The Value of Evangelism in Reformed Theology

[brightfame52]

Let me ask you this, how did you personally become Spiritually alive?

I dont discuss myself ! Lets keep this about what the scripture says. And it says men are by nature, dead in sin, without spiritual life.

 

[brightfame52]

God only chooses those who will come to Him. God did not predestine the man (which individuals would be saved & lost), He predestined the plan (how men would be saved) - read again Acts 10:34-35; Eph. 1:3-12; Rom. 8:28-30; 10:9-17.

​

That what you stated didn't sound scriptural. None of those verses you quote collaborate what you stated.

 

[GodsGrace]

Ordain = an outline of all events controlled by God (order or decree)
The divine decree is the eternal and sovereign purpose of the triune God, based upon his will alone according to his incomprehensible wisdom and goodness, that determines all persons, things, events, and relationships outside of himself for his manifest glory in Jesus Christ. Joel Beeke Reformed Systematic Theology
Keeping in mind that both of us don't know where evil comes from ... God knows it will comes and plan for it to come and plan what it will do or how it will be restrained.

Cause = The 'thing' which is the precursor to an effect. Every effect has a cause. God does not CAUSE evil, he does plan for it to happen.
Aside: Perhaps you conception of evil is different than mind. Consider:
Evil is nothing. It is not a thing that has existence. It is an action of something that is a thing. When I do something that is not good, then I am doing something that is evil, but evil then is an activity of some being. It has no being of itself.
I will send you the rest in a CONVERSATION. Don't wish to bore people. You don't have to read it.

I read it.
If all events are controlled by God, as you've explained above.
Then God causes all to happen.
If , as you've stated, God plans for evil to happen...then God causes evil to happen.

Evil is real. Satan is the personification of evil.

When you do something that is not good....you are neutral.
When you do something to cause harm...this is evil.

When you become Christian you not only have to stop doing evil...
THAT is neutrality....
You must begin to do good.

Job 34:10-12
10“Therefore, listen to me, you men of understanding.
Far be it from God to do wickedness,
And from the Almighty to do wrong.

11“For He pays a man according to his work,
And makes him find it according to his way.

12“Surely, God will not act wickedly,
And the Almighty will not pervert justice.


Luke 4:33
33In the synagogue there was a man possessed by the spirit of an unclean demon, and he cried out with a loud voice,

Luke 4:39
39and a spirit seizes him, and he suddenly screams, and it throws him into a convulsion with foaming at the mouth; and only with difficulty does it leave him, mauling him as it leaves.

Ephesians 6:12
12For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the powers, against the world forces of this darkness, against the spiritual forces of wickedness in the heavenly places.

Well, we disagreed on whether or not God determines everything. You are a dualist in this matter as you believe man and God determine things... I guess you believe Satan also determines outcomes too.

You use the word DUALIST incorrectly.

DUALIST means that one believes in a good god and a bad god. Two gods of equal power.

What you mean is synergist and the opposite is monergist.
Yes, I am synergist --- It takes two.
God reveals Himself,
I accept Him.
He saves me.
I do the good works He calls on me to do.

God has emotions ..... I would say God has emotions but is not emotional. I would say God lacks many emotions man has (He is never surprised, He is never angry (yeah, bible says He is ... I would argue this is a Anthropomorphism (I wish I could spell that ... lol) To say God is emotional is to say He is not immutable ... it is to say sometimes he's happy sometimes He is not. So, I would say he has emotion but not emotional.

God showing emotion does NOT mean he changes.
A change in God is referring to a MORAL CHANGE.
God cannot change morally....He is faithful to Himself and His attributes.
Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights with whom there is no variation or shadow due to change.

2 Timothy 2:13 God is faithful to Himself
James 1:17
Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights with whom there is no variation or shadow due to change.
part 1 of 2

 

[GodsGrace]

Fastfredy0

part 2 of 2

Re: Jesus wept ... this has to due with the hypostatic union. This is Christ's human nature, not his divine nature.
Clearer example: God knows everything. Christ did not know the timing of his return. Conclusion: Christ is not God ... or Christ has two natures; the divine nature knows when Christ returns, the human nature does not. (same thing with verse saying something about the boy Christ growing in knowledge and wisdom or something like that).

I gave you many verses...not just the one about Jesus crying.
Which, BTW, if calvinism is right, it shows that Jesus is a foolish person/God.
Did God the Father forget to advise Him that HE, GOD FATHER, determines everything and that HE also determined
Jerusalem would not be willing to go to Jesus?

I would God does not hate. The verse is an Anthropomorphism.
Strictly speaking, wrath [hate] is not an attribute of God’s nature, but is his “holy justice against sin”. Joel Beeke Reformed Systematic Theology
If he doth whatsoever he pleaseth, nothing can make him miserable, since misery consists in those things which happen against our will. Stephen Charnock
Strictly speaking, wrath [hate] is not an attribute of God. It would be more appropriate to say that the wrath of God is the manifestation of the holiness of God in the context of sinfulness of man. So, within the trinitarian fellowship that holiness is expressed amongst the members of the trinity but not wrath. Sinclair Ferguson
In the Bible, hatred is not an emotion primarily, but rather a covenant action to disfavor. Gotquestions.org

Job 35:7 “If you are righteous, what do you give God, Or what does He receive from your hand? 8 “Your wickedness affects only a man such as you, And your righteousness affects only a son of man [but it cannot affect God, who is sovereign]”

Same answer as "hate".

If by 'jealous you mean "feeling or showing envy of someone or their achievements and advantages", I don't agree.

Do you trust the bible or do you trust Ferguson, Chamok, etc??

I trust what the bible tells me. If it states that God gets mad...I believe it.
If it tells me that God is a jealous God...I believe it.

And, again, do YOU believe God could be jealous of someone's achievment?
Come on FF.
Make believe we both know what kind of jealous the bible speaks of in relation to God.

The word world may mean what you think it means and it may mean other things as I pointed out. Again, one must use explicit verses to validate the meaning of implicit words like: ALL, EVERYONE, ANYONE, WORLD.
You agree that WORLD has different meanings, but you have not used other verses to validate your conclusion of John 3:16.
That being said. Let's assume WORLD means everyone without exception.

