The Virgin of the Lilies

[Orthodox Christian]

James,

I wonder if they realize that the Jews bowed down before the Ark in Joshua 7 and were granted victory the very next day.

Heavens no! Tear it out of the book!!
At least, that was Luther's approach
:

 

[Lyric's Dad]

James,

I wonder if they realize that the Jews bowed down before the Ark in Joshua 7 and were granted victory the very next day.

Heavens no! Tear it out of the book!!
At least, that was Luther's approach
:

Oh yes, let's compare apples and oranges. Anything to justify worshiping idols made from the hand of man.....


Luther was one of the best things that happened to the Church.

 

[Orthodox Christian]

[quote="Orthodox Christian":0d064]

James,

I wonder if they realize that the Jews bowed down before the Ark in Joshua 7 and were granted victory the very next day.

Heavens no! Tear it out of the book!!
At least, that was Luther's approach
:

Oh yes, let's compare apples and oranges. Anything to justify worshiping idols made from the hand of man.....


Luther was one of the best things that happened to the Church.[/quote:0d064]
C'mon now, we was just make small talk waiting for the next salvo of iconoclasm.

Get a sense of humor- we all know Luther was an virulent anti-Semite, a beast, a vulgar Cretin, a sell-out to German nobility....but he was the life of the party when flatulent. A real earthy kind of guy, fun to drink beer with.

Don't tell me, LD, that you're just going to wave pom-poms for Luther, and not deal with the substantive explanations and issues addressed in the last few posts?

How 'bout it?

 

[thessalonian]

I've been out of the server loop for a while. I see now that there is 100 Gigabit communications and servers that can handle it. That should accomodate all the Catholics who want to send it prayers. We better start worshipping them or they will revolt.

 

[Lyric's Dad]

[quote="Lyric's Dad":ed260][quote="Orthodox Christian":ed260]

James,

I wonder if they realize that the Jews bowed down before the Ark in Joshua 7 and were granted victory the very next day.

Heavens no! Tear it out of the book!!
At least, that was Luther's approach
:

Oh yes, let's compare apples and oranges. Anything to justify worshiping idols made from the hand of man.....


Luther was one of the best things that happened to the Church.[/quote:ed260]
C'mon now, we was just make small talk waiting for the next salvo of iconoclasm.

Get a sense of humor- we all know Luther was an virulent anti-Semite, a beast, a vulgar Cretin, a sell-out to German nobility....but he was the life of the party when flatulent. A real earthy kind of guy, fun to drink beer with.

Don't tell me, LD, that you're just going to wave pom-poms for Luther, and not deal with the substantive explanations and issues addressed in the last few posts?

How 'bout it?[/quote:ed260]I have yet to see you post anything subtantive and in need of any kind of response. Mostly what you say is "I don't worship Mary, I really, really don't."

So, do you have something of worth to respond to? The marian worship has been addressed thoroughly enough by BB and his excellent posts.

Or you can instead turn this into a typical attack on Luther. We are used to that.

 

[Lyric's Dad]

I've been out of the server loop for a while. I see now that there is 100 Gigabit communications and servers that can handle it. That should accomodate all the Catholics who want to send it prayers. We better start worshipping them or they will revolt.

Well, first the screen needs to bleed or cry and an image of mary should melt into the casing.

 

[thessalonian]

deleted

 

[Orthodox Christian]

[quote="Orthodox Christian":841d7][quote="Lyric's Dad":841d7][quote="Orthodox Christian":841d7]

James,

I wonder if they realize that the Jews bowed down before the Ark in Joshua 7 and were granted victory the very next day.

Heavens no! Tear it out of the book!!
At least, that was Luther's approach
:

Oh yes, let's compare apples and oranges. Anything to justify worshiping idols made from the hand of man.....


Luther was one of the best things that happened to the Church.[/quote:841d7]
C'mon now, we was just make small talk waiting for the next salvo of iconoclasm.

Get a sense of humor- we all know Luther was an virulent anti-Semite, a beast, a vulgar Cretin, a sell-out to German nobility....but he was the life of the party when flatulent. A real earthy kind of guy, fun to drink beer with.

Don't tell me, LD, that you're just going to wave pom-poms for Luther, and not deal with the substantive explanations and issues addressed in the last few posts?

