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The Virgin of the Lilies

Orthodox Christian said:
[quote="Lyric's Dad":687a5]
DivineNames said:
Fundamentalism... the spiritual equivalent of a lobotomy...
DV, I am a fundamentalist and I take offense at your comment. I would advise you to keep from personal insults on this board.
Fair enough- shall we then apply this reasoning to those Fundies on this board who label Catholics and Orthodox "devil worshippers?"

You see, I find that highly offensive as well, and it seems to me that what applies to one should apply to all...don't you think?[/quote:687a5]I absolutely do agree with you. I for one would not call you that and I think that all the name calling should cease entirely. When we cannot debate without such tactics it only shows ignorance. I also think the name "fundy" is derogatory. Maybe if we all showed eachother "Christian" kindness, we would all be able to take one another more seriously and actually hear the message instead of the attack. While I think that the messages being given are of importance and need to be discussed, some of the tactics leave much to be desired.
 
I have never seen a picture of Mary like that before. It is bad theology in my opinion.
 
Lyric's Dad said:
[quote="Orthodox Christian":f2077][quote="Lyric's Dad":f2077]
DivineNames said:
Fundamentalism... the spiritual equivalent of a lobotomy...
DV, I am a fundamentalist and I take offense at your comment. I would advise you to keep from personal insults on this board.
Fair enough- shall we then apply this reasoning to those Fundies on this board who label Catholics and Orthodox "devil worshippers?"

You see, I find that highly offensive as well, and it seems to me that what applies to one should apply to all...don't you think?[/quote:f2077]I absolutely do agree with you. I for one would not call you that and I think that all the name calling should cease entirely. When we cannot debate without such tactics it only shows ignorance. I also think the name "fundy" is derogatory. Maybe if we all showed eachother "Christian" kindness, we would all be able to take one another more seriously and actually hear the message instead of the attack. While I think that the messages being given are of importance and need to be discussed, some of the tactics leave much to be desired.[/quote:f2077]


Well I have seen plenty of comments about non-Christians which could be found offensive. "Atheists are all fools", "Hindu's are devil worshippers" etc.

Should Christian kindness extend to these people?

I suppose someone could say, "its in the Bible", to defend having made these comments. But then, the fact that its in the Bible, doesn't mean that someone has to repeatly post such things. So, should Christian kindness extend to atheists and other non-Christians?
 
DivineNames said:
Lyric's Dad said:
[quote="Orthodox Christian":dbf28][quote="Lyric's Dad":dbf28]
DivineNames said:
Fundamentalism... the spiritual equivalent of a lobotomy...
DV, I am a fundamentalist and I take offense at your comment. I would advise you to keep from personal insults on this board.
Fair enough- shall we then apply this reasoning to those Fundies on this board who label Catholics and Orthodox "devil worshippers?"

You see, I find that highly offensive as well, and it seems to me that what applies to one should apply to all...don't you think?
I absolutely do agree with you. I for one would not call you that and I think that all the name calling should cease entirely. When we cannot debate without such tactics it only shows ignorance. I also think the name "fundy" is derogatory. Maybe if we all showed eachother "Christian" kindness, we would all be able to take one another more seriously and actually hear the message instead of the attack. While I think that the messages being given are of importance and need to be discussed, some of the tactics leave much to be desired.[/quote:dbf28]


Well I have seen plenty of comments about non-Christians which could be found offensive. "Atheists are all fools", "Hindu's are devil worshippers" etc.

Should Christian kindness extend to these people?

I suppose someone could say, "its in the Bible", to defend having made these comments. But then, the fact that its in the Bible, doesn't mean that someone has to repeatly post such things. So, should Christian kindness extend to atheists and other non-Christians?[/quote:dbf28]I would say we only need look as far as Jesus for the answer to this. Of course we should be kind and loving to atheists as well. Why the heck would they ever even consider Jesus if they were accosted by His followers? No, I don't think that being rude is going to do us any good regardless the recipient.
 
Excellent responses, LD, glad to have you modding this forum and this thread in particular.
James
 
Orthodox Christian said:
Excellent responses, LD, glad to have you modding this forum and this thread in particular.
James
While I appreciate the kind words, I don't actually mod this forum. Just a brother here for a chat and hoping we can all do it in a way that would please Jesus. I am glad that others feel the same, regardless where they choose to hang their hat on Sunday.

God bless OC.
 
Catholics can claim they think the painting is "bad theology but their Popes disagree...

