The Unchangeableness of God and the Will of God

[Kermos]

"Not forced" and "detached" are referring to the the same concept with respect to free-will. Perhaps an analogy will help.

IMAGINE a shiny red sports car free and zipping through mountain roads. The car's engine roaring through the straight aways, and the car coasting through the curves.

When the car is detached from a tow truck, then the car is not forced by the tow truck; moreover, the car moves because of the car's engine, so the car is forced by the car's own engine itself.

On the other hand...

When the car is attached to a tow truck, then the car is forced by the tow truck; moreover, the car moves because of the tow truck's engine, so the car is not forced by the car's own engine.

We do not say "the engine is free to drive the roads", but we do say "the car is free to navigate the streets". After all, the engine by itself goes nowhere because it requires the drivetrain, the wheels, the chassis, and so on; therefore, we refer to the whole system as a car, and "car" is the proper level of abstraction (or classification) to indicate as "free to drive the roads". A tow truck is also "free to drive the roads", so "car" and "tow truck" are at the same abstraction level in reference to "free to drive the roads".

On the other hand, "engine" is at the wrong abstraction level in reference to "free to drive the roads" when "car" and "tow truck" are being compared and contrasted with respect to "free to drive the roads". The "car" and the "tow truck" are vehicles, and each vehicle has it's own "engine".

We must compare like-for-like to arrive at accurate conclusions, so the "car" and the "tow truck" are similarly classed as vehicles for truthful comparison purposes, yet the "tow truck" is dissimilar to the "car" "engine" which means these fail like-for-like comparison purposes; in other words, the tow truck being compared to the car's engine is a comparison at two different levels of abstraction which renders an illogical comparison resulting in a false conclusion.

For purposes of this analogy, the engine is analogous to "will", and the car is analogous to a person, and the tow truck is analogous to God. As can be endemic to analogies, this analogy employs shadow that is overwhelmingly inferior to the substance.

Essentially, the word "free" is the wrong terminology in the phrase "free-will" because a "will" is attached to a particular person; therefore, the appropriate terminology for a person's self-controlled "will" is "self-will" for humans (2 Peter 2:9-10).

Truly, Free-willian Philosophers are talking about "detached" in reference to free-will, whether such philosophers like it or not.

As I wrote previously, largely, I use free will to mean man choosing toward God, emphatically Lord Jesus Christ. This narrows the focus, so the distinction between salvation (Philippians 2:14) and damnation (2 Peter 2:9-10) is highly relevant.

 

[donadams]

Ezra 3:5
And afterward offered the continual burnt offering, both of the new moons, and of all the set feasts of the Lord that were consecrated, and of every one that willingly offered a freewill offering unto the Lord.

Psalm 54:6
I will freely sacrifice unto thee: I willpraise thy name, O Lord; for it is good.

1. 
   Exodus 18:25
   And Moses chose able men out of all Israel, and made them heads over the people, rulers of thousands, rulers of hundreds, rulers of fifties, and rulers of tens.

Luke 10:42
But one thing is needful: and Mary hath chosen that good part, which shall not be taken away from her.

Acts 1:24
And they prayed, and said, Thou, Lord, which knowest the hearts of all men, shew whether of these two thou hast chosen,

 

[donadams]

What does “if” mean?

Romans 8:17
And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and I joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

2 Timothy 2:12
If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:

Requires free will!

 

[gordon777]

God LITERALLY stated that the CAUSE was Adam LISTENED to Adam's wife's voice; moveover, free will choice is NOT included as a CAUSE; therefore, the Apostle Paul's conveyance that Adam "not willingly" ate of the tree (Romans 8:20) is in accord with the recorded Word of God in Genesis 3:17.

The glory revealed is Christ in us the hope of glory.

The creature waits for the manifestation of that glory.

The creature was subjected by God in hope.

That creature, ( subjected in hope/this mystery among the Gentiles, which is Christ in us the hope of glory.) shall be delivered from corruption, by the same glorious liberty of the children of God. ( where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. We all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.)

We are saved by hope, but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man sees, what does he yet hope for? But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.


Romans 8:18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.
19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?
25 But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.

2 Corinthians 3:17 Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.
18 But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.

Colossians 1:27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:



Adam offended, Adam disobeyed, Adam transgressed.

Adam passed that onto others, who also offended, disobeyed, and transgressed.

Jesus Christ glorified the Father, obeyed, and kept what the Father had shown to Him. ( all in Christ who believe in Him, give glory to God, obey Him and keep what Christ did, to set them free from what other still do, which is offending, disobeying, and transgressing.)



