O
Orthodox Christian
Guest
Awed! So good to see you, so to speak...AwedbyGod said:
Yes, chipping away I am, perhaps I should get a hammer and spare my forehead.
Welcome to the forum, my old friend.
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Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
Join For His Glory for a discussion on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/a-vessel-of-honor.110278/
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Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
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Depending upon the Holy Spirit for all you do?
Read through the following study by Tenchi for more on this topic
https://christianforums.net/threads/without-the-holy-spirit-we-can-do-nothing.109419/
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How are famous preachers sometimes effected by sin?
Join Sola Scriptura for a discussion on the subject
https://christianforums.net/threads/anointed-preaching-teaching.109331/#post-1912042
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Yes, chipping away I am, perhaps I should get a hammer and spare my forehead.
Welcome to the forum, my old friend.
B
bibleberean
Guest
From "Mary Worship a Study of Catholic Practice and Doctrine"
Mary Ann Collins former Nun
http://www.catholicconcerns.com/MaryWorship.html
ASSUMPTION -- At the end of her life, Mary was taken up ("assumed") body and soul into Heaven. ("Catechism" 966, 974)
There is no biblical reference to the assumption of Mary.
The Gospel of John was written around 90 A.D., which is more than 100 years after Mary was born.
(Surely Mary was more than ten years old when Jesus was conceived.)
If Mary had been supernaturally assumed into Heaven, wouldn't John (the disciple that Mary lived with) have mentioned it?
When Enoch and Elijah were taken up to Heaven, the Bible recorded it. With Elijah it was recorded in some detail. (See Genesis 6:24 and 2 Kings 2:1-18.)
The Assumption of Mary was officially declared to be a dogma of the Roman Catholic faith in 1950. This means that every Roman Catholic is required to believe this doctrine without questioning it. However, as we will see, the teaching of the Assumption originated with heretical writings which were officially condemned by the early Church.
In 495 A.D., Pope Gelasius issued a decree which rejected this teaching as heresy and its proponents as heretics. In the sixth century, Pope Hormisdas also condemned as heretics those authors who taught the doctrine of the Assumption of Mary.
The early Church clearly considered the doctrine of the Assumption of Mary to be a heresy worthy of condemnation. Here we have "infallible" popes declaring something to be a heresy. Then in 1950, Pope Pius XII, another "infallible" pope, declared it to be official Roman Catholic doctrine. (Note 15)
CO-MEDIATOR -- Mary is the Co-Mediator to whom we can entrust all our cares and petitions. ("Catechism" 968-970, 2677)
There is only one mediator and that is Jesus. 1 Timothy 2:5-6 says, "For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus: Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time." Hebrews 7:25 says,Wherefore he [Jesus] is able to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them." Ephesians 3:12 says, "In whom [Jesus} we have boldness and access with confidence by the faith of him."
If Jesus is constantly interceding for us and He is able to save us "to the uttermost," (utterly, completely) then He doesn't need Mary's help. If we can approach God with "boldness" and "confidence" because of our faith in Jesus, then we don't need Mary's help either.
13. William Webster, "The Church of Rome at the Bar of History," pages 72-77.
14. William Webster, pages 79-80.
15. William Webster, pages 81-85.
Mary Ann Collins former Nun
http://www.catholicconcerns.com/MaryWorship.html
ASSUMPTION -- At the end of her life, Mary was taken up ("assumed") body and soul into Heaven. ("Catechism" 966, 974)
There is no biblical reference to the assumption of Mary.
The Gospel of John was written around 90 A.D., which is more than 100 years after Mary was born.
(Surely Mary was more than ten years old when Jesus was conceived.)
If Mary had been supernaturally assumed into Heaven, wouldn't John (the disciple that Mary lived with) have mentioned it?
When Enoch and Elijah were taken up to Heaven, the Bible recorded it. With Elijah it was recorded in some detail. (See Genesis 6:24 and 2 Kings 2:1-18.)
The Assumption of Mary was officially declared to be a dogma of the Roman Catholic faith in 1950. This means that every Roman Catholic is required to believe this doctrine without questioning it. However, as we will see, the teaching of the Assumption originated with heretical writings which were officially condemned by the early Church.
In 495 A.D., Pope Gelasius issued a decree which rejected this teaching as heresy and its proponents as heretics. In the sixth century, Pope Hormisdas also condemned as heretics those authors who taught the doctrine of the Assumption of Mary.
The early Church clearly considered the doctrine of the Assumption of Mary to be a heresy worthy of condemnation. Here we have "infallible" popes declaring something to be a heresy. Then in 1950, Pope Pius XII, another "infallible" pope, declared it to be official Roman Catholic doctrine. (Note 15)
CO-MEDIATOR -- Mary is the Co-Mediator to whom we can entrust all our cares and petitions. ("Catechism" 968-970, 2677)
There is only one mediator and that is Jesus. 1 Timothy 2:5-6 says, "For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus: Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time." Hebrews 7:25 says,Wherefore he [Jesus] is able to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them." Ephesians 3:12 says, "In whom [Jesus} we have boldness and access with confidence by the faith of him."
If Jesus is constantly interceding for us and He is able to save us "to the uttermost," (utterly, completely) then He doesn't need Mary's help. If we can approach God with "boldness" and "confidence" because of our faith in Jesus, then we don't need Mary's help either.
13. William Webster, "The Church of Rome at the Bar of History," pages 72-77.
14. William Webster, pages 79-80.
15. William Webster, pages 81-85.
T
thessalonian
Guest
Mary Ann Colins was not a Nun. She is a liar to start with. She was a former novice, i.e. never took vows.
BB, I'm requesting your presence in another thread I started in this very forum about Mary's blessedness. Is she the most blessed among women or just another blessed.
BB, I'm requesting your presence in another thread I started in this very forum about Mary's blessedness. Is she the most blessed among women or just another blessed.
