The Virgin of the Lilies

[Lyric's Dad]

[quote="Lyrics Dad":be764]More diversion. Marian worship is a reality

As I said, I don't worship Mary. You are not only showing poor form as a debater here- you are skirting the ToS with your vapid argumentation.
OC: "No, I don't"
LD: "Yes, you do."

Gimme a break

and I have yet to be in a service in my Church where someone makes a decision for Christ that they are not set up with people to disciple them.

Good. Now try to tell me that this is the norm in Evangelical Christianity.

Tell me, how does the infant make their decision for Christ?

You make it sound like a one-time deal: but as we know, that's what you anabaptists seem to believe. As if your understanding mediates the grace of God- what utter Pelagianism.

My infants are making their decisions toward Christ every day, as I noted-or did that not get through your thick wall of denial?[/quote:be764]Actually, I have yet to say that you as a person worship mary. What I do know is that the apostate catholic church has a great history of it and that tends to trickle down through the ranks.

Anabaptist huh? LOL!

As far as my wall of denial, that too is laughable. I follow the truths that my Lord leads me into, not what the pope says.

 

[Orthodox Christian]

^This is the Protestant version of 'ugly American.'

Jim, do you really mean ugly American, or is this code for handsome Canadian?

"Ugly American" is an expression that describes those too myopic and sheltered to realize that they and their little corner of the world are not the center of the world. Because of their exaggerated sense of self-importance, they tend to be abrasive, abusive, and a nuisance.

Does that help?

Q/"Why don't they do things and say things in a way I understand?"
A/ "Cuz the world does not revolve around you and your understanding."

But my world does revolve around God's word. I trust His word to expose every false teaching.

Your world is not the world. Even if it were, your world would revolve around your understanding of God's word. It does not even occur to you that your understanding of the holy scriptures is colored by your experience, your culture, your parnets, your pastor, your prejudices, your presumptions, and so forth. So are mine. That is the nature of being human. We hold onto what we believe to be true about Him who is Truth.

I do not worship Mary, just like you claim not to. But I also don't hang pictures of Mary in my house with nail holes through her palms. I don't have statues of images, I don't pray to them, bow down to them, light candles around them and give every appearance that I am worshipping them, when I claim not to be.

So what? I don't go around proclaiming my interpretation of scripture as if I am speaking Ex Cathedra, either.

This is simple. Did you know that it is a sin even to give the appearance of sinning? Tell me why people flock to those images of Mary? Certainly the Catholic church would set them straight on these things? Grilled cheese anyone?

It is amazing how you believe your view of how reverence and worship should be conducted as the set point by which we should all measure ourselves.

Do you kiss your wife/kids?

Not married. Why do you compair statues to people? Would the destruction of a statue be murder?

[quote:fc9c3]Do you ever attend parades?

No, I hate parades.

Do you have an image of Jesus or the cross anywhere in your house or church?

No, no cross, nothing. [/quote:fc9c3]

Lovely, a true iconoclast. But you have already said that you worship God through His 'words'- ie, the bible. Take a look at your bible. Are there letters in there? Yes, of course. Those leters are symbols- icons, if you will, that when read and meditated upon, actually bring forth the True Word in your spirit. It is not God's words in ink, it is God's words in your spirit.

Therefore, you look unto images as well. I happen to enjoy meditating upon an icon I have of the Resurrection, where Christ is trampling down death and lifting Adam and Eve out of the Tombs. It calls to mind, for me, a ton of scripture, ranging from Genesis to Hebrews to Revelation.

Likewise, the cross. When I look upon the symbol of death that brought life, and I know that the scripture says that I am to "take it up daily," I know that I do well to mdeitate upon it. Paul preached it, Peter died on it, John and Mary, the Mother of Christ stood nearby it.

Are you, in fact, sir, an idolater?

Jumping the gun, here Jim?

Exodus 20:3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.

20:4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image,

or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above,

or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.