Romans 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

Romans 5:17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

1 Corinthians 10:31 Whether therefore ye eat, or drink, or whatsoever ye do, do all to the glory of God.
32 Give none offence, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God:
33 Even as I please all men in all things, not seeking mine own profit, but the profit of many, that they may be saved.

 

[gordon777]

"Yes it is antichrist to think that God does not change" (the word of gordon777).

"I, YHWH, do not change" (The Word of God, Malachi 3:6).

In effect, you declared the Word of God is antichrist.

No passage you cite states that God changes, for example, Jude 1:5 shows the steadfastness of God because out of all the people saved from Egypt, the unbelievers specifically were destroyed - God distinguished that not every last single one the people were destroyed. You preach falsehood.

In 2 Peter 2:3-6, the self-willed people are condemned by God. Self-willed people includes free-willian philosophers.

Stop speaking unless you have understanding.


God does not change compared to the changing of Israel.

God is longsuffering, that is why Israel was not consumed, but returns all their evil back onto them, by coming to earth, Jesus Christ, to be a swift witness against the sorcerers, and against the adulterers, and against false swearers, and against those that oppress the hireling in his wages, the widow, and the fatherless, and that turn aside the stranger from his right, and fear not me, says the Lord of hosts.


Malachi 3:5 And I will come near to you to judgment; and I will be a swift witness against the sorcerers, and against the adulterers, and against false swearers, and against those that oppress the hireling in his wages, the widow, and the fatherless, and that turn aside the stranger from his right, and fear not me, saith the Lord of hosts.
6 For I am the Lord, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.
7 Even from the days of your fathers ye are gone away from mine ordinances, and have not kept them. Return unto me, and I will return unto you, saith the Lord of hosts. But ye said, Wherein shall we return?
8 Will a man rob God? Yet ye have robbed me. But ye say, Wherein have we robbed thee? In tithes and offerings.
9 Ye are cursed with a curse: for ye have robbed me, even this whole nation.



That was the Lord changing, to make a new thing in the earth.


Isaiah 43:19 Behold, I will do a new thing; now it shall spring forth; shall ye not know it? I will even make a way in the wilderness, and rivers in the desert.

Jeremiah 31:22 How long wilt thou go about, O thou backsliding daughter? for the Lord hath created a new thing in the earth, A woman shall compass a man.

 

[Kermos]

A lot of talk there and all complete lies.


If a person has no free will, they cant have belief in God accredited as righteousness, God gave preaching to save us, some believe and some turn from the faith, it is completely free will.

Your lies are blown away, by just one chapter.



Galatians 3:1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?
2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
4 Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain.
5 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.
7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.
8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.
9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.

You open your post there with your closely held thoughts of "A lot of talk there and all complete lies" as the very next post to this post to you containing the Truth (John 14:6), so you just proved out that you call the Word of God a lie. We see that the faith mentioned by Paul in Galatians 3:1-9 is the work of God and not of man's control as is born out of the Word of God shown in the next few paragraphs.

In effect, your thoughts there call a lie this saying of the Christ of us Christians,
“you did not choose Me, but I chose you” (John 15:16), and no Christian calls the Word of God a lie.

No Scripture states man has a free-will to choose Jesus, and these quotes of the Word of God reveals your self-willed (2 Peter 2:9-10) deceptive use of Scripture, and "free-will" absent from every Scripture you mentioned.

In effect, your thoughts there call a lie this saying of the Christ of us Christians, “I chose you out of the world” (John 15:19), and no Christian calls the Word of God a lie.

In effect, your thoughts there call a lie this word from the Apostle Paul, “Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly [places] in Christ, just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him in love” (Ephesians 1:3-4), and no Christian calls the Word of God a lie.

The Word of God in John 15:16 and John 15:19 state God exclusively chooses us believers by/of/through God.

In effect, your thoughts there call a lie this saying of the Christ of us Christians, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent” (John 6:29), and no Christian calls the Word of God a lie.

In effect, your thoughts there call a lie this writing of Paul, “by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, [it is] the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are His work” (Ephesians 2:8-10), and no Christian calls the Word of God a lie.

In effect, your thoughts there call a lie this writing of the Apostle Peter, “God, who knows the heart, testified to them giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He also did to us; and He made no distinction between us and them, cleansing their hearts by faith” (Acts 15:8-9), and no Christian calls the Word of God a lie.

Clearly, Lord Jesus’ words in John 6:29 state for us believers to believe in Jesus whom the Father has sent is exclusively by/of/through God.

In effect, your thoughts there call a lie this saying of the Christ of us Christians, “he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God” (John 3:21), and no Christian calls the Word of God a lie.

