The Two Dispensations

[netchaplain]

The following thread is directed to RevSRE and if the Admin/Mod team suggests using PM for this just let me know. Thanks! NC

To begin with I feel it should be noted that I do not believe in the term "spiritual Israel" when pertaining to the attempt to relate it to anyone within Christianity, because I've never seen Scripture relate the two as the same people. I believe it is often mistaken that Christianity will inherit anything (other than union with God, which does not presently include fellowship with Him) that Israel had, and will have during the Millennium.

Let me know if you have any questions so far about this.

 

[veryberry]

There is no "spiritual Israel". Romans 11 makes it very clear that God has not cast away Israel but are under temporary blindness. God will resume his dealings with Israel once the time we are living in comes to its conclusion.


as far as our inheritance goes.. We inherit much more than union with God. Romans 8:17 says, that we are joint heirs with Christ. We are also placed in seats in heavenly places with Christ as head(Ephesians), while Israel is placed in seats in the land that was promised with Christ as King.

 

[netchaplain]

There is no "spiritual Israel". Romans 11 makes it very clear that God has not cast away Israel but are under temporary blindness. God will resume his dealings with Israel once the time we are living in comes to its conclusion.


as far as our inheritance goes.. We inherit much more than union with God. Romans 8:17 says, that we are joint heirs with Christ. We are also placed in seats in heavenly places with Christ as head(Ephesians), while Israel is placed in seats in the land that was promised with Christ as King.

Hi VB - Amen! It's good to see your reply, which in my opinion is highly accurate. My studies on this subject have led me to consider the probability that God will be dealing with unbelieving (concerning the Lord Jesus) Israel in the Millennium (e.g. those who are alive at that time), but Scripture is not clear enough concerning this subject and is why many do not see it, so it is not often understood that prophecies related to this (i.e. Eze 36:26, 27; Jer 31:31-33) are to the blood lineage of Issac (Jacob, the last patriarchs).

 

[Malachi]

To begin with I feel it should be noted that I do not believe in the term "spiritual Israel" when pertaining to the attempt to relate it to anyone within Christianity, because I've never seen Scripture relate the two as the same people.

Actually, there is sufficient Scripture to indicate that there is such an entity as "the Israel of God", and this is in the context of all those who believe on the Lord Jesus Christ: For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature. And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God. (Gal 6:15,16).

In Romans 11, believing Israel is designated as "the good olive tree" whereas believing Gentiles are branches which have been taken from "the wild olive tree" and grafted into the good olive tree. So this is indeed the Israel of God, or the Church.

The Church began with Jewish believers, and then branched into those in Samaria, and other parts of the Roman Empire. On the day of Pentecost it was Jewish believers who received the gift of the Holy Spirit. So if we want to call them "spiritual Israel", that would be valid. We would understand this as "the Church" (redeemed Jews and Gentiles in one Body).

At the same time Replacement Theology is false. The Church does not replace Israel (the twelve tribes in the Promised Land). After the Church is completed, God will resume His dealings with the Jews and establish the redeemed and restored kingdom of Israel on earth. This is according to the Abrahamic and Davidic Covenants.

 

[netchaplain]

Actually, there is sufficient Scripture to indicate that there is such an entity as "the Israel of God"

Hi Mal and good post - I'm sill in research concerning this phrase within this passage (Gal 6), and is the only one that is not clearly designated as Jewish only.

So if we want to call them "spiritual Israel", that would be valid.

Yes, in the sense that Jews who are Christians are spiritual, same as anyone, but not in the sense as "spiritual Israel" is used within Replacement theology.

Appreciate the accurate reply! God Bless!

 

[netchaplain]

In Romans 11, believing Israel is designated as "the good olive tree" whereas believing Gentiles are branches which have been taken from "the wild olive tree" and grafted into the good olive tree.

I believe 11:17 is referring to the unbelieving Jews as "broken off" and the Gentiles represent the "wild olive tree."

 

[jasonc]

Delineate a non spiritual saved jew or a saved hebrew.please explain sufficiently the soul of these that are in the physical sense only.

Also what is the difference between the man moses who believed but never saw Jesus in person and was givin the torah and Paul who had all the revalation up to his time.? Both are Hebrews.

I really need to study under a rabbi on this.there's more to the tanach then just what is often read and taught.

 

[RevSRE]

I believe 11:17 is referring to the unbelieving Jews as "broken off" and the Gentiles represent the "wild olive tree."

First thank you for this thread, it is already good.
Second, I DO NOT KNOW! I am trying to learn. There are statements in the Bible that seem to be often taught wrong.I
Third, I am not dispensational in my thought, The Bible is one continuous story. I try to look at what the Bible says not teachings of the Church or men.