20:5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them,

nor serve them:

for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;

Dave

[/quote]
I'm not sure why you bring a gun to a bible discussion, Dave.
Selah

St. John of Damascus writes: "I represent God, the Invisible One, not as invisible, but insofar as he has become visible for us by participation in flesh and blood. If we made an image of the invisible God, we would certainly be in error, but we do nothing of the sort; for we are not in error if we make the image of the incarnate God, who appeared on earth in the flesh, and who, in His ineffable goodness, lived with human beings and assumed the nature, the thickness, the shape and the color of the flesh."

From the Seventh Ecumenical Council, regarding icons

...One of these is the production of representational art; this is quite in harmony with the history of the spread of the gospel, as it provides confirmation that the becoming man of the Word of God was real and not just imaginary, and as it brings us a similar benefit. For, things that mutually illustrate one another undoubtedly possess one another's message.

As do Jesus movies, Passion plays, and the like. The difference here is that the representations are sanctioned by the Church as representing solid theology. Example:

This is not Mel Gibson-interpreted passages on the big screen. This is a picture which shows jesus trampling upon death, who is bound. In larger reliefs one can see keys also under Jesus' feet- keys to the pit and hell. One can also see Adam and Eve being lifted from their crypts, for the curse is broken. The tomb is not a closed edifice in this icon, but is a doorway bathed in Shekinah glory. The figues gathered around the sides are the prophets and Kings who prophesied His coming and His glory. Though the gospel does not name the saints who were resurrected at Jesus' crucifixion, it is not unreasonable to think that prophets or kings might have been among them. Certainly, regardless, they were 'witness' to His victory, long before it occured on earth.

There is much, much more to this icon, but we shall stop there.

 

[Orthodox Christian]

[quote="Orthodox Christian":c3a33][quote="Lyrics Dad":c3a33]More diversion. Marian worship is a reality

As I said, I don't worship Mary. You are not only showing poor form as a debater here- you are skirting the ToS with your vapid argumentation.
OC: "No, I don't"
LD: "Yes, you do."

Gimme a break

and I have yet to be in a service in my Church where someone makes a decision for Christ that they are not set up with people to disciple them.

Good. Now try to tell me that this is the norm in Evangelical Christianity.

Tell me, how does the infant make their decision for Christ?

You make it sound like a one-time deal: but as we know, that's what you anabaptists seem to believe. As if your understanding mediates the grace of God- what utter Pelagianism.

My infants are making their decisions toward Christ every day, as I noted-or did that not get through your thick wall of denial?[/quote:c3a33]Actually, I have yet to say that you as a person worship mary. [/quote:c3a33]
Semantics. Don't back-pedal now, LD- it is you who has (mis)defined worship and excluded all of us icon-kissers by your narrow definition of what worship is and is not.

What I do know is that the apostate catholic church has a great history of it and that tends to trickle down through the ranks.

So sez you- and predicated is your statement on your definition of what worship is. This is circular reasoning on your part.

Anabaptist huh? LOL!

If the shoe fits, wear it.

As far as my wall of denial, that too is laughable. I follow the truths that my Lord leads me into, not what the pope says.

Yada, yada. I was speaking of the fact that you wanted to go after the issue with children again after it was explained to you in detail how we disciple our young charges.

Glad I can make you laugh- though I happen to think a little sobriety and temperance is in order at this time.

 

[bibleberean]

Reality check...

Mary is not God nor does she help to save us. She is not part of the "trinity" nor is she everywhere all at once.

True biblical Christians (not deceived Cathechism believers) understand that we have direct access to the father through Christ.

He is our advocate and we do not have go to the "Queen of Heaven" to gain salvation from Jesus.

He is already for us

Romans 8:31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?

Papal Consecration of Pius the XII in 1954

Excerpt

HOPE FOR HEARTS THAT LOVE MARY

"Now We are well aware that the hope of salvation can never be absent wherever hearts are turned with sincere and ardent piety to the most holy Mother of God. Though attempts be made by men, no matter how powerful or impious, to extirpate the Christian religion and Christian virtue from the minds of the citizens, and though Satan himself may strive with every means to foster this sacrilegious struggleâ€â€as is described in the words of the Apostle of the Gentiles: "For our wrestling is not against flesh and blood, but against the principalities and the powers, against the rulers of the world of this darkness, against the spirits of wickedness in the high places"â€â€yet notwithstanding, when Mary interposes her powerful protection, the gates of hell cannot prevail.