When did I say that WORLD means everyone without exception in every verse?
In the verse of John 3:16 it means that God loved His creation (us), as I've stated many times.

The verse simple says whoever believes will have ever lasting life. There is nothing in the verse telling us why one believes. I say because God caused us to believe and you say your 'free will' (which you have yet to define) caused us to believe.
So the verse, if expounded upon by the writer, could be:
My way:
For God so loved the world that he gave his only son that whosoever believed [due to God causing him to believe] will not perish ....
Your way:
For God so love the world that he gave his only son that whosoever believed [as a result of their "free will"] will not perish ....
You must seek the answer to the question of the cause of your faith elsewhere than John 3:16 IMO

Sure. I understand the two different ways.
John 3:18 continues with how I, and every other denomination that is not calvinistic, understands John 3:16
So show me some verses that show that it's due to GOD CAUSING HIM TO BELIEVE....
WHERE in the bible does it state that God chooses who will be saved and causes them to be saved...

And perhaps YOU would like to explain your type of free will?
Which is not free BTW.

This is factually incorrect if by everywhere you mean every people on the planet. This is why I caution against the biased interpretation of WORLD, ALL, EVERYWHERE, EVERYONE, ANYONE. (Maybe we have a semantic issue)

Oh for goodness sake FF
Matthew 28:19
19“Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit,

which confirms what I had posted:
Romans 1:8
8First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, because your faith is being proclaimed throughout the whole world.

What does ALL THE NATIONS and THROUGHOUT THE WHOLE WORLD
mean to YOU??

I think this was either misread by you are I didn't write comprehensively. The "AND" was in connection with 1 John 2:2 I believe and not John 3:16. Somewhere you, me or us muddled it up. Let's say it was me.

Already caught and handled.

Well, that is your interpretation or "everyone" and as I mentioned... if that be true His for the most part was in vain.

I did not bring up the verse to promote universalism. I used the verse to demonstrate that the meaning of "ALL" does not necessarily means "everyone without exception" for if it did then we would have a verse promoting universalism which is contrary to both our views.

My point, which you miss, is that Jesus died for EVERYONE.....
Yes. Everyone that wants to take advantage of his atoning sacrifice.

LOL .. I think you are right .. my bad.

Already handled.

Oh geez, there's a Part 2.
You may wear me down so that I become an Arminian due to exhaustion.
(Just teasing ... I admire your defense of your beliefs

I plan to wear you down until you become logical.
Calvinism is not logical.
*******************
God is good.
But God is evil-causing
But He is not causing evil..
but He does create everything and
predestine everything. But evil is not part of it.
But we have some type of free well...
etc.
?????????????

 

[for_his_glory]

You putting the cart before the horse. A spiritually dead person has no spiritual life, Faith is a Spiritual grace. Once a person is made alive first, given Spiritual life, then he can have faith.

How is one made alive first without having faith first? God's grace is through faith, which is Christ Jesus in whom is our faith that all who will first believe in Him will have eternal life.

Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Joh 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

 

[Fastfredy0]

And just because one uses the word does not cause circular logic...I gave enough meaning.

You cannot define a word by using that word. Example: Love is love. That's begs the question.

Do you think I think God has to sacrifice something to show love?

I don't know what you think. I asked for a definition of love and you responded with:
Agape” is one of several Greek words for love. When the word “agape” is used in the Bible, it refers to a pure, willful, sacrificial love that intentionally desires another’s highest good."

Then I asked why love had to be sacrificial and now you seem to say it does not. If Love does not have to be "sacrificial", why did you use it in your definition. I seek clarification. What do you mean by agape love must be PURE. Does that means a holy God cannot love that which is unholy?

Could we stop with the English lessons?

English, words, a dictionary, scripture are necessary tools for communication.

God is compassionate...God is merciful
THIS is all we should be discussing ...

You said "MERCY" means: to have compassion on someone
You gave a definition that is not in the dictionary. Compassion is not necessarily part of MERCY. I can hate someone and yet have MERCY. We are a problem because the words you are using are being misused IMO.
You said:
AGAPE LOVE must be "sacrificial"
MERCY means compassion
You won't define "FREE WILL". Hospes also asked you to define it and then, your answer lead him to ask for further explanation as it was unclear.
This is making communication difficult.

Justice:
That WHOEVER believes in the Son will be saved. John 3:16

John 3:16 is not an example of Justice. It is an example of mercy. How is God saving something due to faith defined as Justice? Are you saying YOU DESERVE TO BE SAVED, that you earned it by having faith.
Your definition of justice is: giving a person what he deserves

The baby has not had the opportunity to come to believe and have faith in God.
God is just.
Everyone has the same opportunity to be saved. Romans 1:19-20

This is untrue. A baby has a 100% chance to be saved. An adult does not. This is clearly not the "same opportunity".
Please find any commentator that believes people that have not heard the gospel can be saved.
1 Peter 1:20 Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture comes from one’s own interpretation.

That reminds me ... Please find a quotation where MacArthur said "God creates evil" that you use to attribute this spurious idea to Calvinists. I've challenged you several times and have not heard a reply. Do you wish to withdraw the accusation?

Evangelism has a very effective role due to my theological belief.
Faith comes by HEARING.... Acts 10:42

This is not your entire belief. You believe one does not need to hear the gospel to be saved in which case evangelism is of questionable use. In point of fact, if people can be saved without hearing the gospel the consequences of your version of evangelism could be detrimental given the possibility that a higher percentage of those that may not have heard the gospel are saved than have heard the gospel. Effectively you have two gospels salvation:

1. Faith in Christ's death and resurrection
2. Some sort of belief that, if a person believes in a higher power and he is being a good person (something like that) .. he can be saved

This is contrary to Paul: Galatians 1:8

Your definition Libertians Free Will make evangelism of little use. You said I could use any definition of Libertians Free Will so I use the one on Gotquestions.org ... Libertarian free will is basically the concept that, metaphysically and morally, man is an autonomous being, one who operates independently, not controlled by others or by outside forces.

This being your definition, evangelism is useless from the hearers' point of view as that person one who operates independently, not controlled by others or by outside forces. Evangelism is by definition "an outside force".

