Pegasus
Member
Should we consider the difference between outright rejection (someone fully informed) and ignorance? Someone might hear the gospel on a street corner and wave it off as 'lunacy' but at a different setting be convicted.
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THE UNFORGIVEN SIN
- Thread starter Eugene
- Start date
Should we consider the difference between outright rejection (someone fully informed) and ignorance? Someone might hear the gospel on a street corner and wave it off as 'lunacy' but at a different setting be convicted.
Nathan
Member
How can you reject something that you are not informed about?
I think if we were to put an 'amount' of belief on someone, then we have just made a pre-requisite for salvation. It would be saying, "You can have salvation, and not be guilty of the unpardonable sin, if you believe X amount".
So then you have to say that 'whosoever' believes will be saved - meaning you can only reject something you have known.
Truth be told, I think Jesus was showing compassion toward the religious leaders when He made the statement. Most likely the way He asked they be forgiven when He hung on the Cross, and how Steven also asked God to not hold, the people who stoned him, sin against them.
I think Jesus was giving them the 'faith' to believe in Him after the fact, if in the future they did believe He was the Christ, letting them know that ALL sin will be forgiven - except that of the blasphemy of the Spirit. I believe this because He followed the first with the second. First an admonition, then a word of Grace.
Mat 12:32
And whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.
They were speaking against the Spirit, but they were directing it toward Jesus. I suppose this is where you could claim "ignorance", but there again, can someone be ignorant to blaspheme the Spirit - in order to blaspheme someone, you have to know them - or else you do not know what you say is true or false.
And so did you give up driving when you found yourself accidentally speeding?
Nathan, you admit speeding is willful sin, although you don't want to negate its effect by eliminating a source, and saying all of us sin. I sounds as if you'd rather ride around in the comfort of a car and go to a Christless eternity. If you give up driving I doubt you'll have trouble obeying God's law of obeying those who He put into power over us as far as going too fast any longer. How are you going to win Christ?
You say above that "No one is saying that believers do not sin," and want me to go back to the beginning of 1st John, but when Jesus died for us, it is Him judged. When we believe on Him, it is no longer us being judged because our Father sees us in Jesus; the very source of our righteousness, and thus the scripture written by His apostle in 1Jn 5:18, We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not !!!!!
Thanks
Nathan, I'm glad to hear that because 1Jn 2:2 tells us: And He (Jesus, not us) is the propitiation for our sins . .
And then to know the security we have in Jesus' finished sacrifice in our behalf, we are told how we may know it.
1Jn 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. (It doesn’t say we are saved because we keep Jesus’ commandments.)
1Jn 2:4 He that saith, I know Him, and keepeth not His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
1Jn 2:12 I write unto you, little children (Believers), because your sins are forgiven you for His name's sake.
Now back to the question. Why has Paul given up, or cast off
Php 3:8 Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ, (And we’re to do the same thing according to 1 Cor 11:1, or suffer the consequences Rom 2:16?).
Are you ready now to give up your car source of willful sin to win Christ?
Moses was a believer, and the others weren't? Is there scripture showing that unbelievers had their name written in God's book of life from the foundation of the world?
Rev 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him (the beast), whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
Our promise is that of Rev 3:5 He that overcometh (Believes on Jesus as our Savior), the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.
And us that believe on Jesus have been given to given to Him by our Father.
Joh 6:37 All that the Father giveth Me shall come to Me; and him that cometh to Me I will in no wise cast out.
Jesus won't erase your name from the book of life even if you continue your propensity of willful sinning. I will say that there can be consequence to your not yielding to your conscience. How are you going to WIN CHRIST?
Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
Rom 1:19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
Rom 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
We do read in Rom 10:14 . . . how shall they hear without a preacher?
Somehow I think God sends someone at exactly the right time as He did with Phillip going to the man of Ethiopia in Acts 8:26-39. God's word does not come back void, but accomplishes that which it was sent.
Isa 55:11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.
Now there are times God's word is given as a testimony against some to be used at judgment such as we read in Mar 6:11 And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear you, when ye depart thence, shake off the dust under your feet for a testimony against them. Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city. (Of course these are not thinking of how to win Christ).
Nathan
Member
Hold up the train here.Nathan, you admit speeding is willful sin, although you don't want to negate its effect by eliminating a source, and saying all of us sin. I sounds as if you'd rather ride around in the comfort of a car and go to a Christless eternity. If you give up driving I doubt you'll have trouble obeying God's law of obeying those who He put into power over us as far as going too fast any longer. How are you going to win Christ?
