Christian Forums

This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!

  • Focus on the Family

    Strengthening families through biblical principles.

    Focus on the Family addresses the use of biblical principles in parenting and marriage to strengthen the family.

  • Guest, Join Papa Zoom today for some uplifting biblical encouragement! --> Daily Verses
  • The Gospel of Jesus Christ

    Heard of "The Gospel"? Want to know more?

    There is salvation in no other, for there is not another name under heaven having been given among men, by which it behooves us to be saved."

THE UNFORGIVEN SIN

2024 Website Hosting Fees

Total amount
$1,048.00
Goal
$1,038.00
Phl 3:8-12
Indeed, I count everything as loss because of the surpassing worth of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord. For his sake I have suffered the loss of all things and count them as rubbish, in order that I may gain Christ and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which comes through faith in Christ, the righteousness from God that depends on faith—that I may know him and the power of his resurrection, and may share his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, that by any means possible I may attain the resurrection from the dead. Not that I have already obtained this or am already perfect, but I press on to make it my own, because Christ Jesus has made me his own.


Paul was CLEAR that he had not yet obtained(come to full completion) of being found in Christ. This is what he pressed on to, and what we should to. Its very prideful to think that we have already come to completion, to think that nothing we do will effect the outcome. Paul never thought this.
Look at the last sentence in scripture. He knew he was Christ's. Christ Jesus has made me his own. There was something in him that he wasn't shaky on, but positive. There is a serious paradox with faith. Since we cannot see God, we have to rely on what he said.

John 20:29 Then Jesus told him, "Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen yet have believed."

I bring up this point because there is a type of faith that loves Christ so much that we walk as he walked(s). We push through until the end and we are crowned with his righteousness. Our walk is his walk.

1 John 2:6 Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus did.

This is why Paul was going through knowing who Jesus is and his sufferings, death and resurrection. To understand the magnitude of Christ's life on earth is life altering. It is Holy Spirit giving.
 
Look at the last sentence in scripture. He knew he was Christ's. Christ Jesus has made me his own. There was something in him that he wasn't shaky on, but positive. There is a serious paradox with faith. Since we cannot see God, we have to rely on what he said.

John 20:29 Then Jesus told him, "Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen yet have believed."

I bring up this point because there is a type of faith that loves Christ so much that we walk as he walked(s). We push through until the end and we are crowned with his righteousness. Our walk is his walk.

1 John 2:6 Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus did.

This is why Paul was going through knowing who Jesus is and his sufferings, death and resurrection. To understand the magnitude of Christ's life on earth is life altering. It is Holy Spirit giving.
Exactly. Good post. I too, like Paul, know that I am Christ's. That does not mean that I do not think that if turned from Him, into darkness, that I would still receive His life.

Even when we get 'out of line', He is faithful to bring us back - discipline us - to teach us to walk as He does. That never is meant to make a person feel like they can go however far they want to - but will never be able to go too far without Him bringing them back.

God did not force us to believe, and He does not force us to stay.
 
I see this statement from time to time. Which text teaches this?
Jhn 6:64
But there are some of you who do not believe.” (For Jesus knew from the beginning who those were who did not believe, and who it was who would betray him.)

Jhn 6:66-67
After this many of his disciples turned back and no longer walked with him. So Jesus said to the Twelve, “Do you want to go away as well?”


He did not make people believe, He did not make them continue, and asked the Disciples if they wanted to leave.

Not only this, but it is prophesied that in these last days MANY will leave the faith.

Mat 24:9
“Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and put you to death, and you will be hated by all nations for my name’s sake. And then many will fall away and betray one another and hate one another. And many false prophets will arise and lead many astray.

1Ti 4:1
Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by devoting themselves to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons,


If God made them stay, they could not fall away or depart.
 
Which text teaches He forces us to stay ?
I think the better question is which text says we can leave union with Christ.

We know that Eph 1:13 teaches that having believed, we are marked in Him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit.

And v.14 says "who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance, for the day of redemption, as God's possession."

These verses make it impossible for those who have been sealed in Him (union with Christ) to be unsealed, or taken out of union with Christ.
 