In Calvinism, God picks and chooses those that will be saved based on NOTHING AT ALL.
If YOU know on what God bases His choice...please state it.

The first statement is spurious. Again I challenge you to find any Reformed theologian that propagates this falsehood. You've ignored similar challenges when you have assigned false doctrine to those that are reformed.
I don't know why God picks "A" or "B". Read Romans 9:14-24 for your answer when Paul speaks on the issue.
Aside: Possibly a part of God's main purpose: His glory and His pleasure.

If we are to be saved, we MUST know HOW since God is a just God and gives to everyone
that ACCEPTS HIS CONDITIONS to be saved.

This is an empirically false statement. Those who have not heard the gospel don't "know HOW". As your premise is false, any conclusion based on that premise has no support in your argument.
Aside: God defines justice, not you or I. Your propose a holy God loves that which is unholy. (Example: sons of Satan doomed to hell) and using spurious thought, build a false theological system IMO. (Naturally, you think my system is faulty too.)

You want an example of something God did not cause?
He did not cause Columbine...or anything else like that because that was a very dark event.

Again, you only partially answered the question. The question: Give me an example of something God did not cause ... and then tell me what was the cause.
You did not give the cause of Columbine ... so your answer was partially unresponsive.
... and so it is with Libertarian Free Will .. there is no cause as there is no such thing in reality ... or perhaps you can tell me the ontological cause of Libertarian Free Will (where did you get it from?)

Calvinists have a difficult time understanding free will.
Those of us that have free will understand it very well.

Interesting, you understand it very well but when repeatedly asked for a definition and clarification you refused to give it. This is fundamental to your theology and yet you won't define it ... an interesting evasion.

See everywhere Jesus states that IF WE WILL something...
Jesus seems to understand what free will is...He gives US the choice of obeying Him or not.

Yes, he gives us a choice. But NO ONE SEEKS GOD. So no one takes God up on His offer unless God first regenerates him. John 1:12-13 clearly states no one comes to God on their own as it is outside the will of man. Ephesians 2:8-9 state the source of faith is God.

How about quoting scripture instead of the Baptist Confession of Faith or the Westminster Confession of Faith.

You were making comment about REFORMED doctrines. When it comes to the beliefs of the REFORMED denomination the Confession is authoritative; not scripture. So when answering questions about REFORMED doctrine one goes to a confession or reformed theologian. Analogy: I want to fix my flat tire. I don't go to scripture, I go to a document that is an authority for the question at hand. Now, if you want to know what God the best source is scripture and this is a REFORMED doctrine.

A confession of faith could state that God did not create sin, or evil..
BUT
IF God determined everything from the beginning of time...
then EVERYTHING includes sin and evil.

You clearly don't understand the nature of evil. It is not a thing and not created. Even God cannot create something that is nothing.

Thus, I understand calvinism very well and do not agree with it.

Your numerous statements show you do not understand Calvinism well. When you are confronted with the REFORMED confession that clearly states "God is author of evil" you disregard the clear statement and say REFORMED doctrine doesn't believe what it says it believes. *twilight zone*

Part 1 of 2

 

[brightfame52]

That what you stated didn't sound scriptural. None of those verses you quote collaborate what you stated.

How is one made alive first without having faith first? God's grace is through faith, which is Christ Jesus in whom is our faith that all who will first believe in Him will have eternal life.

Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Joh 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

One is made alive by the Spirit quickening him or her, then they can have faith, faith is the fruit of the Spirit Gal 5 22

 

[Fastfredy0]

Part 2 of 2 (darn 10,000 character thing)

Wondering: I don't know about semi-pelagianism.

That's what you are in regards to salvation. You believe God does not control (ordain) who will and who will not be saved. This is a form of dualism. Maybe you don't believe God is using you for good works, that you do it or most of it or some of it, independent of God .. semi-pelagianism.

Semi- Pelagianism is a misnomer for a Christian theological and soteriological school of thought on salvation. Semipelagian thought stands in contrast to the earlier Pelagian teaching about salvation, the Pelagianism (in which

people achieve their own salvation by their own means), which had been dismissed as heresy. definition from Yahoo



Aside: One advantage of your belief system is that it is not organized so it is not easily understood, whereas REFORMED doctrine is more easily defined via Confessions.





Wondering: No. In MY thological belief God ALLOWS evil.

In calvinist belief God CREATED AND DECREES AND DETERMINES evil.

Again, you clearly don't know reformed doctrine in this area and when shown in the REFORMED confession that you are wrong you don't except it ... and when challenged to show proof that John MacArthur says "God creates evil" you refuse to do so.





Wondering: No more defining free will.

Yeah, it's not solid ground to take so best not to define it.

I, on the other hand, do not back down from the challenge. I define "free will" as a person will always do what he desires most at the time. Simple, accurate. Your sin nature will always desire to not be saved (No one seeks God ... John 1:13 who were born, not of blood [natural conception], nor of the will of the flesh [physical impulse], nor of the will of man [that of a natural father], but of God [that is, a divine and supernatural birth—they are born of God—spiritually transformed, renewed, sanctified].

Libertarian Free Will is a will of indifference. It is irrational. Should I go left or right. Who cares, I decide from indifference. I may go left, I may go right, I may just go no where, I may go back from whence I came.

Definition: Libertarian free will operates independently, not controlled by others or by outside forces. According to this view, a person who freely made a particular choice could have chosen differently, even if nothing about the past prior to the moment of choice had been different (gotquestions.org)

Today I am a Christian, as for tomorrow, who knows .. I am free to do this or that. I control my destiny. If I do the righteous work of faith I will be saved if I believe it today. If I change my mind, tomorrow I won't be saved from this imaginary place called heaven. I am FREE to decide or, I am FREE to not decide ... nothing influences me save me and since I am born an empty slate, an empty slate will determine my destiny.





Wondering: God loves all His creation....but not all will be His beloved Sons.

IF God loves all His creation then God loves Satan .... interesting statement. Do you wish to reconsider? If you do reconsider it seems you should consider why God does not love Satan and think of whether that reason applies to the sons of Satan. Using your definition of love and the above statement we get:

Premise 1: "God loves all His creation"

Premise 2: love is defined as intentionally desires another’s highest good.

