The Value of Evangelism in Reformed Theology

[jerry63935]

One is made alive by the Spirit quickening him or her, then they can have faith, faith is the fruit of the Spirit Gal 5 22

then explain FAITH COMES BY HEARING

 

[brightfame52]

then explain FAITH COMES BY HEARING

When one has been made Spiritually alive then they Spiritually hear and believe. You fail to understand that man is spiritually dead by nature. He can't hear Spiritually even though he may hear naturally.

 

[for_his_glory]

I agree that man was created for God's pleasure. As God needs nothing, he did not need man to take care of His creation. God goodness was His motivation to give man this secondary purpose.
Man's purpose is similar to God's: “Man’s chief end is to glorify [‘obey’ per R.C. Sproul] God, and to enjoy him forever.” Westminster Shorter Catechism
God’s pleasure in regards to man is a result of God’s goodness; His giving to man; man’s actions do not bring God pleasure. (It is better to give than receive)

God’s pleasure in his creatures is the joy of the Giver of all good. His aseity and sufficiency teach us that he never receives any good that is not already His. God has pleasure in saving His people by grace, for “he delighteth in mercy” (Micah 7:18). The fact that God is the Giver does not limit his happiness, but reveals that he is the happiest of all, for “it is more blessed to give than to receive” (Acts 20:35).

God’s pleasure in his people is the gladness of his grace to them. God rejoices over his people as he does them good and draws them near to himself. The Lord said of Israel, Jeremiah 32:41 “Yea, I will rejoice over them to do them good, and I will plant them in this land assuredly with my whole heart and with my whole soul,” an anthropomorphic expression for God’s intense concern and absolute commitment. Joel Beeke Reformed Systematic Theology

Glory

• Numbers 14:21 but indeed as I live, all the earth will be filled with the glory of the Lord.
• Psalm 106:8 Nevertheless He saved them for the sake of His name, That He might make His power known.
• Isaiah 43:6-7 "I will say to the north, Give up, and to the south, Keep not back; bring my sons from afar; and my daughters from the ends of the earth, even every one that is called by my name; for I have created him for my glory, I have formed him, yea I have made him."
• Isaiah 48:9 “For the sake of My name I delay My wrath, And for My praise I restrain it for you, In order not to cut you off. 10 “Behold, I have refined you, but not as silver; I have tested you in the furnace of affliction. 11 “For My own sake, for My own sake, I will act; For how can My name be profaned? And My glory I will not give to another.
• Ephesians 1:5 "Having predestinated us to the adoption of children by Jesus Christ, unto himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, to the praise of the glory of his grace
• Philippians 2:11 "That every tongue should confess that Jesus is the Lord, to the glory of God the Father."
• Philippians 10, 11 "That ye may approve things that are excellent, that ye may be sincere, and without offence, till the day of Christ: being filled with the fruits of righteousness, which are by Jesus Christ, unto the glory and praise of God."

Pleasure

• Isaiah 46:9-10 "Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else! I am God, and there is none like Me, declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all My pleasure".
• Ephesians 1:5 "Having predestinated us to the adoption of children by Jesus Christ, unto himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, to the praise of the glory of his grace
• Ephesians 1:9 “Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, [or the secret of His will] according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself” 10 [He planned] for the maturity of the times and the climax of the ages to unify all things and head them up and consummate them in Christ, [both] things in heaven and things on the earth.
• 2 Thessalonians 1:11-12 "Wherefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you worthy of his calling, and fulfil all the good pleasure of his goodness, and the work of faith with power:

All things are for God's good pleasure just as He created man to glorify and honor Him in all they do and speak.

 

[for_his_glory]

I dont discuss myself ! Lets keep this about what the scripture says. And it says men are by nature, dead in sin, without spiritual life.

Sorry, I was only asking how you understood it as giving a testimony, but I see you are not into giving your testimony how you came to Christ. That's sad.

 

[for_his_glory]

That what you stated didn't sound scriptural. None of those verses you quote collaborate what you stated.

God predestined the plan of salvation through Christ Jesus that all who would call upon His name and believe would be God's chosen by His grace through faith that is Christ Jesus. God's chosen are those who hear the voice of the Shepard and turn back to Him. God is not going to choose anyone who denies Him or His Son Christ Jesus.

Sorry, but I can't make you see how all those scriptures are relevant. That you will have to study for your self.

 

[for_his_glory]

One is made alive by the Spirit quickening him or her, then they can have faith

Could you please provide the scripture for this as I do not take any ones word for anything.

 

[Fastfredy0]

then explain FAITH COMES BY HEARING

Hearing the gospel is a prerequisite to faith. Hearing does not insure salvific faith.