Nathan said:
"God did not force us to believe, and He does not force us to stay."

I responded: "I see this statement from time to time. Which text teaches this?"
Jhn 6:64
But there are some of you who do not believe.” (For Jesus knew from the beginning who those were who did not believe, and who it was who would betray him.)

This verse speaks of those who "did not believe", not anyone who former believed and quit.

[QUOTE]Jhn 6:66-67
After this many of his disciples turned back and no longer walked with him. So Jesus said to the Twelve, “Do you want to go away as well?”


He did not make people believe, He did not make them continue, and asked the Disciples if they wanted to leave.

Not only this, but it is prophesied that in these last days MANY will leave the faith.[/QUOTE]
How does ceasing to believe mean ceasing to be saved? Of course man is free to rebel. Always HAS been free to do that. And just as free to accept God's free and gracious gift of eternal life.

Mat 24:9
“Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and put you to death, and you will be hated by all nations for my name’s sake. And then many will fall away and betray one another and hate one another. And many false prophets will arise and lead many astray.

1Ti 4:1
Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by devoting themselves to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons,


If God made them stay, they could not fall away or depart.
Staying "in the faith" is not equivalent to "staying saved", as it appears some may assume.
 
THE UNFORGIVEN SIN
A. S. Copley
"For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, and have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, if they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put Him to an open shame." (Hebrews 6:4-6)


This context flows throughout the book of Hebrews, as the author seeks establish the true identity of Jesus Christ, as God's Son, who is the Messiah, and Lord; Creator of all things, who became flesh.

8 But to the Son He says:

“Your throne, O God, is forever and ever;
A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.
9 You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness;
Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You
With the oil of gladness more than Your companions.”
10 And: “You, Lord, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth,
And the heavens are the work of Your hands.
Hebrews 1:8-10

To establish from the scriptures, to these Hebrew Christians, that Jesus Christ is the True Messiah and Lord is crucial to establish the truth within these believers who are vulnerable to the unbelieving Jews who constantly persecuting them, claiming Jesus was a false prophet, and is no more, in an attempt to turn them away from Christ, which once done, there is no more sacrifice for sin, since they have openly put Him to shame by renouncing Him, after receiving the Holy Spirit.


This truth begins in Hebrews 3 -

5 And Moses indeed was faithful in all His house as a servant, for a testimony of those things which would be spoken afterward, 6 but Christ as a Son over His own house, whose house we are if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm to the end.
Hebrews 3:5-6
  • whose house we are if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm to the end.
again

12 Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; 13 but exhort one another daily, while it is called “Today,” lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end, Hebrews 3:12-14

  • Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God
  • For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end

When we get to Chapter 6, we must consider this context of a Christian who under persecution, has renounced Jesus Christ as Lord, and departed from Him.

4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame. Hebrews 6:4-6

  • For it is impossible if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance.


This is the same thing Jesus taught His disciples in the parable of the Sower.

  • Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God;
  • But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away.

Fall away is the same Greek word as departing from.

It is a disconnection from Christ, because of persecution from unbelieving Jews.

In the dark ages it was the persecution of the protestants by the Vatican, in which many were tortured and martyred rather than bow down and confess the pope as Lord. From these millions of martyrs comes the account written called Foxes Book of martyrs.

Now it's the multitudes being slaughtered by Muslims across the globe, who refuse to renounce Jesus Christ as Messiah and Lord, and convert to Islam.


Will the Church in America receive this truth, and stand faithful, when our day comes?



JLB
 
This context flows throughout the book of Hebrews, as the author seeks establish the true identity of Jesus Christ, as God's Son, who is the Messiah, and Lord; Creator of all things, who became flesh.
Thanks for your input and bringing this to the mix. I hope the following excerpt from a study of Hebrews I have by A.S. Copley helps with our understanding.