T
thessalonian
Guest
bibleberean said:
I've studied this issue in detail so let me comment on it. Pope Gelesius never, I REPEAT NEVER said the doctrine of the Assumption was false and put an anethema on it. What he did was to condemn a document called "Tracates of the Assumption of Mary". That was the title of the document. At that time the document was available and he wanted to ensure that whatever in it was heretical was not distributed. We do not today know what that was because we do not have the document. It is false logic to say that because he condemened a document that had the words "Assumption of Mary" in it to say that he condemened the doctrine of the Assumption of Mary. Embarrassingly false logic for Mr. Hank Hanagraph who used this information by Mr. Webster on his program. They would not address the issue directly when I sent it in and like people on this board would only avoid the direct issue and attack tangential issues. By the Logic used Mr. Hanagraph would have been against have a closer realtionship with Christ because he condemns Joyce Myers who wrote a book called "Comming to a Closer Relationship with Christ". He would also be able to say that the Catholic Church condemned BOTH predestination and free will because Peleguius wrote a book by that title that was condemned by Pope Agatho I believe it was. We do have the text on that one and could easily prove how sill it would be to make such claim. But anti-catholics would rather hide behind a title of a book whose contents we know little of and say it says something about Catholic theology changing on the doctrine of the assumption. Very sad.
Blessings
B
bibleberean
Guest
Mary was never assumed bodily into heaven. I repeat Never...
This type of event along with the rosary and other false Catholic teachings should be rejected.
The bible does not mention it. The scriptures do not tell us to make statues of Mary and bow down to them.
The scriptures do not tell us to pray the rosary. The scriptures do not tell us to pray to the dead.
Here are a few of the deceptions promoted by the RCC
http://www.catholicconcerns.com/MaryWorship.html
Mary Ann Collins
IMMACULATE CONCEPTION -- Mary was preserved from all stain of original sin from the first instant of her conception. ("Catechism" 490-492).
In Luke 1:46-47, Mary said: "My soul doth magnify the Lord, And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour". Mary knew that she needed a savior.
The doctrine of the Immaculate Conception was first introduced by a heretic (a man whose teachings were officially declared to be contrary to Church doctrine). For centuries this doctrine was unanimously rejected by popes, Fathers and theologians of the Catholic Church. (Note 13)
ALL-HOLY -- Mary, "the All-Holy," lived a perfectly sinless life. ("Catechism" 411, 493)
Romans 3:23 says "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God". Revelation 15:4 says, "Who shall not fear thee, O Lord, and glorify thy name? For thou only art holy". Romans 3:10 says, "There is none righteous, no, not one".
Jesus is the only person who is referred to in Scripture as sinless.
Hebrews 4:15 says, "For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feelings of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin." 2 Corinthians 5:21 says, "For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him." 1 Peter 2:22 says, "Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth".
In contrast, Mary said that God is her Savior. (Luke 1:47) If God was her Savior, then Mary was not sinless. Sinless people do not need a Savior.
In the Book of Revelation, when they were searching for someone who was worthy to break the seals and open the scroll, the only person who was found to be worthy was Jesus. Nobody else in Heaven or on earth (including Mary) was worthy to open the scroll or even look inside it.
(Revelation 5:1-5)PERPETUAL VIRGINITY -- Mary was a virgin before, during and after the birth of Christ. ("Catechism" 496-511)
Matthew 1:24-25 says, "Then Joseph being raised from sleep did as the angel of the Lord had bidden him, and took unto him his wife: And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS." "Till" (until) means that after that point, Joseph did "know" (have sexual relations with) Mary. (See Genesis 4:1 where Adam "knew" Eve and she conceived and had a son.)
Jesus had brothers and sisters. The Bible even tells us their names. Matthew 13:54-56 says, "
And when he was come into his own country, he taught them in their synagogue, insomuch that they were astonished, and said, Whence hatch this man this wisdom, and these mighty works? Is not this the carpenter’s son? Is not his mother called Mary? And his brethren, James, and Joses, and Simon, and Judas? And his sisters, are they not all with us?"
Other Scripture verses which specifically refer to Jesus’ brothers are: Matthew 12:46; John 2:12; John 7:3; Acts 1:14; and Galatians 1:19.
I was always taught that "brothers" and "sisters" were general terms that really could refer to any kind of kinsman, including cousins. This is true in the Hebrew language. However, the New Testament is written in Greek, which is an extremely precise language. It makes a clear distinction between the words used to describe family relationships. There is a Greek word which refers to people who are relatives but not of the immediate family, such as aunts, uncles, nephews, nieces and cousins. There are other Greek words which refer specifically to a person’s brother or sister within a family. (Note 14)
MOTHER OF GOD -- Because she is the mother of Jesus, and Jesus is God, therefore Mary is the Mother of God. ("Catechism" 963, 971, 2677).
The Incarnation means that Jesus was both fully God and fully man. Mary was only the mother of Jesus as man, and not the mother of Jesus as God. According to the Bible, the world was created through Jesus. This was long before Mary was born. Hebrews 1:1-2 says,
"God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds".
Colossians 1:16-17 says,
"For by him [Jesus] were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers; all things [including Mary] were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things [including Mary] , and by him all things consist".
John 8:58 says, "Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, before Abraham was, I am." Jesus existed before Abraham was born. That means that He also existed before Mary was born. In John 17:5, Jesus says, "And now O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was." So Jesus existed even before the world began. Jesus came first -- not Mary.
MOTHER OF THE CHURCH -- Mary is the Mother of the Church. "Catechism" 963, 975).
Acts 1:13-14 gives a picture of a group of people praying together. Mary is mentioned as one of them, but nothing indicates any special prominence.
"And when they were come in, they went up into an upper room, where abode both Peter, and James, and John, and Andrew, Phillip, and Thomas, Bartholomew, and Matthew, James the son of Alphaeus, and Simon Zelotes, and Judas the brother of James. These all continued with one accord in prayer and supplication, with the women, and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with his brethren."