Leo XIII, Jucunda Semper, 1894:

"When Mary offered herself completely to God together with her Son in the temple, she was already sharing with him the painful atonement on behalf of the human race ... (at the foot of cross) she willingly offered him up to the divine justice, dying with him in her heart, pierced by the sword of sorrow."


Pius X, Ad Diem Illum, 1904

"Owing to the union of suffering and purpose existing between Christ and Mary, she merited to become most worthily the reparatrix of the lost world, and for this reason, the dispenser of ALL favors which Jesus acquired for us by his death . . .

Mary is not the dispenser of "all favors"!

Lie from hell!

Ephesians 4:7-8 But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ. Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.

Mary did not share in our atonement!

She sorrowed and her heart felt the pain of His death but there is not a single scripture to suggest she obtained or share in our salvation.

That is the lowest lie of all.

Hebrews 1:3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

Benedict XV, Inter Sodalicia, 1918

"To such extent did Mary suffer and almost die with her suffering and dying Son; to such extent did she surrender her maternal rights over her Son for : man's salvation . . that we may rightly say she redeemed the human race together with Christ."

Plus XI, 1935, in a prayer to close a jubilee

"O Mother of love and mercy who, when thy sweetest Son was consummating the Redemption of the human race on in the altar of the cross, didst stand next to him suffering with him as a Coredemptrix."

Plus XII, in a radio broadcast in 1946

"Mary, for having been associated with the King of Martyrs in the ineffable work of human Redemption as Mother and cooperatrix, she remains forever associated with him, with an almost unlimited power, in the distribution of graces which flow from the Redemption."

John XXIII, Vatican II's Lumen Gentium, 1965.

Paul VI, Christi Matri. "The Church ... been accustomed to have recourse to that most ready intercessor, her Mother Mary ... For as St. Irenaeus says, she 'has become the cause of salvation for the whole human race"

John Paul II, Mother of the Redeemer, 1987.

Pius IX, Ubi Primum, 1849:

"For God has committed to Mary the treasury of all good things, in order that everyone may know that THROUGH HER are obtained every hope, every grace, and ALL SALVATION. For this is his will, that we obtain everything through Mary."

That is a lying sack of every form of dung!

We obtain everything from Christ not the harlot devil goddess!

Leo XIII, Supremi Apostolatus, 1883:

"O Mary, the guardian of our peace and the dispensatrix of heavenly graces."

Plus X, Ad Diem Illum, 1904:

"It was granted to the august Virgin to be together with her Only-begotten Son the most powerful Mediatrix and Conciliatrix of the whole world. So Christ is the source . . . Mary, however, as St. Bernard justly remarks, is the channel, or she is the neck by which the Body is united to the Head... through which ALL spiritual gifts are communicated to his Body."

Jesus is God's only begotten Son! Show me a single scripture where that title is given to Mary!

Benedict XV, In a decree on Joan of Are:

"In every miracle we must recognize the mediation of Mary, through whom, according to God's will, every grace and blessing comes to us."

Pig swill!

Plus XI, Miserentissimus Redemptor, 1928:

"Confiding in her intercession with Jesus, "the one Mediator of God and man, who wished to associate his own Mother with himself as the advocate of sinners, as the dispenser and mediatrix of grace."

Plus XII, Superiore Anno, 1940: "As St. Bernard declares, 'it is the will of God that we obtain favors through Mary, let everyone hasten to have recourse to Mary."

John XXIII, see Vatican II, Lumen Gentium.

Paul VI, see Lumen Gentium.

John Paul II, Dives in Misericordia, 1980, quoting Lumen Gentium, "In fact, by being assumed into heaven she has not laid aside the office of salvation but by the manifold intercession she continues to obtain for us the grace of eternal salvation."

Jesus has obtained salvation for us. We don't need Catholic idols to get salvation for us!

Hebrews 9:12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

I maintain that the Catholic churches are lying, excuse making churches of Satan! They are filled with their idols and superstitious slop.

Spurgeon sums it up very well.

"It is the bounden duty of every Christian to pray against Antichrist, and as to what Antichrist is no sane man ought to raise a question. If it be not the Popery in the Church of Rome there is nothing in the world that can be called by that name.

It wounds Christ, robs Christ of His glory, puts sacramental efficacy in the place of His atonement, and lifts a piece of bread in the place of the Saviour....If we pray against it, because it is against Him, we shall love the persons though we hate their errors; we shall love their souls, though we loathe and detest their dogmas...."