When one has been made Spiritually alive then they Spiritually hear and believe.

Premise 1: One must know what to believe in order to have faith.
Premise 2: One cannot be spiritually alive without faith.
Conclusion: Hearing the gospel precedes faith.

 

[for_his_glory]

Acts 10:34-35 .. this refers to Peter and Cornelius ... Peter did not think the Gentiles were in God's plan of salvation and then he 'see the light' so to speak and comes to the conclusion that God salvation is for the Gentiles also.

Ephesians 1:11 In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will [salvation, while occurring in the temporal order, is a result of a pre-temporal choice of the Father] [Such a statement could not be made in truthfulness if the execution of His purpose depended upon a cooperation with others which was in their power to withhold.]

Romans 8:28 And we know that for those who love God all things [divine undertakings-divine foreknowledge, divine predestination, divine calling, divine justification and glorification] work together for good, for those who are called [effectual call] according to his purpose [God’s purpose CANNOT be thwarted]. 29 For those whom he foreknew [foreknown in the Bible always refers to a person/people and NOT the actions of a man/people] he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30 And those whom he predestined he also called [an efficacious call that cannot be rejected], and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

Romans 10:9-17
The verses do not address the question at hand ... whether God selects the individual or the individual does the work of righteousness to believe on his own.

My turn
Theis: God did predestine/chose which individuals would come to him and predestined the plan. Read again.

Ephesians 1:11 In Him also we have [received an inheritance [a destiny—we were claimed by God as His own], having been predestined (chosen, appointed beforehand) according to the purpose of Him who works everything in agreement with the counsel and design of His will, (Note: it doesn't say according to His will and our will; just His will)

John 1:13 who were born, not of blood [natural conception], nor of the will of the flesh [physical impulse], nor of the will of man [that of a natural father], but of God [that is, a divine and supernatural birth—they are born of God—spiritually transformed, renewed, sanctified].

John 6:29 Jesus answered, “This is the work of God: that you believe [adhere to, trust in, rely on, and have faith] in the One whom He has sent.” Clearly this verse defines faith as a work. Thus faith must originate from God since God’s grace does not include man works (Galatians 5:2).

Romans 12:3b as God has apportioned to each a degree of faith [and a purpose designed for service]. Note: It is God doing the apportioning

1 Corinthians 2:5 So that your faith might not rest in the wisdom of men (human philosophy), but in the power of God.

1 Corinthians 12:3b And no one can [really] say, Jesus is [my] Lord, except by and under the power and influence of the Holy Spirit. [The confession of the Lordship of Christ in saving faith is a gift of the Holy Spirit. Tom Constable: no one would sincerely acknowledge that Jesus is Lord, Savior and or Sovereign, unless the Holy Spirit had some influence over him or her

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this [referring to salvation through faith] is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works (not founded upon anything in the believer himself), so that no one may boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

“And this is not your own doing.” The word “this” must have an antecedent, which would normally be the closest preceding noun. In this case, “this” would refer back to “faith.” Paul is not saying that grace is not our own doing. That would be redundant, because if it were our own doing, it would not be gracious at all. Rather, he says that faith is not our own doing. That does not mean that faith is not found in us; it is found in us. It does not mean that it is someone else’s faith by which we are justified. It is, properly speaking, our faith, for we are the ones who have it, the ones who are exercising it. But it is not our own doing, meaning that we are not the origin of it. It is not something that we have generated by our own power, nor does it originate in our flesh. R.C. Sproul Truths We Confess

Furthermore, if synergism is embraced, then there is the very real but subtle danger that men could boast that they made use of God's grace or had more wisdom than the man who rejected Christ. They could boast that they are different for, unlike others, they responded to Christ. The autonomous natural man would, then, ultimately determine His own salvation, not God. Since a work is a purpose achieved by physical or mental exertion. To believe is a difficult task; the Bible says it is foolishness to the unsaved and no one seeks God. Finally, the context of the verse (2:1-10) forbids the idea that man has any positive role in his own salvation. The verses include expressions like, "by grace you have been saved," "this not from yourselves," "it is the gift of God," "not by works," "so that no one can boast," "we are God's work," "created in Christ Jesus to do good works," "which God prepared in advance for us to do."

This is the short list

God predestined everything as far as His plan of Salvation by faith that is Christ Jesus in whom we must first believe in by faith as it is by God's grace.

God does not choose who are going to be His own, but draws His own to Him by those who hear Him calling them. His choice of those who He saves are those who come to Him by faith. They hear the voice of the Shepard and come to Him. Read Hebrews Chapter 11 as all things come by faith. If one has no faith and walks in disobedience to His commands then they are none of His own. God is not going to save anyone that is not His own.