Conclusion: God intentionally desires the highest good for Satan



I prefer a idea of a father that will save 100% of the time as opposed to a father that set conditions on whether he will save me. ....

Example:
Son: Help dad, I am drowning.
Father: Answer this skill testing question and I will.
Son: You mean I have to work for it? Don't you love me?
Father: Yes, I love you... answer the question.


God cannot be holy and love that which is unholy. Remember, your definition of love is "intentionally desires another’s highest good".


Interesting as always. Getting close to your bedtime.

 

[Fastfredy0]

God only chooses those who will come to Him. God did not predestine the man (which individuals would be saved & lost), He predestined the plan (how men would be saved) - read again Acts 10:34-35; Eph. 1:3-12; Rom. 8:28-30; 10:9-17.

Acts 10:34-35 .. this refers to Peter and Cornelius ... Peter did not think the Gentiles were in God's plan of salvation and then he 'see the light' so to speak and comes to the conclusion that God salvation is for the Gentiles also.

Ephesians 1:11 In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will [salvation, while occurring in the temporal order, is a result of a pre-temporal choice of the Father] [Such a statement could not be made in truthfulness if the execution of His purpose depended upon a cooperation with others which was in their power to withhold.]

Romans 8:28 And we know that for those who love God all things [divine undertakings-divine foreknowledge, divine predestination, divine calling, divine justification and glorification] work together for good, for those who are called [effectual call] according to his purpose [God’s purpose CANNOT be thwarted]. 29 For those whom he foreknew [foreknown in the Bible always refers to a person/people and NOT the actions of a man/people] he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30 And those whom he predestined he also called [an efficacious call that cannot be rejected], and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

Romans 10:9-17
The verses do not address the question at hand ... whether God selects the individual or the individual does the work of righteousness to believe on his own.

My turn
Theis: God did predestine/chose which individuals would come to him and predestined the plan. Read again.

Ephesians 1:11 In Him also we have [received an inheritance [a destiny—we were claimed by God as His own], having been predestined (chosen, appointed beforehand) according to the purpose of Him who works everything in agreement with the counsel and design of His will, (Note: it doesn't say according to His will and our will; just His will)

John 1:13 who were born, not of blood [natural conception], nor of the will of the flesh [physical impulse], nor of the will of man [that of a natural father], but of God [that is, a divine and supernatural birth—they are born of God—spiritually transformed, renewed, sanctified].

John 6:29 Jesus answered, “This is the work of God: that you believe [adhere to, trust in, rely on, and have faith] in the One whom He has sent.” Clearly this verse defines faith as a work. Thus faith must originate from God since God’s grace does not include man works (Galatians 5:2).

Romans 12:3b as God has apportioned to each a degree of faith [and a purpose designed for service]. Note: It is God doing the apportioning

1 Corinthians 2:5 So that your faith might not rest in the wisdom of men (human philosophy), but in the power of God.

1 Corinthians 12:3b And no one can [really] say, Jesus is [my] Lord, except by and under the power and influence of the Holy Spirit. [The confession of the Lordship of Christ in saving faith is a gift of the Holy Spirit. Tom Constable: no one would sincerely acknowledge that Jesus is Lord, Savior and or Sovereign, unless the Holy Spirit had some influence over him or her

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this [referring to salvation through faith] is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works (not founded upon anything in the believer himself), so that no one may boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

“And this is not your own doing.” The word “this” must have an antecedent, which would normally be the closest preceding noun. In this case, “this” would refer back to “faith.” Paul is not saying that grace is not our own doing. That would be redundant, because if it were our own doing, it would not be gracious at all. Rather, he says that faith is not our own doing. That does not mean that faith is not found in us; it is found in us. It does not mean that it is someone else’s faith by which we are justified. It is, properly speaking, our faith, for we are the ones who have it, the ones who are exercising it. But it is not our own doing, meaning that we are not the origin of it. It is not something that we have generated by our own power, nor does it originate in our flesh. R.C. Sproul Truths We Confess

Furthermore, if synergism is embraced, then there is the very real but subtle danger that men could boast that they made use of God's grace or had more wisdom than the man who rejected Christ. They could boast that they are different for, unlike others, they responded to Christ. The autonomous natural man would, then, ultimately determine His own salvation, not God. Since a work is a purpose achieved by physical or mental exertion. To believe is a difficult task; the Bible says it is foolishness to the unsaved and no one seeks God. Finally, the context of the verse (2:1-10) forbids the idea that man has any positive role in his own salvation. The verses include expressions like, "by grace you have been saved," "this not from yourselves," "it is the gift of God," "not by works," "so that no one can boast," "we are God's work," "created in Christ Jesus to do good works," "which God prepared in advance for us to do."

This is the short list

 

[GodsGrace]

Yes, I read your responses and understood why he needed clarification.


O.K. .... I asked gotquestions.org:
Libertarian free will is basically the concept that, metaphysically and morally, man is an autonomous being, one who operates independently, not controlled by others or by outside forces. According to this view, a person who freely made a particular choice could have chosen differently, even if nothing about the past prior to the moment of choice had been different.” In the libertarian free will paradigm, the power of contrary choice reigns supreme. Without this ability to choose otherwise, libertarian free will proponents will claim that man cannot be held morally responsible for his actions.

You asked GotQuestions.
A calvinistic site.
However, the explanation is good.
I wonder what I stated differently? But it matters not.

So basically, Libertarian Free Will denies scripture where it explicitly talks about man's inability to chose God.

• Romans 3:11 No one understands [divine things]; no one seeks for God.
• 1 Corinthians 2:14 The natural [unregenerate] person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God [regeneration comes from the Spirit of God], for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually [the Holy Spirit] discerned.
• John 3:20 For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light
• Romans 7:18 For I know that nothing good dwells within me, that is, in my flesh. I can will what is right, but I cannot perform it.
• Romans 8:7 For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot.

Man is not unable to choose God. That is just what you've been taught.
Here are your replies. You never explain my verses BTW.
Romans 3:11 No one seeks God.
Amos 5:4-6 Seek me that you may live
Matthew 6:33 Jesus said: Seek first the Kingdom of God....
Proverbs 8:17 Those who diligently seek Me...find me
Jeremiah 29:13 You will seek Me and find me
Deuteronomy 4:29 From there you will seek the Lord and find him.
Matthew 7:7-8 Seek and you will find..ask and it will be openedù

1 Corinthians 2:14 The natural person does not accept the things of God.
No verses necessary...this is true, to the unsaved it is all foolishness. BECAUSE they are spiritually appraised.