C. H Spurgeon (All Roads Lead To Rome, Dorcheste House, 1991, pg. 183).

See this website. Look at the blasphemous painting of Mary with the earth as her footstool standing in front of the cross.!

http://www.christendom-awake.org/pages/ ... n/loan.htm

:smt078 :smt078 :smt078 :smt078
 
http://www.newadvent.org/library/almanac_thisrock92.htm





You published an article called "Mary, Ark of the Covenant," in which the writer attempted to convince his readers that Mary should be venerated. I'd like to draw your attention to 1 Samuel 4, where we see that the nation of Israel put their faith in the Ark of the Covenant (like Catholics do in Mary), instead of in the true and living God. This was the reason for their destruction. They had turned from God to idols. I believe that millions of Catholics worship Mary in the same way Israel worshiped the ark of the covenant. If, as you claim, Mary is the "ark of the new covenant," I'm not sure that's something you should be proud of.

It's surprising how many biblical errors and false assumptions are present in your question. For starters, read 1 Samuel 4 again. It nowhere says that the people of Israel "placed their faith" in the ark instead of in God. Nor does it say they worshiped the ark as an idol, as you imply. In reality, the Israelites knew that when they went into battle with the ark they always won. This was due to God's protection. The ark became a strategic weapon for them.

The Catholic Church doesn't teach "Mary worship," nor do Catholics place their faith in Mary instead of God. To say they do advertises your ignorance of Catholic teaching (or, if you know better, your willingness to propagate a lie).

Then there's your attempt to hijack 1 Samuel 4 as a way to refute the thesis that the ark of the covenant imagery parallels Mary's role in salvation history. Surely you don't mean to imply that, because the people of Israel abused their God-given gift of the ark, somehow the ark itself is to blame or that it should be discarded because of such abuse? That's poor logic and bad theology.

Would you be willing to apply that principle in other biblical situations? Probably not. After all, the apostle John was (however mildly) guilty of idolatry when he fell prostrate and worshiped an angel (Rev. 19:9-11). Should we then shun angels? Should we discount John's authority as an apostle? Should we disregard Revelation because it was written by a self-accused idolater? Of course not.

The fact that some people abuse God's gifts is no reason to reject God's gifts. If an individual Catholic is guilty of worshiping Mary, that's his sin, not her fault.
 
Catholics place their faith in Mary and turn to her for protection. Anyone who says otherwise is living in a total state of denial...

Consecration to the Blessed Virgin

"Most Holy Virgin Mary, tender Mother of all, to fulfill the desires of the Sacred Heart and the request of the Vicar of your Son on earth, we consecrate ourselves and our families to your Sorrowful and Immaculate Heart, O Queen of the Most Holy Rosary, and we recommend to you, all the people of our country and all the world.
Please accept our consecration, dearest Mother, and use us as you wish to accomplish your designs upon the world"...


Pope Pius XII (1876-1958)
(Pontiff 1939-1958)

The Essential Mary Handbook : a summary of beliefs, practices, and prayers : with a glossary of key terms and cross-referenced to the Catechism of the Catholic Church / [edited and compiled by Judith A. Bauer] Imprint Liguori, Mo. : Liguori Publications, c1999, BX2160.2 .E88 1999 , pp. 107

Dont' hand me the "we don't worship Mary" garbage...

fatimacrowdsm.jpg


Isaiah 46:7 They bear him upon the shoulder, they carry him, and set him in his place, and he standeth; from his place shall he not remove: yea, one shall cry unto him, yet can he not answer, nor save him out of his trouble.



The blasphemous prayers and actions of Catholics speak for themselves.
 
Vatican II, Lumen gentium ## 61-62.


... in suffering with Him as He died on the cross, she cooperated in the work of the Savior, in an altogether singular way, by obedience, faith, hope, and burning love, to restore supernatural life to souls. As a result she is our Mother in the order of grace. This motherhood of Mary in the economy of grace lasts without interruption, from the consent which she gave in faith at the annunciation, and which she unhesitatingly bore with under the cross, even to the perpetual consummation of all the elect. For after being assumed into heaven, she has not put aside this saving function, but by her manifold intercession, she continues to win the gifts of eternal salvation for us. By her motherly love, she takes care of the brothers of her Son who are still in pilgrimage and in dangers and difficulties, until they be led through to the happy fatherland. For this reason, the Blessed Virgin is invoked in the Church under the titles of Advocate, Auxiliatrix, Adiutrix, and Mediatrix. This however it to be so understood that it takes nothing away, or adds nothing to the dignity and efficacy of Christ the one Mediator. For no creature can ever be put on the same level with the Incarnate Word and Redeemer....
 
Cure of Ars said:
Vatican II, Lumen gentium ## 61-62.


