THE UNFORGIVEN SIN

[JLB]

Good morning.

Heb 4:3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath.
To me this is indicative of present tense, and our experience as believers not under law.
Heb 4:10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.

Rom 5:13 . . . sin is not imputed when there is no law.
Rom 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

Hebrews Chapter Four is also typical of the thousand year millennium dispensationally, but I’m a bit confused as to your suggestion that the Church will be on earth at that time. I’d like to discuss this with you if you’d start a new thread about your thoughts of it.
Thanks.

http://christianforums.net/Fellowship/index.php?threads/the-church-reigning-with-him-on-earth.70154/

 

[FreeGrace]

no surprise you can not show a passage that says what you say they say... your opinions are just that like every one else an opinion ...

This doesn't make sense. John 10:28 says what I've been saying; those who receive eternal life will never perish.

How is that an opinion?

And how is that not eternal security?

 

[JLB]

This doesn't make sense. John 10:28 says what I've been saying; those who receive eternal life will never perish.

How is that an opinion?

And how is that not eternal security?

Go ahead and post the actual scripture and it's context, so we can all discuss it like good Bereans, to study what it says.


Here is what Jesus said in John 10:28 and it's context.

26 But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you. 27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand.
John 10:26-28

Here is the condition for being His sheep, in this passage:

• My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.

The very next word, that connects what He just said, to what He is about to say, is the word "and".

"And" connects these two sentences, making them inseparable, making them a complete statement of truth.

I have never seen you quote this complete statement. WHY?

• My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand

Did Judas hear His voice and follow Him?

The answer is yes, Judas did hear His voice and follow Him, then Judas was lost. Having become a traitor.

28 So Jesus said to them, “Assuredly I say to you, that in the regeneration, when the Son of Man sits on the throne of His glory, you who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. 29 And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or wife or children or lands, for My name’s sake, shall receive a hundredfold, and inherit eternal life.
Matthew 19:28-29

• How can Judas be lost, if first he was not found?
• How can Judas become a traitor if first he was not a loyal disciple and follower and apostle of Jesus?

Can we learn from his mistake, and draw near to the Lord and ask Him to reveal any wickedness in our heart, and confess our sin, and evil, and ask Him to remove it from us, and cleanse us of all unrighteousness.



JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

Here is what Jesus said in John 10:28 and it's context.

26 But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you. 27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand.
John 10:26-28

The conclusion is that those He gives eternal life to will never perish.

Here is the condition for being His sheep, in this passage:

• My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.

The very next word, that connects what He just said, to what He is about to say, is the word "and".

The condition for being His sheep was covered back in v.9 - I am the gate; whoever enters through me will be saved.They will come in and go out, and find pasture.

Now, unless there is a verse that says that Jesus doesn't give eternal life to ALL saved people, you'd have a point. But there are NO such verses. What the Bible is clear about is that all who believe ARE saved, and ALL saved people HAVE eternal life.

Therefore, Jn 10:28 is a clear statement about eternal security.

My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand

Again, v.27 isn't a criterion for receiving eternal life, no matter how many times the claim is made. Jesus defined His sheep by those who "enter through Me" back in v.9. His sheep are SAVED sheep. They HAVE BEEN GIVEN eternal life. And they will never perish.

But even if v.27 is a condition for receiving eternal life (but it isn't), the point REMAINS that His sheep will never perish, from v.28.

Did Judas hear His voice and follow Him?

No. What verse says that Judas ever believed? None. Jesus identified Judas as not being "clean" in John 13 -
10 Jesus answered, “Those who have had a bath need only to wash their feet; their whole body is clean. And you are clean, though not every one of you.”
11 For he knew who was going to betray him, and that was why he said not every one was clean.

The answer is yes, Judas did hear His voice and follow Him, then Judas was lost. Having become a traitor.

This opinion is refuted by Jesus' words in John 13:10-11.

 

[FreeGrace]

Go ahead and post the actual scripture and it's context, so we can all discuss it like good Bereans, to study what it says.

I've already shown that v.27 isn't about the condition for being His sheep, and the fact that even if it were, the point of v.28 is that ALL of His sheep will never perish.