She, in fact, is the most loving and most powerful Mother of God and of us all, and never was it heard that anyone has had suppliant recourse to her and has not experienced her most efficacious protection. Continue, therefore, as you have been doing, to venerate her with fervent piety, and to love her ardently and to invoke her with these words which you have been accustomed to address to her: "To you alone has it been given, O most holy and most pure Mother of God, unfailingly to have your petitions ever answered."[/b]

Acathistus Festi Patrocinii SS. Dei Genetricis; Kondak 3

BB continues:

Christ nor the bible which is His written word even hints that Mary is to be run to in time of trouble or that we need seek her protection or go through her to get to Him.

This is a lie. It is a huge lie. It is a most enormous lie. It is blasphemy of the rankest sort. It should be despised because it is an insult to Christ...

It denigrates His sacrifice!

Jesus alone purged our sins.

Hebrews 1:3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

Jesus is for us and died alone for our sins.

The consecrations and prayers to Mary for her protection and guidance is a clear departure from scripture.

God is our refuge and our strength. God is a strong tower to those who cry to Him.

If a Christian is not outraged by these vile prayers then I wonder exactly what sort of Christian he or she can be.

 

[thessalonian]

Reality check...

Mary is not God nor does she help to save us. She is not part of the "trinity" nor is she everywhere all at once.

Where does anyone in the Catholic Church say she is part of the trinity or everywhere at once? Quotes please. As for helping to save, do you suppose that preachers help save people? Yet, without Christ noone can be saved. Agreed?

[QUOT]True biblical Christians (not deceived Cathechism believers) understand that we have direct access to the father through Christ.[/QUOTE]

Hey, then I'm a true Christian because I believe that too. I also believe that I can ask others to pray for me. Isn't it grand! :-D

He is our advocate and we do not have go to the "Queen of Heaven" to gain salvation from Jesus.

More rhetoric of which it is clear you do not understand Catholic teachings.
You condemn what you don't understand. But first of course you distort it beyond recognition so that it is not what the Catholic Church teaches. I'll pray a rosary for you my friend.

 

[bibleberean]

Mary would have to be God for her to hear all the prayers of her deluded faithful. She is not God and she has no ability to meet souls wearing the brown scapular and escort them into heaven on the first Saturday after their death.

Sabbatine Privilege

"The name Sabbatine Privilege is derived from the apocryphal Bull "Sacratissimo uti culmine" of John XXII, 3 March, 1322. In this Bull the pope is made to declare that the Mother of God appeared to him, and most urgently recommended to him the Carmelite Order and its confratres and consorores.

The Blessed Virgin asked that John, as Christ's representative on earth, should ratify the indulgences which He had already granted in heaven (a plenary indulgence for the members of the Carmelite Order and a partial indulgence, remitting the third part of the temporal punishment due to their sins, for the members of the confraternity); she herself would graciously descend on the Saturday (Sabbath after their death and liberate and conduct to heaven all who were in purgatory. Then follow the conditions which the confratres and consorores must fulfill. At the end of the Bull the pope declares:


Istam ergo sanctam Indulgentiam accepto, roboro et in terris confirmo, sicut, propter merita Virginis Matris, gratiose Jesus Christus concessit in coelis

(This holy indulgence I therefore accept; I confirm and ratify it on earth, just as Jesus Christ has graciously granted it in heaven on account of the merits of the Virgin Mother)."

Quote from
From the Catholic Encyclopedia Sabbatine Privilege.

Mary can do all that while at the same time hearing and answering the millions and millions of prayers being offered to her by her faithful worshippers her on earth?

Not a chance!

The asinine excuse of saying that praying to Mary for protection is no different then a friend praying for the needs of someone else is ludicrous!

I don't ask my friends to obtain salvation from Jesus for me. I don't implore my friends to save me from hell.

Someone is full of double talk and hot air!

Further more there is not a single scripture to support these blasphemous practices.