Mary was probably in the Upper Room when the tongues of fire fell upon the 120 disciples. However, she is never mentioned again in the Book of Acts, which is our only historical record of how the Church was born. She is also not specifically identified in the epistles. Paul did send greetings to "Mary", but that was a common name. (In the Gospels and in the Book of Acts, she is referred to as "Mary the mother of Jesus" to distinguish her from other women named Mary.)
It is notable that John, who took Mary into his home after Jesus was crucified, does not mention her in his epistles, and he only mentions her on two occasions in his Gospel (the wedding at Cana and the crucifixion of Jesus). John mentions Mary Magdalene more than he mentions Jesus' mother
Notes: 14
BB adds:
Mary is blessed among women not blessed above women...
She is not a Queen she is not on a throne in heaven.
"There is no biblical reference to the assumption of Mary. The Gospel of John was written around 90 A.D., which is more than 100 years after Mary was born. (Surely Mary was more than ten years old when Jesus was conceived.) If Mary had been supernaturally assumed into Heaven, wouldn't John (the disciple that Mary lived with) have mentioned it? When Enoch and Elijah were taken up to Heaven, the Bible recorded it. With Elijah it was recorded in some detail. (See Genesis 6:24 and 2 Kings 2:1-18.) "
BB adds again:
Catholics are deceived and deceivers they are not Christians or brother and sisters in the Lord. They are lost and need the gospel just as any Mormon or JW.
I am an ex-Catholic. I know what they teach and how they think. It took me 10 years to convert my own mother. She received Christ and was born again two weeks before she died.
I thank God for that! :D
She rejected Roman Catholic teachings. My mother prayed to Mary before her conversion in the belief and hope that she would reach Jesus Christ through her. It was hard for her to believe that Jesus was our advocate. She believed that she could influence Mary and that she would in turn influence her son.
This is only one of the disgusting lies that pagan, idolatrous Rome teaches.
Jesus is for us. He is our advocate and our mediator. We can boldly go before God because He alone has reconciled us to Him through His death, burial and resurrection on the cross.
We don't need his moms permission or her influence.
This is the false Mary of the RCC. An evil devil goddess who claims to point her faithful to Christ while drawing attention to herself.
The Holy Spirit points us to Christ...not the RCC vile perpetual virgin.
John 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:
This type of event along with the rosary and other false Catholic teachings should be rejected.
The bible does not mention it. The scriptures do not tell us to make statues of Mary and bow down to them.
The scriptures do not tell us to pray the rosary. The scriptures do not tell us to pray to the dead.
Here are a few of the deceptions promoted by the RCC
http://www.catholicconcerns.com/MaryWorship.html
Mary Ann Collins
IMMACULATE CONCEPTION -- Mary was preserved from all stain of original sin from the first instant of her conception. ("Catechism" 490-492).
In Luke 1:46-47, Mary said: "My soul doth magnify the Lord, And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour". Mary knew that she needed a savior.
The doctrine of the Immaculate Conception was first introduced by a heretic (a man whose teachings were officially declared to be contrary to Church doctrine). For centuries this doctrine was unanimously rejected by popes, Fathers and theologians of the Catholic Church. (Note 13)
ALL-HOLY -- Mary, "the All-Holy," lived a perfectly sinless life. ("Catechism" 411, 493)
Romans 3:23 says "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God". Revelation 15:4 says, "Who shall not fear thee, O Lord, and glorify thy name? For thou only art holy". Romans 3:10 says, "There is none righteous, no, not one".
Jesus is the only person who is referred to in Scripture as sinless.
Hebrews 4:15 says, "For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feelings of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin." 2 Corinthians 5:21 says, "For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him." 1 Peter 2:22 says, "Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth".
In contrast, Mary said that God is her Savior. (Luke 1:47) If God was her Savior, then Mary was not sinless. Sinless people do not need a Savior.
In the Book of Revelation, when they were searching for someone who was worthy to break the seals and open the scroll, the only person who was found to be worthy was Jesus. Nobody else in Heaven or on earth (including Mary) was worthy to open the scroll or even look inside it.
(Revelation 5:1-5)PERPETUAL VIRGINITY -- Mary was a virgin before, during and after the birth of Christ. ("Catechism" 496-511)
Matthew 1:24-25 says, "Then Joseph being raised from sleep did as the angel of the Lord had bidden him, and took unto him his wife: And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS." "Till" (until) means that after that point, Joseph did "know" (have sexual relations with) Mary. (See Genesis 4:1 where Adam "knew" Eve and she conceived and had a son.)
Jesus had brothers and sisters. The Bible even tells us their names. Matthew 13:54-56 says, "
And when he was come into his own country, he taught them in their synagogue, insomuch that they were astonished, and said, Whence hatch this man this wisdom, and these mighty works? Is not this the carpenter’s son? Is not his mother called Mary? And his brethren, James, and Joses, and Simon, and Judas? And his sisters, are they not all with us?"
Other Scripture verses which specifically refer to Jesus’ brothers are: Matthew 12:46; John 2:12; John 7:3; Acts 1:14; and Galatians 1:19.
I was always taught that "brothers" and "sisters" were general terms that really could refer to any kind of kinsman, including cousins. This is true in the Hebrew language. However, the New Testament is written in Greek, which is an extremely precise language. It makes a clear distinction between the words used to describe family relationships. There is a Greek word which refers to people who are relatives but not of the immediate family, such as aunts, uncles, nephews, nieces and cousins. There are other Greek words which refer specifically to a person’s brother or sister within a family. (Note 14)
MOTHER OF GOD -- Because she is the mother of Jesus, and Jesus is God, therefore Mary is the Mother of God. ("Catechism" 963, 971, 2677).
The Incarnation means that Jesus was both fully God and fully man. Mary was only the mother of Jesus as man, and not the mother of Jesus as God. According to the Bible, the world was created through Jesus. This was long before Mary was born. Hebrews 1:1-2 says,
"God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds".
Colossians 1:16-17 says,
"For by him [Jesus] were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers; all things [including Mary] were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things [including Mary] , and by him all things consist".
