The Value of Evangelism in Reformed Theology

[GodsGrace]

I agree that God does not love those to whom He does not give salvation. The definition of love does not preclude loving person "A" and not loving person "B". Love requires an object, but love does not require that one loves all objects without exception. (Jacob I loved but Esau I hated.)
(My definition of love: Volition to favor.
Conditions for God loving an object: according to the loveliness of the object; the more the object resembles God the more it will be loved as God has infinite loveliness.
How does man become lovely: By being "in Christ". I say God puts a man "in Christ by giving him faith, you say man earns his salvation by salvific belief..)

Here's part 2 from before.
I do believe God loves His creation and is sorry for those that do not accept His conditions for salvation.
However, we know from scripture that the wrath of God will be upon those that do not accept Him.

As support I would offer:
John 3.16 God so loved THE WORLD.

Acts 10:34-35 God shows no partiality.

1 John 2:2 Jesus is the propitiation for the sins of the whole world.

2 Peter 3:9 God wishes that all would come to repentence.

I agree that God is loving toward those that believe in His Son.
Very nice how you describe those being In Christ as Lovely.
This is how God sees us who believe in Jesus.

And, yes, God reveals Himself to us...
But we are saved by our faith.
We are saved by grace THROUGH faith....Eph 2:8
The grace is God's part.
The faith is our part....

Jesus explained that it is up to us, individually, to decide to follow Him.

Luke 9:23
And he said to all, “If anyone would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me.

Why would Jesus say IF as if each person could decide for themselves?


2 Corinthians 5:17
Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come.

By your theology, it would have to say: If anyone is a new creation...he is In Christ.

But no....First we are in Christ and THEN we become a new creation.

Well, we have a disagreement on how the process works IMO. I believe NO ONE wants to be saved (depravity of man, no one seeks God). Thus I don't except your premise that there are those who want to be saved via their own free will. There's a verse that all who seek him He will not turn away ... but none seek Him unless they are first regenerated. I know you don't agreed with me about the process. But that I my answer.

Romans 1:19-20 disagrees with you.
God has always made Himself known through His creation.
Even the O.T. tells us to seek God while He may be found.
Jesus tells us to seek God. Matthew 5

Every gets what they deserve. You, IMO, conflate justice with mercy. You think to be just one must offer mercy to everyone. Example: I don't think it unjust that the president does not give a pardon to everyone. Those who did not get a pardon still got justice.

Justice and mercy are two different qualities.
Everyone deserves justice,
but not everyone deserves mercy.

In your example, those that did not receive a pardon got justice IF THEY HAD THE SAME OPPORTUNITY. Which, in most cases they do not. But let's stick to God since His ways are not our ways. Man is damaged by sin...God is not.

It is justice as they got what they deserved. But using your logic as I see it, it is unjust for babies to go to heaven as they didn't have to earn via faith. It is unjust to not offer fallen angels a chance to repent. It is unjust that those that don't hear the gospel go to hell (Yeah, I know you think they have a chance, but to most that is a valid point)

We've been through this FF.
I NEVER said it is unjust for babies to go to heaven.
I've said the opposite.

Jesus did NOT DIE for fallen angels.
Angels have already decided and will not be receiving a second chance. Please let's stop talking about angels.

Those that do not hear the gospel can go to either heaven or hell, but I won't repeat this here.

Psalm 89.14
14Righteousness and justice are the foundation of Your throne;
Lovingkindness and truth go before You.

I've often thought is to be unjust to be damned because of Adam's sin. But God is just by definition, so I accept it.

Why is it unjust? Adam represented all mankind. God told him that he would die if he ate.
Adam did not obey. Obedience to God is absolutely necessary.
We are born separated from God.

God is under no obligation to grant mercy to everyone. I can understand where you are coming from though.
Sometimes I just wonder "Why me, why did you save me". Here you have an advantage over me, as you believe you have the answer.

Agreed. God has set standards and we must adhere to that standard if we are to be saved.
He let us know EXACTLY what we must do to be saved.
This is how justice is achieved...God let's us know His conditions and we either accept them or not.

With calvinist theology God is UNJUST because there are no standards, no conditions to which we could
aspire to be saved. He chooses, for whatever reason - which we don't even know - and yet calvin believed this was justice because we are all born lost and no one deserves mercy.