John 3:20 For everyone practicing evil hates the light.
John 3:21 But he who practices truth comes to the light.

Romans 7:18 For I know that nothing good dwells in me,,,that is in my flesh...
Romans 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and death.

Again, find me any quote by a reformed theologian to valid this false claim. You said John MacArthur claims God causes evil ... I say you made a false claim. PROVE IT!
I quoted a Reformed confession (the most authoritative source possible of Reform doctrine) for you stating the GOD IS NOT THE AUTHOR OF SIN, yet you won't stop stating this slander.

I go by what the bible says FF.
The bible teaches that God does not create evil.
Calvinist catechism books teach this.
Again:
If God predestines everything, then He is - by definition - also predestinating evil acts and
everything that man does.

Again, you don't understand reform doctrine in this area either. I grant that this is easily misunderstood.
I refer you to https://r.search.yahoo.com/_ylt=AwrC3TRjYdVfr0AA2hIPxQt.;_ylu=Y29sbwNiZjEEcG9zAzIEdnRpZAMEc2VjA3Ny/RV=2/RE=1607848419/RO=10/RU=https://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/sdg/Double-Predestination.pdf/RK=2/RS=wMn7MFVXq5bvjPmy17HUgnYNihA-
to read about "The Double-Predestination Distortion" by R.C. Sproul

It is one thing to disagree with another thoughts, it is quite another to misrepresent them repeatedly.

I don't need to read about double predestination FF.
Any way you wish to explain it....
If God predestines some to heaven...
He has predestined the rest to hell.
It clearly states this in the link you posted.
Here it is:

The distortion of double predestination looks like this: There is a symmetry that exists between election and reprobation. God WORKS in the same way and same manner with respect to the elect and to the reprobate. That is to say, from all eternity God decreed some to election and by divine initiative works faith in their hearts and brings them actively to salvation. By the same token, from all eternity God decrees some to sin and damnation (destinare ad peccatum) and actively intervenes to work sin in their lives, bringing them to damnation by divine initiative.

source: https://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/sdg/Double-Predestination.pdf

I have. You are misinformed or not able to comprehend. I understand how one could be confused. Read the article.

Perhaps YOU are unable to comprehend that if God picks who will go to heaven.
He also picks who will go to hell.
Easy.

 

[JLB]

I'm aware of what man consist of, nothing new there. However man by nature is dead spiritually in trespasses and sin Eph 2:1,5!

Not relevant in my opinion. Man by nature is spiritually dead in sin Eph 2:1,5

The truth of the fact that man has a spirit and without a spirit a man’s body is dead, plainly tells us that there is a life force within man’s spirit.

This truth must be reconciled not ignored.


Do you believe a 5 year child will go to hell when he dies if he is not born again?


Is a 5 year old capable of comprehending the Gospel?



JLB

 

[Fastfredy0]

If all events are controlled by God, as you've explained above.
Then God causes all to happen.
If , as you've stated, God plans for evil to happen...then God causes evil to happen.

Same old chestnut. I've explained it numerous times. I will keep it simple.
Evil is evil and good is good and evil is never good; yet it is good the evil exists otherwise God would never have allowed it.
...or I will state that you either believe:

1. God is not all powerful because of the existence of evil OR
2. He created evil.

Using your understanding of evil, which choice do you wish to make (probably you won't answer)

Evil is real. Satan is the personification of evil.

Agreed. I said 'evil' is not a thing. What's your point?

When you do something that is not good....you are neutral.
When you do something to cause harm...this is evil.

First statement is false. Example: I slap the policeman. This is NOT GOOD, yet it is not neutral.
When you do something contrary to God moral will, it is evil.

When you become Christian you not only have to stop doing evil...
THAT is neutrality....
You must begin to do good.

So sleeping, which I assume is neutral, is not allowed?
Aside: I am depending on the imputed righteousness of God to "be good".
Augustine: “But I commend not the works of my hands, for I fear that when thou examinest them thou wilt find more faults than merits. This only I say and desire, despise not the works of thy hands. See in me thy work, not mine. If thou sees mine, thou condemnest; if thou sees thine own, thou crownest. Whatever good works I have are of thee".

You use the word DUALIST incorrectly.

DUALIST means that one believes in a good god and a bad god. Two gods of equal power.

Well, that is an example of dualism. The dictionary says:
the state of being dual or consisting of two parts; division into two.
https://www.dictionary.com/browse/dualism
So, salvation from your point of view consists of two part (synergism): What God did and what you have to do to be saved. We can use a different word; fine with me.

I do the good works He calls on me to do.

... whereas I say I do good works by the power of God. John 15:5 ; 1 Corinthians 4:7 ; Ephesians 2:10 ...

God showing emotion does NOT mean he changes.

I said God has emotion but is not emotional. If God is happy one minute and not the next then He has changed and this contradicts His immutability.

A change in God is referring to a MORAL CHANGE.
God cannot change morally....He is faithful to Himself and His attributes.

Are you saying God can change in other ways?

Oh, good ... not over 10,000 characters

 

[GodsGrace]

Reformed thinking of Double Predestination - R.C. Sproul

What Double Predestination is: We can call this a positive-positive view of predestination. This is, God positively and actively intervenes in the lives of the elect to bring them to salvation. In the same way God positively and actively intervenes in the life of the reprobate to bring him to sin.

This distortion of positive-positive predestination clearly makes God the author of sin who punishes a person for doing what God monergistically and irresistibly coerces man to do. Such a view is indeed a monstrous assault on the integrity of God. wondering This is not the Reformed view of predestination, but a gross and inexcusable caricature of the doctrine. Such a view may be identified with what is often loosely described as hyper-Calvinism and involves a radical form of supralapsarianism. Such a view of predestination has been virtually universally and monolithically rejected by Reformed thinkers.