In effect, your thoughts there call a lie this writing of Paul, “being filled with the fruit of righteousness that [is] by Jesus Christ, to the glory and praise of God” (Philippians 1:11), and no Christian calls the Word of God a lie.

Clearly, Lord Jesus’ words in John 3:21 state fruit in we believers is exclusively by/of/through God.

In effect, your thoughts there call a lie this saying of the Christ of us Christians, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Do not be amazed that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit” (John 3:5-8), and no Christian calls the Word of God a lie.

In effect, your thoughts there call a lie this writing of Peter, “Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead” (1 Peter 1:3), and no Christian calls the Word of God a lie.

God is awesome for Jesus’ words in John 3:5-8 state we believers being born again is exclusively by/of/through God

In effect, your thoughts there call a lie this saying of the Christ of us Christians, “I praise You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and intelligent and have revealed them to babes” (Matthew 11:25), and no Christian calls the Word of God a lie.

In effect, your thoughts there call a lie this saying of the Apostles and Elders, “Well then, God has granted to the Gentiles also the repentance that leads to life” (Acts 11:18), and no Christian calls the Word of God a lie.

All glory and honor to Jesus Christ whose words in Matthew 11:25 state that God exclusively causes man to think differently after an encounter with God (repent means to think differently afterward)

In effect, your thoughts there call a lie this saying of the Christ of us Christians, “A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another, even as I have loved you, that you also love one another” (John 13:34), and no Christian calls the Word of God a lie.

In effect, your thoughts there call a lie this writing of the Apostle John, “Beloved, let us love one another, for love is from God; and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God” (1 John 4:7, see the phrase “love is from God” meaning God is the source of true love), and no Christian calls the Word of God a lie.

In effect, your thoughts there call a lie this writing of John, “God is Love, and the one who abides in Love abides in God, and God abides in him” (1 John 4:16, see the phrase “one who abides in Love” is equivocated with “one who abides” “in God” which extends from God’s exclusivity with “God is Love”), and no Christian calls the Word of God a lie.

So, clearly, the Word of God in John 13:34 states that the love, true love (John 3:33), the very righteous love, the Godly love within us children of God, this love is exclusively by/of/through God.

It is antichrist to call the Word of God a lie because the Word of God clearly declares man does not have free-will choosing ability towards God.

And here we have the Truth (John 14:6), the love of Christ controls us believers (2 Corinthians 5:14)!

 

[Kermos]

Hey All,
Greetings Kermos. Interesting take on the subject. Adam blamed Eve as well.

Genesis 3:12 And the man said, The woman whom thou gavest to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I did eat.

Look at the end of the verse, "I did eat." Eve didn't force Adam to eat the fruit. He knew what it was. He was with her when she ate it. We know this because of verse 6.

Genesis 3:6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.

See what it says, " . . . Her husband with her. "
Yes Adam blames Eve for his sin. But remember, he had knowledge of good and evil at the point he makes his excuse to God. Is Adam being completely honest? Eve handed him the fruit. If you are a diabetic, and I give you candy you know you cannot eat. Where does my responsibility end and your's begin if you eat the candy? I am not forcing it down your throat. And you know you are not supposed to eat candy. You could say no. If you eat it, did I make you? Could you say that and be entirely honest? No.

Adam ate for the same reason Eve did. The fruit good for food, pleasing to the eye, and desired to make one wise. Adam's sin is his own. If you want to say he was tempted, sure OK. But he did the eating.

I heard an interesting take on this. Now it is not Scriptural, and just speculation. I cannot emphasize that enough. But the thought goes that Adam ate the fruit out of his love for Eve. He didn't want to be alone again. Again not Scriptural, just an interesting speculation.
Keep walking everybody. May God bless,
Taz

Salutations Josef,

Adam was accountable for Adam's disobedience to God. Adam certainly did the work of eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil (Genesis 3:6). To avoid confusion, I made no other attribution about Adam's accountability in this post to which you appear to be responding. Also, it is clear that Adam blaming Eve did not atone for Adam's disobedience towards God, and the "blaming" shows fleshly selfish fear not free-will.

Adam's work of eating, that disobedient action by Adam, is specifically attributed to "Because you have listened to the voice of your wife, and have eaten from the tree about which I commanded you, saying, 'You shall not eat from it'" (Genesis 3:17) as the causative factor; furthermore, Genesis 3:6 mentions "desirable" (defined as an unsatisfied state of being, a.k.a. lust), not "will"; moreover, of crucial import, we do not find "choice" nor "will" mentioned anywhere in the creation account (Genesis 1-3), not in Genesis 3:6, not in Genesis 3:17-19.