Then, to be just, we should all be damned forever.
This would then be justice. When God starts picking out the lucky few --- justice ends.
But praise God, He has given us a way to salvation through His Son and
our free will desire to be disciples of His Son and to be saved through Him.

part 1 of 2

 

[GodsGrace]

Fastfredy0


part 2 of 2

Everything God creates or approves of is good.
I don't know for sure if Satan existed before the earth was created. I think so. I assume Satan had fallen before the creation of the earth. At any rate, Satan had fallen before talking to Eve.

Deep conversation.
I believe, however, as you do.

"What is agape love?" The Greek word agape means goodwill, benevolence, and willful delight in the object of love. Agape love involves faithfulness, commitment, and an act of the will. It is distinguished from the other types of love by its lofty moral nature. www.gotquestions.org/agape-love.html

I agree with the definition above. He does not favor everyone the same. To those He has chosen he loves (favors) much, much more than those He has not chosen. God is holy and this describes all His moral attributes. His love is holy (lofty moral nature) so if He loves the unsaved (sons of Satan) then He cannot but loathe himself as He loathes evil; yet would love that which is evil. (Aside: He loves (favors) everyone to the extent that the rain falls on everyone ... or as the Canadian Bible puts it, the snow fall on everyone)

I'm sorry FF. I haven't been clear.
God loves HIS CREATION.
But He loathes evil and calls some acts an abomination.
All are not HIS CHILDREN...only those that desire to be.

I think we agree on this when I read your statements and it's not worth any more time.

Agreed



Agreed. I wondered if you thought this was unjust as you seems to think it unjust of God to not offer everyone a chance to be saved. I was seeing if your definition of justice withstood scrutiny. (In other words, I was trying to poke a hole in your argument *smile*) Tadaisdad (sp?) thought it a straw man argument ... I think it is a good test of your consistency)


Apologies. Possibly the statement that God loves everyone the same including the sons of Satan (those not in Christ) is equally insulting to a holy, moral God in which there is no darkness.

I'm not sure what you're speaking of and I can't go back to find out.
I'm not on more than 1 or 2 threads...I just don't have the time so I'll let the above comments go due to time constraints. Apology accepted - I new you couldn't have meant what you proposed.

Agreed. We disagree as to the source of belief. You say it is yourself and Christ that saved you (you believed, He died and rose again) ... I say Christ alone saved me (He gave me faith and he died and rose again)

THIS, instead, is what I'd like to address.
This is the whole point....free will.
Do we have it or not?

I could give you many verses that show we do have free will.
Which verses do YOU believe show that we do not have it?
This will save some time.

I hope you realize that free will is part of
Total Depravity----man can choose.
Unconditional Election---man chooses God.
Limited Atonement----Jesus died for t he sins of the whole world.
Irrisestible grace----We are not forced to accept God's grace.
Perseverance of the saints---We are not forced to persevere.

Agreed... (well, He loved (favored) His creation at first, then he cursed it (unfavor))

Agreed.

Well, best to define love IMO. A volition to favor and it is ALWAYS HOLY. I contend that your definition of love is at times UNHOLY as you believe God loves that which is sinful and unforgiven (the unsaved). Aside: I believe your intentions are 100% virtuous. ... of course, I am full of ka-ka if I am wrong *smile*

The above is an interesting concept.
Since, in YOUR theology, God determines EVERYTHING...including sin....
And since it is HE that determines the unsaved....
HOW is it just for Him to hate these in YOUR theology??

Well, it is definitely within the realm of possibilities that I am the one guilty distortions. We both try to do our best IMO.

We can only do our best.

 

[Fastfredy0]

God was lonely ?

I'll take a stab at it ...

Acts 17:25 nor is He served by human hands, as though He needed anything, because it is He who gives to all [people] life and breath and all things.

God’s love is fulfilled without us, for God enjoys his eternal beloved in the uncreated, triune relationships of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit (John 17:24). Joel Beeke
Willard said, “God’s sufficiency (or all sufficiency) is his divine fullness, by virtue whereof he hath enough in himself to answer all his own ends

 

[Fastfredy0]

I do believe God loves His creation and is sorry for those that do not accept His conditions for salvation.

I don't think God ever feels sadness (may use the term amorpormorphicly). To be sad or to hate as human do is not possible for God as they are traits of imperfect being. (In other words, how can the PERFECT I AM have these negative traits) If he doth whatsoever he pleaseth, nothing can make him miserable, since misery consists in those things which happen against our will. Stephen Charnock
Granted this is based on reformed doctrine that God ordains (not causes) all things. I assume from your view point God doesn't control many things so He can become sad, depressed, angry ...