I don't save anyone if I preach the gospel and they respond.

Peter preached but it was the Lord who added to the church.

I cannot be saved by asking Mary for gifts of grace merited by the death of her son!

That is a stench ridden lie from the pit of hell!

I spit on such a vile notion!

I have already shown that we have direct access to God through Christ.

No where does it say I need to go through His mommy to get to Him!

This is rank blasphemy! Rhetoric from hell!

I was born and baptized as an infant into the Catholic Church. I spent 8 years in Catholic school. I had Cathechism during the school year and went to Confraternity of Christian Doctrine Classes in the Summer after eighth grade. I was an altar boy and went to mass a minimum of twice a week. I went to confession every Friday and I spent close to a year in a Salesian Seminary to become a priest.

I was baptized, received the sacrament of penance, Holy Communion, Confirmation, and was married in a Catholic church.

Don't tell me I misrepresent the church!

Double talk and sorry excuses for unbiblical practices will not cut it when standing before and all Holy God!

 

[thessalonian]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Mary would have to be God for her to hear all the prayers of her deluded faithful.

No she wouldn't. Do you bow down before computers. Well I happen to have some background in the capabilities of computers. There are computes that could easily recieve all the prayers from all the Catholics in the world that are on the internet. Does this make them God as your logic would have us believe? No, it is a finite problem that does not require God. As for everyone appearing simultaneiously, well that's not so amazing. Every watch World News Tonight. Guess what, their watching it in california and florida and they can even pick it up on satalite accross the ocean. We do not know what those in heaven are capable of. We do know they have full access to God. Further I find it hard to believe that men in heaven have less capability than men on earth, especially since they have full access to God. Your just being anti-catholic here and not allowing your mind to think of what the scriptures mean when they say "eye has not seen nor ear heard what God has ready for those who love him". Remember the story of the talents. Where the one with five who made five was told he was going to be put in charge of "much greater things". Likewise with the one who was given two.


Blessings

 

[thessalonian]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Mary would have to be God for her to hear all the prayers of her deluded faithful.

No she wouldn't. Do you bow down before computers. Well I happen to have some background in the capabilities of computers. There are computes that could easily recieve all the prayers from all the Catholics in the world that are on the internet. Does this make them God as your logic would have us believe? No, it is a finite problem that does not require God. As for everyone appearing simultaneiously, well that's not so amazing. Every watch World News Tonight. Guess what, their watching it in california and florida and they can even pick it up on satalite accross the ocean. We do not know what those in heaven are capable of. We do know they have full access to God. Further I find it hard to believe that men in heaven have less capability than men on earth, especially since they have full access to God. Your just being anti-catholic here and not allowing your mind to think of what the scriptures mean when they say "eye has not seen nor ear heard what God has ready for those who love him". Remember the story of the talents. Where the one with five who made five was told he was going to be put in charge of "much greater things". Likewise with the one who was given two.


Blessings

 

[fiat]

The reason I am asking you to read the Catechism, again is NOT so you will convert, but so you will stop spreading lies. You say you know enough about Catholicism, yet you accuse us of embracing what is defined by the Church as grave sin.

Exodus 20:3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.

20:4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image,

or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above,

or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.

20:5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them,

nor serve them:

for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;

Keep on reading to the part where God commands that two cherubim of hammered gold be placed on top of the Ark (Exodus 25:18-20) as well as the Mercy seat. The part about the Bread of Presence is really cool too, but that's another story. :wink: *ahem* anyway... Cherumbim are of heaven, yes? And making them of hammered gold would certainly be classified as a graven image, yes? Is God contradicting Himself? No. In the passage you sited He was repremanding His people for the WORSHIP of graven images.

 

[bibleberean]

Leviticus 26:1 Ye shall make you no idols nor graven image, neither rear you up a standing image, neither shall ye set up any image of stone in your land, to bow down unto it: for I am the LORD your God.

No one was to pray to images.

Catholics talk about the images in the temple as though Christians are hearing about them for the first time.

Bow down, worship, pray to...etc...

"I am the Lord your God"

Get a clue...

Give it up...