... in suffering with Him as He died on the cross, she cooperated in the work of the Savior, in an altogether singular way, by obedience, faith, hope, and burning love, to restore supernatural life to souls. As a result she is our Mother in the order of grace. This motherhood of Mary in the economy of grace lasts without interruption, from the consent which she gave in faith at the annunciation, and which she unhesitatingly bore with under the cross, even to the perpetual consummation of all the elect. For after being assumed into heaven, she has not put aside this saving function, but by her manifold intercession, she continues to win the gifts of eternal salvation for us. By her motherly love, she takes care of the brothers of her Son who are still in pilgrimage and in dangers and difficulties, until they be led through to the happy fatherland. For this reason, the Blessed Virgin is invoked in the Church under the titles of Advocate, Auxiliatrix, Adiutrix, and Mediatrix. This however it to be so understood that it takes nothing away, or adds nothing to the dignity and efficacy of Christ the one Mediator. For no creature can ever be put on the same level with the Incarnate Word and Redeemer....

But... of course this is the typical "double speak" of the harlot...

First the Satanic lie.

"she has not put aside this saving function, but by her manifold intercession, she continues to win the gifts of eternal salvation for us. By her motherly love, she takes care of the brothers of her Son who are still in pilgrimage and in dangers and difficulties, until they be led through to the happy fatherland"

Lie from hell!

Mary plays no part in our salvation. She does not give us "gifts of eternal salvtion".

This evil goddess is a liar and her followers are deceived.

Christ has "obatained salvation" for us. We don't need the Catholic devil goddess to get to heaven.

Hebrews 9:12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

The Catholic Mary is not a "way to the way". Jesus is the way and we need only Him.

Hebrews 9:14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

Where is the false goddess of Rome in these scriptures?

She is not mentioned because she does not have the office the liars from hell claim she does!

Hebrews 9:24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:

Again no mention of their false goddess.

The Holy Spirit brings us the gifts obtained by Christ.

Ephesians 4:8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.

Hebrews 2:4 God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will?

The Catholic church is a lying church!

"We don't place Mary above Jesus"

maryhelpchr.jpg


Yeah, right!
 
vierge_de_douleurs.jpg



At the Cross her station keeping,
Stood the mournful Mother weeping,
Close to Jesus to the last.
 
Christians Look to Mary

http://www.ewtn.com/library/papaldoc/jp2bvm56.htm

Pope John Paul II

"Mary’s queenship is not only founded on her divine motherhood but also on her co-operation with her Son in the work of Redemption."

"Mary is Queen not only because she is Mother of God, but also because, associated as the new Eve with the new Adam, she co-operated in the work of the redemption of the human race", the Holy Father said at the General Audience of Wednesday, 23 July, as he reflected on Mary's universal queenship. Here is a translation of his catechesis, which was the 56th in the series on the Blessed Mother and was given in Italian."

More lies from the harlot...

The bible does not mention Mary as "Queen" a "New Eve" or "the way to the way".

These things are promoted to deceive the mindless followers who carry out the traditions of the apostates and idolaters before them...

Jeremiah 7:18 The children gather wood, and the fathers kindle the fire, and the women knead their dough, to make cakes to the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto other gods, that they may provoke me to anger.

The worship of devils is not new...
 
The only way I know to counter ugliness is with beauty and the only way to counter hate is with love. Here is a poem by Edgar Allan Poe that I like:

At morn - at noon - at twilight dim -
Maria! thou hast heard my hymn!
In joy and woe - in good and ill -
Mother of God, be with me still!
When the hours flew brightly by,
And not a cloud obscured the sky,
My soul, lest it should truant be,
Thy grace did guide to thine and thee;
Now, when storms of Fate o'ercast
Darkly my Present and my Past,
Let my Future radiant shine
With sweet hopes of thee and thine!
 
"Catholics Look to Mary" words from their own website...

http://www.ewtn.com/library/papaldoc/jp2bvm56.htm

Christians "look to Jesus".

Hebrews 12:2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

No Catholic goddess in these scriptures.

True Christians quote scripture not morbid drug users... :roll:
 
10apocal.jpg



A great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars; and she was with child; and she cried out, being in labor and in pain to give birth. Then another sign appeared in heaven: and behold, a great red dragon having seven heads and ten horns, and on his heads were seven diadems. And his tail swept away a third of the stars of heaven and threw them to the earth. And the dragon stood before the woman who was about to give birth, so that when she gave birth he might devour her child. And she gave birth to a son, a male child, who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron; and her child was caught up to God and to His throne. Then the woman fled into the wilderness where she had a place prepared by God, so that there she would be nourished for one thousand two hundred and sixty days.
John 12:1-6

Then the dragon became angry with the woman and went off to wage war against the rest of her offspring, those who keep God's commandments and bear witness to Jesus. John 12:17

That's me. :D
 
Catholics should keep this commandment...

history-marian-devotion-b.jpg


Leviticus 26:1 Ye shall make you no idols nor graven image, neither rear you up a standing image, neither shall ye set up any image of stone in your land, to bow down unto it: for I am the LORD your God.