Heb 3:11 So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.)
Heb 3:12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.
Heb 3:13 But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.
Heb 3:14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;

LESSONS IN HEBREWS
FROM SHADOW TO SUBSTANCE
BY A.S. COPLEY
JESUS' HIGH PRIESTHOOD
CHAPTERS 3 to 7

"WHEREFORE holy brethren, partakers of a heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High
Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus" - Chap. 3:1. The High Priesthood of Jesus is the great
theme of this epistle. He is termed here "The Apostle," in contrast with Moses, who may be called
an apostle to Israel in his day. Moses is called a prophet in Deut. 18, where Jesus is foretold as
the Prophet who should come. In Deut. 33:5, Moses is termed a king. The Deity of Jesus Christ is
seen here in contrasting Him with Moses, who was faithful as "a servant" of God in leading Israel.
Jesus was more than a prophet and an apostle. He was God's Son; and He was God; for He
builded God's house, of which Moses was a part. Therefore, He deserves far more glory than
Moses. The national destiny of Israel will be on earth. But all who believe on Jesus thru-out this
age, whether Jews, or Gentiles, are reckoned in the church, whose calling is heavenly - I Cor.
12:12, 13 and Eph. 2:1. Hence, Paul addressed them as "partakers of a heavenly calling."
"But Christ as a Son over His own house, whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence
and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end" - V. 6. Does this "IF" determine man's eternal
destiny? Many folk claim it does. Paul does not here refer to personal salvation, but to the relation
of the Hebrews as a people to Christ. If they maintain the right attitude toward God, they are
called the "household of faith, the household of God" - Gal. 6:10 and Eph. 2:19. See also Matt.
24:45. Gentile believers also become members of God's great household by the same attitude of
faithfulness - Eph. 2:20-22. Col. 1:22, 23 conveys the same truth. A dozen children may keep a
household intact by confidence and obedience toward their parents; but if they break it up by
disobedience, they are still the children of those parents, tho' they may forfeit their future
inheritance. Hence, the fitting warning and exhortation which follow - "Harden not your hearts, as
in the provocation," etc. "So I swore in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest;" that is, into
the land of Canaan as the type, and into perfect rest of soul
- Chap. 4:9. Study these entreaties -
Verses 7 to 13. "For we are made partakers of the Christ if we hold the beginning of our
confidence steadfast unto the end" - V. 14. Like verse 6, this also has no reference to initial
salvation, but to our growth in grace. As we continue to believe in Christ and yield to Him, we
feed on Him and receive added strength, life and light from Him. All the graces of the Spirit
increase, and "the fruit of the Spirit" becomes more and more evident. Who failed to enter the
land of Canaan but those who failed to believe steadfastly the whole Word of God? - Vs. 15 to 19.
Who will receive no reward hereafter but those who fail to walk in the Spirit and judge their own
old man? They will be saved as by fire nevertheless - I Cor. 3:15.

The fourth chapter is an unfolding of this precious truth. Its theme is "His rest, My rest;" that is,
God's rest. "God did rest the seventh day from all His works" - V. 4. Hence, the seventh day
cessation from labor is typical of the rest of soul, promised by the Gospel - Matt. 11:28-30. It
typifies the millennium also, which the entering into Canaan suggested. Faith in the Gospel
brings salvation to sinners - Chap. 2:2-4. Likewise faith in the Gospel brings rest to believers,
which is the gist of this chapter. The power and profit of the Gospel, or Word of promise, are
emphasized; "for we which have believed do enter into rest." Perfect faith in Christ eliminates all
self-effort; "for he that is entered into His (God's) rest, also hath ceased (or rested) from his own
works, as God did from His" - V. 10. The possibility of falling from grace (Gal. 5:4) is here
indicated by verse 11, R.V. "Let us give diligence therefore to enter into that rest, that no man fall
into the same example of disobedience." The word Jesus in verse 8 should be Joshua. They
mean the same. "For the Word of God is quick (or living) and powerful (energetic) and sharper
than any two edged sword." Just think of that. It cuts where a material knife cannot, "piercing
even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit." Ah, yes, the Word shows up the soulish in
religious service and worship, and calls forth the spiritual, which does not grate, or grind. The fruit
of the Spirit is never soulish; neither can it be substituted, tho' an effort to imitate it may be made.
A heart knowledge of the full Gospel is the only way to spirituality, which culminates in this
sabbath rest in God. The Revised Version says, "Piercing even to the dividing of soul and spirit,
of both joints and marrow, and quick to discern the thoughts and intents of the heart." The joints
and marrow seem to answer to the soul and spirit, as if the spirit were to the soul what the
marrow in the bones is to the joints. The soulish life is swallowed up in the life of the spirit; that is,
our renewed human spirit is controlled by the Spirit of God. The Word also discerns whether the
thoughts and intents of the heart are in full harmony with God's will. We may think what to say, or
do, and intend to act accordingly; but fail to act. These attitudes of heart are discovered to us by
the Word of God, that we may be at our best in worship and service.