The Reformed View of Predestination

In sharp contrast to the caricature of double predestination seen in the positive-positive schema is the classic position of Reformed theology on predestination. In this view predestination is double in that it involves both election and reprobation but is not symmetrical with respect to the mode of divine activity. A strict parallelism of operation is denied. Rather we view predestination in terms of a positive-negative relationship.


In the Reformed view God from all eternity decrees some to election and positively intervenes in their lives to work regeneration and faith by a monergistic work of grace. To the non-elect God withholds this monergistic work of grace, passing them by and leaving them to themselves. He does not monergistically work sin or unbelief in their lives. Even in the case of the “hardening” of the sinners’ already recalcitrant hearts, God does not, as Luther stated, “work evil in us (for hardening is working evil) by creating fresh evil in us.”
Luther continued: When men hear us say that God works both good and evil in us, and that we are subject to God’s working by mere passive necessity, they seem to imagine a man who is in himself good, and not evil, having an evil work wrought in him by God; for they do not sufficiently bear in mind how incessantly active God is in all His creatures, allowing none of them to keep holiday. He who would understand these matters, however, should think thus: God works evil in us (that is, by means of us) not through God’s own fault, but by reason of our own defect. We being evil by nature, and God being good, when He impels us to act by His own acting upon us according to the nature of His omnipotence, good though He is in Himself, He cannot but do evil by our evil instrumentality; although, according to His wisdom, He makes good use of this evil for His own glory and for our salvation.

Thus, the mode of operation in the lives of the elect is not parallel with that operation in the lives of the reprobate. God works regeneration monergistically but never sin. Sin falls within the category of providential concurrence.

Another significant difference between the activity of God with respect to the elect and the reprobate concerns God’s justice. The decree and fulfillment of election provide mercy for the elect while the efficacy of reprobation provides justice for the reprobate. God shows mercy sovereignly and unconditionally to some, and gives justice to those passed over in election. That is to say, God grants the mercy of election to some and justice to others. No one is the victim of injustice. To fail to receive mercy is not to be treated unjustly. God is under no obligation to grant mercy to all—in fact He is under no obligation to grant mercy to any. He says, “I will have mercy upon whom I will have mercy” (Rom. 9). The divine prerogative to grant mercy voluntarily cannot be faulted. If God is required by some cosmic law apart from Himself to be merciful to all men, then we would have to conclude that justice demands mercy. If that is so, then mercy is no longer voluntary, but required. If mercy is required, it is no longer mercy, but justice. What God does not do is sin by visiting injustice upon the reprobate. Only by considering election and reprobation as being asymmetrical in terms of a positive-negative schema can God be exonerated from injustice.

Aside: The Reformed doctrine of Single Predestination is not easily grasped.

Fastfredy
The entire above is not easily grasped because it is contradictory and not biblical.
God give mercy to the elect and justice to the reprobate.
What does that mean?????
I t hought God was a just God ...... For all or for no one.

These persons you post are tongue twisting words.
Read this again:
If God is predestinating those that go to heaven...
HE is responsible for those that go to hell THROUGH NO FAULT OF THEIR OWN.

The gospel is easy enough for the most simple person to understand.
God means it to be simple so that it can be available to everyone.

Romans 9 is about corporate salvation.
And God will give mercy to whom He will give mercy,
but based on HIS CONDITIONS.
A loving God will let us know His conditions.
The calvinist God is a different God....
He is confusing, difficult to understand, and does not care if His creation suffers in hell.

There's not much more to say.

 

[GodsGrace]

Nothing a dead person can do. He needs life to be able to do something !

Are you able to wake up in the morning?
Are you able to know when you do evil?

Then you're not so dead a you may think...
or anyone else for that matter.

 

[GodsGrace]

What does this have to do with man being spiritually dead ?

What it has to do with being spiritually dead is this:

GOD IS LOVE.
1 John 4:8

If God is love, how does He choose some persons to go to hell?

God is not a bunch of verses in a book called the Bible.
He is the creator and has an identity.
When what you learn does not match the identity of the creator,
you are being taught something false.

The premise that God is LOVING, MERCIFUL AND JUST,,,must always be reconciled with
what you learn or what you think you know.

Your theological premise is incorrect.
The puppies are an example of an UNLOVING, UNMERCIFUL and UNJUST owner.

Is your God like that?

 

[Fastfredy0]

I gave you many verses...not just the one about Jesus crying.
Which, BTW, if calvinism is right, it shows that Jesus is a foolish person/God.
Did God the Father forget to advise Him that HE, GOD FATHER, determines everything and that HE also determined
Jerusalem would not be willing to go to Jesus?

Sorry, didn't understand this part. I will try a different tact. Are you saying that the divine nature of God cries at times, is tired at times, can die, doesn't know certain things? ... all traits described of Jesus
Do you know of the doctrine of the hypostatic union??????

Do you trust the bible or do you trust Ferguson, Chamok, etc??

I trust what the bible tells me. If it states that God gets mad...I believe it.
If it tells me that God is a jealous God...I believe it.

I trust the Bible as the ultimate source of truth. I don't necessarily trust your interpretation, though I have faith in your integrity and honest efforts to understand truth.

So, the Bible says God changes his mind. Do you believe that to be literally true? Do you believe you can present a case to God and you might change His plan?
*interesting*

And, again, do YOU believe God could be jealous of someone's achievment?
Come on FF.

God is not jealous in the sense of the dictionary definition: feeling or showing envy of someone or their achievements and advantages
Jealous in the sense that someone is giving something to someone that belongs to God.
Sorry... sort of lost train of discussion in regards to "jealousy"

When did I say that WORLD means everyone without exception in every verse?

You never did. Rather, you said God loves everyone without exception as stated in John 3:16. I pointed out that you should not come to that conclusion based on John 3:16 alone. I then sited as evidence sited other verses where the word WORLD does not mean everyone without exception.

In the verse of John 3:16 it means that God loved His creation (us), as I've stated many times.

Again, the word WORLD could have other meanings. You come to that conclusion because it fits you bias. You can't see the word WORLD could be understood in other ways.

So show me some verses that show that it's due to GOD CAUSING HIM TO BELIEVE....
WHERE in the bible does it state that God chooses who will be saved and causes them to be saved...