As support I would offer:
John 3.16 God so loved THE WORLD.

The word World is ambiguous. One should use explicit verses to form doctrine. Many examples, I cite one: If WORLD means everyone without exception then “Your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world” (Romans 1:8) would mean that the faith of the saints at Rome was the subject of conversation by every man, woman, and child on the earth. This is obviously untrue. Warning: Your bias may determine what the meaning is. (Granted, I did not prove you wrong; rather, I think I showed you should question the meaning and seek explicit verses.

Acts 10:34-35 God shows no partiality.

I would say God show no partiality because we did not determine things, therefore He is not partial to us (2nd causes).
From a human stand point it is obvious God is partial. I site His chosen (favorite) nation Israel. It's not as if they are special by their own.

1 John 2:2 Jesus is the propitiation for the sins of the whole world.

Re: WORLD ... Same explanation as John 3:16
Besides, if God has been propitiated (win or regain the favor of) for everyone without exception then why send anyone to hell. Also, the verse begins with "AND" referring to verse one where he is addressing "My little children". Children of God are saints and they definitely have been propitiated.

2 Peter 3:9 God wishes that all would come to repentence.

This is the moral will of God, not the sovereign (what He ordains to occur). Example: God wish no one would sin. He has the power to end sin (assumes omnipotent), but He does not do so. He has the power to all come to repentence, but He does not do so. (Aside: there is also an issue with the ambiguity of the word "ALL"; does it mean without exception of without distinction.)

And, yes, God reveals Himself to us...
But we are saved by our faith.
We are saved by grace THROUGH faith....Eph 2:8
The grace is God's part.
The faith is our part....

Well, this is the crux of our disagreement.

Jesus explained that it is up to us, individually, to decide to follow Him.

Luke 9:23
And he said to all, “If anyone would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me.

Why would Jesus say IF as if each person could decide for themselves?

I don't know why. Possibly to show the futility of man's effort. The point is the verse tells one WHAT they must do; not how it is to be performed. You assume you have the power within yourself as it fits your doctrine. I assume that God changes me so I want to obey. The verse doesn't prove either of us right. One must seek more explicit verses.
Aside: I hear where you are coming from. If someone said to a group of student you must get a perfect SAT score IF you are to be accepted to a course you would either think, I am brilliant so I can do it ... or ... I am not brilliant so there is this method will not work for me.

2 Corinthians 5:17
Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come.

By your theology, it would have to say: If anyone is a new creation...he is In Christ.

But no....First we are in Christ and THEN we become a new creation.

Again, you hi light the point of contention but this it not evidence of who is correct.
... and yes, I would say that if anyone is a new creation he is In Christ also .. there is not chronological or logical order in the verse. If any has facial hair he is an adult man .. or ... if anyone is an adult man they can have facial hair. There is not order suggested. (Yeah, I know it is not a perfect analogy ... some women have beards)

Romans 1:19-20 disagrees with you.
God has always made Himself known through His creation.
Even the O.T. tells us to seek God while He may be found.
Jesus tells us to seek God. Matthew 5

I believe you interpret these verses to prove men don't need to hear the gospel to be saved. Very few agree, so I won't bother to comment.

Why is it unjust? Adam represented all mankind. God told him that he would die if he ate.
Adam did not obey. Obedience to God is absolutely necessary.
We are born separated from God.

Agreed. By definition, if God does something it is just. I am just saying that by my distorted view of justice I would not have the grandson pay the debt of the grandfather (for example). This is the way our court run and seems right to me. (His ways are not our ways)

With calvinist theology God is UNJUST because there are no standards, no conditions to which we could
aspire to be saved. He chooses, for whatever reason - which we don't even know - and yet calvin believed this was justice because we are all born lost and no one deserves mercy.

Well, I am waiting for your definition of Agape LOVE, Justice and Mercy before commenting further. I think you define them differently or add conditions.

part 1 of 2

I glad I have no life ... lol

 

[jerry63935]

Why do you say that?

read the post i rest my case reformed has few good things with it,,but the plan of salvation they present.is out in left field

 

[Fastfredy0]

Part 2 of 2

THIS, instead, is what I'd like to address.
This is the whole point....free will.
Do we have it or not?