Profound comfort flows from verses 14 to 16. Our "Great High Priest" again appears on the
scene; for all our blessings and victories are dependent upon Him. He is "The Word," of which
the printed page is simply the channel of operation. He "passed into the heavens," in spite of
fierce opposition (Eph. 1:19-21), into the presence of God in our behalf - Chap. 7:25. We have
not a frail creature (who has sin in the flesh as we have) for our high priest - one "who cannot be
touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but one who was in all points tempted like as we are,
yet without sin." Therefore, He is able to succour us, or grant us frontrank protection, when we
are tempted - Chap. 2:18.

"Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace" - V. 16. Why did God set bound's lest
Israel might touch Mount Sinai when the law was given? - Ex. 19:12. "A fiery law" was given to
Moses by the hand of stern justice. Sinful man could not approach the throne of holy justice.
God's holy Son, as High Priest, had not yet offered Himself as a sacrifice in man's stead and
ascended to heaven with atoning wounds. But now, the throne of law has become the throne of
grace. Wonderful beyond words to express! We have a representative in heaven - a Mediator, a
Go-between, even our Elder Brother (chap. 2:11), in whom we are accepted - Eph. 1:6. The God
of justice sees us thru the wounds of His Son."

Back to my input below. :)
Heb 4:9 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.
Heb 4:10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.
Heb 4:11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.
 
New American Standard Bible
A Psalm of David. The LORD is my shepherd, I shall not want.

New American Standard Bible
and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.


Eternal security, and LIVING in eternal security is paramount in growing in His grace and Knowledge. We go nowhere in the Christian way of life if we think we have to maintain salvation or try to keep it......or do "good" to get it.

Acts 16:31. After the GIFT of Acts 16:31 everything is about rewards and glorifying Christ in time. He will get His glory for saving us........even if we choose to not glorify Him after he saves us.......(and the majority try to do their OWN 'good' rather than go off into sin and apostasy.)

Loss of salvation does not glorify Christ. It glorifies His creatures.
 
2 Peter 3
14 Therefore, beloved, since you are waiting for these, be diligent to be found by him without spot or blemish, and at peace.
15 And count the patience of our Lord as salvation, just as our beloved brother Paul also wrote to you according to the wisdom given him,
16 as he does in all his letters when he speaks in them of these matters. There are some things in them that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures.
17 You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, take care that you are not carried away with the error of lawless people and lose your own stability.
18 But grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To him be the glory both now and to the day of eternity. Amen.

1 John 2
22 Who is the liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, he who denies the Father and the Son.
23 No one who denies the Son has the Father. Whoever confesses the Son has the Father also.
24 Let what you heard from the beginning abide in you. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, then you too will abide in the Son and in the Father.
25 And this is the promise that he made to us-eternal life.
26 I write these things to you about those who are trying to deceive you.
27 But the anointing that you received from him abides in you, and you have no need that anyone should teach you. But as his anointing teaches you about everything, and is true, and is no lie-just as it has taught you, abide in him.

To deny that we are set free from the bondage of sin is to deny the Christ.
 
where is the text that says
I had posted:
"Staying "in the faith" is not equivalent to "staying saved", as it appears some may assume."

The better question is: where is the text that says they are equivalent?

It's an assumption that ceasing to believe means ceasing to be saved. There are no text that say this.

Furthermore, Jesus doesn't allow such assumption because He said that those He gives eternal life will never perish in John 10:28.

