The Two Witnesses of Revelation

[Georges]

Clearly Moshe Rabainu and Eliyahu.

Also, this my or may not be coincidence but I believe the two witnesses do their work during the millenium (for those nations who are left alive after Messiah delivers his bride, Israel). Compare Zechariah 14:17-19 and Revelation 11:6.

Also, I know they are Moshe and Eliyahu because Peter recognizes this on the mount of transfiguration. If we read Zechariah 14:16-21, we find that the kingdom is come and all families of the earth will be keeping Sukkot (Tabernacles, whether literally or figuratively) or will be plagued with no rain or some other plague.

This is, I guess, what that thingy was about when Messiah was transfigured. Peter, remembering Zechariah 14:16-21, asked to build 3 sukkot (ever wonder why he asked that, lol?)

Anyway, the point is Moshe and Eliyahu were there when Messiah was transfigured. Tie it in with Zechariah and I think we've figured it out.

Also, on a more personal level, I believe the two olive trees and the two witnesses are the two houses of Israel typified by Moshe and Eliyahu since Moshe was a Levite (part of Judah) and Eliyahu was an Ephraimite, so both houses are represented.

Thanks for the input, I never considered the 2 in connection with Sukkot although I did realize the Sukkot implication of the Messianic Millennium with the transfiguration passage obviously gives. However, it may be possible that the scene would show that (as a proof to the disciples) this is what they would also appear to look like during the future kingdom period.

and, consider that the 2 witnesses do not have glorified bodies in that they are killed and then resurrected.

It is possible that they carry on thir work during the Messianic Kingdom period, but I think their main mission is a call to repentance at some point of the trib period.

 

[strengthened]

Are the 2 witnesses be considered as Saints?

 

[Georges]

Are the 2 witnesses be considered as Saints?

Any righteous believer in God, is a Saint....OT and NT..

 

[strengthened]

Are the 2 witnesses be considered as Saints?

Any righteous believer in God, is a Saint....OT and NT..

Thank you.

So, the 2 witnesses are our brethren and our fellow servants as well.

Revelation 6

10 they cried out with a loud voice, "O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before thou wilt judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell upon the earth?" 11 Then they were each given a white robe and told to rest a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brethren should be complete, who were to be killed as they themselves had been.

I now ask, when will it be completed?

Thanks.

 

[Georges]

Are the 2 witnesses be considered as Saints?

Any righteous believer in God, is a Saint....OT and NT..

Thank you.

So, the 2 witnesses are our brethren and our fellow servants as well.

Yep...IMO, they will be most likely, Moses and Elijah, or not as likely Enoch and Elijah. Many folks think it may be Enoch, but Jewish Tradition holds that Enoch was translated possibly into the angel Metatron (don't hold me to that one). It's got to be Moses and Elijah and they will be servants doing Gods bidding.

Revelation 6

10 they cried out with a loud voice, "O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before thou wilt judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell upon the earth?" 11 Then they were each given a white robe and told to rest a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brethren should be complete, who were to be killed as they themselves had been.

I now ask, when will it be completed?

Thanks.

In my opinion, when The Messiah returns in Rev 19.

 

[strengthened]

Yep...IMO, they will be most likely, Moses and Elijah, or not as likely Enoch and Elijah. Many folks think it may be Enoch, but Jewish Tradition holds that Enoch was translated possibly into the angel Metatron (don't hold me to that one). It's got to be Moses and Elijah and they will be servants doing Gods bidding.

Yes. It has to be Moses and Elijah. Would you agree with me that the 2 witnesses will come by the spirit of Moses and Elijah, which is by the Holy Spirit and not as physically?

Revelation 6

10 they cried out with a loud voice, "O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before thou wilt judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell upon the earth?" 11 Then they were each given a white robe and told to rest a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brethren should be complete, who were to be killed as they themselves had been.

I now ask, when will it be completed?

Thanks.

In my opinion, when The Messiah returns in Rev 19.

Since the 2 witnesses are our brethren and fellow servant, and when they are killed by the beast, would this complete the number of saints slain?

Re 11:7 And when they have finished their testimony, the beast that ascends from the bottomless pit will make war upon them and conquer them and kill them,

 

[Darrell dunn]

QUESTION Who was the first 69 weeks of the covenant between?

Dan.9;2 the Lord came to Jeremiah the prophet, that he would accomplish seventy years in the desolations of Jerusalem. WHO? with WHOM?

Ok its not a covenant, but the HE in this verse is God and HE is going to start and finish the 70 weeks. Not the AC.

 

[JM]

Does the Bible tell us who the two witnesses are? In the book of Revelation I couldn't find any names, so I'll have to say maybe God didn't tell us for a reason.

 

[strengthened]

We can get clues from other verses actually to get the whole picture of Revelation.