John 8:58 says, "Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, before Abraham was, I am." Jesus existed before Abraham was born. That means that He also existed before Mary was born. In John 17:5, Jesus says, "And now O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was." So Jesus existed even before the world began. Jesus came first -- not Mary.
MOTHER OF THE CHURCH -- Mary is the Mother of the Church. "Catechism" 963, 975).
Acts 1:13-14 gives a picture of a group of people praying together. Mary is mentioned as one of them, but nothing indicates any special prominence.
"And when they were come in, they went up into an upper room, where abode both Peter, and James, and John, and Andrew, Phillip, and Thomas, Bartholomew, and Matthew, James the son of Alphaeus, and Simon Zelotes, and Judas the brother of James. These all continued with one accord in prayer and supplication, with the women, and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with his brethren."
Mary was probably in the Upper Room when the tongues of fire fell upon the 120 disciples. However, she is never mentioned again in the Book of Acts, which is our only historical record of how the Church was born. She is also not specifically identified in the epistles. Paul did send greetings to "Mary", but that was a common name. (In the Gospels and in the Book of Acts, she is referred to as "Mary the mother of Jesus" to distinguish her from other women named Mary.)
It is notable that John, who took Mary into his home after Jesus was crucified, does not mention her in his epistles, and he only mentions her on two occasions in his Gospel (the wedding at Cana and the crucifixion of Jesus). John mentions Mary Magdalene more than he mentions Jesus' mother
Notes: 14
BB adds:
Mary is blessed among women not blessed above women...
She is not a Queen she is not on a throne in heaven.
"There is no biblical reference to the assumption of Mary. The Gospel of John was written around 90 A.D., which is more than 100 years after Mary was born. (Surely Mary was more than ten years old when Jesus was conceived.) If Mary had been supernaturally assumed into Heaven, wouldn't John (the disciple that Mary lived with) have mentioned it? When Enoch and Elijah were taken up to Heaven, the Bible recorded it. With Elijah it was recorded in some detail. (See Genesis 6:24 and 2 Kings 2:1-18.) "
BB adds again:
Catholics are deceived and deceivers they are not Christians or brother and sisters in the Lord. They are lost and need the gospel just as any Mormon or JW.
I am an ex-Catholic. I know what they teach and how they think. It took me 10 years to convert my own mother. She received Christ and was born again two weeks before she died.
I thank God for that! :D
She rejected Roman Catholic teachings. My mother prayed to Mary before her conversion in the belief and hope that she would reach Jesus Christ through her. It was hard for her to believe that Jesus was our advocate. She believed that she could influence Mary and that she would in turn influence her son.
This is only one of the disgusting lies that pagan, idolatrous Rome teaches.
Jesus is for us. He is our advocate and our mediator. We can boldly go before God because He alone has reconciled us to Him through His death, burial and resurrection on the cross.
We don't need his moms permission or her influence.
This is the false Mary of the RCC. An evil devil goddess who claims to point her faithful to Christ while drawing attention to herself.
The Holy Spirit points us to Christ...not the RCC vile perpetual virgin.
John 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:
T
thessalonian
Guest
BB,
Why don't you focus a bit and admit that Mary Ann Collins, Hank Hanagraph, and William Webster are all wrong about using "Tracates of the Assumption of Mary" as a proof that the Catholic Church has rejected and then accepted the Assumption of Mary. Please respond to my last post in detail as to why the logic is not in fact false and they have proven nothing with this theory. If you guys cannot be honest with the details how can you be honest with the big picture. Why don't you allow yourself to question Mary AC's website. Show your objectivity in all of this and that your not blindly following Protestant "Scholars".
By the way have you gone to my thread about Mary being the most blessed of all women and more blessed than all but one man yet. I think it was you who said she was only blessed AMONG women as just equally blessed as the rest.
I am really interested to see if you can think outside of your cut and pastes. So far all I see is alot of anti-catholic rhethoric from you. The Gospel of Anti-CAtholicism.
blessings
Why don't you focus a bit and admit that Mary Ann Collins, Hank Hanagraph, and William Webster are all wrong about using "Tracates of the Assumption of Mary" as a proof that the Catholic Church has rejected and then accepted the Assumption of Mary. Please respond to my last post in detail as to why the logic is not in fact false and they have proven nothing with this theory. If you guys cannot be honest with the details how can you be honest with the big picture. Why don't you allow yourself to question Mary AC's website. Show your objectivity in all of this and that your not blindly following Protestant "Scholars".
By the way have you gone to my thread about Mary being the most blessed of all women and more blessed than all but one man yet. I think it was you who said she was only blessed AMONG women as just equally blessed as the rest.
I am really interested to see if you can think outside of your cut and pastes. So far all I see is alot of anti-catholic rhethoric from you. The Gospel of Anti-CAtholicism.
blessings
B
bibleberean
Guest
The Catholic Church has a false gospel. Should it be any surprise that they would have a false goddess to replace Mary?
The following is from an "approved" Catholic website. The following contains a message with another gospel.This is not a message from the Lord Jesus Christ of the bible. This is from"another Jesus"!
The Five Promises
To those faithful who Honor The Drops of Blood Jesus Lost
"To all the faithful who shall recite for 3 years, each day 2 Paters, Glorias and Aves, in honor of the drops of blood I lost, I will concede the following 5 graces:
1. "The plenary indulgence and remittance of your sins."
2. "You will be free from the pains of Purgatory."
3. "If you should die before completing the said 3 years, for you it will be the same as if you had completed them."
4. "It will be upon your death the same as if you had shed all your blood for the Holy Faith."
5. "I will descend from Heaven to take your soul and that of your relatives, until the fourth generation."
Part of a true letter of Our Saviour Jesus Christ, kept in a silver box in the Church of The Holy Sepulchre of Our Lord Jesus Christ in Jerusalem
Make no mistake! The above is a lie from Satan!
We are not saved by Rome's Occult rituals!