The loss of salvation view has some of His sheep becoming not His sheep, through behavior issues. Where is that text in the Bible?

It does not exist.

Here is what Jesus said in John 10:28 and it's context.

26 But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you. 27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand.
John 10:26-28

The point remains that His sheep will never perish. That's as clear as it can get about eternal security.

Why was the previous post repeated?

 

[Nathan]

Eze 34:17-24
“As for you, my flock, thus says the Lord GOD: Behold, I judge between sheep and sheep, between rams and male goats. Is it not enough for you to feed on the good pasture, that you must tread down with your feet the rest of your pasture; and to drink of clear water, that you must muddy the rest of the water with your feet? And must my sheep eat what you have trodden with your feet, and drink what you have muddied with your feet?

“Therefore, thus says the Lord GOD to them: Behold, I, I myself will judge between the fat sheep and the lean sheep. Because you push with side and shoulder, and thrust at all the weak with your horns, till you have scattered them abroad, I will rescue my flock; they shall no longer be a prey. And I will judge between sheep and sheep. And I will set up over them one shepherd, my servant David, and he shall feed them: he shall feed them and be their shepherd. And I, the LORD, will be their God, and my servant David shall be prince among them. I am the LORD; I have spoken.

We know that a sheep is not one of His because the sheep declares it. We also know that if sheep turn on other sheep, then they have turned from the Shepherd - and He will judge them. His sheep, the ones who He gives eternal life too, are the ones who hear and follow Him.

Mat 24:45-51
“Who then is the faithful and wise servant, whom his master has set over his household, to give them their food at the proper time? Blessed is that servant whom his master will find so doing when he comes. Truly, I say to you, he will set him over all his possessions. But if that wicked servant says to himself, ‘My master is delayed,’ and begins to beat his fellow servants and eats and drinks with drunkards, the master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he does not know and will cut him in pieces and put him with the hypocrites. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

 

[FreeGrace]

We know that a sheep is not one of His because the sheep declares it. We also know that if sheep turn on other sheep, then they have turned from the Shepherd - and He will judge them. His sheep, the ones who He gives eternal life too, are the ones who hear and follow Him.

If salvation could be lost, then one of His sheep becomes not His sheep. Where does the Bible teach this idea?

Further, since Jesus was clear in John 10:28 that His sheep are recipients of eternal life, and as such, will never perish, how can any of His sheep ever perish, since Jesus said they will never perish?

 

[Nathan]

If salvation could be lost, then one of His sheep becomes not His sheep. Where does the Bible teach this idea?

Further, since Jesus was clear in John 10:28 that His sheep are recipients of eternal life, and as such, will never perish, how can any of His sheep ever perish, since Jesus said they will never perish?

Refer to the passages I posted above your post. They explain it very well.

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"Further, since Jesus was clear in John 10:28 that His sheep are recipients of eternal life, and as such, will never perish, how can any of His sheep ever perish, since Jesus said they will never perish?"

Refer to the passages I posted above your post. They explain it very well.

Actually, passages generally need explanation. And none of the passages posted answered my question.

Can any of Jesus' sheep perish?

 

[Nathan]

I said this:
"Further, since Jesus was clear in John 10:28 that His sheep are recipients of eternal life, and as such, will never perish, how can any of His sheep ever perish, since Jesus said they will never perish?"

Actually, passages generally need explanation. And none of the passages posted answered my question.

Can any of Jesus' sheep perish?

The passages I posted do not need explanation. I am sorry if you do not find the answer you seek. None of Jesus sheep will perish.

 

[FreeGrace]

The passages I posted do not need explanation. I am sorry if you do not find the answer you seek. None of Jesus sheep will perish.

Right. None will. That is eternal security. No one He gives eternal life to will perish.

So, once saved, always saved. Or,
Once eternal life, will never perish.

 

[Nathan]

Right. None will. That is eternal security. No one He gives eternal life to will perish.

So, once saved, always saved. Or,
Once eternal life, will never perish.

Well, I wouldn't say that. It would not be the truth to say once eternal life, will never perish.

Jesus died on the cross. So we know that someone with eternal life can die.