You say above that "No one is saying that believers do not sin," and want me to go back to the beginning of 1st John, but when Jesus died for us, it is Him judged. When we believe on Him, it is no longer us being judged because our Father sees us in Jesus; the very source of our righteousness, and thus the scripture written by His apostle in 1Jn 5:18, We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not !!!!!
Thanks
. I'm quite confused as to your first paragraph, but I feel like a train almost ran over me. Are you saying that you don't sin?
I think that we need to see context, and I'll dive into it deeper tomorrow, but suffice to say John was NOT saying believers do not sin. He was saying believers do not stay in sin. Big difference.
1 John 1
5 This is the message we have heard from him and proclaim to you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.
6 If we say we have fellowship with him while we walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth.
7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin.
8 If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
10 If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
John is quite clear that there are two places to walk - darkness and light. When we walk in darkness(a place of sin) we are not practicing the truth, when we walk in the light(a place of righteousness), we do practice the truth - and the blood of Christ cleanses us from sin.
We have sin. It's there, it happens, and it's precisely why we need to walk in the light with Christ.
Nathan
Member
It's ironic you ask the last question you did. I was out fishing tonight and was contemplating things. The thought came to my head that if I needed to give up something for the only reason that He wanted me to, would I.
Would I be as resolute as Job was, is what I was thinking. It was an interesting time of thought for sure.
We should be willing to give our very life for the cause of Christ. An inanimate object would by far be 'easier' to give up.
If my car was that much of a stumbling block to myself, and others, you bet I would. Why not?
As I sat there drifting along tonight, I thought, how short this 'time' is on earth. It's pathetically short. There is something more than what we are seeing to this life. It's not about physical things, physical sin, it's a matter of the heart.
That's why we read in Hebrews that we are to guard our heart - lest there be an unbelieving one come up and lead us away.
My car is worthless - you want it?
Nathan
Member
The Israelites most definitely had there names written in the book, just like Moses, or else it would have been pointless for God to say He was going to blot their names out.
They had been 'saved'.
Jude 1:5 (ESV)
Now I want to remind you, although you once fully knew it, that Jesus, who saved a people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed those who did not believe.
Your correct, the one who overcomes will not be blotted out of the book. We can hold on to that by faith because God declared it. The end has not yet come, so we are still 'overcoming'. We have overcome in our faith, but it is only in our faith we overcome.
For whatever reason, God is still working on us here - in this time period.
1 Peter 1
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to his great mercy, he has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
4 to an inheritance that is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading, kept in heaven for you,
5 who by God's power are being guarded through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
6 In this you rejoice, though now for a little while, if necessary, you have been grieved by various trials,
7 so that the tested genuineness of your faith-more precious than gold that perishes though it is tested by fire-may be found to result in praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ.
8 Though you have not seen him, you love him. Though you do not now see him, you believe in him and rejoice with joy that is inexpressible and filled with glory,
9 obtaining the outcome of your faith, the salvation of your souls.
What do you mean by, "how am I going to win Christ"? I don't want to assume anything.
Nathan
Member
So do you agree, or disagree, that people who reject Christ are the ones who know of Him?
It was hard to know what your answer was. It seems that you were saying that people do know, and that's how they can reject Him. Is that wrong?
I'm saying that the nature of Christ does not sin, and when God sees the blood of Jesus, He sees only the incorruptible seed we're born of.Hold up the train here.
Are you saying that you don't sin?
Is it wrong for God to have had John written comparing our justification by God bringing us out of what were? And Isn’t that basically God’s message to us that are saved?
1Jn 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
Is this akin to For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; in your eyes? Rom 3:23.
Is this where we remain and never move on to 1Jn 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
Can’t we believe God with scripture such as this, and 1Jn 5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.
Peter describes our new life this way in 1Pe 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
I’m not sure where the problem rests in your theology that would deny the above scriptures, but have you considered that in Christ we have His new nature, and yet retain Adam’s nature; the old man which needs be overcome to realize deliverance and peace from the struggle Paul experienced in Romans Chapter Seven?
I've got one that is nearing five years old and only have near eight thousand miles on it; one thousand was put on it in the first week when breaking it in. Insurance alone will one day soon cost more that the car is worth. I don't need a second one.My car is worthless - you want it?
Where does it say that God will blot out any name written in the book of life? To me He says just the opposite in Rev 3:5. He that overcometh (How is this done?), the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.
1Jn 5:5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?
1Jn 5:11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life (Conditional on our faithfulness?), and this life is in his Son.
What I an saying is that none at the great white throne will have an excuse when they stand before our Judge Jesus.
Romans begins after a bit with judgment against the immoral, the moral, and the religious.
Rom 1:18 is especially addressing the immoral man, and God also uses things such as nature to teach as we read in 1Co 11:14 Doth not even nature itself teach you . . .