Website of the harlot Church! Beware!
http://7dolors.com/page8passion.htm
After visiting this page be sure to check out my page on the false Mary that Rome promotes!
http://kjvbible.5u.com/custom4.html
The following is from an "approved" Catholic website. The following contains a message with another gospel.This is not a message from the Lord Jesus Christ of the bible. This is from"another Jesus"!
The Five Promises
To those faithful who Honor The Drops of Blood Jesus Lost
"To all the faithful who shall recite for 3 years, each day 2 Paters, Glorias and Aves, in honor of the drops of blood I lost, I will concede the following 5 graces:
1. "The plenary indulgence and remittance of your sins."
2. "You will be free from the pains of Purgatory."
3. "If you should die before completing the said 3 years, for you it will be the same as if you had completed them."
4. "It will be upon your death the same as if you had shed all your blood for the Holy Faith."
5. "I will descend from Heaven to take your soul and that of your relatives, until the fourth generation."
Part of a true letter of Our Saviour Jesus Christ, kept in a silver box in the Church of The Holy Sepulchre of Our Lord Jesus Christ in Jerusalem
Make no mistake! The above is a lie from Satan!
We are not saved by Rome's Occult rituals!
Website of the harlot Church! Beware!
http://7dolors.com/page8passion.htm
After visiting this page be sure to check out my page on the false Mary that Rome promotes!
http://kjvbible.5u.com/custom4.html
T
thessalonian
Guest
BB,
Why don't you focus a bit and admit that Mary Ann Collins, Hank Hanagraph, and William Webster are all wrong about using "Tracates of the Assumption of Mary" as a proof that the Catholic Church has rejected and then accepted the Assumption of Mary. Please respond to my last post in detail as to why the logic is not in fact false and they have proven nothing with this theory. If you guys cannot be honest with the details how can you be honest with the big picture. Why don't you allow yourself to question Mary AC's website. Show your objectivity in all of this and that your not blindly following Protestant "Scholars".
By the way have you gone to my thread about Mary being the most blessed of all women and more blessed than all but one man yet. I think it was you who said she was only blessed AMONG women as just equally blessed as the rest.
I am really interested to see if you can think outside of your cut and pastes. So far all I see is alot of anti-catholic rhethoric from you. The Gospel of Anti-CAtholicism.
blessings
_________________
"Peter you are my rock, and on this Rock I will build my Church, and the gates of Hell shall not prevail. Matt 16:18
Prov 18
[17] He who states his case first seems right,
until the other comes and examines him.
Why don't you focus a bit and admit that Mary Ann Collins, Hank Hanagraph, and William Webster are all wrong about using "Tracates of the Assumption of Mary" as a proof that the Catholic Church has rejected and then accepted the Assumption of Mary. Please respond to my last post in detail as to why the logic is not in fact false and they have proven nothing with this theory. If you guys cannot be honest with the details how can you be honest with the big picture. Why don't you allow yourself to question Mary AC's website. Show your objectivity in all of this and that your not blindly following Protestant "Scholars".
By the way have you gone to my thread about Mary being the most blessed of all women and more blessed than all but one man yet. I think it was you who said she was only blessed AMONG women as just equally blessed as the rest.
I am really interested to see if you can think outside of your cut and pastes. So far all I see is alot of anti-catholic rhethoric from you. The Gospel of Anti-CAtholicism.
blessings
_________________
"Peter you are my rock, and on this Rock I will build my Church, and the gates of Hell shall not prevail. Matt 16:18
Prov 18
[17] He who states his case first seems right,
until the other comes and examines him.
B
bibleberean
Guest
Quoted from the following Web site...
http://www.catholicconcerns.com/MaryWorship-Notes.html
DEVOTION TO MARY
Mary Ann Collins
If you want to see what a person's real priorities are, then watch what they do when their life, or the life of a loved one, is in danger.
When Pope John Paul II was shot, while the ambulance was rushing him to the hospital, the Pope was not praying to God or calling on the name of Jesus. He kept saying, over and over: "Mary, my mother!" Polish pilgrims placed a picture of Our Lady of Czestochowa on the throne where the Pope normally sat.
People gathered around the picture. Vatican loudspeakers broadcasted the prayers of the rosary. When the Pope recovered, he gave Mary all the glory for saving his life, and he made a pilgrimage to Fatima to publicly thank her. (Note 4)
Jesus said, "Where your treasure is there will your heart be also." (Luke 12:34)
Some statues of Mary have real crowns made of gold. The web sites listed in the Notes show pictures of statues of Our Lady of Fatima and Our Lady of Lourdes wearing crowns. (Note 5) The statues in the pictures are replicas, and their crowns are ceramic and painted gold. But the crowns on the original statues at Fatima and Lourdes are real crowns made of real gold.
Vast sums of money are spent on some special statues of Mary. For example, the statue of Our Lady of the Pillar in Saragossa, Spain has a crown made of 25 pounds of gold and diamonds, with so many diamonds that you can hardly see the gold. In addition, it has six other crowns of gold, diamonds and emeralds. It has 365 mantles which are embroidered with gold and covered with roses of diamonds and other precious stones. It has 365 necklaces made of pearls and diamonds, and six chains of gold set with diamonds. (Note 6)
In Sabana Grande, Puerto Rico, preparations are underway to construct a huge statue of Our Lady of the Rosary.
Inside the base of the statue there will be chapels, conference rooms, apartments, a food court, and radio and TV stations.
There will also be observation decks. This statue will be part of a 500-acre "Mystical City" complex. According to an article in "Caribbean Business," this statue "will top at 1,500 feet".
According to an article by the Associated Press, the statue will be 305 feet high. (Note 7) The discrepancy in numbers can be explained by looking at the Statue of Liberty, which is a 151 foot statue on top of a 154 foot base. Some sources say that the Statue of Liberty is 305 feet high (which includes the height of the base) and some say that it is 151 feet high (which is the height of the actual statue). What we probably have in Sabana Grande is a 305 foot statue with a 1,200 foot base.