Again, I need your definition. I need your definition of FREE WILL, AGAPE LOVE, Mercy and Justice

Which verses do YOU believe show that we do not have it?

I need your definition of FREE WILL

I hope you realize that free will is part of
Total Depravity----man can choose.
Unconditional Election---man chooses God.
Limited Atonement----Jesus died for t he sins of the whole world.
Irrisestible grace----We are not forced to accept God's grace.
Perseverance of the saints---We are not forced to persevere.

I didn't realize it. I need your definition. I might think your idea of 'free will' influences how you in regards to TULIP

The above is an interesting concept.
Since, in YOUR theology, God determines EVERYTHING...including sin....
And since it is HE that determines the unsaved....
HOW is it just for Him to hate these in YOUR theology??

He does not create sin, He allows it, He restrains it, He uses it for good.

Re: And since it is HE that determines the unsaved.... this is not exactly correct .... we don't adovate double predestination ... subtle difference ... the unsaved (everyone) determine who is unsaved, God determines whom to have mercy upon.
Re: HOW is it just for Him to hate these in YOUR theology?? Again, I need your definitions of AGAPE LOVE, God's Hate, Mercy, Justice and "free will".

We can only do our best.

Agreed. I hope we get points for trying. (study to show thyself approved)
I hope I get more points than you. *giggles* just poking the bear in fun

I need your definitions to proceed further.

 

[jerry63935]

GOD allows man to accept his invitation

Revelation 22:17​

“And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.”

For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:

 

[for_his_glory]

How can a spiritually dead sinner perform spiritual acts ? Your 1 Jn 1 reference is for believers. Naturally men are dead in trespasses and sins. Eph 2:1,5

And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

5 even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)

A spiritually dead person cannot perform spiritual acts as they have not the indwelling of the Holy Spirit as they are not Spiritually born again from above or indwelled with the Holy Spirit.

Ephesians 2:1-10 the word quickened means to make alive or give life as this is what a quickening spirit does. It's the Spirit of God working in us that causes us to know God as our heavenly Father.

John 20:29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

Of course 1 John 1:1 is speaking about believers, but how does one begin to believe if they have never heard. Look at Thomas, he doubted until Jesus presented Himself before Him in His glorified body even though he walked with Jesus. The disciples only knew Jesus as a prophet/teacher while He was on earth, but never knew of the Spiritual things He was teaching them. It wasn't until the day of Pentecost that they were indwelled with the Holy Spirit that their Spiritual eyes were opened, Acts 2. There were around 3000 added to the church that day. Not a four walled building, but the collected body of Christ.

We were dead in sins until our heart was stirred by the Holy Spirit and we answered God's call to His salvation as we repented first and asked Jesus to be our Lord and Savior.

Act 2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
Act 2:37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
Act 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

 

[for_his_glory]

wondering and Fastfredy0

This is why God created man. It was for His good pleasure that man was to take care of what God created.

Gen 2:5 And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew: for the LORD God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and there was not a man to till the ground.
Gen 2:6 But there went up a mist from the earth, and watered the whole face of the ground.
Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
Gen 2:8 And the LORD God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed.

 

[TibiasDad]

i hope your not saying Jesus said go and hang yourself

No, I am just demonstrating the errant hermeneutical principle that Brightframe52 employs with Luke 15 and 19.

Doug

 

[Fastfredy0]

This is why God created man. It was for His good pleasure that man was to take care of what God created.

I agree that man was created for God's pleasure. As God needs nothing, he did not need man to take care of His creation. God goodness was His motivation to give man this secondary purpose.
Man's purpose is similar to God's: “Man’s chief end is to glorify [‘obey’ per R.C. Sproul] God, and to enjoy him forever.” Westminster Shorter Catechism
God’s pleasure in regards to man is a result of God’s goodness; His giving to man; man’s actions do not bring God pleasure. (It is better to give than receive)

God’s pleasure in his creatures is the joy of the Giver of all good. His aseity and sufficiency teach us that he never receives any good that is not already His. God has pleasure in saving His people by grace, for “he delighteth in mercy” (Micah 7:18). The fact that God is the Giver does not limit his happiness, but reveals that he is the happiest of all, for “it is more blessed to give than to receive” (Acts 20:35).