Rom 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
Rom 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
God’s judgment against mankind is concluded with Rom 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
1Co 9:24 Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain.What do you mean by, "how am I going to win Christ"? I don't want to assume anything.
Php 3:8 Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ, (Now Paul here is as saved as he can be, but what is he wanting?)
Php 3:14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.
I like the following excerpt written by Brother Copley, and that is “The cross was the price of our salvation, which we experience by faith; but suffering is the cost of the throne. "If we suffer with Him, we shall also reign with Him; if we deny Him (our willingness to suffer), He will also deny us" (the right to reign).”
Rom 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
Rom 8:17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; IF SO BE that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
I have written the following pamphlet that may be able to better explain Christian Sufferings and their benefit to us at the following URL link.
Christian Sufferings
http://www.christianforums.net/Fellowship/index.php?threads/christian-sufferings.52898/
Nathan
Member
Your first sentence is totally the way I see it. The passage in John and the one in Romans are related, but only in the fact that it points out sin. John was setting the stage for the rest of his letter, as was Paul, but for different reasons.
Regardless, 1 John 3:9 is NOT saying that believers do not sin, he is saying that believers do not continue in sin. This is where translations can make or break a theology. IF John was saying that a believer does not sin - then we would find that not ever being contradicted in the rest of the NT teachings - but we don't. Quite the opposite really. John even pre-states(1John 1) that when we do sin, when we walk in the light the blood of Christ cleanses us - and if we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins. Here is a more word for word translation of 1 John 3:9;
1Jo 3:9
No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God’s seed abides in him, and he cannot keep on sinning because he has been born of God.
The same can be said about 1 John 5:18. Again, we cannot take one sentence from an entire letter, and believe it will contradict the rest of what is said. I do NOT deny the passages at all(please do not insinuate I do - this is where good conversations go bad). When we walk in the light, the blood of Christ cleanses us from sin. It is not more complicated than that.
That is the very point - the mark of which we are righteous before God - simply abiding/walking in Christ. When we walk in darkness, we lie, do not practice the truth, and we are away from the blood of Christ. There are only two roads to walk down. Two paths. One narrow, one wide. One hard, one easy. So many times we think that faith is just a doorway we walk, through instead of a path we walk on. This kind of thinking is what will make people easy targets for being led astray.
Nathan
Member
Exo 32:30-34
The next day Moses said to the people, “You have sinned a great sin. And now I will go up to the LORD; perhaps I can make atonement for your sin.” So Moses returned to the LORD and said, “Alas, this people has sinned a great sin. They have made for themselves gods of gold. But now, if you will forgive their sin—but if not, please blot me out of your book that you have written.” But the LORD said to Moses, “Whoever has sinned against me, I will blot out of my book. But now go, lead the people to the place about which I have spoken to you; behold, my angel shall go before you. Nevertheless, in the day when I visit, I will visit their sin upon them.”
Well, in Revelation we do see that Christ is stating that He will not blot the ones who overcome. That for sure is a 'good' thing for those who listen, but what does it say for those who do not - who choose not to overcome? Christ did not say He would not blot their names out.
Eternal life is 'conditional' on being in Christ. I really do think, after discussing this over the years, that eternal life is one of the key elements that is misunderstood. I think I will start a thread soon talking about it.
What we do know is that the Children of Israel were an example of us - for us. The things that they went through, and the events surrounding the exodus from Egypt, and the entrance to the promise land, were ALL written down for us. Not just written down, and we can glean some truths from it - God specifically had them write down what happened so we could see a 'picture' of what our life in Christ is.
1Co 10:11
Now these things happened to them as an example, but they were written down for our instruction, on whom the end of the ages has come.
Here is the point. Moses was forgiven his sin, but the people who worshiped the golden calf were not - even after Moses asked God to forgive them. He went before God to 'atone' for their sin, but he could not. Moses is the picture of the 'law' of God. The law of God cannot make us in right standing before God. But faith in God does. The people were faithless, Moses was faithful.
Heb 3:5
Now Moses was faithful in all God's house as a servant, to testify to the things that were to be spoken later,
Here is the picture. The people who 'overcame' went into the promise land, the ones who did not died in the desert. Moses was a picture of the law - that is why he did not enter in. This is the exact same thing we see Jesus telling the Church of Sardis.
"Overcoming" or "conquering" is what we do IN Christ. The opposite of that is to stay in the life of sin, keep desiring sin, keep wanting to go back to the land of bondage(Egypt) - that is where the 'unforgivable' sin(life of continuing - not just a one time sinful act) comes into view.