I have personally participated in American processions which honored Mary. We walked through the streets following a statue of Mary which was carried on a platform, high up where it was clearly visible. We sang songs in Mary’s honor. We prayed rosaries and other prayers to her. These were small processions. At Fatima, Portugal, crowds of over a million people gather on the anniversary of the apparition of Our Lady of Fatima. The celebration includes a procession of a million people following a statue of Mary and singing her praises. (Note 8)
4. James G. McCarthy, "The Gospel According to Rome: Comparing Catholic Tradition and the Word of God," pp. 181-184; 199-200.
5. http://www.pacificheritage.com/images/P ... hild22.JPG
http://www.pacificheritage.com/images/P ... imag45.JPG
http://www.pacificheritage.com/images/Products/Lo90.JPG
6. Dave Hunt, "A Woman Rides the Beast," pages 239-240.
7. Steve Beauclair, "Skyscraper statue slated for Sabana Grande; $42 million Virgin Mary part of Mystical City," "Caribbean Business," February 26, 1998 (Late News cover story). James Anderson (Associated Press), "Giant statue of Mary part of shrine plan," " Lexington Herald-Leader," July 17, 1999. This article is available on-line at http://www.kentuckyconnect.com/heraldle ... rine17.htm
Steve Beauclair’s article is quoted in James Tetlow, "Messages from Heaven," Chapter 1. (I read a pre-publication manuscript and therefore don’t know what page this information will occur on when the book is published.)
8. James Tetlow, "Messages from Heaven," Chapter 1.
BB adds:
This idolatrous devotion is a far cry from what the Lord commanded us...
Lev 19:4 Turn ye not unto idols, nor make to yourselves molten gods: I am the LORD your God.
Lev 26:1 Ye shall make you no idols nor graven image, neither rear you up a standing image, neither shall ye set up any image of stone in your land, to bow down unto it: for I am the LORD your God.
I urge everyone to watch the following free on line video. If you want to understand the extent of Catholic devotion to their false goddess this is a must see.
http://www.creationists.org/MessagesFro ... glish.html
http://www.catholicconcerns.com/MaryWorship-Notes.html
DEVOTION TO MARY
Mary Ann Collins
If you want to see what a person's real priorities are, then watch what they do when their life, or the life of a loved one, is in danger.
When Pope John Paul II was shot, while the ambulance was rushing him to the hospital, the Pope was not praying to God or calling on the name of Jesus. He kept saying, over and over: "Mary, my mother!" Polish pilgrims placed a picture of Our Lady of Czestochowa on the throne where the Pope normally sat.
People gathered around the picture. Vatican loudspeakers broadcasted the prayers of the rosary. When the Pope recovered, he gave Mary all the glory for saving his life, and he made a pilgrimage to Fatima to publicly thank her. (Note 4)
Jesus said, "Where your treasure is there will your heart be also." (Luke 12:34)
Some statues of Mary have real crowns made of gold. The web sites listed in the Notes show pictures of statues of Our Lady of Fatima and Our Lady of Lourdes wearing crowns. (Note 5) The statues in the pictures are replicas, and their crowns are ceramic and painted gold. But the crowns on the original statues at Fatima and Lourdes are real crowns made of real gold.
Vast sums of money are spent on some special statues of Mary. For example, the statue of Our Lady of the Pillar in Saragossa, Spain has a crown made of 25 pounds of gold and diamonds, with so many diamonds that you can hardly see the gold. In addition, it has six other crowns of gold, diamonds and emeralds. It has 365 mantles which are embroidered with gold and covered with roses of diamonds and other precious stones. It has 365 necklaces made of pearls and diamonds, and six chains of gold set with diamonds. (Note 6)
In Sabana Grande, Puerto Rico, preparations are underway to construct a huge statue of Our Lady of the Rosary.
Inside the base of the statue there will be chapels, conference rooms, apartments, a food court, and radio and TV stations.
There will also be observation decks. This statue will be part of a 500-acre "Mystical City" complex. According to an article in "Caribbean Business," this statue "will top at 1,500 feet".
According to an article by the Associated Press, the statue will be 305 feet high. (Note 7) The discrepancy in numbers can be explained by looking at the Statue of Liberty, which is a 151 foot statue on top of a 154 foot base. Some sources say that the Statue of Liberty is 305 feet high (which includes the height of the base) and some say that it is 151 feet high (which is the height of the actual statue). What we probably have in Sabana Grande is a 305 foot statue with a 1,200 foot base.
I have personally participated in American processions which honored Mary. We walked through the streets following a statue of Mary which was carried on a platform, high up where it was clearly visible. We sang songs in Mary’s honor. We prayed rosaries and other prayers to her. These were small processions. At Fatima, Portugal, crowds of over a million people gather on the anniversary of the apparition of Our Lady of Fatima. The celebration includes a procession of a million people following a statue of Mary and singing her praises. (Note 8)
4. James G. McCarthy, "The Gospel According to Rome: Comparing Catholic Tradition and the Word of God," pp. 181-184; 199-200.
5. http://www.pacificheritage.com/images/P ... hild22.JPG
http://www.pacificheritage.com/images/P ... imag45.JPG
http://www.pacificheritage.com/images/Products/Lo90.JPG
6. Dave Hunt, "A Woman Rides the Beast," pages 239-240.
7. Steve Beauclair, "Skyscraper statue slated for Sabana Grande; $42 million Virgin Mary part of Mystical City," "Caribbean Business," February 26, 1998 (Late News cover story). James Anderson (Associated Press), "Giant statue of Mary part of shrine plan," " Lexington Herald-Leader," July 17, 1999. This article is available on-line at http://www.kentuckyconnect.com/heraldle ... rine17.htm
Steve Beauclair’s article is quoted in James Tetlow, "Messages from Heaven," Chapter 1. (I read a pre-publication manuscript and therefore don’t know what page this information will occur on when the book is published.)
8. James Tetlow, "Messages from Heaven," Chapter 1.
BB adds:
This idolatrous devotion is a far cry from what the Lord commanded us...