 

[bibleberean]

Mary nor the angels are "all knowing" and "every where at once" neither are computers.

God is all those things but He alone is God.

Any teaching contrary to that is heresey...

Psalms 139:7 Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence?

Psalms 139:8 If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.

Psalms 139:9 If I take the wings of the morning, and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea;

Psalms 139:10 Even there shall thy hand lead me, and thy right hand shall hold me.

This is an attribute of God not of man.

 

[Orthodox Christian]

Leviticus 26:1 Ye shall make you no idols nor graven image, neither rear you up a standing image, neither shall ye set up any image of stone in your land, to bow down unto it: for I am the LORD your God.

No one was to pray to images.

Catholics talk about the images in the temple as though Christians are hearing about them for the first time.

Bow down, worship, pray to...etc...

"I am the Lord your God"

Get a clue...

You guys slay me: If anyone quotes Sabbath law at you, you rebuke them. You only invoke this commandment so as to slander Christian brothers- may God forgive you your stiff-necked ignorance.

My suggestion to you is to learn before you deign to teach.
Now pay attention carefully:

The Hebrew word which is translated "bow down to" is shachah. This word can mean anything from pay obeisance to- as Moses did his father-in-law
(Exodus 18:7) and Ruth did to Boaz (Ruth 2:10), to actual worship of God (1 Samuel 1:19). The meaning of the word is understood in context.

Not so with the Greek- we have two very clear terms to distinguish the intent of the person paying honor:
Proskeneo- which means honor, as Moses did before Jethro
Latreia- which means worship, as that which to God only

We've been over this before, and you ignore it in your crazed anti-Rome fervor.

Now the Jews did not pray to the Temple, nor any of its furnishings- though the priests did cense and sanctify the furnishings. No, the Jews prayed in and through the Temple, just as Protestant Christians visualize a Jesus face and pray to God, or just as I read words on the page of my bible and pray to God. I do not pray to my bible, nor people to their mind-image of God. In truth, our hearts reach out to He whom is beyond circumscribing or seeing or beholding

Ahhh-that is, until His Incarnation, when He became a man with a face, and two arms and legs, and hair, and intestines.

In so doing, He elevated human being FOREVER- and He remains in human form, glorifying it.

In sum:
I gaze upon an icon, and through it, and past it. I worship God when I behold the stars- as did David. I bow down before my children, my wife, before icons, and before the gospel book itself, for I am unashamed to humble myself before God's own image and God' own words.

Yet you would be more iconoclastic than David, less inclined to pay honor than Moses or Ruth. This is pride.

 

[thessalonian]

Mary nor the angels are "all knowing" and "every where at once" neither are computers.

God is all those things but He alone is God.

Any teaching contrary to that is heresey...

Psalms 139:7 Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence?

Psalms 139:8 If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.

Psalms 139:9 If I take the wings of the morning, and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea;

Psalms 139:10 Even there shall thy hand lead me, and thy right hand shall hold me.

This is an attribute of God not of man.

Show me one place where I have said that any man was God? Do you claim that those in heaven are more limited than we are on earth? That in the prescence of God they can do less than we can with our technology? Your simply doing yourself no good with such lack of rational thought. I will pray in saddness for you that God will open your heart and mind which are like the doors of the upper room after the crusifixion.

 

[Lyric's Dad]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Mary would have to be God for her to hear all the prayers of her deluded faithful.

No she wouldn't. Do you bow down before computers. Well I happen to have some background in the capabilities of computers. There are computes that could easily recieve all the prayers from all the Catholics in the world that are on the internet. Does this make them God as your logic would have us believe? No, it is a finite problem that does not require God. As for everyone appearing simultaneiously, well that's not so amazing. Every watch World News Tonight. Guess what, their watching it in california and florida and they can even pick it up on satalite accross the ocean. We do not know what those in heaven are capable of. We do know they have full access to God. Further I find it hard to believe that men in heaven have less capability than men on earth, especially since they have full access to God. Your just being anti-catholic here and not allowing your mind to think of what the scriptures mean when they say "eye has not seen nor ear heard what God has ready for those who love him". Remember the story of the talents. Where the one with five who made five was told he was going to be put in charge of "much greater things". Likewise with the one who was given two.