John 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
John 1:11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
John 1:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

John 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
John 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
John 3:20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
John 3:21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

 

[jerry63935]

You fail to understand that man is spiritually dead by nature. He can't hear Spiritually even though he may hear naturally.

you have more excuses than jimmy carter had peanuts. When God Calls/speaks we hear from the heart besides that is not what scripture has to say faith comes by hearing
17 So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

18 But I say, have they not heard? Yes indeed:

“Their sound has gone out to all the earth,
And their words to the ends of the world.”
19 But I say, did Israel not know? First Moses says:

“I will provoke you to jealousy by those who are not a nation,
I will move you to anger by a foolish nation.”
20 But Isaiah is very bold and says:

“I was found by those who did not seek Me;
I was made manifest to those who did not ask for Me.”
21 But to Israel he says:
Isaiah 6:10
“All day long I have stretched out My hands
To a disobedient and contrary people.”

“Make the heart of this people dull,
And their ears heavy,
And shut their eyes;
Lest they see with their eyes,
And hear with their ears,
And understand with their heart,
And return and be healed.”

Ephesians 1:12-14



​

12 that we who first trusted in Christ should be to the praise of His glory.
13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who[a] is the [b]guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

your discounting the power of God . the word of God is quick and powerful

 

[Fastfredy0]

God does not choose who are going to be His own, but draws His own to Him by those who hear Him calling them.

Well, I responded to your verses which you said supported your claim with an explanation. Granted, you may not agree ... but I put in the effort.
Seems fair that you reciprocate by explaining why my verses don't support my contention that God alone determines my salvation.

 

[Fastfredy0]

you have more excuses than jimmy carter had peanuts.

Good one

 

[jerry63935]

Hearing the gospel is a prerequisite to faith. Hearing does not insure salvific faith.


Premise 1: One must know what to believe in order to have faith.
Premise 2: One cannot be spiritually alive without faith.
Conclusion: Hearing the gospel precedes faith.

sigh i had forgotten just how well doctrinated reformed /calvinist are. i am going to disagree with you all the way.. pretty fancy words

salvific

<Premise 1: One must know what to believe in order to have faith. > i hate to break this to you. in all my years living in the pleasures of sin for a season i did know in whom to believe in. in fact i believed in God and the plan of salvation., i simply rejected it.. did the god of this world have me blinded ? yes but see the night i got saved God spoke to me now or never. let me you you a word of advice .before you might attempt to correct me on what i heard. i suggest NOT i keep my post and a dult level. how ever i am not afraid to post my real thoughts i used this in carm and the so called theologians of calvinism told me that God never said that.. my reply was not very nice
<
Premise 2: One cannot be spiritually alive without faith.
Conclusion: Hearing the gospel precedes faith.>
your selling the power of God short nice try but no cigar.. its been a long time since i went toe toe on this subject btw i dont use fancy words

 

[for_his_glory]

Well, I responded to your verses which you said supported your claim with an explanation. Granted, you may not agree ... but I put in the effort.
Seems fair that you reciprocate by explaining why my verses don't support my contention that God alone determines my salvation.

We have both put in the effort and I commend wondering for the great effort she is putting forth to bring truth to this topic. Reformed theology will never agree with that which is already written as John Calvin and his followers have been manipulating scripture with his own theories since the 16th century.

I'm done with all this as I have no more to give as we will never see eye to eye on any of this. No, I am not coping out, I just grow weary beating a dead horse.

All I can say is that everyone keep it civil and remember to walk in the unity of love for one another. I will be keeping my eye on this thread.

 

[JLB]

When one has been made Spiritually alive then they Spiritually hear and believe.

100% backwards.

A person must first hear and believe to be saved.

Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. Luke 8:12

Believing results in salvation, not salvation results in believing.


Paul says it this way —


How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach unless they are sent? As it is written:
“How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the gospel of peace,
Who bring glad tidings of good things!”
But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “LORD, who has believed our report?” So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
Romans 10:14-17

• How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed?
  And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard?

First comes hearing then believing and obeying which results n salvation.



JLB

 

[brightfame52]

Could you please provide the scripture for this as I do not take any ones word for anything.

Faith is the fruit of the Spirit Gal 5 22. Prior to quickening man is dead in sin Eph 2:1,5. Spiritually dead persons don't have the fruit of the Spirit which faith is.

 

[brightfame52]

100% backwards.

A person must first hear and believe to be saved.

Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. Luke 8:12

Believing results in salvation, not salvation results in believing.