Man's "Will" In Scripture Related To The Creation Account​

Despite the Creation account in Genesis 1-3 being silent about man's "will", there exists Apostolic testimony on the matter of man's "will" with regard to the creation account.

Adam did not exercise willpower to disobey God's command not to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil (Genesis 2:16-17) for Paul wrote "the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly" (Romans 8:20, NASB); therefore, Adam did not make a choice, not a willing choice, to eat.

A "choice" by Adam is explicitly excluded by using scripture with scripture referencing, in fact, "the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly" (Romans 8:20, KJV), so Adam acted not willingly but rather acted subject to vanity in his eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

"Not willingly" indicates "not choice".

Some people may claim that Paul was referring to a timeframe exclusively after what they call "the fall" (after Adam ate of the tree [Genesis 3:6]), but the continuity of the passage of Romans 8:20-22 must be taken as a whole.

Paul left no room for disputing to the timeframe for which "not willingly" applies, for Paul also wrote "we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now" (Romans 8:22), and the phrase "until now" is the timeframe's most recent limiting factor which means that all times prior to "now" are included, so "the whole creation" includes the moment after God breathed into Adam's nostrils the breath of life (Genesis 2:7) until Adam ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil (Genesis 3:6); therefore, we can be certain that Paul includes the timeframe that Adam ate of the tree in the travailing/groaning because Paul wrote of all of this in the same passage, i.e. Romans 8:20-22.

The Apostle Paul's writing "the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now" (Romans 8:20-22).

Paul includes the "not willingly" (Romans 8:20-22) to apply to the time that Adam ate of the tree (Genesis 3:6).

 

[gordon777]

You open your post there with your closely held thoughts of "A lot of talk there and all complete lies" as the very next post to this post to you containing the Truth (John 14:6), so you just proved out that you call the Word of God a lie. We see that the faith mentioned by Paul in Galatians 3:1-9 is the work of God and not of man's control as is born out of the Word of God shown in the next few paragraphs.

In effect, your thoughts there call a lie this saying of the Christ of us Christians,
“you did not choose Me, but I chose you” (John 15:16), and no Christian calls the Word of God a lie.

No Scripture states man has a free-will to choose Jesus, and these quotes of the Word of God reveals your self-willed (2 Peter 2:9-10) deceptive use of Scripture, and "free-will" absent from every Scripture you mentioned.

All are called by the gospel, chosen to believe in the righteousness of Christ being risen from the dead, those who believe in righteousness go to God, those who are contentious do not.

Really very simple. God recognises the changeableness of man, God had to change with man from the law in ordinances, to the law in the heart.


John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

John 20:31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.


Romans 2:4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?
5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
11 For there is no respect of persons with God.


Galatians 1:6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:

2 Thessalonians 2:14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[Josef]

Hey All,
Kermos, are you saying that Eve's tempting was the cause of Adam's sin? Actually nowhere in the Genesis 3 account does it state that Eve tempted Adam. She handed him the fruit. Verse 12 tells us that Adam received the fruit from his wife, and then ate from the tree. (It is assumed this was the temptation of Eve. I think that's a huge leap to get there.) Was the sin taking the fruit from his wife, or not listening to God and consuming it? Sure, his wife was a contributing factor. Nobody is saying otherwise. Satan is a contributing factor in my sin. But I am responsible for my actions. Likewise, Adam was responsible for his actions. That is why he was punished. God does not punish the innocent. Remember Enoch?

Genesis 5:22-24 And Enoch walked with God after he begat Methuselah three hundred years, and begat sons and daughters:
And all the days of Enoch were three hundred sixty and five years:
And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him.

Enoch's walk with God was good enough that he was taken before he died. (What did he do to achieve this?)

"A "choice" by Adam is explicitly excluded by using scripture with scripture referencing, in fact, "the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly" (Romans 8:20, KJV), so Adam acted not willingly but rather acted subject to vanity in his eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil."

"Not willingly" indicates "not choice".
Quote from Kermos

Romans 8 is probably one of the most loved chapters in all the Bible. Because it starts and ends talking about the assurance and security of the believer. Verse 1 tells us there is no condemnation on believers. (assurance) Verse 39 states nothing can separate us from the love of God. (security) (Who wouldn't love that?)
Verses 1-17 tell us that we as believers have received the Holy Spirit. and we are to live by the Spirit rather than the flesh. Verse 18 continues to address believers hence the plural pronoun "us."
All of theses verses are addressing all believers. To say that singular noun "creature" in verses 20-21 suddenly addresses just one man, Adam, is not grammatical context. Because verse 21 tells us that the creature shall be delivered from bondage and corruption. This cannot be Adam. Everyone who believes that Jesus died for their sins has been delivered from bondage and corruption spiritually. So the creature here cannot be just Adam.
"Creature" is a singular noun entity within the total creation. Mankind for example would be a creature within creation. So would believers. To be fair, if you take just the word, Adam is a creature within creation. But we have to take out of context to make Adam fit.
"Creation" is a plural noun which means all that was created. The whole universe or all believers would be examples. Adam would not fit as he was a singular creature.
What is the single entity within the entire creation that fits what Paul wrote? It has to be an entity that fits " . . . delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God"
Answer: The body of believers; to which this whole chapter is addressed. Believers, as a group, would be the smallest entity (creature) within creation to which creature can apply.

