The Value of Evangelism in Reformed Theology

[jerry63935]

Nothing complicated about it. A person needs spiritual life to perform spiritual activity, just like a person needs physical life to perform physical activities.

yes but you fail to point out that your saying its a 2=3 step process to be saved

 

[jerry63935]

I'm aware of what man consist of, nothing new there. However man by nature is dead spiritually in trespasses and sin Eph 2:1,5!

the moment we get saved the spirit quickens us bring us to new life

 

[JLB]

I'm aware of what man consist of, nothing new there. However man by nature is dead spiritually in trespasses and sin Eph 2:1,5!

What is the purpose of man’s body, man’s soul, man’s spirit?


JLB

 

[JLB]

I'm aware of what man consist of, nothing new there. However man by nature is dead spiritually in trespasses and sin Eph 2:1,5!

Man has spiritual life working in him from birth.

The burden of the word of the LORD against Israel. Thus says the LORD, who stretches out the heavens, lays the foundation of the earth, and forms the spirit of man within him:
Zechariah 12:1

 

[brightfame52]

yes but you fail to point out that your saying its a 2=3 step process to be saved

I dont understand. Man is spiritually dead in sin, alienated from the life of God. I said nothing about any process !

 

[brightfame52]

Man has spiritual life working in him from birth.

The burden of the word of the LORD against Israel. Thus says the LORD, who stretches out the heavens, lays the foundation of the earth, and forms the spirit of man within him:
Zechariah 12:1

Sorry no scripture says man has spiritual life working in him from birth. Man is spiritually dead from birth and hence must be born again ! Sure man has a spirit, but its natural and dead spiritually. In New Birth God puts a New Spirit in a man Ezk 36:26

26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

 

[brightfame52]

What is the purpose of man’s body, man’s soul, man’s spirit?


JLB

Thats another subject that I dont care to discuss. What you need to know is that naturally man is dead in sin, and alienated from the life of God Eph 4 18

Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart:

That word alienated means:

to be shut out from one's fellowship and intimacy

Also the words being alienated are in the passive voice, meaning God is alienating them, they're the recipients of the action.

 

[jerry63935]

I dont understand. Man is spiritually dead in sin, alienated from the life of God. I said nothing about any process !

and i said it was a spiritual Birth..the spirit quickens brings to life .the very moment we are saved by grace through faith.he breathes new life into us.

 

[GodsGrace]

How can a spiritually dead person do anything of a spiritual nature ?

How dead are we?
Are we so dead that we cannot do good?
Do atheists do any good at all?

Are we so dead that we cannot do evil?
Evil is perpetrated on mankind every day.

Even those that do not know God can do good
or they can do evil.

We are not so dead that we are not ABLE to respond to God's call.

Romans teaches that we HEAR and then WE HAVE FAITH.
Romans 10:17
17So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.

First we HEAR
then we are ABLE to believe or not believe.

THEN comes FAITH, which came by hearing and the ability we have to accept.


Paul told the jailer:
BELIEVE IN JESUS and you WILL BE SAVED.

FIRST we believe
THEN we are saved.
Acts 16:31
31They said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved,


JESUS said that before becoming a disciple of His...we should count the cost.
Luke 14:27-28
27“Whoever does not carry his own cross and come after Me cannot be My disciple.
28“For which one of you, when he wants to build a tower, does not first sit down and calculate the cost to see if he has enough to complete it?

Jesus said we must carry our own cross to be His disciple.
He put the responsibility on US, INDIVIDUALLY, to carry our own cross.
This is NOT determinism. It is free will.

Then Jesus said we should stop and consider carefully IF WE WANT to be a disciple of His.
Are we willing to pay the price?
This is NOT determinism. It is free will.

Calvinism makes Jesus sound like a fool...
OR
He wasn't aware that God predestined EVERYTHING.

 

[GodsGrace]

Reformed thinking of Double Predestination - R.C. Sproul

What Double Predestination is: We can call this a positive-positive view of predestination. This is, God positively and actively intervenes in the lives of the elect to bring them to salvation. In the same way God positively and actively intervenes in the life of the reprobate to bring him to sin.

This distortion of positive-positive predestination clearly makes God the author of sin who punishes a person for doing what God monergistically and irresistibly coerces man to do. Such a view is indeed a monstrous assault on the integrity of God. wondering This is not the Reformed view of predestination, but a gross and inexcusable caricature of the doctrine. Such a view may be identified with what is often loosely described as hyper-Calvinism and involves a radical form of supralapsarianism. Such a view of predestination has been virtually universally and monolithically rejected by Reformed thinkers.

The Reformed View of Predestination

In sharp contrast to the caricature of double predestination seen in the positive-positive schema is the classic position of Reformed theology on predestination. In this view predestination is double in that it involves both election and reprobation but is not symmetrical with respect to the mode of divine activity. A strict parallelism of operation is denied. Rather we view predestination in terms of a positive-negative relationship.