The first half of Isaiah discusses failure and rebellion judgement and destruction of Nations, and He speaks of a REMNANT and a GREAT ROOT that all will be grafted into.
Isa_1:9 Unless the LORD of hosts had left unto us a very small remnant, we should have been as Sodom, and we should have been like unto Gomorrah.
Isa_10:20 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the remnant of Israel, and such as are escaped of the house of Jacob, shall no more again lean upon him that struck them; but shall lean upon the LORD, the Holy One of Israel, in truth.
Isa_10:21 The remnant shall return, even the remnant of Jacob, unto the mighty God.
Isa_10:22 For though your people Israel be as the sand of the sea, yet a remnant of them shall return: the destruction decreed shall overflow with righteousness.
Isa_6:13 But yet in it shall be a tenth, and it shall return, and shall be laid waste: as a terebinth tree, and as an oak, whose stump remains, when they are cut down: so the holy seed shall be its stump.

Rom 11:16 For if the firstfruit are holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root is holy, so are the branches.
Rom 11:17 And if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them, and with them partake of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
Rom 11:18 Boast not against the branches. But if you boast, you bear not the root, but the root you.
Rom 11:19 You will say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in.


It seems to me this remnant refers to the ones true to Gods commands and returned to their land.
Paul is referring to the "Stump" that remained saying all are "Grafted into the Tree Root the Holy SEED JESUS.

So I see the nation that rejected God and worshiped Idols went into captivity and never returned AND then the REMNANT That returned were true to what God said and replaced the Nation as God's people. Remnant, Spiritual Israel, God's People, what you call them is not so important. We Christians are Grafted into that group.

YES, God is not finished with Israel The Nation Both the Tribulation and the Millennium will include them. we are told a third of them will enter the Millennium as living people on earth, What God has in mind I have no Idea.

Remember I am not telling you WHAT IS, I am asking what does it SAY!!

 

[Malachi]

Third, I am not dispensational in my thought, The Bible is one continuous story.

The Bible is indeed one continuous story and salvation (justification) has always been by grace through faith either in anticipation of the Lamb of God or in remembrance of Him, but divided into phases. Dispensationalists call them dispensations since Scripture uses that term for the final dispensation: That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: (Eph 1:10). [Strong's Exhaustive Concordance dispensation, stewardship. From oikonomos; administration (of a household or estate); specially, a (religious) "economy" -- dispensation, stewardship.]

So are there more than two dispensations, or periods of time when God has related to men in different ways? Definitely, and they are also closely related to the covenants of God.

Some consider the brief time before the Fall as a dispensation, but I don't believe this can be rightly called a dispensation, nor can one say that God made a covenant with Adam.

Then we have the period from the Fall to the Flood. This is called the dispensation of conscience (Gen 4:7). Next we have the dispensation of civil government (corresponding to the Noahic Covenant), followed by that of patriarchs (corresponding to the Abrahamic Covenant). Then comes the Mosaic Covenant (the dispensation of the Law), followed by the New Covenant (the dispensation of grace, and the Church Age). This will be followed by Daniel's 70th Week (the Tribulation and the Great Tribulation), then the Millennium, and finally the dispensation of the fulness of times (the eternal state).

Dispensationalism sees the Church as distinct from Israel (as already discussed above), even though the Church is called "the Israel of God". The reason for this is simply because portions of the Abrahamic and Davidic Covenants have not been fulfilled as yet.

 

[RevSRE]

So are there more than two dispensations, or periods of time when God has related to men in different ways?

I agree that there are "Periods of time" what every we call them that God's dealing with people was different based on the revelation and teaching they had. We look back over thousands of years and SOME try to hold the ones of past times accountable for what we think we know. I feel you cannot do that, they are only accountable for what God had given them.

As for ADAM, yes he disobeyed God in the garden. Mankind lost a lot in that. But there (I think) was a covenant with Adam. God shed blood to cover shame and in so doing taught Adam about the Blood offering for Sin. Adam taught the Blood sacrifice to his offspring and All Godly men from Adam to Moses made that offering. God taught Adam of The Promise and that the Messiah would one day come.
I KNOW THIS IS NOT WHAT MOST TEACH, BUT, In the Garden, God shed blood to cover sin and shame, ADAM left the garden under that blood in RIGHT standing with GOD. ALL PEOPLE OF ALL TIME FROM ADAM ON ARE SAVED BY THE SAME GRACE.