 

[gr8grace3]

no surprise you can not show a passage that says what you say they say... your opinions are just that like every one else an opinion ...

Yes, there are scripture's that say he "forces" us to stay saved. There are NO passages that say he forces us to follow Him after He saves us. We use our volition(freewill) to follow or not follow after he SECURELY saves and seals us.

He tells us after He saves us...........you are NOT your own and You were BOUGHT with a price......Saved.

If we follow Him and advance in His word...................disciple.

New American Standard Bible
Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and that you are not your own?

New American Standard Bible
You were bought with a price; do not become slaves of men.

If we follow Him and advance in His grace and Knowledge this is what we will hear.....

New American Standard Bible
"By this all men will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another."

 

[reba]

How is force spelled ?

 

[Cygnus]

Yes, there are scripture's that say he "forces" us to stay saved. There are NO passages that say he forces us to follow Him after He saves us. We use our volition(freewill) to follow or not follow after he SECURELY saves and seals us.

He tells us after He saves us...........you are NOT your own and You were BOUGHT with a price......Saved.

If we follow Him and advance in His word...................disciple.

New American Standard Bible
Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and that you are not your own?

New American Standard Bible
You were bought with a price; do not become slaves of men.

If we follow Him and advance in His grace and Knowledge this is what we will hear.....

New American Standard Bible
"By this all men will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another."

Wow, what an interesting way to look at that.

 

[Douglas Summers]

Should we consider the difference between outright rejection (someone fully informed) and ignorance? Someone might hear the gospel on a street corner and wave it off as 'lunacy' but at a different setting be convicted.

God knows! That will be God's judgement upon the tares.(Matt. 13:24-30) As it will be during the everlasting Gospel. (Rev. 16:6-7) (2 Tim. 2:18-20)

 

[Nathan]

Yea, I absolutely do not see there being a forcing of one to stay in salvation. The verses posted speak of what He did. That is not anywhere near forcing someone.

So salvation is supposedly forced, but fellowship isn't? That just sounds weird to me. God forces us to have life, but doesn't force us to have fellowship?

If this was true there would have to be some sort of passage saying something close to it.

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"Right. None will. That is eternal security. No one He gives eternal life to will perish.

So, once saved, always saved. Or,
Once eternal life, will never perish."

Well, I wouldn't say that. It would not be the truth to say once eternal life, will never perish.

Why not? Jesus said, "I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish." Jn 10:28

Therefore, whoever receives eternal life will never perish, because Jesus said so.

Jesus died on the cross. So we know that someone with eternal life can die.

All of physical bodies will die. That has nothing to do with eternal life. Even unbelievers will exist for ever and ever, but it's not called "life", it's called the second death, which is being separated from God in the lake of fire.

 

[FreeGrace]

Yea, I absolutely do not see there being a forcing of one to stay in salvation. The verses posted speak of what He did. That is not anywhere near forcing someone.

So salvation is supposedly forced, but fellowship isn't? That just sounds weird to me. God forces us to have life, but doesn't force us to have fellowship?

If this was true there would have to be some sort of passage saying something close to it.

The idea of "forcing" is hardly the issue. The point of Jesus is that those He gives eternal life to will never perish. Notice that for those to whom He gives eternal life, He gave no conditions for never perishing. I think that's what's bugging some people. They insist on conditions beyond initial faith. But Jesus never gave any.

So we don't need to.

 

[chessman]

God forces us to have life, but doesn't force us to have fellowship?

The Greek word for "force" derives it's meaning from the Greek word for "life" (bios).

HELPS Word-studies
979 bíos – properly, God's gift of physicallife, animating all creation "to live and move and have its being" (cf. Ac 17:28)

HELPS Word-studies
971 biázō – properly, to use power to forcibly seize, laying hold of something with positive aggressiveness. 971 /biázō("to advance forcefully") is only used twice in the NT (both times positively).

http://biblehub.com/greek/971.htm

Acts 17:26-28 And he made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined allotted periods and the boundaries of their dwelling place, that they should seek God, and perhaps feel their way toward him and find him. Yet he is actually not far from each one of us, for

“In him we live and move and have our being’; ​

as even some of your own poets have said,

‘For we are indeed his offspring.’ ​