Blessings

Please, introduce us to a computer that can hear the uttered prayers of all the catholics in the world. That is just ludicrous.

The point still remains. Mary is not omniscient nor omnipresent and cannot hear the prayers uttered to her, and I doubt God is relaying them as it would just upset her to know how many deluded are worshiping her when Jesus is the one she wants us to know.

 

[Orthodox Christian]

Please, introduce us to a computer that can hear the uttered prayers of all the catholics in the world. That is just ludicrous.

The point still remains. Mary is not omniscient nor omnipresent and cannot hear the prayers uttered to her, and I doubt God is relaying them as it would just upset her to know how many deluded are worshiping her when Jesus is the one she wants us to know.

You are, obviously, under the impression that spirits take up a specific physical location and continue to exist in the passage of time, in the manner we do as human beings.

One wonders how 2000 demons fit inside a single person, as in the Gospel.

Or, for that matter, how the devil harasses billions of Christians and tempts billions of others.

Do you attribute omnipresence to Satan? Or do you suppose that he/it has a very large computer database to keep track of all of the weaknesses of humans?

The obvious answer is that the spiritual world is not bound with the limitations imposed on us by our location in time and space.

As for Mary being upset by people worshipping her: of course she would be. But this is irrelevant, because as we've stated again and again, we do not worship her. Though it seems that you are either incapable of or unwilling to wrap your mind around the distinction between honor and worship, please do not impose upon us the imaginations of your so-called 'non-tradition' tradition.

And please do not allow the Evil One an opportunity to be manifest in these conversations. We all need to approach each other in and with humility.

James

 

[Lyric's Dad]

As for Mary being upset by people worshipping her: of course she would be. But this is irrelevant, because as we've stated again and again, we do not worship her. Though it seems that you are either incapable of or unwilling to wrap your mind around the distinction between honor and worship, please do not impose upon us the imaginations of your so-called 'non-tradition' tradition.

And please do not allow the Evil One an opportunity to be manifest in these conversations. We all need to approach each other in and with humility.

James

I hear you say this but like you said in a former post, "if the shoe fits, wear it."

Again, YOU may not worship Mary but I think just the photos and prayers that have been posted by BB show enough evidence to prove that this is not the case for the church as a whole and definately not for your popes and other leaders.

 

[fiat]

Being in Heaven is not (thank God!) like being in the next room, or next door, or three streets down thatta way. :wink: The saints in Heaven are not subject to the time/space limitations of this life. That is not to say they are omniscient, only God is.
An example lack of time/space "barriers" would be the story of the Transfiguration in Matthew 17. What are Elijah and Moses doing back on earth?
But can they hear us? Rev. 5:8 indicates that the saints in heaven offer the "incense" of the prayers of the saints on earth to God. They must be at least aware of our prayers to present them to God. Prayers are not physical and cannot be offered to God as such, so the saints in heaven must be offering the prayers mentally, or interceding.

 

[Orthodox Christian]

[quote="Orthodox Christian":52778]



As for Mary being upset by people worshipping her: of course she would be. But this is irrelevant, because as we've stated again and again, we do not worship her. Though it seems that you are either incapable of or unwilling to wrap your mind around the distinction between honor and worship, please do not impose upon us the imaginations of your so-called 'non-tradition' tradition.

And please do not allow the Evil One an opportunity to be manifest in these conversations. We all need to approach each other in and with humility.

James

I hear you say this but like you said in a former post, "if the shoe fits, wear it."

Again, YOU may not worship Mary but I think just the photos and prayers that have been posted by BB show enough evidence to prove that this is not the case for the church as a whole and definately not for your popes and other leaders.[/quote:52778]

We've been over this ad nauseum:
You look at a picture of some people doing obeisance before an image, and call it worship. I stated and provided specific scriptures pointing to Moses doing this very thing before his Father-In-Law.