So, I do not see Romans 8:20 supporting your theory.
I am not going to do this to every Scripture reference you have given. If I find one reference taken out of context, I assume there are more.

I look at every Scripture reference I give. If I am not sure it applies, I will not use it. I owe that effort to the reader. Well enough for now. Keep walking everybody.
May God bless,
Taz

 

[Kermos]

Hey All,
Kermos, are you saying that Eve's tempting was the cause of Adam's sin? Actually nowhere in the Genesis 3 account does it state that Eve tempted Adam. She handed him the fruit. Verse 12 tells us that Adam received the fruit from his wife, and then ate from the tree. (It is assumed this was the temptation of Eve. I think that's a huge leap to get there.) Was the sin taking the fruit from his wife, or not listening to God and consuming it? Sure, his wife was a contributing factor. Nobody is saying otherwise. Satan is a contributing factor in my sin. But I am responsible for my actions. Likewise, Adam was responsible for his actions. That is why he was punished. God does not punish the innocent. Remember Enoch?

Genesis 5:22-24 And Enoch walked with God after he begat Methuselah three hundred years, and begat sons and daughters:
And all the days of Enoch were three hundred sixty and five years:
And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him.

Enoch's walk with God was good enough that he was taken before he died. (What did he do to achieve this?)

"A "choice" by Adam is explicitly excluded by using scripture with scripture referencing, in fact, "the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly" (Romans 8:20, KJV), so Adam acted not willingly but rather acted subject to vanity in his eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil."

"Not willingly" indicates "not choice".
Quote from Kermos

Romans 8 is probably one of the most loved chapters in all the Bible. Because it starts and ends talking about the assurance and security of the believer. Verse 1 tells us there is no condemnation on believers. (assurance) Verse 39 states nothing can separate us from the love of God. (security) (Who wouldn't love that?)
Verses 1-17 tell us that we as believers have received the Holy Spirit. and we are to live by the Spirit rather than the flesh. Verse 18 continues to address believers hence the plural pronoun "us."
All of theses verses are addressing all believers. To say that singular noun "creature" in verses 20-21 suddenly addresses just one man, Adam, is not grammatical context. Because verse 21 tells us that the creature shall be delivered from bondage and corruption. This cannot be Adam. Everyone who believes that Jesus died for their sins has been delivered from bondage and corruption spiritually. So the creature here cannot be just Adam.
"Creature" is a singular noun entity within the total creation. Mankind for example would be a creature within creation. So would believers. To be fair, if you take just the word, Adam is a creature within creation. But we have to take out of context to make Adam fit.
"Creation" is a plural noun which means all that was created. The whole universe or all believers would be examples. Adam would not fit as he was a singular creature.
What is the single entity within the entire creation that fits what Paul wrote? It has to be an entity that fits " . . . delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God"
Answer: The body of believers; to which this whole chapter is addressed. Believers, as a group, would be the smallest entity (creature) within creation to which creature can apply.

So, I do not see Romans 8:20 supporting your theory.
I am not going to do this to every Scripture reference you have given. If I find one reference taken out of context, I assume there are more.

I look at every Scripture reference I give. If I am not sure it applies, I will not use it. I owe that effort to the reader. Well enough for now. Keep walking everybody.
May God bless,
Taz

Hello Josef,

Adam moved away from God when Adam ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, not Adam moving toward God, but, truly, Adam moved away from God, so Adam fails as an example of free-will choosing God.

Please pay attention to this response, Josef, because God had me proclaim "the cause of Adam's sin" (this quote is from your opening sentence) according to the Word of God in the previous response.

Would you please reply to posts instead of making a "post reply" at the bottom of the page? By replying, the correspondence maintains proper linkage thus reducing the need for back-links like this post that I suspect you just replied.

The Word of God very specifically declares Adam was accountable for Adam's sin/disobedience to God, after all, Adam certainly did the work of eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil (Genesis 3:6). To avoid confusion, I made no other attribution about Adam's accountability in this post to which you responded. Also, it is clear that Adam blaming Eve did not atone for Adam's disobedience towards God, and the "blaming" shows fleshly selfish fear not free-will.