Regarding Elijah:

Malachi 4:5 "Behold, I will send you Eli'jah the prophet before the great and terrible day of the LORD comes.

Who was with Elijah always?

Mt 17:3 And behold, there appeared to them Moses and Eli'jah, talking with him.

Mr 9:4 And there appeared to them Eli'jah with Moses; and they were talking to Jesus.

Lu 9:30 And behold, two men talked with him, Moses and Eli'jah,

Lu 9:33 And as the men were parting from him, Peter said to Jesus, "Master, it is well that we are here; let us make three booths, one for you and one for Moses and one for Eli'jah" --not knowing what he said.

It was Moses who was with Elijah.

The power the 2 witnesses is the power of Moses and Elijah through the Holy Spirit:

Re 11:6 They have power to shut the sky, that no rain may fall during the days of their prophesying, and they have power over the waters to turn them into blood, and to smite the earth with every plague, as often as they desire.

 

[Georges]

Strengthened....my opinion in red.

Yep...IMO, they will be most likely, Moses and Elijah, or not as likely Enoch and Elijah. Many folks think it may be Enoch, but Jewish Tradition holds that Enoch was translated possibly into the angel Metatron (don't hold me to that one). It's got to be Moses and Elijah and they will be servants doing Gods bidding.

Yes. It has to be Moses and Elijah. Would you agree with me that the 2 witnesses will come by the spirit of Moses and Elijah, which is by the Holy Spirit and not as physically?

IMO, I believe that they will actually be Moses and Elijah in the flesh. I base this on the fact that they are physically killed and resurrected. Many folks don't think that Moses can't be one of the 2 because Moses died once before physically, however, there is mystery surrounding the burial place of his body and traditions surrounding it. As with Lazarus, it is possible to come back from the dead in the earthly body. I understand your statement of the "spirit" as John the B had the spirit of Elijah, but even though John had the spirit of Elijah, he wasn't Elijah (himself) in the flesh.

[quote:61ec4]Revelation 6

10 they cried out with a loud voice, "O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before thou wilt judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell upon the earth?" 11 Then they were each given a white robe and told to rest a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brethren should be complete, who were to be killed as they themselves had been.

I now ask, when will it be completed?

Thanks.

In my opinion, when The Messiah returns in Rev 19.

Since the 2 witnesses are our brethren and fellow servant, and when they are killed by the beast, would this complete the number of saints slain?

Re 11:7 And when they have finished their testimony, the beast that ascends from the bottomless pit will make war upon them and conquer them and kill them,

IMO, these two will call many people to repentance. I can't believe that with their witnessing, that none would repent. Now if many repent as a result of their witnessing, then these will live to be persecuted. In short, I think the persecution will continue after they (2 wits) are raptured.

[/quote:61ec4]


Thanks for the post....Geo.

 

[Georges]

Does the Bible tell us who the two witnesses are? In the book of Revelation I couldn't find any names, so I'll have to say maybe God didn't tell us for a reason.

JM,

As Strengthened in the above post mentioned some of the verses that support Elijah and Moses, I direct you to the 5th post on this thread. In it I list several Jewish sources........Jewish sources not Christian.......if the Jewish sources that indicate Elijah and Moses as the 2 witnesses (a supposed Christian concept), or at the very least they will re-appear before the people at the beginning of the Messianic kingdom doesn't convince someone...I don't think anything but a visual sighting will convince them..... :D

 

[strengthened]

Another thing to note about the 2 witnesses, I think they will also be caught up in heaven together with the saints.

Rev 11:12 Then they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, "Come up hither!" And in the sight of their foes they went up to heaven in a cloud.

1 Thessalonians 4 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18 Wherefore comfort F11 one another with these words.


Regarding the verses above, I think this is a parallel event. They hear a loud voice in heaven and the Lord shall descend from heaven with a shout. And the shout they hear is, "Come up hither!"

The 2 witnesses are also counted as among the tens of thousands dead in Christ and they shall rise first.

 

[JM]

Judaism has 2 sets of possible candidates for the 2 witnesses of Revelation.

Hey brother, it's possible that you are correct. I just don't think it's much of an issue for me...yet... :-D

 

[Georges]

Judaism has 2 sets of possible candidates for the 2 witnesses of Revelation.

Hey brother, it's possible that you are correct. I just don't think it's much of an issue for me...yet... :-D

That's ok Bruddah......does it matter in the long run? Besides it shouldn't be an issue...it's just interesting how Jewish eschatology plays out.

 

[Terral]

The Final Two Witnesses In Revelation Are Adam And Eve

Hi George:

Thank you for asking these questions.

George Asks >> The Two Witnesses, who are they? Why are there only 2? Cast your vote and opine....