Paul says it this way —


How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach unless they are sent? As it is written:
“How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the gospel of peace,
Who bring glad tidings of good things!”
But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “LORD, who has believed our report?” So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
Romans 10:14-17

• How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed?
  And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard?

First comes hearing then believing and obeying which results n salvation.



JLB

A Spiritually dead person cannot hear the words of God Spiritually. What did Jesus say to these men In 8:43

Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.

 

[brightfame52]

you have more excuses than jimmy carter had peanuts. When God Calls/speaks we hear from the heart besides that is not what scripture has to say faith comes by hearing
17 So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

18 But I say, have they not heard? Yes indeed:

“Their sound has gone out to all the earth,
And their words to the ends of the world.”
19 But I say, did Israel not know? First Moses says:

“I will provoke you to jealousy by those who are not a nation,
I will move you to anger by a foolish nation.”
20 But Isaiah is very bold and says:

“I was found by those who did not seek Me;
I was made manifest to those who did not ask for Me.”
21 But to Israel he says:
Isaiah 6:10
“All day long I have stretched out My hands
To a disobedient and contrary people.”

“Make the heart of this people dull,
And their ears heavy,
And shut their eyes;
Lest they see with their eyes,
And hear with their ears,
And understand with their heart,
And return and be healed.”

Ephesians 1:12-14​

​

​

​

​

12 that we who first trusted in Christ should be to the praise of His glory.
13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who[a] is the [b]guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

your discounting the power of God . the word of God is quick and powerful

Men naturally can't hear Spiritually. The natural man cannot understand the things of the Spirit of God 1 Cor 2:14

 

[brightfame52]

Hearing the gospel is a prerequisite to faith. Hearing does not insure salvific faith.


Premise 1: One must know what to believe in order to have faith.
Premise 2: One cannot be spiritually alive without faith.
Conclusion: Hearing the gospel precedes faith.

One cannot have faith without being Spiritually alive because faith is the fruit of the Spirit.

 

[GodsGrace]

We have both put in the effort and I commend wondering for the great effort she is putting forth to bring truth to this topic. Reformed theology will never agree with that which is already written as John Calvin and his followers have been manipulating scripture with his own theories since the 16th century.

I'm done with all this as I have no more to give as we will never see eye to eye on any of this. No, I am not coping out, I just grow weary beating a dead horse.

All I can say is that everyone keep it civil and remember to walk in the unity of love for one another. I will be keeping my eye on this thread.

Hi for his glory....
There are a few new members here and I'd like to say that what I post it's always for those reading along.
I think you know this, but other new members may not.

We will never change the mind of someone that is committed to their theology .... or their knowledge of our God.
However, there are many on the fence, or thinking about a subject, and speaking about it seems like a good idea to me.

However, I also feel that the other member and I are repeating so it's beginning to need a rest !

I agree with you about Calvin, BTW. And I find it interesting that the "new" calvinists have softened up their tone to
make calvinism more palatable.

 

[GodsGrace]

Same old chestnut. I've explained it numerous times. I will keep it simple.
Evil is evil and good is good and evil is never good; yet it is good the evil exists otherwise God would never have allowed it.
...or I will state that you either believe:

1. God is not all powerful because of the existence of evil OR
2. He created evil.

Using your understanding of evil, which choice do you wish to make (probably you won't answer)


Agreed. I said 'evil' is not a thing. What's your point?





First statement is false. Example: I slap the policeman. This is NOT GOOD, yet it is not neutral.
When you do something contrary to God moral will, it is evil.



So sleeping, which I assume is neutral, is not allowed?
Aside: I am depending on the imputed righteousness of God to "be good".
Augustine: “But I commend not the works of my hands, for I fear that when thou examinest them thou wilt find more faults than merits. This only I say and desire, despise not the works of thy hands. See in me thy work, not mine. If thou sees mine, thou condemnest; if thou sees thine own, thou crownest. Whatever good works I have are of thee".



Well, that is an example of dualism. The dictionary says:
the state of being dual or consisting of two parts; division into two.
https://www.dictionary.com/browse/dualism
So, salvation from your point of view consists of two part (synergism): What God did and what you have to do to be saved. We can use a different word; fine with me.


... whereas I say I do good works by the power of God. John 15:5 ; 1 Corinthians 4:7 ; Ephesians 2:10 ...



I said God has emotion but is not emotional. If God is happy one minute and not the next then He has changed and this contradicts His immutability.


Are you saying God can change in other ways?

Oh, good ... not over 10,000 characters

I also believe we do good works with the power of the Holy Spirit.

Changing how one feels does not change his character.

And, yes, the 10,000 word limit is rather annoying!
But there must be a reason for it as I'm sure the administrators know this.