Adam's work of eating, that sinfully disobedient action by Adam, is specifically attributed to "Because you have listened to the voice of your wife, and have eaten from the tree about which I commanded you, saying, 'You shall not eat from it'" (Genesis 3:17), so the precise cause of Adam's sin of eating of the tree forbidden as food is that Adam "listened to the voice of" Eve - thus says the Word of God!

The second question in your post contains two premises, but you failed to include the Word of God proclaimed to you that the cause of Adam's sin of eating of the tree forbidden as food was that Adam "listened to the voice of" Eve (Genesis 3:17), so this is a reason I requested that you read this post carefully.

In Romans 8, Paul switches context and topics, so an outside topic does not negate an inside topic.

Adam is inextricably included as part of "creation" (or "creature" in the KJV which really should be "creation") in Romans 8:20-22. Adam and Seth and David and Elijah and Peter and Paul are all part of "creation", so this dispenses with your unsupported "verses 20-21 suddenly addresses just one man". I proclaimed that Paul wrote "until now" by which Paul included Paul's own time.

Let's look at the passage in whole:

(20) For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope (21) that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God (22) for we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now.
(Romans 8:20-22)
​

Per the Greek language, all 3 occurrences of the word "creation" In this passage are singular, not plural, so your grammatical analysis of Romans 8:20-22 is flawed.

You wrote "Because verse 21 tells us that the creature shall be delivered from bondage and corruption. This cannot be Adam", so I ask you, have you not heard of the new heavens and new earth and the inhabitants thereof? Moreover, your assertion fails to extract Adam out of "creation" in verse 20, and your assertion fails to extract Adam out of "the whole creation" in verse 22.

In verse 21, the word is "creation", not "creature", in fact, Paul just wrote "creation" without the adjective "whole" in verse 21.

In contrast, Paul declared "the whole creation" in verse 22, and Paul includes timeframe boundaries covering "not willingly" in Romans 8:20-22 as shown in the following:

• See "until now" (Romans 8:22) indicates all time prior to the Apostle Paul for he wrote "the whole creation" (Romans 8:22), as in "the whole creation" "until now".
• See the serpent was in the garden tempting Eve (Genesis 3:1-5) before Adam ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil (Genesis 3:6).
• See "subjected to futility" (Romans 8:20) as the serpent's futility of lying to Eve with "You surely will not die" (Genesis 3:4) - before Adam or Eve ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil (Genesis 3:6), yet Adam and Eve died (Genesis 5:5, Genesis 7:21 none of mankind, besides the 8 [Genesis 7:7 and 1 Peter 3:20], survived the flood, so Eve had to be dead).
• See "not willingly" (Romans 8:20) applies to Adam eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil (Genesis 3:6) for the Word of God specifically attributed the cause of Adam eating of the tree as "Because you have listened to the voice of your wife, and have eaten from the tree about which I commanded you, saying, 'You shall not eat from it'" (Genesis 3:17), so here God reveals for Adam the cause (listen to wife) and the effect (eat of tree); therefore, eating of the tree was "not willingly" (Romans 8:20).

Paul includes the "not willingly" (Romans 8:20-22) to apply to Adam because Paul included the time that Adam ate of the tree (Genesis 3:6), so the Apostle Paul declares that Adam not willingly ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

No Scripture states Adam was imparted a free-will, so no man thereafter was imparted free will, either.

 

[TonyChanYT]

NO SCRIPTURE STATES THAT MAN HAS A FREE-WILL.

Exodus 35:29 All the Israelite men and women who were willing brought to the LORD freewill offerings for all the work the LORD through Moses had commanded them to do.

I know that I have my own freewill. I just don't know how to define the term operationally.

 

[Kermos]

All are called by the gospel, chosen to believe in the righteousness of Christ being risen from the dead, those who believe in righteousness go to God, those who are contentious do not.

Really very simple. God recognises the changeableness of man, God had to change with man from the law in ordinances, to the law in the heart.


John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

John 20:31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.


Romans 2:4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?
5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
11 For there is no respect of persons with God.


Galatians 1:6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:

2 Thessalonians 2:14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

You wrote "God had to change with man from the law in ordinances, to the law in the heart" (the word of gordon777) which is a flat out contradiction of the Word of God "I, YHWH, do not change" (The Word of God, Malachi 3:6).

Behold, God changes man, not man changing God, but truly God changing man according to God's Plan "I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh" " (Ezekiel 36:26).