I could not vote from your choices above, because the answer is not among them. The combined powers of these ‘last’ two witnesses are those of the ‘cultivator of the land’ and the ‘first’ two witnesses of Genesis 2; Adam (spirit) and Eve (water). Elijah (spirit) and Moses (water) are types of the first man and woman from whom all their descendants are being gathered to the Judgment (good seed = Seth, bad seed = Cain) at the ‘end of the age.’ The ‘breath of life’ from God (Revelation 11:11) comes to them like the way Adam was formed in Genesis 2:7 (“breath of life.â€Â). Then the father and mother of us all are called up to heaven, so the final battle between the good and evil seed can take place in “Har-Megedon†(Revelation 16:16).

Elijah is a poor choice, because he is prophesied to come alone (Malachi 4:5-6, Matthew 17:10-11). He returned to restore the Kingdom and Temple that the Antichrist will use to set up his “abomination of desolation†(Matthew 24:15). That STARTED the ‘times and epochs’ (1 Thessalonians 5:1-2) period where the kingdom was indeed restored to Israel (Acts 1:6-7). These ‘end of the age’ events are taking place almost 1000 years LATER and the two witnesses (the third is unseen = angelic hosts) after ‘all things’ (Acts 3:21) have already been restored and the ‘times and epochs’ period is over. There should be three witnesses present (1 John 5:7-8), but the angelic hosts protecting these visible witnesses are working behind the scenes. Note that anyone trying to harm these two witnesses “must be killed in this way†(Revelation 11:5). The angels are unseen and invisible, but they head their enemies off at the pass and kill them in the same way. Enoch is also a bad choice to try and plug into this prophecy, because he was translated alone in his 365th year (Genesis 5:21-22) to typify Christ raising the faithful up on the ‘last day’ (John 6:39-40, etc.). 365 is the number of days in one year and the 365th day is the ‘last day.’

The ‘Adam and Eve’ interpretation is supported by the knowledge that the combined powers of Moses and Elijah in the Old Testament are indeed the powers of the cultivator of the land of the Garden of Eden. Adam would have the power to call down the fire from heaven to clear the land and the power to make the rain also (or drought). He could divide the rivers and walk anywhere in the Land of the Garden he desired. This also appears to follow Christ’s teaching on the first being last and the last being first (Mark 10:31, Luke 13:30, etc.), but that is mere speculation. If we do name these final two witnesses Adam and Eve and realize that the final conflict between their good and bad seed is about to take place, then we can connect the dots between this final battle and the curse upon the serpent in Genesis 3:15 being fulfilled between “your seed and her seed.†After all, Christ returns at the ‘end of the age’ (Matthew 24:30) and Satan is thrown into the lake of fire (Revelation 20:10) with all of those belonging to him (Revelation 20:11-15).

Thank you again for asking these very good questions,

In Christ Jesus,

Terral

 

[disruptor]

Strengthened said:

I think they will also be caught up in heaven together with the saints.

Forgive my ignorance, but the "witnesses" don't exactly sound like they deserve heaven to me:

Rev 11:9-10 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their [=the witnesses'] dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.

And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth".

So how do we reconcile these verses with the view of the witnesses as saintly? They that "dwell upon the Earth" is a fairly all-encompassing statement and must include Christians, and "torment" is a blunt condemnation of the witnesses' behaviour, especially given that the Beast rises from hell to kill them (or to claim his own, one might say).

Now, Rev 11:5 and 11:6 say:

And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.

These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.

Is this not a perfect description of the massive nuclear, chemical and bacteriological destructive power wielded over us by our masters, the Zionist administrations of DC and Tel Aviv? That's who I think these "witnesses" are. Otherwise what is Rev 2:9 supposed to mean??

Why must we see them as positive figures? I would be grateful for any clarification.

 

[Vic C.]

Rev 11:3 And I (the Lord) will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

You took verses out of their context and built a theory around them. Lets look at the entire passage, as it clearly explains who they are, who sent them and their purpose.

Rev 11:3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
Rev 11:4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
Rev 11:5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.
Rev 11:6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.
Rev 11:7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
Rev 11:8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
Rev 11:9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.
Rev 11:10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.
Rev 11:11 And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.
Rev 11:12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.

 

[disruptor]

I am still unclear as to how merely quoting the whole passage at me resolves the very specific issue raised, and concerning which I still request clarification:

Why should any Christian respect these two "witnesses" when the whole world population including Christians rejoiced at their deaths because of the torment they had caused?

The reanimation (or reappearance) of the "witnesses" is then followed by an attack on the city seemingly from above (interpreted in the text as from God) as the reanimated "witnesses" ascend in a cloud with a simultaneous earthquake destroying a part of the city and seven thousand people.

The visions of our own end-time in Revelation are being described by someone living almost two thousand years ago who was unfamiliar with the technology, weapons and communications systems of our time except through his visions. This also goes for the scribes and the KJV translators.