So, even those who cease to believe later on will never perish, because Jesus said so.

If continuous belief is a requirement to continue to be saved, then Jesus would have said something like this:
"I give them eternal life, and IF they continue to believe, they will never perish."

There are no such verses.

One will never perish on the sole condition of receiving eternal life.
 
Loss of salvation does not glorify Christ. It glorifies His creatures.
It's actually worse than that. It would show His words in John 10:28 to be a lie. Because He said those He gives eternal life will never perish.

It is so clear. I cannot understand how anyone who has read this verse can come away and still think that salvation can be lost.

Jesus does not permit such thinking.
 
Back to my input below. :)
Heb 4:9 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.
Heb 4:10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.
Heb 4:11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.


Yew, the rest that is being referred to here is the 1000 years we will be here with Christ on earth, without a body of sin, but a new glorified body that is sinless and immortal, with no enemies on earth, because they have been removed.

We will shine like the sun, in the glory of our Father.

No sin in our bodies to strive with. That will truly be a time of rest.

The Sabbath, that the weekly Sabbath points to.

The Day of the Lord. The 1000 year reign of Christ on earth.

34 Jesus answered and said to them, “The sons of this age marry and are given in marriage. 35 But those who are counted worthy to attain that age, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry nor are given in marriage; 36 nor can they die anymore, for they are equal to the angels and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection. Luke 20:34-36


41 The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness, 42 and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth. 43 Then the righteous will shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears to hear, let him hear! Matthew 13:41-43


And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake,
Some to everlasting life,
Some to shame and everlasting contempt.
Those who are wise shall shine
Like the brightness of the firmament,
And those who turn many to righteousness
Like the stars forever and ever.

Daniel 12:2-3


JLB
 
Which text teaches He forces us to stay ?

I think the better question is which text says we can leave union with Christ.

We know that Eph 1:13 teaches that having believed, we are marked in Him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit.

And v.14 says "who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance, for the day of redemption, as God's possession."

These verses make it impossible for those who have been sealed in Him (union with Christ) to be unsealed, or taken out of union with Christ.
no surprise you can not show a passage that says what you say they say... your opinions are just that like every one else an opinion ...
 
Furthermore, Jesus doesn't allow such assumption because He said that those He gives eternal life will never perish in John 10:28.

Here is what Jesus said in John 10:28 and it's context.

26 But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you. 27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand.
John 10:26-28

Here is the condition for being His sheep, in this passage:
  • My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.
The very next word, that connects what He just said, to what He is about to say, is the word "and".

"And" connects these two sentences, making them inseparable, making them a complete statement of truth.

I have never seen you quote this complete statement. WHY?

  • My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand

Did Judas hear His voice and follow Him?

The answer is yes, Judas did hear His voice and follow Him, then Judas was lost. Having become a traitor.

28 So Jesus said to them, “Assuredly I say to you, that in the regeneration, when the Son of Man sits on the throne of His glory, you who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. 29 And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or wife or children or lands, for My name’s sake, shall receive a hundredfold, and inherit eternal life.
Matthew 19:28-29

  • How can Judas be lost, if first he was not found?
  • How can Judas become a traitor if first he was not a loyal disciple and follower and apostle of Jesus?

Can we learn from his mistake, and draw near to the Lord and ask Him to reveal any wickedness in our heart, and confess our sin, and evil, and ask Him to remove it from us, and cleanse us of all unrighteousness.



JLB
 
Yew, the rest that is being referred to here is the 1000 years we will be here with Christ on earth, without a body of sin, but a new glorified body that is sinless and immortal, with no enemies on earth, because they have been removed.
Good morning.

Heb 4:3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath.
To me this is indicative of present tense, and our experience as believers not under law.
Heb 4:10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.

Rom 5:13 . . . sin is not imputed when there is no law.
Rom 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

Hebrews Chapter Four is also typical of the thousand year millennium dispensationally, but I’m a bit confused as to your suggestion that the Church will be on earth at that time. I’d like to discuss this with you if you’d start a new thread about your thoughts of it.
Thanks. :wave2
 
Back
Top