It is CRUCIAL in understanding that the people of Israel WERE SAVED - a picture of us 'being saved'. Yet later, the ones who simply would not continue in faith, were destroyed. They ALL believed at one point in time - but they did not continue and wanted to go back into bondage in Egypt.
Exo 14:30-31
Thus the LORD saved Israel that day from the hand of the Egyptians, and Israel saw the Egyptians dead on the seashore. Israel saw the great power that the LORD used against the Egyptians, so the people feared the LORD, and they believed in the LORD and in his servant Moses.
Jde 1:5
Now I want to remind you, although you once fully knew it, that Jesus, who saved a people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed those who did not believe.
Nathan
Member
1Co 9:24 Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain.
Php 3:8 Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ, (Now Paul here is as saved as he can be, but what is he wanting?)
Php 3:14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.
I like the following excerpt written by Brother Copley, and that is “The cross was the price of our salvation, which we experience by faith; but suffering is the cost of the throne. "If we suffer with Him, we shall also reign with Him; if we deny Him (our willingness to suffer), He will also deny us" (the right to reign).”
Rom 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
Rom 8:17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; IF SO BE that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
I have written the following pamphlet that may be able to better explain Christian Sufferings and their benefit to us at the following URL link.
Christian Sufferings
http://www.christianforums.net/Fellowship/index.php?threads/christian-sufferings.52898/
Ok, I think I might understand what you were asking a little better. Paul, like I, was pressing on to take hold of that which God has called us to - eternal life with Him. Paul, like I(and You), was 'saved' as he(we) can be. Meaning, Jesus Christ died on the cross, freeing the entire world from the bondage of sin. He(Jesus), saved us(you, me, and Paul) from bondage in sin.
Now, we press on, we journey to, that place(promise land) firm in the faith. One day, we will cross over the river Jordan - we have not reached that point yet. Here in this life, we are in the 'times of testing'.
1Pe 1:3-9
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to his great mercy, he has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to an inheritance that is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading, kept in heaven for you, who by God’s power are being guarded through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. In this you rejoice, though now for a little while, if necessary, you have been grieved by various trials, so that the tested genuineness of your faith—more precious than gold that perishes though it is tested by fire—may be found to result in praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ. Though you have not seen him, you love him. Though you do not now see him, you believe in him and rejoice with joy that is inexpressible and filled with glory, obtaining the outcome of your faith, the salvation of your souls.
During this time of testing, we should not put God to the test - even though we do, over and over, just like the children of Israel did when they were in their time of testing. God's grace is sufficient to cover our sins, but the one sin He cannot cover is that of unbelief. So, like Paul, we should most certainly not be prideful or haughty in our state, nor think that we have already attained that which we are journeying to - testing God by thinking He has to do something because we did something.
Phl 3:8-12
Indeed, I count everything as loss because of the surpassing worth of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord. For his sake I have suffered the loss of all things and count them as rubbish, in order that I may gain Christ and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which comes through faith in Christ, the righteousness from God that depends on faith—that I may know him and the power of his resurrection, and may share his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, that by any means possible I may attain the resurrection from the dead. Not that I have already obtained this or am already perfect, but I press on to make it my own, because Christ Jesus has made me his own.
Paul was CLEAR that he had not yet obtained(come to full completion) of being found in Christ. This is what he pressed on to, and what we should to. Its very prideful to think that we have already come to completion, to think that nothing we do will effect the outcome. Paul never thought this.
Given that this is what is said about the author:
I am an Amillennial, Calvinistic, charismatic, credo-baptistic, complementarian, Christian Hedonist who loves his wife of 44 years,
I'd be careful about what to glean from his website. He doesn't believe in a literal 1,000 year reign of King Jesus, he thinks God chooses who will believe, and he admits to being a "Christian Hedonist". Interesting combination, for sure.
However, the 4th interpretation in his article is the best explanation for "sin unto death".
Here, John is describing God's discipline for rebellious and unfaithful believers. Paul described the range of God's discipline in 1 Cor 11:30 - "That is why many among you are weak and sick, and a number of you have fallen asleep."
We see a progression here: weakness, then sickness, and finally the euphemism for physical death. The Bible gives us a number of examples of God's discipline including physical death; Exodus generation in 1 Cor 10, incestuous man in 1 Cor 5:5, turned over to satan for physical death (destruction of the flesh), Ananias and his wife in Acts 5.
I was stumped for a long time by 1 John 5:16. I finally realized what John was talking about. He was telling believers not to pray for the "sin unto death" towards another believer. That's God's perogative alone. We have no business praying that God would "take out" any believer for what we see as sins worthy of death.
Only God knows the whole story. And his timing is perfect.