God’s pleasure in his people is the gladness of his grace to them. God rejoices over his people as he does them good and draws them near to himself. The Lord said of Israel, Jeremiah 32:41 “Yea, I will rejoice over them to do them good, and I will plant them in this land assuredly with my whole heart and with my whole soul,” an anthropomorphic expression for God’s intense concern and absolute commitment. Joel Beeke Reformed Systematic Theology

Glory

• Numbers 14:21 but indeed as I live, all the earth will be filled with the glory of the Lord.
• Psalm 106:8 Nevertheless He saved them for the sake of His name, That He might make His power known.
• Isaiah 43:6-7 "I will say to the north, Give up, and to the south, Keep not back; bring my sons from afar; and my daughters from the ends of the earth, even every one that is called by my name; for I have created him for my glory, I have formed him, yea I have made him."
• Isaiah 48:9 “For the sake of My name I delay My wrath, And for My praise I restrain it for you, In order not to cut you off. 10 “Behold, I have refined you, but not as silver; I have tested you in the furnace of affliction. 11 “For My own sake, for My own sake, I will act; For how can My name be profaned? And My glory I will not give to another.
• Ephesians 1:5 "Having predestinated us to the adoption of children by Jesus Christ, unto himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, to the praise of the glory of his grace
• Philippians 2:11 "That every tongue should confess that Jesus is the Lord, to the glory of God the Father."
• Philippians 10, 11 "That ye may approve things that are excellent, that ye may be sincere, and without offence, till the day of Christ: being filled with the fruits of righteousness, which are by Jesus Christ, unto the glory and praise of God."

Pleasure

• Isaiah 46:9-10 "Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else! I am God, and there is none like Me, declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all My pleasure".
• Ephesians 1:5 "Having predestinated us to the adoption of children by Jesus Christ, unto himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, to the praise of the glory of his grace
• Ephesians 1:9 “Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, [or the secret of His will] according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself” 10 [He planned] for the maturity of the times and the climax of the ages to unify all things and head them up and consummate them in Christ, [both] things in heaven and things on the earth.
• 2 Thessalonians 1:11-12 "Wherefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you worthy of his calling, and fulfil all the good pleasure of his goodness, and the work of faith with power:

 

[JLB]

We cannot know for sure why God created us.
Maybe He just needed more love than the Trinity and love He would get back --- freely. Since only free love is real love. If God determined man to love Him, that is not true love.

We are to love, honor and obey God...beyond that I wouldn't venture since it is speculation.

The bible teaches that God:

God created us for His glory.
Isaiah 43:7 It is Israel that is being spoken of here, but by verse 7 it is speaking to each individual person

God created us to have dominion over the earth and its creatures.
Genesis 1:26.... We were to be a steward of this earth that God created.

We are created for good works.
Ephisians 2:10 We are the hands and feet of God....we are to carry out His plan here....His Kingdom of which God spoke.

God loves us and cares for us.
1 Peter 1:5-7

Or,,,maybe God is just a creator and is creating to this very day.


As far as God creating us for His glory....I find it difficult to serve a God and glorify a God that arbitrarily sends
some of His creation, which the bible tells me He loves, to everlasting punishment through no fault of their own.
What does GLORIFY mean to you anyway?

It means to honor the attributes of God ---
can we honor a God that is not just in His dealings with manking?
Psalm 86:11-17 God's loving kindness.




Of course, I don't agree that God is the cause of all things.

All your theology derives from this....(that God is the creator of all things)
but this theology makes God be the creator of evil when the bible teaches that in Him there is NO EVIL.
This makes God be responsible for everything,,,,even the evil that man do.
What would be your response to this?

McCarthur says there is no answer.
We just have to accept it.
How do you accept two opposing thoughts?
1. God is love.
2. God causes evil.
3. God holds us responsible for it even though HE caused it.


God hated Esau?
Could you support that somehow?

Jesus said we are to hate our father, mother, wife, brothers, sisters. Luke 14:26...
Did Jesus mean this?
He said that if we hate someone, we have already murdered them. Matthew 5:22

Was Jesus contradicting Himself?
Perhaps HATE means something different in Romans 9:13 ??



No more time.
Will finish up later.

Great Post.




JLB

 

[JLB]

Repentance is the fruit of the newbirth. How can a spiritually dead person spiritually repent ?

By the Spirit.

 

[TibiasDad]

Maybe He just needed more love than the Trinity

God needs nothing outside of himself!