See post #829 .. that is a short list ... long list would have 100+ verses

And perhaps YOU would like to explain your type of free will?
Which is not free BTW.

I am almost always ready to clarify.
Free Will: The ability to choice what you desire most at the time.
Re: Not free BTW ... if by that you mean my definition is NOT INFLUENCED, I agree. I take joy in the idea God influenced me and does influence me in such a way that I follow him (though imperfectly). Your theology has you follow due to indifference (no particular reason/uncaused ... you could follow, you might not)

What does ALL THE NATIONS and THROUGHOUT THE WHOLE WORLD
mean to YOU??

sorry, the context of my previous statement is missing so I can't answer

 

[GodsGrace]

You cannot define a word by using that word. Example: Love is love. That's begs the question.

I don't know what you think. I asked for a definition of love and you responded with:
Agape” is one of several Greek words for love. When the word “agape” is used in the Bible, it refers to a pure, willful, sacrificial love that intentionally desires another’s highest good."

Then I asked why love had to be sacrificial and now you seem to say it does not. If Love does not have to be "sacrificial", why did you use it in your definition. I seek clarification. What do you mean by agape love must be PURE. Does that means a holy God cannot love that which is unholy?

We're having communication problems.
I said, you said will not work in a serious conversation.
Your questions are beginning to make no sense.
Agape love is a pure love.
You need a definition for that?
I'm not a dictionary.

English, words, a dictionary, scripture are necessary tools for communication.

You said "MERCY" means: to have compassion on someone
You gave a definition that is not in the dictionary. Compassion is not necessarily part of MERCY. I can hate someone and yet have MERCY. We are a problem because the words you are using are being misused IMO.
You said:
AGAPE LOVE must be "sacrificial"
MERCY means compassion
You won't define "FREE WILL". Hospes also asked you to define it and then, your answer lead him to ask for further explanation as it was unclear.
This is making communication difficult.

Yes. Maybe it's time to stop.

John 3:16 is not an example of Justice. It is an example of mercy. How is God saving something due to faith defined as Justice? Are you saying YOU DESERVE TO BE SAVED, that you earned it by having faith.
Your definition of justice is: giving a person what he deserves

John 3:16 is mercy and justice.

This is untrue. A baby has a 100% chance to be saved. An adult does not. This is clearly not the "same opportunity".
Please find any commentator that believes people that have not heard the gospel can be saved.
1 Peter 1:20 Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture comes from one’s own interpretation.

Romans 1:19-20
I don't care for commentators.
I like the simple words in the bible.

That reminds me ... Please find a quotation where MacArthur said "God creates evil" that you use to attribute this spurious idea to Calvinists. I've challenged you several times and have not heard a reply. Do you wish to withdraw the accusation?

No. I do not wish to withdraw the accusation.
I don't care what Macarthur says or Sproul or Spurgeon or Calvin.
I l ike logic.
YOU believe God predestinated EVERYTHING...
this would include evil.
Take it or leave it.

This is not your entire belief. You believe one does not need to hear the gospel to be saved in which case evangelism is of questionable use. In point of fact, if people can be saved without hearing the gospel the consequences of your version of evangelism could be detrimental given the possibility that a higher percentage of those that may not have heard the gospel are saved than have heard the gospel. Effectively you have two gospels salvation:

You're confusing what I'vesaid and not stating it properly.
Evangelism is necessary.

1. Faith in Christ's death and resurrection
2. Some sort of belief that, if a person believes in a higher power and he is being a good person (something like that) .. he can be saved

This is contrary to Paul: Galatians 1:8

Man has always been saved by faith.
Lydia
Cornelius
Enoch
Abraham
etc.

Your definition Libertians Free Will make evangelism of little use. You said I could use any definition of Libertians Free Will so I use the one on Gotquestions.org ... Libertarian free will is basically the concept that, metaphysically and morally, man is an autonomous being, one who operates independently, not controlled by others or by outside forces.

This being your definition, evangelism is useless from the hearers' point of view as that person one who operates independently, not controlled by others or by outside forces. Evangelism is by definition "an outside force".

A man is presented with the gospel.
He can CHOOSE, freely, whether or not he wishes to adhere and be saved.

evil...since He predestinated everything.

part 1 of 2

 

[GodsGrace]

Fastfredy0

page 2 of 2

The first statement is spurious. Again I challenge you to find any Reformed theologian that propagates this falsehood. You've ignored similar challenges when you have assigned false doctrine to those that are reformed.
I don't know why God picks "A" or "B". Read Romans 9:14-24 for your answer when Paul speaks on the issue.
Aside: Possibly a part of God's main purpose: His glory and His pleasure.

Romans 9:14-24 is not speaking about personal salvation.
It's referring to the Jews and how they resented the gentiles being accepted.
Study up on t his.
I'm not getting into this with anyone on this forum if they do not already know this.

Oh. Again, Calvin created CAlvinism...some have changed it.
No calvinist is exactly the same -- doesn't make conversation easy, does it?
If I wanted to be a calvinist,,,I'd go by the Institutes.

This is an empirically false statement. Those who have not heard the gospel don't "know HOW". As your premise is false, any conclusion based on that premise has no support in your argument.
Aside: God defines justice, not you or I. Your propose a holy God loves that which is unholy. (Example: sons of Satan doomed to hell) and using spurious thought, build a false theological system IMO. (Naturally, you think my system is faulty too.)

More misunderstandings.
I am not repeating because I'm finding that it's useless.

Again, you only partially answered the question. The question: Give me an example of something God did not cause ... and then tell me what was the cause.
You did not give the cause of Columbine ... so your answer was partially unresponsive.
... and so it is with Libertarian Free Will .. there is no cause as there is no such thing in reality ... or perhaps you can tell me the ontological cause of Libertarian Free Will (where did you get it from?)

Where did I get it from?
Didn't God create everything?
LOL
God gave me free will FF.
He gave it to Adam and never took it away.
BTW,,,you haven't answered many questions have you?
Have you shown me where, in the bible, it states that God has taken away our free will?
No. Because it doesn't exist. God gave us free will and we still have it.
You never explained Philemon 1:14 that clearly states his free will.

Interesting, you understand it very well but when repeatedly asked for a definition and clarification you refused to give it. This is fundamental to your theology and yet you won't define it ... an interesting evasion.