Lev 19:4 Turn ye not unto idols, nor make to yourselves molten gods: I am the LORD your God.
Lev 26:1 Ye shall make you no idols nor graven image, neither rear you up a standing image, neither shall ye set up any image of stone in your land, to bow down unto it: for I am the LORD your God.
I urge everyone to watch the following free on line video. If you want to understand the extent of Catholic devotion to their false goddess this is a must see.
http://www.creationists.org/MessagesFro ... glish.html
T
thessalonian
Guest
http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/1993/9301fea3.asp
Is it really idolatry?
Those who have only a little knowledge easily become pedants and love to correct others who (they rashly judge) know even less than they. But just as the Imitation of Christ says, "I would rather feel contrition than know how to define it," so I praise people who love our Lady and express their love with sincere feeling and enthusiasm, even though their vocabulary of praise may be theologically inaccurate. God sees their hearts, and Mary unites them to our Savior, however poorly they express themselves.
Next, what is idolatry? Paul describes it as bartering or exchanging the true, glorious, and immortal God for a lie, paying latria (he uses the very word) to a creature rather than to the Creator (Rom. 1:23, 25). Catholics do no such thing. Rather we know and daily experience that the saints, and most of all our Blessed Mother, instruct and edify us by the example of their Christlike lives. Everyone of them says to us, as Paul said, "Be imitators of me" (1 Cor. 4:16; see also Phil. 3:17, 1 Thess. 1:6). Like Paul again, the saints and angels are saying to us, "We pray to God that you may not do evil. . . that you may do what is right" (2 Cor. 13:7); "we always pray for you" (2 Thess. 1:11). Our veneration and prayer to Mary and others in heaven redound to the glory of God, whose children we all are. If we neglected to pray to them, we would deny God the glory, praise, and gratitude we owe him for so exalting our brothers and sisters.
But CRI asserts, " Religious devotion to anyone but God is idolatrous. This is the verdict of Scripture."126 This rather is the caricature of Scripture, a cartoon of the Word of God. Scripture bids us make every action, every penance and pain, every day, acts of religious devotion, fruitful for our own salvation and the salvation of others: "So whether you eat or drink, or whatever else you do, do everything for the glory of God" (1 Cor. 10:31); "Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I am filling up what is lacking in the afflictions of Christ, on behalf of his Body, which is the Church" (CoI.1:24; see also 2 Cor. 1:3- 7).
Romans 13:1-7 teaches us to revere and obey legitimate authority (even the IRS!), because all authority comes from God. Whoever opposes this authority resists God. Thus civic duty and filial piety toward parents, if well understood, are forms of religious devotion, commanded by God to be paid to human beings. Indeed, the Lord specified this when he gave Moses the Fourth Commandment "Honor your father and your mother" (Ex. 20:12).
Psalm 72 is divinely-inspired Scripture. With God's full warranty, therefore, the psalm expresses religious devotion (one is tempted here to be wry and to say excessive devotion) to a human monarch of Israel. This psalm, of course, is messianic and will find its final fulfillment only in Christ the King, but, in its first and original meaning, it was used in Temple worship as religious devotion to an earthly king.
Jacob, meeting his older brother Esau after a separation of several years, said to him, "To come into your presence is for me like coming into the presence of God!" (Gen. 33:10). (Oh, would that those naughty Latin Catholics might behave themselves and use only sober and restrained biblical language as the Patriarch Jacob does!)
To feed, clothe, visit, and shelter the needy are acts of religious devotion to God (Matt. 19:16-21,25:31-36, Gal. 6:2). We are habitually to see God in other people. In fact, by percentage, very little of a Christian's time is likely to be spent directly communing with God. We live out our love for God by loving and serving one another (Matt. 25:31-36, Jas. 2:14-17).
Is it really idolatry?
Those who have only a little knowledge easily become pedants and love to correct others who (they rashly judge) know even less than they. But just as the Imitation of Christ says, "I would rather feel contrition than know how to define it," so I praise people who love our Lady and express their love with sincere feeling and enthusiasm, even though their vocabulary of praise may be theologically inaccurate. God sees their hearts, and Mary unites them to our Savior, however poorly they express themselves.
Next, what is idolatry? Paul describes it as bartering or exchanging the true, glorious, and immortal God for a lie, paying latria (he uses the very word) to a creature rather than to the Creator (Rom. 1:23, 25). Catholics do no such thing. Rather we know and daily experience that the saints, and most of all our Blessed Mother, instruct and edify us by the example of their Christlike lives. Everyone of them says to us, as Paul said, "Be imitators of me" (1 Cor. 4:16; see also Phil. 3:17, 1 Thess. 1:6). Like Paul again, the saints and angels are saying to us, "We pray to God that you may not do evil. . . that you may do what is right" (2 Cor. 13:7); "we always pray for you" (2 Thess. 1:11). Our veneration and prayer to Mary and others in heaven redound to the glory of God, whose children we all are. If we neglected to pray to them, we would deny God the glory, praise, and gratitude we owe him for so exalting our brothers and sisters.
But CRI asserts, " Religious devotion to anyone but God is idolatrous. This is the verdict of Scripture."126 This rather is the caricature of Scripture, a cartoon of the Word of God. Scripture bids us make every action, every penance and pain, every day, acts of religious devotion, fruitful for our own salvation and the salvation of others: "So whether you eat or drink, or whatever else you do, do everything for the glory of God" (1 Cor. 10:31); "Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I am filling up what is lacking in the afflictions of Christ, on behalf of his Body, which is the Church" (CoI.1:24; see also 2 Cor. 1:3- 7).
Romans 13:1-7 teaches us to revere and obey legitimate authority (even the IRS!), because all authority comes from God. Whoever opposes this authority resists God. Thus civic duty and filial piety toward parents, if well understood, are forms of religious devotion, commanded by God to be paid to human beings. Indeed, the Lord specified this when he gave Moses the Fourth Commandment "Honor your father and your mother" (Ex. 20:12).