Doug

 

[brightfame52]

A spiritually dead person cannot perform spiritual acts as they have not the indwelling of the Holy Spirit as they are not Spiritually born again from above or indwelled with the Holy Spirit.

Ephesians 2:1-10 the word quickened means to make alive or give life as this is what a quickening spirit does. It's the Spirit of God working in us that causes us to know God as our heavenly Father.

John 20:29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

Of course 1 John 1:1 is speaking about believers, but how does one begin to believe if they have never heard. Look at Thomas, he doubted until Jesus presented Himself before Him in His glorified body even though he walked with Jesus. The disciples only knew Jesus as a prophet/teacher while He was on earth, but never knew of the Spiritual things He was teaching them. It wasn't until the day of Pentecost that they were indwelled with the Holy Spirit that their Spiritual eyes were opened, Acts 2. There were around 3000 added to the church that day. Not a four walled building, but the collected body of Christ.

We were dead in sins until our heart was stirred by the Holy Spirit and we answered God's call to His salvation as we repented first and asked Jesus to be our Lord and Savior.

Act 2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
Act 2:37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
Act 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

That is the point. A Spiritually dead person cannot do anything of a Spiritual nature like repentance and believing. You must be born again to do those things Spiritually.

 

[brightfame52]

By the Spirit.

Of course so they must be born again of the Spirit.

 

[JLB]

Of course so they must be born again of the Spirit.

Yes, we are born again of the Spirit, by obeying the Gospel; the truth.

Since you have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit in sincere love of the brethren, love one another fervently with a pure heart, having been born again, not of corruptible seed but incorruptible, through the word of God which lives and abides forever, 1 Peter 1:22-23

• you have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit

JLB

 

[for_his_glory]

That is the point. A Spiritually dead person cannot do anything of a Spiritual nature like repentance and believing. You must be born again to do those things Spiritually.

John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
John 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
John 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

Act 2:37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
Act 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Repenting comes first then the baptism of the Holy Spirit through the Spiritual rebirth.

Mat 3:1 In those days came John the Baptist, preaching in the wilderness of Judaea,
Mat 3:2 And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.
Mat 3:3 For this is he that was spoken of by the prophet Esaias, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.

Repenting is confessing we are sinners needing God's grace as when we repent first this opens the path towards the Spiritual rebirth as we ask for forgiveness, God is quick to forgive and we are then washed in the blood of Christ and start looking for those Spiritual things from above as we are now dead to self and now Spiritually risen with Christ, Colossians 3:1-4.

 

[GodsGrace]

Mornin' to ya.


To add "love" to God (or to add or subtract anything from God) is to contradict His immutability. So that does not seem to be sound reasoning in my opinion. Job 35:7-8

I don't know why you posted Job 35:7-8

I don't know why my saying that MAYBE God created us to love is "adding love" to Him.
God IS love. 1 John 4:8

I think you just missed my point.
God is never changing --- I agree.

I won't take the bait this time. *smiles*

Why is stating that real love is free love "bait"?
If one is married and he forces (somehow) his wife to love him....how is that love?
Would that person be satisfied with that kind of "love"?
No.
Imagine how much more God would be unsatisfied with His creation if He knew He forced them to love Him?
(those that do).

No bait. It's a solid concept.

I've heard some say that God is continuously creating his creation as opposed to it being initiated and continues on it's on power. Maybe Colossians 1:16

Colossians 1:16 seems to be in the past...but I'm not willing to argue this.
As I said, I do believe God is a creator and He is probably always creating.
We can't know for sure.

We "backward" reformed people believe everything created is for God's pleasure and glory.
The 1689 Baptist Confession of Faith: He does not need any creature he has made nor does he derive any glory from them. Instead, he demonstrates his own glory in them, by them, to them, and upon them. He alone is the source of all being, and everything is from him, through him, and to him.

I don't think reformed people are "backward". I know you're just kidding.
But,,,if everything is created for God's pleasure and glory...What kind of a God are we serving?
He creates humans so most of them could go to the enemy, satan, and be with HIM forever?
It seems to me that satan is the enemy of God...why would God GIVE HIM, as a "gift" most of humanity?

Isn't Jesus the propitiation of our soul?
Didn't Jesus BUY US BACK from satan?
Why do you think Jesus died anyway....was it not to release mankind from the grip of satan?