In the Reformed view God from all eternity decrees some to election and positively intervenes in their lives to work regeneration and faith by a monergistic work of grace. To the non-elect God withholds this monergistic work of grace, passing them by and leaving them to themselves. He does not monergistically work sin or unbelief in their lives. Even in the case of the “hardening” of the sinners’ already recalcitrant hearts, God does not, as Luther stated, “work evil in us (for hardening is working evil) by creating fresh evil in us.”
Luther continued: When men hear us say that God works both good and evil in us, and that we are subject to God’s working by mere passive necessity, they seem to imagine a man who is in himself good, and not evil, having an evil work wrought in him by God; for they do not sufficiently bear in mind how incessantly active God is in all His creatures, allowing none of them to keep holiday. He who would understand these matters, however, should think thus: God works evil in us (that is, by means of us) not through God’s own fault, but by reason of our own defect. We being evil by nature, and God being good, when He impels us to act by His own acting upon us according to the nature of His omnipotence, good though He is in Himself, He cannot but do evil by our evil instrumentality; although, according to His wisdom, He makes good use of this evil for His own glory and for our salvation.

Thus, the mode of operation in the lives of the elect is not parallel with that operation in the lives of the reprobate. God works regeneration monergistically but never sin. Sin falls within the category of providential concurrence.

Another significant difference between the activity of God with respect to the elect and the reprobate concerns God’s justice. The decree and fulfillment of election provide mercy for the elect while the efficacy of reprobation provides justice for the reprobate. God shows mercy sovereignly and unconditionally to some, and gives justice to those passed over in election. That is to say, God grants the mercy of election to some and justice to others. No one is the victim of injustice. To fail to receive mercy is not to be treated unjustly. God is under no obligation to grant mercy to all—in fact He is under no obligation to grant mercy to any. He says, “I will have mercy upon whom I will have mercy” (Rom. 9). The divine prerogative to grant mercy voluntarily cannot be faulted. If God is required by some cosmic law apart from Himself to be merciful to all men, then we would have to conclude that justice demands mercy. If that is so, then mercy is no longer voluntary, but required. If mercy is required, it is no longer mercy, but justice. What God does not do is sin by visiting injustice upon the reprobate. Only by considering election and reprobation as being asymmetrical in terms of a positive-negative schema can God be exonerated from injustice.

Aside: The Reformed doctrine of Single Predestination is not easily grasped.

LOL
Nothing is easily grasped in calvinist concepts.
It's because they are not indicative of what the bible PLAINLY AND SIMPLY teaches.

But more later....

 

[brightfame52]

and i said it was a spiritual Birth..the spirit quickens brings to life .the very moment we are saved by grace through faith.he breathes new life into us.

You putting the cart before the horse. A spiritually dead person has no spiritual life, Faith is a Spiritual grace. Once a person is made alive first, given Spiritual life, then he can have faith.

 

[brightfame52]

How dead are we?
Are we so dead that we cannot do good?
Do atheists do any good at all?

Are we so dead that we cannot do evil?
Evil is perpetrated on mankind every day.

Even those that do not know God can do good
or they can do evil.

We are not so dead that we are not ABLE to respond to God's call.

Romans teaches that we HEAR and then WE HAVE FAITH.
Romans 10:17
17So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.

First we HEAR
then we are ABLE to believe or not believe.

THEN comes FAITH, which came by hearing and the ability we have to accept.


Paul told the jailer:
BELIEVE IN JESUS and you WILL BE SAVED.

FIRST we believe
THEN we are saved.
Acts 16:31
31They said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved,


JESUS said that before becoming a disciple of His...we should count the cost.
Luke 14:27-28
27“Whoever does not carry his own cross and come after Me cannot be My disciple.
28“For which one of you, when he wants to build a tower, does not first sit down and calculate the cost to see if he has enough to complete it?

Jesus said we must carry our own cross to be His disciple.
He put the responsibility on US, INDIVIDUALLY, to carry our own cross.
This is NOT determinism. It is free will.

Then Jesus said we should stop and consider carefully IF WE WANT to be a disciple of His.
Are we willing to pay the price?
This is NOT determinism. It is free will.

Calvinism makes Jesus sound like a fool...
OR
He wasn't aware that God predestined EVERYTHING.

Nothing a dead person can do. He needs life to be able to do something !

 

[GodsGrace]

Sweet, this is your official definition of agape love (God's love).
Minor flaw in the definition ... when I went to school and was asked for a definition I was told you can't use the word you are definition in the definition. (circular logic)
Possible flaw 2: Why does 'agape love' have to be sacrificial? Example: What does God give up when he makes sure we have something to eat or, is this not a manifestation of love?