Those who serve the Queen of Heaven serve Satan...

1 Corinthians 10:20 But I say, that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice, they sacrifice to devils, and not to God: and I would not that ye should have fellowship with devils.
 
pentcost.jpg


Pentecost, codice di Rabbula, 6th century


All these devoted themselves with one accord to prayer, together with some women, and Mary the mother of Jesus, and his brothers. (Acts 1:14)


We see Mary prayerfully imploring the gift of the Spirit, who had already overshadowed her in the Annunciation." (LG 59)
 
Cure of Ars said:
vierge_de_douleurs.jpg



At the Cross her station keeping,
Stood the mournful Mother weeping,
Close to Jesus to the last.
That is a beautiful icon, and a poem which demonstrates the historical, biblical facts- and yet it was followed by another 'hate Rome' screed.

This confirms my suspicion that facts are of no concern in the matter of Mary, only the denigration of her and of those who hold her in high regard.

One cannot hold conversations with picketers- they are not there to have dialogue.
 
Mary Worship?

A Study of Catholic Practice and Doctrine

Mary Ann Collins
(A Former Catholic Nun)

June 2001



"If you want to see what a person's real priorities are, then watch what they do when their life, or the life of a loved one, is in danger.

When Pope John Paul II was shot, while the ambulance was rushing him to the hospital, the Pope was not praying to God or calling on the name of Jesus. He kept saying, over and over: "Mary, my mother!" Polish pilgrims placed a picture of Our Lady of Czestochowa on the throne where the Pope normally sat. People gathered around the picture. Vatican loudspeakers broadcasted the prayers of the rosary. When the Pope recovered, he gave Mary all the glory for saving his life, and he made a pilgrimage to Fatima to publicly thank her. (Note 4)

Jesus said, "[W]here your treasure is there will your heart be also." (Luke 12:34) Some statues of Mary have real crowns made of gold. The web sites listed in the Notes show pictures of statues of Our Lady of Fatima and Our Lady of Lourdes wearing crowns. (Note 5) The statues in the pictures are replicas, and their crowns are ceramic and painted gold. But the crowns on the original statues at Fatima and Lourdes are real crowns made of real gold.

Vast sums of money are spent on some special statues of Mary. For example, the statue of Our Lady of the Pillar in Saragossa, Spain has a crown made of 25 pounds of gold and diamonds, with so many diamonds that you can hardly see the gold. In addition, it has six other crowns of gold, diamonds and emeralds. It has 365 mantles which are embroidered with gold and covered with roses of diamonds and other precious stones. It has 365 necklaces made of pearls and diamonds, and six chains of gold set with diamonds. (Note 6)

In Sabana Grande, Puerto Rico, preparations are underway to construct a huge statue of Our Lady of the Rosary. Inside the base of the statue there will be chapels, conference rooms, apartments, a food court, and radio and TV stations. There will also be observation decks.

This statue will be part of a 500-acre "Mystical City" complex. According to an article in "Caribbean Business," this statue "will top at 1,500 feet". According to an article by the Associated Press, the statue will be 305 feet high. (Note 7)

The discrepancy in numbers can be explained by looking at the Statue of Liberty, which is a 151 foot statue on top of a 154 foot base. Some sources say that the Statue of Liberty is 305 feet high (which includes the height of the base) and some say that it is 151 feet high (which is the height of the actual statue). What we probably have in Sabana Grande is a 305 foot statue with a 1,200 foot base."

BB ADDS

Millions of Catholics get on their knees before statues of their goddess and ask her for protection and guidance on a daily basis.

Many Catholics claim that Mary has spoken to them personally and gave them predictions about future events.

They are deceived! This practice is no different than what fortune tellers do with their crystal balls and other occult objects. The Catholic church is a promoter of witchcraft and Necromancy.

They speak to "saints" (dead frauds) that they claim hear and answer their prayers.

Isaiah 48:5 I have even from the beginning declared it to thee; before it came to pass I shewed it thee: lest thou shouldest say, Mine idol hath done them, and my graven image, and my molten image, hath commanded them.
 
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