You wrote "All are called by the gospel, chosen to believe in the righteousness of Christ" (the word of gordon777) with your sentence construction in such a way that you convey "all are called" and "all are chosen", so you have "called" and "chosen" being equalities; however, the Word of God distinguishes difference between "called" and "chosen" with Lord Jesus Christ's magnificent saying of "many are called but few are chose" (Matthew 22:14), and Christians do not practice the lawlessness (Matthew 7:21-23) of calling the Word of God a lie, and, in effect you call the Word of God a lie - just like you did as shown in this post.

In fact, you just now mentioned "chosen", and this post to which you just replied proclaims about "chosen" that the Lord God Almighty exclusively chooses persons unto salvation and sanctification with “you did not choose Me, but I chose you” (John 15:16), and no Christian calls the Word of God a lie.

In effect, you declared the Word of God is not the Gospel of Christ!

The Gospel is the Power of God (Romans 1:16), and the Power of God is Christ Himself (1 Corinthians 1:24). The Word of God is clear that Christ is the center of the Gospel, but you make man to be center, even the power, of the gospel. In effect, you switch Jesus out for yourself.

In 2 Peter 2:3-6, the self-willed people are condemned by God. Self-willed people includes free-willian philosophers.

Praise Jesus the Lord, the love of Christ controls us Christians (2 Corinthians 5:14)!!!

 

[Kermos]

Exodus 35:29 All the Israelite men and women who were willing brought to the LORD freewill offerings for all the work the LORD through Moses had commanded them to do.

I know that I have my own freewill. I just don't know how to define the term operationally.

The Meaning Of The Words "Freewill Offering" As Used In The Old Testament

First, "freewill offering" is in the Old Testament, so this is not the New Testament. There are differences.

Second, as God's chosen people, the Israelites had instruction about the "freewill offering" in the Old Covenant.

Third, the definition behind "freewill offering" must be examined according the source word נְדָבָ֖ה in the Hebrew of the Old Testament. This word נְדָבָ֖ה (nedabah) has a Strong's number of 5071.

DEFINITION: from H5068; properly (abstractly) spontaneity, or (adjectively) spontaneous; also (concretely) a spontaneous or (by inference, in plural) abundant gift:-free(-will) offering, freely, plentiful, voluntary(-ily, offering), willing(-ly), offering) (this Strong's defintion obtained from BlueLetterBible.org 5071).
​

Fourth, the definition behind "freewill offering" must be examined according the source word αφαίρεμα in the Greek of the Old Testament in the Septuagint. This word αφαίρεμα does not appear in the New Testament, so it does not have a Strong's number, but it has been assigned a number of "850.4" in the Apostolic Bible Polyglot.

DEFINITION: That which is cut off as a choice part; a choice portion; a cut-away portion.
​

Fifth, it is written in the Old Testament "The Israelites, all the men and women, whose heart moved them to bring [material] for all the work, which YHWH had commanded through Moses to be done, brought a freewill offering to YHWH" (Exodus 35:29).

AND there is a Hebrew word for "choose", but it is not here, so it does not state "who chose to bring", yet it does state "whose heart moved them to bring"

AND this offering is for material for the work as opposed to choosing toward God

AND this is the first occurrence of "freewill offering" in the NASB

AND the people brought abundant offerings for it is written "They received from Moses all the contributions which the sons of Israel had brought to perform the work in the construction of the sanctuary. And they still [continued] bringing to him freewill offerings every morning. And all the skillful men who were performing all the work of the sanctuary came, each from the work which he was performing, and they said to Moses, 'The people are bringing much more than enough for the construction work which the LORD commanded [us] to perform.' So Moses issued a command, and a proclamation was circulated throughout the camp, saying, 'Let no man or woman any longer perform work for the contributions of the sanctuary.' Thus the people were restrained from bringing [any more]" (Exodus 36:3-6)

SO it is clear that the synonyms נְדָבָ֖ה (nedabah) in Hebrew and αφαίρεμα in Greek denote a heartfelt gratuitous offering.
​

Sixth, based upon Biblical usage neither of these words translate to "freewill" as in "freewill choice toward God":

• נְדָבָ֖ה (nedabah) in Hebrew
• αφαίρεμα in Greek

Seventh, based upon definitions, neither of these words translate to "freewill" as in "freewill choice toward God":

• נְדָבָ֖ה (nedabah) in Hebrew
• αφαίρεμα in Greek

Eighth, "freewill" is an inappropriate translation of נְדָבָ֖ה (nedabah) in Hebrew.