Colossians 2:8-15
8See to it that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deception, according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary principles of the world, rather than according to Christ.
9For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form,
10and in Him you have been made complete, and He is the head over all rule and authority;
11and in Him you were also circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, in the removal of the body of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ;
12having been buried with Him in baptism, in which you were also raised up with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead.
13When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions,
14having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.
15When He had disarmed the rulers and authorities, He made a public display of them, having triumphed over them through Him.

Numerous verses:
Numbers 14:21 but indeed as I live, all the earth will be filled with the glory of the Lord.
Of repentance, Joshua 6:19. "Give, I pray thee, glory to the Lord God of Israel, and make confession unto him."
Isaiah 46:9-10 "Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else! I am God, and there is none like Me, declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all My pleasure".
Isaiah 48:9
Isaiah 49:3 "Thou art my servant Jacob, in whom I will glorified."
Matthew 5:16 "Let your light so shine before men, that others seeing your good works, may glorify your Father which is in heaven."
John 17:1 "Father, the hour is come, glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee." As this is his first request, we may suppose it to be his supreme request and desire, and what he ultimately aimed at in all.
John 17:10 "And all mine are thine, and thine are mine, and I am glorified in them."
Romans 11:36 "For of Him, and through Him, and to Him, are all things: to whom be glory forever. Amen"
Of reason. Ephesians 1:5 "Having predestinated us to the adoption of children by Jesus Christ, unto himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, to the praise of the glory of his grace
Of reason. Ephesians 1:9 “Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, [or the secret of His will] according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself” 10 [He planned] for the maturity of the times and the climax of the ages to unify all things and head them up and consummate them in Christ, [both] things in heaven and things on the earth. 11 In Him we also were made [God’s] heritage (portion) and we obtained an inheritance; for we had been foreordained (chosen and appointed beforehand) in accordance with His purpose, Who works out everything in agreement with the counsel and design of His [own] will,
Ephesians 3:10-11
Colossians 1:16 "For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers; all things were created by him, and for him."
Every thing done for God’s own sake: Joshua 7:9; 1 Samuel 12:22; Psalm 25:11; 31:3; 79:9; 106:8; 109:21; 143:11; Proverbs 16:4; Isaiah 48:9; Jerimiah 14:7a; Jerimiah 14:21; Ezekiel 20:9, 14,22,44; Daniel 9:19

Hospes had a good thread a few years back. It was about the glory of God and what it means.
It would be good to have this thread renewed.

Of course all of the above are true.
It would be interesting to go through Ephesians 1:5 if you feel like it.

Ephesians 1:5
5He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will,

God predestined us.
But what did He predestine?
Our salvation? No.
He predestined that we would become sons THROUGH JESUS,,,,this is the kind intention of His will.
Genesis 3:15
15And I will put enmity
Between you and the woman,
And between your seed and her seed;
He shall bruise you on the head,
And you shall bruise him on the heel.”

I can find nowhere in scripture that states God predestined certain men to salvation.

God is not a respecter of persons.
Romans 2:11
Acts 10:34

I find only that God wishes to save all.
1 Timothy 2:4

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[GodsGrace]

Fastfredy0

part 2 of 2

Good question. I had to rely on others work to come to an answer that seemed right to me. (Holiness also is mentioned in the bible, but hard to put finger on without significant study by others) ... I sometimes wish God wrote the bible with a dictionary ... preferably in English ... *smiles*

Definition
Glory in one sense of the word glory simply means “honor” or “excellent reputation of all His attributes” (Isaiah 43:7 Whom I created for my glory, John 17:5 the glory which I had with you before the world was made). In another sense, God’s glory means the created bright light that surrounds God’s presence (Psalm 104:1-2 O LORD may God, you are the very great? You are clothed with honor and majesty, you who cover yourself with light as with a garment.) God’s glory is the created brightness that surrounds God’s revelation of himself (Psalm 104:2; Revelation 21:23)

The Bible often substitutes the word “glory” for a specific attribute of God, the attribute intended having then to be determined from the context.
Example:

• Isaiah 6:3 The seraphs’ antiphonal cry, “Holy, holy, holy is the LORD Almighty; the whole earth is full of his glory,” probably intends to declare that God’s majestic holiness is present and manifest throughout the whole earth.
• Romans 3:23 In the sentence “All sinned and are falling short of the glory of God,” the word “glory” refers particularly to God’s righteousness.

