gods and calls it triune god.
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No, you cannot say it is false. If you refuse to take all relevant verses into consideration, then you cannot know all that God reveals of himself and therefore do not understand the doctrine of the Trinity. That is evidenced by your false claim that “They made up three gods and call it triune.” All the foundations of the Trinity are in the Bible, that is the whole reason the doctrine came to be—it was discovered.

If you aren’t going to address other relevant verses and passages of Scripture and instead resort to false claims about the Trinity, then perhaps this discussion is not for you.
 
Free said:
No, you cannot say it is false. If you refuse to take all relevant verses into consideration, then you cannot know all that God reveals of himself and therefore do not understand the doctrine of the Trinity. That is evidenced by your false claim that “They made up three gods and call it triune.” All the foundations of the Trinity are in the Bible, that is the whole reason the doctrine came to be—it was discovered.

If you aren’t going to address other relevant verses and passages of Scripture and instead resort to false claims about the Trinity, then perhaps this discussion is not for you.
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As I said before, I don't try to scrutinize the simple word of God and Jesus makes it complicated.

It is a grave sin to do that.

We just have to agree to disagree.

blessings.
 
grace2 said:
As I said before, I don't try to scrutinize the simple word of God and Jesus makes it complicated.

It is a grave sin to do that.
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It’s not at all a sin to thoroughly study the Bible and do our best to understand what is said. It is a sin not to do that and can lead to serious error.

grace2 said:
We just have to agree to disagree.
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That seems to be just an excuse for poor theology based on poor study and an unwillingness to search for the truth.

This is the Theology forum, so if you aren’t going to engage in biblical discussion, then maybe you should not post in here.
 
netchaplain said:
It's ok, but we disagree. The Father, Son and Holy Spirit never had a beginning. They were at one time the only existing beings, until creation. "The beginning of the creation of God" is in the sense that Christ was the "beginner of the creation of God." It could also mean He was the first of the new creation. Nobody with the triune God needed to be created, since They did the creating.
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But you said before time or creation there were three separate beings. That seems quite contrary to very much scripture, and monotheism in general to me.
 
grace2,

Are you aware that Jesus made believing in His Deity an essential to salvation in John 8:24?

See also John 8:58, Exodus 3:14 (kjv); John 8:59, John 10:31-33; and Hebrews 1:8-9 (kjv).
 
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