Yes, he gives us a choice. But NO ONE SEEKS GOD. So no one takes God up on His offer unless God first regenerates him. John 1:12-13 clearly states no one comes to God on their own as it is outside the will of man. Ephesians 2:8-9 state the source of faith is God.

No one seeks God?

Matthew 6:33​

But seek first the kingdom of God and his righteousness, and all these things will be added to you.

Hebrews 11:6​

And without faith it is impossible to please him, for whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him.

Proverbs 8:17​

I love those who love me, and those who seek me diligently find me.

1 Chronicles 16:11​

Seek the Lord and his strength; seek his presence continually!

Jeremiah 29:13​

You will seek me and find me, when you seek me with all your heart.

Deuteronomy ​

But from there you will seek the Lord your God and you will find him, if you search after him with all your heart and with
all your soul.

Matthew 7:7-8​

“Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. For everyone who asks receives, and the one who seeks finds, and to the one who knocks it will be opened.

Psalm 9:10​

And those who know your name put their trust in you, for you, O Lord, have not forsaken those who seek you.

Psalm 14:2​

The Lord looks down from heaven on the children of man, to see if there are any who understand, who seek after God.

need more?

You were making comment about REFORMED doctrines. When it comes to the beliefs of the REFORMED denomination the Confession is authoritative; not scripture. So when answering questions about REFORMED doctrine one goes to a confession or reformed theologian. Analogy: I want to fix my flat tire. I don't go to scripture, I go to a document that is an authority for the question at hand. Now, if you want to know what God the best source is scripture and this is a REFORMED doctrine.

That kind of says it all !
The confession is authoratative....NOT SCRIPTURE!
So why even read the bible?
Why find out if the confession is correct?
Acts 17:11
11Now these were more noble-minded than those in Thessalonica, for they received the word with great eagerness, examining the Scriptures daily to see whether these things were so.

You clearly don't understand the nature of evil. It is not a thing and not created. Even God cannot create something that is nothing.

Your numerous statements show you do not understand Calvinism well. When you are confronted with the REFORMED confession that clearly states "God is author of evil" you disregard the clear statement and say REFORMED doctrine doesn't believe what it says it believes. *twilight zone*

Part 1 of 2

YOU are the one saying God is not the author of evil in calvinism.
Not me.
In calvinism...God IS the author of evil because He created everything and predestinates everything.

 

[Fastfredy0]

The entire above is not easily grasped because it is contradictory and not biblical.

Agreed, it is not theology 101.
It states that reformed doctrines does not believe in double predestination. You stated, as best I recall, that reformed doctrine believes in double predestination and this essay by a leading reformed proponent refutes your claim.
That what the intention.

od give mercy to the elect and justice to the reprobate.
What does that mean?????
I t hought God was a just God ...... For all or for no one.

It means those going to heaven got mercy (unmerited favor) and those going to hell got justice (what they deserved)
Your define of Justice IMO means God had to give everyone the same opportunity to be saved. But your definition of justice is: giving a person what he deserves
All the guys going to hell get "what they deserve".
I guess you think it unjust to not give everyone a chance to be saved; that, God is obligated to treat everyone the same. Scripture shows many places where God doesn't treat everyone the same. Maybe you are insisting that God is unjust if he does treat everyone the same in regards to salvation. I've shown He treats salvation in relation to babies differently than adults so that invalids that theory. Anyways...

If God is predestinating those that go to heaven...
HE is responsible for those that go to hell THROUGH NO FAULT OF THEIR OWN.

I addressed this with long article.

The gospel is easy enough for the most simple person to understand.
God means it to be simple so that it can be available to everyone.

If don't agree. 1 Cor. 2:14 .... Plus verses saying the gospel is foolishness in men's eyes ... to confound the wise (something like that)
For the message of the cross is foolishness [absurd and illogical] to those who are perishing and spiritually dead [because they reject it], but to us who are being saved [by God’s grace] it is [the manifestation of] the power of God.

The calvinist God is a different God....

Well, if that be true I am destined for hell with Allah's worshipers.
Perhaps you can soften that a little ... say .. Calvinist's have a different understanding of God in some areas.

Gee ... I wonder how much the Dallas Cowboys are losing by ... have to check my DVR. (Hmmmm, if God was just He would give Dallas better players ..... hmmm, I hope God likes my humor (spelt humour for you I suppose)

 

[jerry63935]

You putting the cart before the horse. A spiritually dead person has no spiritual life, Faith is a Spiritual grace. Once a person is made alive first, given Spiritual life, then he can have faith.

AWW SEE I BVEEN WAITING FOR THIS REPLY ..this is not my first rodeo ,i just couldn't remember the exact order see romans 12 :3 For I say, through the grace given to me, to everyone who is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think soberly, as God has dealt to each one a measure of faith.. Faith is there heck i had faith in who christ was and what he could do for years. i rejected it over the pleasures of sin for a season might i also add i was trying to get you to bring this up. its what you been implying along. Faith is a gift from God and with out faith it is impossible to please God by faith hebrews 11
1 Now faith is the [a]substance of things hoped for, the [b]evidence of things not seen. 2 For by it the elders obtained a good testimony.

3 By faith we understand that the [c]worlds were framed by the word of God, so that the things which are seen were not made of things which are visible.

the majority of the world will accept creation or evolution, granted there are some who are evolution believers. but most of them would fall under agnostics . a church i wa pastor at i had a man who i have known most my life . he would come to the Church service with his wife. sunday school and church even took interest in seeing things done for the Church. deep down he would not have anything to do with God. just wasnt real sure he was the real thing. he wanted more prof . yes he had to accept it by faith but his mind was closed waiting for better prof. the faith is there . if God had to give certain ones faith to believe , then it no longer would be the free gift or free will

Romans 5:14-16

New King James Version

​

14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come. 15 But the free gift is not like the [a]offense. For if by the one man’s offense many died, much more the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abounded to many. 16 And the gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned. For the judgment which came from one offense resulted in condemnation, but the free gift which came from many [b]offenses resulted in justification.

GOD through Jesus BY the Power of the Holy spirit Justifies us the very moment we accept Christ into our heart