Guess I'm not RC.
In general all Christians know about Agape love. I don't feel like I have to write a teatise on it.
And just because one uses the word does not cause circular logic...I gave enough meaning.

As to flaw 2:
Give some credit for intelligence FF.
Do you think I think God has to sacrifice something to show love?
Not always.
He did, however, sacrifice His Son for us.

Agreed



I don't fully agree. I think the compassion has to be in lieu of an offense
I can have compassion of a blind person; yet not don't have to show mercy
Dictionary: compassion or forbearance shown especially to an offender or to one subject to one's power;

Could we stop with the English lessons?

compassionate or kindly forbearance shown toward an offender, an enemy, or other person in one's power; compassion, pity, or benevolence:Have mercy on the poor sinner.
the disposition to be compassionate or forbearing:an adversary wholly without mercy.
the discretionary power of a judge to pardon someone or to mitigate punishment, especially to send to prison rather than invoke the death penalty.
an act of kindness, compassion, or favor:She has performed countless small mercies for her friends and neighbors.
something that gives evidence of divine favor; blessing:It was just a mercy we had our seat belts on when it happened.

source: https://www.dictionary.com/browse/mercy

As you can see, it means more than your limited definition.

God is compassionate...God is merciful
THIS is all we should be discussing ...

Hebrews 4:16
Let us then with confidence draw near to the throne of grace, that we may receive mercy and find grace to help in time of need.


Luke 6:36
Be merciful, even as your Father is merciful.


Matthew 5:7
“Blessed are the merciful, for they shall receive mercy.

Give me an example of Justice and Mercy for the same circumstance. (unless you mean partial justice and partial mercy. )

Justice:
All are born lost because of Adam's sin. Romans 5:17
God made a way for us to be saved by the atoning sacrifice of His Son. Ephesians 5:2
That WHOEVER believes in the Son will be saved. John 3:16

How it is justice then to send a baby to heaven and not everyone else. Given the choice, I think most would say: "I would prefer to go to heaven right away than take the chance of going to hell ... especially since 90% (my guess) go to hell. This is a clear example of not giving everyone the same opportunity to be saved. (100% vs. 10%)

The baby has not had the opportunity to come to believe and have faith in God.
God is just.
Everyone has the same opportunity to be saved. Romans 1:19-20

Aside: I partially see why you think people who don't hear the gospel can go to heaven. It fits your definition of a just God.
Conjecture: I assume that the same percent of people go to heaven that hear the gospel as don't hear the gospel; otherwise, that wouldn't fit your definition of a just God which is "gives to everyone the same opportunity to be saved." Considering the theme of the thread (the value of evangelism in reformed theology) that would infer that evangelism has no effective role from your view point ... at least in regard to number of people being saved.

Evangelism has a very effective role due to my theological belief.
Faith comes by HEARING.... Acts 10:42

Jesus ordered the Apostles to witness and teach and preach and baptize.
We must obey God and not man. Acts 5:29

I never said "based on nothing at all". Based on God will ... he makes some to be His children and others to be sons of Satan. I do contend that salvation is not based on what the elect do. I do say the elect will manifest God's regeneration by obedience because their will has been changed by God.
I showed a few verses in previous post. I can list 100s (some more to the point than others).

In Calvinism, God picks and chooses those that will be saved based on NOTHING AT ALL.
If YOU know on what God bases His choice...please state it.

And the answer CANNOT be HIS WILL.
If we are to be saved, we MUST know HOW since God is a just God and gives to everyone
that ACCEPTS HIS CONDITIONS to be saved.

Now this is interesting ...
Give me an example of something God did not cause ... and then tell me what was the cause. (Oh, I think I will enjoy this answer.
Now for a tricky question. You said God created everything. Did He create evil? (dirty question... but interesting)

God is good and in Him there is no darkness. 1 John 1:5
When we read the bible we must base everything on a FACT:
One fact is that GOD IS GOOD AND IN HIM THERE IS NO DARKNESS.
Everything else we read MUST agree and be reconciled to this.

You want an example of something God did not cause?
He did not cause Columbine...or anything else like that because that was a very dark event.

You have yet to define "free will" so I won't respond.

Calvinists have a difficult time understanding free will.
Those of us that have free will understand it very well.
See Philemon 1:14

See everywhere Jesus states that IF WE WILL something...
Jesus seems to understand what free will is...He gives US the choice of obeying Him or not.
John 15:6 IF anyone does not abide in Christ...He is thrown away...