For more complete discussion Read "Two Roads out of Time and Into Eternity"
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1zZR_LknVD7WGaiobl_3RahoeYtV4bCzaWrB-UNbaTSo

 

[netchaplain]

salvation (justification) has always been by grace through faith

Amen, God does nothing outside of grace and by it teaches mankind his love and desire for them in showing them their sin nature and His provisions for union and fellowship with Him, first evidenced by His provision of covering Adam and Eve with animal "skins." This "covering" represents God's forgiveness and I believe this is the first analogy of the Lord Jesus' expiation, in that "without shedding of blood is no remission" (Heb 9:22), which God performed for Adam and Eve in the taking of animal's lives for the "coats of skins" (Gen 3:21).

So are there more than two dispensations, or periods of time when God has related to men in different ways?

Yes, I believe a third dispensation is the Millennium Kingdom because it transpires on the present earth prior to the new earth, which will begin eternity and no more dispensations. I used that title because they are the only ones thus far. My acceptance is of only three dispensations; before Christ, after Him, and the final conclusion of this life (Millennium).

nor can one say that God made a covenant with Adam.

I agree, and there was no covenant necessary because they already had an understanding concerning what God commanded (Gen 2:16) and what He forebode (v 17).

The reason for this is simply because portions of the Abrahamic and Davidic Covenants have not been fulfilled as yet.

Very well put, and one of the present confusions with many because of these covenants (esp, Abraham's because it was the first--not considering Noah's) concerning the nation Israel is that God is going to apply the Ezek/Jer covenants to the remaining unbelieving Isrealites at His coming, and it is with this concept where many disagree because it applies a final "new covenant" to them which is not the present covenant between the Father and the Son. All covenants derive from "the everlasting covenant" between the Father and Son (Heb 13:20, 21).

 

[Not_Now.Soon]

Has anyone considered Isaiah 11?

 

[Malachi]

Has anyone considered Isaiah 11?

This chapter gives us a glimpse of the Millennium and beyond. It is interesting that Christ is both the Root, as well as the Branch out of the roots of Jesse (from the tribe of Judah), and the rod He wields is absolute rule over all the nations on earth (which is yet future). Christ is called the Branch in several Scriptures.

 

[Not_Now.Soon]

This chapter gives us a glimpse of the Millennium and beyond. It is interesting that Christ is both the Root, as well as the Branch out of the roots of Jesse (from the tribe of Judah), and the rod He wields is absolute rule over all the nations on earth (which is yet future). Christ is called the Branch in several Scriptures.

While I agree with that assessment. There is one other thing to think on. Verse 10 says "In that day the root of Jesse, who shall stand as a signal for the peoples—of him shall the nations inquire, and his resting place."

This isn't the only place I think that mention of other nations come about when referring to those prophesied times. Jesus's is called the Lord of Lords, and the King of Kings. Not just the Lord of Isreal, and Isreal spans the entire earth. (Or even the new earth.) So does that mean there will be other nations as well. Possibly Isreal is still where Jesus reigns, and Jewish lineage lives in Isreal, but other nations still inhabit the earth? Perhaps Christians of non Jewish origins, or believers in God throughout history that were not Isrealies.

I don't know, but I think there is more to consider, or even rely on faith even if we don't find an answer.

 

[jasonc]

Curious who Is the prince in Ezekiel?

 

[Malachi]

So does that mean there will be other nations as well.

Absolutely. Israel will be central to everything, but there will be many other saved nations on earth during and after the Millennium.
And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it. (Rev 21:24).

 

[Malachi]

Curious who Is the prince in Ezekiel?

Ezekiel tells us plainly that he will be David -- the same king David who wrote the Psalms.

And David my servant shall be king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd: they shall also walk in my judgments, and observe my statutes, and do them. And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob my servant, wherein your fathers have dwelt; and they shall dwell therein,even they, and their children, and their children's children for ever: and my servant David shall be their prince for ever. (Ezek 37:24,25).

 

[jasonc]

David is raised,a sinner. He needs to atone via Animal sacrifice.just noting. I don't see that as a possibility. No gentile who is a lady can enter into the inner court,to give an offering nor gentile.thus is why I'm amil.the law returns .the cross supercedes the law.

 

[Not_Now.Soon]

Absolutely. Israel will be central to everything, but there will be many other saved nations on earth during and after the Millennium.
And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it. (Rev 21:24).

I wanted to bring up the nations in relation to the discussion of "Spiritual Israel," and Christians inheriting the promises of Israel.

 

[Malachi]

David is raised,a sinner. He needs to atone via Animal sacrifice.just noting. I don't see that as a possibility. No gentile who is a lady can enter into the inner court,to give an offering nor gentile.thus is why I'm amil.the law returns .the cross supercedes the law.

No David is not raised a sinner since David is presently in Heaven (with all the OT saints), and everything is under the New Covenant in Ezekiel. But we do not really know all the details, as to how and why the Temple is built and Temple sacrifices resumed. All we do know is that is the future Israel on earth under Christ.