You are captivated by your American sense of how honor should be expressed. To the American mind, honor is expressed with the nod of a head or applause. To the Semitic person, as well as the Asians, honor is exhibited through bowing, touching the ground (proskeneo), and so forth. We continue in the traditions of our Semitic forefathers. We still kiss each other on the cheek in Christian greeting, and we still observe the beginning of the day at sundown.

You need to become familiarized with your cultural mores and prejudices. You are speaking through them to matters of the Kingdom, and adding God's stamp of approval to your Stoic European sensibility.

I do not know why it is so difficult for you and yours to understand that worship exists in the heart. Should I prostrate myself before God in my body, should I surrender my very body to be burned, yet have not love, and have not His honor and worship in my heart, I have done and am nothing.

Conversely, if people worship in manner that you find unacceptable, take the time to ascertain what is in their hearts when they worship.

You will no doubt perceive this reply as excuse-making. In point of fact, it is generosity on my part, hoping that you will be delivered from your cultural captivity and ethnocentricity. That is to say, I hope that you are freed from your need to judge everything against your tradition and your reading of scripture. This is why I take the time to explain what we do- it is not as if we acknowledge your presumed position as judge of orthodoxy.

I find your Stoic, austere approach to spirituality to be, to quote the movie "dry white toast." Your reading of the text contains none of the Near Eastern sensibility to which the Apostles brought in their writing of and living of the Gospel. Worship in the Hebrew mind involves action, involves the whole person, involves position of body. Sentiments in the scriptures are expressed with great vigor, from David shucking his duds and dancing to Jacob bowing before Esau.

So it is to be expected that Christians parade, for example, the epitaphios (tomb) of Christ in procession through the streets on Good Friday.

. Or how the Catholics parade with a statue of Mary on the day set aside to remember the Annunciation of Gabriel to mary of the Incarnation of Our Blessed Lord.

Did not David set a huge and elaborate procession for the Ark, which he himself went before?

Please connect the dots, or at least refrain from slanderous and foolish charges. Be slow to speak and quick to listen.

Thank you
James

 

[thessalonian]

]Please, introduce us to a computer that can hear the uttered prayers of all the catholics in the world. That is just ludicrous.

It's an analogy for the purpose of making the point that to recieve all the prayers in the world almost simultaneously is not impossible for things which are not God. Apparently you know little about computer technology. Do you know what a gigabit is. Well it's a billion bits. And there are computers that can recieve up to 10 gigabits per second of data at a time. The transfer medium is called fire wire. Now it takes about 15 seconds to say one hail mary and by my calculations it would take about 250 words X 8 bits to say one. That means that a single board computer could recieve 75 Million individual letters per second by my calculations. Of course there are multi-processor boards with multiple ports that could make this well over 1 billion and I highly doudt the whole Catholic world is praying at once. All analogies are imperfect of course. But do you want to go the route that there is less capability in heaven then men on earth have? I would sure hope not. Eye has not seen nor ear heard what God has ready for those who love him.

The point still remains. Mary is not omniscient nor omnipresent and cannot hear the prayers uttered to her, and I doubt God is relaying them as it would just upset her to know how many deluded are worshiping her when Jesus is the one she wants us to know.

I agree that mary is not omniscient, omnipresent or even omnipotent. Which brings up an interesting question. Do you believe that faith can move a mountain : Does that mean that you are omnipotent or that you, if you had faith the size of a mustard seed would have access to God's omnipotence? Don't think to long on this. Do you suppose that those in heaven have perfected faith? I do. Do you suppose they have access to his omniscience and omniprescence? Why do you say they do not? Are we not told there is great rejoicing in heaven over one repentence sinner? How can they possibly know that a sinner has repented if they do not know what is going on or hear anything? Do you suppose when the cheers go up among the angels who are said to express this great joy, that the ones around them stand around with a confused stare on their faces. The 12 Apostles are told they are going to sit on thrones and judge the twelve tribes (Matt 10). Can you tell me how they could judge rightly if they did not know what was going on and hear what was going on? So far it seems your just answering without considering what the Bible really has to say in these matters.

 

[thessalonian]

James,

I wonder if they realize that the Jews bowed down before the Ark in Joshua 7 and were granted victory the very next day.