Good on the above...
I also like:

1. high renown or honour won by notable achievements.
   "to fight and die for the glory of one's nation"
   
   Sinonimi:
   renown
   
   fame
   
   prestige
   
   honour
   
   distinction
   
   kudos
   
   eminence
   
   pre-eminence
   
   acclaim
   
   acclamation
   
   celebrity
   
   praise
   
   accolades
   
   laurels
   
   recognition
   
   note
   
   notability
   
   credit
   
   repute
   
   reputation
   
   name
   
   illustriousness
   
   lustre
   
   bouquets
   
   laudation
   
   
   2.
   magnificence or great beauty.
   
   
   The above is from the google dictionary, but it adds to what you've written.
   

Define Just, Define Agape Love, Define Mercy (please supply a source that agrees with your definitions) ... seems we are talking past each other when referring to these terms
My definitions:
Agape Love: The essence of agape love is goodwill, benevolence, and willful delight in the object of love. It is distinguished from the other types of love by its lofty moral nature and strong character. https://www.gotquestions.org/agape-love.html
Justice and Mercy: God’s justice and mercy are seemingly incompatible. After all, justice involves the dispensing of deserved punishment for wrongdoing, and mercy is all about pardon and compassion for an offender. https://www.gotquestions.org/mercy-justice.html

Agape love is the love we demonstrate toward God, or the love from God. A Godly love.

Here is a definition I like from Christianity.com
“Agape” is one of several Greek words for love. When the word “agape” is used in the Bible, it refers to a pure, willful, sacrificial love that intentionally desires another’s highest good."

source: https://www.christianity.com/wiki/christian-terms/what-does-agape-love-really-mean-in-the-bible.html


I don't agree with your definition of Justice and Mercy. They are not incompatible.
Justice only means giving a person what he deserves. It could be something good...an award. It does not have to be only punishment.

Mercy means to have compassion on someone --- when what they justly deserve would be punishment,
it also means to treat another person in an ethical manner.

The reason you believe we're speaking past each other is because I cannot accept a God as being
JUST UNLESS He gives to everyone the same opportunity to be saved.

Again,,,could y ou show me some scripture that supports the idea that God only picks who HE feels should be saved BASED ON NOTHING AT ALL.....?

Give an example of something that exists that God did not create please. This would validate your assertion. What is the cause of this thing (or is it eternal and therefore without cause)?
Aside: I only know of one thing you might say, and it is not a thing... but let's see what you put forward.

My assertion was that GOD IS NOT THE CAUSE of all things.
I DID NOT mention creations.
Everything is created by God.

God did not CAUSE everything that happens to happen.
This is where free will again comes into the discussion - which, actually, should be relegated only to free will, this discussion, I mean.

Fascinating question. Happy to answer this on the condition you answer the following question first: Where did evil come from ???

You believe God created evil. Or at least you do if you're an honest calvinist.

I say we cannot know where evil comes from.
This is the most asked question in Christiandom that has no answer.
If God is all-good and all-powerful; why does evil exist?

Dualism doesn't work or God would not be sovereign and almighty.
If God is all-good, He cannot have created evil and the bible supports this.

For honest calvinists, the answer is simple.

You've come to an invalid conclusion due to a false premise. I will explain when you answer the question: Where did evil come from ??? (or admit your theology can not come up with an answer ... I'll give you a way out ... *smiles*)

No way out necessary.
Because we do not have an answer FROM THE BIBLE....
we cannot just make one up to suit our needs.

What do you believe my false conclusion is?
That God IS NOT the creator of evil?

I challenge you to find a quote where MacArthur propagates #2 and #3. IMO you found something he said and wrongly think it implies #2 and #3. But, prove me wrong. Find one place where MacArthur states #2 or #3.


Malachi 1:3; Romans 9:13


Put forward your definition of Hate ....and of Agape Love, Mercy and Justice (preferably with a source that agrees). Hopefully you will say Hate means "Loves Less", which definition I am fairly comfortable to accept (though not what I would put forward as my definition) as it is my contention that God does not love all people the same.
Perhaps "God hates sin, but loves the sinner" to try to explain God loving those that are evil?

Always interesting ... thx for your patience and thoughtful demeanor.

Yes, I'd say that in Romans 9, the word hate means to love less.
Let's not discuss God loving all people the same anymore----



As to McCarther...I DO believe it was him. Sproul seemed to soften everything up a bit.
I'll check when I have time