Nineth, based upon both Scriptural usage and definitions, both of these words translate to spontaneous heartfelt gratuitous premier portion offering:

• נְדָבָ֖ה (nedabah) in Hebrew
• αφαίρεμα in Greek

Jesus and the Apostles quoted out of the Septuagint as recorded in the New Testament.

The Septuagint uses the word αφαίρεμα which translates to "the choice portion" which references an offering.

The Brenton Septuagint Translation version of Exodus 35:29 reads as "And every man and woman whose mind inclined them to come in and do all the works as many as the Lord appointed them to do by Moses- they the children of Israel brought an offering to the Lord".

The Brenton Septuagint Translation version contains "an offering" with no mention of "freewill".

NO SCRIPTURE STATES THAT MAN HAS A FREE-WILL.

If you think you have a free-will, then you have a self-will (2 Peter 2:9-10), just as the original post details.

See "whose heart moved them to bring" in Exodus 35:29, and see God moves a person's heart in "the Lord opened her heart to respond to the things spoken by Paul" (Acts 16:14).

 

[TonyChanYT]

First, "freewill offering" is in the Old Testament, so this is not the New Testament. There are differences.

Sure. Did people in the OT have freewill?

 

[donadams]

Free will is required to sin!

We must know it’s wrong and against the will of God or the commandments and freely choose it anyway!

If you are forced to sin it ain’t sin!

 

[Kermos]

Sure. Did people in the OT have freewill?

Judging from your response, it sounds like you did not read the original post which contains the answer to that very question.

Nonetheless, here is some more that makes it Scripturally clear about whether people have a free will or not.

Let's examine the free-willian dearly held faith that "my free-will is uncontrolled by God" as compared to linguistics, logic, and Scripture in Truth (John 14:6).
Free-willians abstract (compartmentalize) at two different levels when free-willians think "my free-will is uncontrolled by God".

God is a Being.

You are a being.

A "will" is not a being.

A "will" is part of a being, and a "will" does not exist without a being.

Let's look at free-willian's dearly held belief that "my free-will is uncontrolled by God" from a related perspective, "this being's free-will is uncontrolled by that Being".

Free-willian foundation is the relationship that a "will" is "free" from a "being", and the relationship succeeds logically and linguistically only by including that a "will" is "free" from every "being"; therefore, that "will" must be free from the "Being" (God) as well as that "will" free from the "being" (the free-willian) as well as that "will" free from every other "being", yet a "will" must be part of a "being" resulting in a controlling relationship between the "being" and the being's "will", so the concept of a "will" free from a "being" is illogical.

The free-willian's level of abstraction fails because free-willians have grouped "will" at the same level as the group of "beings", so free-willians are comparing unrelated things, that is, a "will" and a "being"; in other words, free-willian's faulty premise results in a sinfully false conclusion.

The word "free" means "a something detached from an other something", but free-willians redefine "free" to mean "a something detached from that something's self"; therefore, free-willian's linguistics are illegal.

No Scripture states that God imparted man a free-will, in fact, the single occurrence of free-will in the New Testament is where the Apostle Paul refers to free-will as illusory (Philemon 1:14).

Now, a free-willian's "will" is not free from all beings because the free-willian's "will" is part of himself or herself. See the word "self" in the words "himself" and "herself", and "self" is key because by definition free-willians have a self-will (2 Peter 2:9-10) per the free-willian's own proclamation that the free-willian "will" is uncontrolled by God, and, here, in Scripture, we find that free-willians are out of accord with Apostolic testimony.

In Truth (John 14:6), we Christian's have a "will" controlled by the Christ of us Christians for it is written "it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure" (Philippians 2:13).

 

[TonyChanYT]

Judging from your response, it sounds like you did not read the original post which contains the answer to that very question.

Right. I am slow. Did people in the OT have freewill?

 

[Kermos]

Right. I am slow. Did people in the OT have freewill?

Again, the answer is in the original post, and the answer is in the post to which you replied.

And for your edification here is another thread which starts off with the Word of God in Genesis chapters 1 through 5 that explains the answer Was Adam imparted free will from the beginning of Creation? (on this site).

 

[TonyChanYT]

Again, the answer is in the original post, and the answer is in the post to which you replied.

Right and right again. I am really really slow. Can you be so gracious as to answer the following in your next reply:
Did people in the OT have freewill?

 

[Josef]

Hey All,
Did anybody force Adam to eat the fruit? God told Adam not to eat it. So it couldn't be God. Let's, for argument's sake, say Eve tempted Adam. But did she force Adam? Nowhere in the account does it say Eve forced Adam. Plus Adam received an equal share of the penalty.
So if God didn't force Adam, and Eve didn't force Adam, what are we left with? Keep walking everybody. May God bless,
Taz