Other points to note:

1. There is no actual word for "power" in the Greek at Rev 11:3. It is an unjustified addition by the translators.

2. "Witness" doesn't have to be a divine witness, especially as they didn't receive any "power". Given the "sackcloth" comment, they sound like stooges of our true earthly rulers (DC/TA; Rev 3:9) who appear in Rev 11:11 and kill people (including Christians, since the 7000 killed must include them, Rev 11:2).

3. Both olive tree and candlestick stand before the God of the Earth (and not the God of Heaven, Rev 11:4). And who is the God of this world? None other than Satan:

2 Cor 4:4 In whom the god of this world [=Satan] hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

And the Bible also warns us that Satan can disguise himself as God:

2 Cor 11:14-15 For even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light. Therefore it is not surprising if his servants also disguise themselves as servants of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their deeds".

4. And when these "witnesses" of Satan-disguised-as-God have gone, only then does it go on to say:

Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become [the kingdoms] of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

This only happens now that the two are gone, and Christians are now able to reclaim the Temple of Rev 11:2. Prior to the two false "witnesses" tormenting everyone, Christians were restricted to outside the Temple.

For the time being, I shall stick with this interpretation until someone shows me the Biblical error of my ways.

http://antichristconspiracy.com/

 

[Vic C.]

First of all, Christians have no part of claiming or reclaiming any Temple. We have no need for a temple as Christ is our Temple. This Physical Temple is meant for Israel.

Yes, they are before the god of this world. This however does not mean they are of the god of this world. Nowhere does this passage imply that. Hey, David stood 'before' Goliath. I guess David was a Philistine.

You need to take Christians out of the equation. This is all happenning during God's wrath. Rev 6:17 Christians will be gone 1 Thess 5:9, unless you believe in a post trib or post wrath "rapture". The ones rejoicing are the unrighteous one left on Earth. The torment these "witnesses" inflict on these people will coincide with God's wrath against the very same unrighteous ones. They are doing the will of God.

At this point, you may want to do some research on olive trees and candlesticks. Also, your comment about sackchoths and stooges is just off the wall. Look at the way John the Baptist dresses and what he ate. I guess he was a stooge too.

Do some research as to what sackcloth is and why it was worn in Biblical times.

Lets skip the KJ and go straight to a Literal translation:

3 ¶ And I will give to My two witnesses, and they will prophesy a thousand, two hundred and sixty days, dressed in sackcloth. (LITV)

3and I will give to My two witnesses, and they shall prophesy days, a thousand, two hundred, sixty, arrayed with sackcloth; (YLT)

This is the Lord speaking to John. This is not Satan talking to him. I can't see how you can say these witnesses of are from anyone else than God Himself. To do so is to add to this passage something that is just not there. These witnesses are preaching prophesy.

You may stick to your theory if you like. No problem here. I see no use in debating against scripture though. I'd rather stick to whatever literal meaning I can derive from this passage. If you want to refute my commentaries on this passage, that's fine too. Hopefully someone else will jump in and fill any gaps or correct me wherever I err.

On a sidenote, may I ask why you chose the username you use? :-?

 

[disruptor]

Thank you for your well-meaning reply, but I am sorry to say that, in my stubbornness, I still see no reason to accept that the "witnesses" are anything other than SATAN's, since they stand before SATAN (Rev 11:4; 2 Cor 4:4.

I mean, this is basic Christianity and I am not wrong about this! Standing before their god-of-the-earth means exactly what it says! - and do our hypocrite satanist politicians not mouth off about God continuously while standing before their true god Satan? Revelation 11 merely says it as it is.

I agree that Christ is our Temple, exactly as you say... I am no enemy of allegory, so to speak. This very forum thread is an attempt to reclaim this particular passage for Christ from Satan (or at least that's how I see it).

However, my personal opinion is that the physical temple does also matter, and that it is not meant for what we wrongly call "Israel" because of Rev 3:9 - but as I say, that's just a personal opinion (shared by every crusader through Christian history, I might add...).

The rejoicing (Rev 11:10) when the witnesses are killed (which rejoicing I shall share when the time comes - sorry, Vic!) is also not easy to explain away. "Ascending" doesn't support the view that the witnesses are divine since, I remind you, Satan is the "prince of the power of the air". (Eph 2:2).

Anyone who mistakenly insists that these are witnesses of the God of Heaven when they are clearly stated to be witnesses of the god of the earth (=Satan) should consider whether they themselves might be victims of Satanic delusion.

For the sake of your souls, please re-read the passage in the light of what has been said. This has nothing to do with trivial point-scoring on a forum, this is about whether Satan can fool Christians into his worship. Apparently, on this forum, he has almost succeeded.

For your information, Vic, I disrupt the work of Satan and his earthly servants.

:smt070

1 Cor 6:3 Know ye not that we shall judge angels?