Psalm 72 is divinely-inspired Scripture. With God's full warranty, therefore, the psalm expresses religious devotion (one is tempted here to be wry and to say excessive devotion) to a human monarch of Israel. This psalm, of course, is messianic and will find its final fulfillment only in Christ the King, but, in its first and original meaning, it was used in Temple worship as religious devotion to an earthly king.
Jacob, meeting his older brother Esau after a separation of several years, said to him, "To come into your presence is for me like coming into the presence of God!" (Gen. 33:10). (Oh, would that those naughty Latin Catholics might behave themselves and use only sober and restrained biblical language as the Patriarch Jacob does!)
To feed, clothe, visit, and shelter the needy are acts of religious devotion to God (Matt. 19:16-21,25:31-36, Gal. 6:2). We are habitually to see God in other people. In fact, by percentage, very little of a Christian's time is likely to be spent directly communing with God. We live out our love for God by loving and serving one another (Matt. 25:31-36, Jas. 2:14-17).
T
Theophilus
Guest
bibleberean, can you tell me where you found this picture?
G
Gendou Ikari
Guest
T
Theophilus
Guest
Thank you, but do you know if it is of catholic origin or of anti-catholic origin?
The site you gave was definitely anti-catholic, and i would like to know if that picture is catholic or was just put together by that site to prove THEIR point.
The site you gave was definitely anti-catholic, and i would like to know if that picture is catholic or was just put together by that site to prove THEIR point.
O
Orthodox Christian
Guest
The original painting is of an origin I cannot ascertain. What I can ascertain is that the original DID NOT have the words "Mary, Co-redemptrix," etc on it.
Alongside this image, at the site I found it at, is found the following description:
http://www.celt.net
This picture has been passed off by Bibleberean as if it came from the Vatican.
The painting without words in it can be found at Piney.com, a site for those who froth at the mouth at everything and anything. Go check it out and see what happened to all the guys who took LSD for the US Army- they now run a Fundie site.
They pass this off as if it is Catholic in the most strict sense.
And I have now pwned them in a big way.
Think of the level of charlatanism that it takes to add words to a painting and then label it "Catholic." The question here is does BB know that the painting was thus altered? Or is he the blameless dupe of the Fundie overlords?
They too are now pwned for being shameless liars and frauds.
Now one must ask: If Catholics are such profligate idolaters, why is it necessary to alter and fraudelently represent their theology?
And who would do such in 'defense of the truth?'
Lying to defend the truth? That is not of any Spirit I wish to associate with.
James
Alongside this image, at the site I found it at, is found the following description:
The alleged 'Catholic' source of these words is a non-existent page from a Celtic site devoted to legends and myths.
http://www.celt.net
This picture has been passed off by Bibleberean as if it came from the Vatican.
The painting without words in it can be found at Piney.com, a site for those who froth at the mouth at everything and anything. Go check it out and see what happened to all the guys who took LSD for the US Army- they now run a Fundie site.
They pass this off as if it is Catholic in the most strict sense.
And I have now pwned them in a big way.
Think of the level of charlatanism that it takes to add words to a painting and then label it "Catholic." The question here is does BB know that the painting was thus altered? Or is he the blameless dupe of the Fundie overlords?
They too are now pwned for being shameless liars and frauds.
Now one must ask: If Catholics are such profligate idolaters, why is it necessary to alter and fraudelently represent their theology?
And who would do such in 'defense of the truth?'
Lying to defend the truth? That is not of any Spirit I wish to associate with.
James
D
DivineNames
Guest
Orthodox Christian said:The original painting is of an origin I cannot ascertain. What I can ascertain is that the original DID NOT have the words "Mary, Co-redemptrix," etc on it.
Alongside this image, at the site I found it at, is found the following description:
The alleged 'Catholic' source of these words is a non-existent page from a Celtic site devoted to legends and myths.
http://www.celt.net
This picture has been passed off by Bibleberean as if it came from the Vatican.
The painting without words in it can be found at Piney.com, a site for those who froth at the mouth at everything and anything. Go check it out and see what happened to all the guys who took LSD for the US Army- they now run a Fundie site.
They pass this off as if it is Catholic in the most strict sense.
And I have now pwned them in a big way.
Think of the level of charlatanism that it takes to add words to a painting and then label it "Catholic." The question here is does BB know that the painting was thus altered? Or is he the blameless dupe of the Fundie overlords?
They too are now pwned for being shameless liars and frauds.
Now one must ask: If Catholics are such profligate idolaters, why is it necessary to alter and fraudelently represent their theology?
And who would do such in 'defense of the truth?'
Lying to defend the truth? That is not of any Spirit I wish to associate with.
James
Fundamentalism... the spiritual equivalent of a lobotomy...
C
CatholicXian
Guest
Another thing about BB's picture that makes me wonder about its authenticity and "catholic" origin is the number of wounds pictured on the heart... it may seem like a trivial thing to notice, but the number is different than Catholic theology would posit.
F
fiat
Guest
Also the fact that Mary's hands are marked with the stigmata...I have never seen that before in Catholic art.
T
thessalonian
Guest
For all you Catholics, while there is a certain amount of suspision regarding the picture, I think there is a context in which it would be appropriate as depicted. I have spoken of this on this page in this thread.
http://www.christianforums.net/viewtopi ... &start=165
It's in respon to lyric's dad, about 2/3 of the way down the page.
http://www.christianforums.net/viewtopi ... &start=165
It's in respon to lyric's dad, about 2/3 of the way down the page.
L
Lyric's Dad
Guest
DV, I am a fundamentalist and I take offense at your comment. I would advise you to keep from personal insults on this board.DivineNames said:
O
Orthodox Christian
Guest
Fair enough- shall we then apply this reasoning to those Fundies on this board who label Catholics and Orthodox "devil worshippers?"Lyric's Dad said:
You see, I find that highly offensive as well, and it seems to me that what applies to one should apply to all...don't you think?