This is a complete and utter misunderstanding of calvinism in this regard. It is also a misunderstanding of what 'evil' is IMO. See the following.
THE BAPTIST CONFESSION OF FAITH states: God hath decreed in himself, from all eternity, by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely and unchangeably, all things, whatsoever comes to pass; yet so as thereby is God neither the author of sin nor hath fellowship with any therein
The Westminster Confession says something similar. Find me anything where Reformed Theology says God created evil. Give me a quote. God permits evil (I assume you agreed) and God uses evil for good (I assume you agree), but He does not author evil. FIND ME A QUOTE (not a statement from which you infer to mean God created evil)

How about quoting scripture instead of the Baptist Confession of Faith or the Westminster Confession of Faith.
Is the bible our authority or is it a catechism that some men wrote?
Perhaps we should all study the Catechism of the Catholic Church? There are some great paragraphs in there....

A confession of faith could state that God did not create sin, or evil..
BUT
IF God determined everything from the beginning of time...
then EVERYTHING includes sin and evil.

Thus, I understand calvinism very well and do not agree with it.

Calvinist's considered semi-pelagians dualists which is to say there are two powers determining events: God and man.
God can sovereignly choose to make some of his decisions dependent upon the decisions of creatures. God takes the risk that his desires may be thwarted in some cases—we may not do what God desires. Hence, given the type of world God decided to create, he cannot guarantee that everything will go precisely the way he would like. God has sovereignly decided to make his election to salvation dependent upon human response to divine grace. John Sanders - http://drjohnsanders.com/is-open-theism-a-radical-revision-or-miniscule-modification-of-arminianism/

I don't know about semi-pelagianism.
Please quote scripture.

These seems to be your contention in regards to Reform theology. I showed above that Reformed doctrine specifically states God is not the author of evil. I think you conflate God's allowing for evil with God authoring evil in regards to reform theology.

No. In MY thological belief God ALLOWS evil.
In calvinist belief God CREATED AND DECREES AND DETERMINES evil.
Again,,,,if God predestined everything from the beginning of time...
EVERYTHING includes sin and evil.

You agree with me. God loves some people less than others. That is manifested in his elected (loving) some for salvation.

Just need your definition of "free will".

Almost your bedtime.

No more defining free will.
God loves all His creation....but not all will be His beloved Sons.
Remeber that Jesus is God and He wept for Jerusalem because
she would not COME TO HIM.
Again,,,,showing that it was the free will of those in Jerusalem that they did not CHOOSE to
believe in Messiah. (He certainly didn't mean the city of Jerusalem).

 

[GodsGrace]

Nothing a dead person can do. He needs life to be able to do something !

YOU are alive brightflame.
You CHOSE to be on this forum.
You CHOOSE when to sin and when not to sin.
Do you believe it is GOD that makes you sin (when you do)?

Why would God make you sin?

Why would God send some of His created beings to heaven and others to hell?
How does it glorify God to torture the very beings He created.

God IS LOVE.
How is it love for Him to send some to hell through no fault of their own.

You buy two puppies.
You love one and feed it and keep it warm and love it.
You starve the other one and kick it and throw it out into the cold.
HOW IS THIS LOVING?
Surely you do not believe the owner is a LOVING person?=?

 

[JLB]

Sure man has a spirit, but its natural and dead spiritually.

How does the spirit of man sustain the life of the body if it has no life?


For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also. James 2:26




JLB

 

[brightfame52]

How does the spirit of man sustain the life of the body if it has no life?


For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also. James 2:26




JLB

Not relevant in my opinion. Man by nature is spiritually dead in sin Eph 2:1,5

 

[brightfame52]

YOU are alive brightflame.
You CHOSE to be on this forum.
You CHOOSE when to sin and when not to sin.
Do you believe it is GOD that makes you sin (when you do)?

Why would God make you sin?

Why would God send some of His created beings to heaven and others to hell?
How does it glorify God to torture the very beings He created.

God IS LOVE.
How is it love for Him to send some to hell through no fault of their own.

You buy two puppies.
You love one and feed it and keep it warm and love it.
You starve the other one and kick it and throw it out into the cold.
HOW IS THIS LOVING?
Surely you do not believe the owner is a LOVING person?=?

What does this have to do with man being spiritually dead ?

 

[for_his_glory]

Right for his glory....
Agreed.
I did mention this in my post....
I said that man was to be the steward of the earth.

I just don't know if there is A reason....
But the above is good.

I would think that would be the reason as man being the steward over God's creation to tend it and preserve its beauty glorifying God within all of it.

 

[for_his_glory]

Hmmm, I know 51 verses saying God chose (predestined, elected) men to salvation... many more where He "called" to salvation, many more where it states it is God will as to who is saved, verses where faith comes from God, yahda, yahda, yahda ...

God only chooses those who will come to Him. God did not predestine the man (which individuals would be saved & lost), He predestined the plan (how men would be saved) - read again Acts 10:34-35; Eph. 1:3-12; Rom. 8:28-30; 10:9-17.

​

 

[for_his_glory]

Nothing complicated about it. A person needs spiritual life to perform spiritual activity, just like a person needs physical life to perform physical activities.

Let me ask you this, how did you personally become Spiritually alive?