How 'bout it?[/quote:841d7]I have yet to see you post anything subtantive and in need of any kind of response. Mostly what you say is "I don't worship Mary, I really, really don't." [/quote:841d7]

My, what an avoidant, name-calling text warrior you are, LD. Here, let me help you to see the relevant points, and thus give you a chance to redeem yourself as a partcipant in this discussion:

You are, obviously, under the impression that spirits take up a specific physical location and continue to exist in the passage of time, in the manner we do as human beings.

One wonders how 2000 demons fit inside a single person, as in the Gospel.

What do you think- do spirits live in space and time, LD? Is it impossible for Mary to hear the prayers of millions over the course of thousands of years on earth if she exists outside time and space?

Or, for that matter, how the devil harasses billions of Christians and tempts billions of others.

Do you attribute omnipresence to Satan? Or do you suppose that he/it has a very large computer database to keep track of all of the weaknesses of humans?

This speaks to the ability that Satan obviously has, which you seem to deny that the Saints of Almighty God who dwell in His Presence do not.
Your answer(s)?

You need to become familiarized with your cultural mores and prejudices. You are speaking through them to matters of the Kingdom, and adding God's stamp of approval to your Stoic European sensibility.

I do not know why it is so difficult for you and yours to understand that worship exists in the heart. Should I prostrate myself before God in my body, should I surrender my very body to be burned, yet have not love, and have not His honor and worship in my heart, I have done and am nothing.

Conversely, if people worship in manner that you find unacceptable, take the time to ascertain what is in their hearts when they worship.

Have you considered these comments? Do you have a response? Do you not see that man judges by the outward appearance, but God sees the heart...?

I find your Stoic, austere approach to spirituality to be, to quote the movie "dry white toast." Your reading of the text contains none of the Near Eastern sensibility to which the Apostles brought in their writing of and living of the Gospel. Worship in the Hebrew mind involves action, involves the whole person, involves position of body. Sentiments in the scriptures are expressed with great vigor, from David shucking his duds and dancing to Jacob bowing before Esau.

So it is to be expected that Christians parade, for example, the epitaphios (tomb) of Christ in procession through the streets on Good Friday.

Have you considered this? Does this at all impact your judgement of a photo wherein people are bowing before a statue, or do you insist that any obeisance toward man, beast, or item is inherently "idolatrous?"

Or how the Catholics parade with a statue of Mary on the day set aside to remember the Annunciation of Gabriel to mary of the Incarnation of Our Blessed Lord.

Did not David set a huge and elaborate procession for the Ark, which he himself went before?

And what of that? How do explain the actions of Jews, which, had we photos of them today, BB would post with commentary on how they worship the devil. I can see his caption now: "The apostate congregation Israel worships a box with statues on it."

So, do you have something of worth to respond to? The marian worship has been addressed thoroughly enough by BB and his excellent posts.

'Do I have something worth responding to'- well, that's in the mind of the person reading what I post, whether it's worth responding to or not.

My question to you is, do you have a reply that is worthy of my comments?

Or you can instead turn this into a typical attack on Luther. We are used to that.

Perhaps the reason why you are "used to that" - is because you sit on the interwurb and lob flingers at Catholics? (flingers are flat, impotent attempted zingers).

Or, as it is written "take up the sword and you shall perish by the sword."

In sum: There are plenty of thoughts I have placed here to deal with. If you chose to play this out as "yer not worth my time," then sobeit. Far be it from me to forcibly liberate anyone from ignorance.

 

[cj]

I see there has been a party going on that I knew nothing of.

Yet, here we are, praise the Lord.

Lets fellowship shall we.


Roots,....... roots are what God looks at. And to what source these roots are connected.

In the case of Romanist Mary-worship, its folly becomes clear when one becomes enlightened concerning the matter of counterfeiting.

What is the truth concerning the matter of counterfeiting?

Is it to profit or destroy?


Mary-worship, no matter what spin the apostates put on it, destroys the Headship of Christ in the life of a believer. Its intented purpose is to turn a believer away from the Person of Christ, and point them towards the usurper.

This is utter wickedness.


In love,
cj


In love,
cj

 

[cj]

Far be it from me to forcibly liberate anyone from ignorance.

You got me to laugh at this one OC.

You,...... liberate another? From scriptural ignorance?


OC,....... it seems you have yet to realize that the ignorance ball is in your court.

First liberate yourself of it.


In love,
cj

 

[D46]

This is a never ending argument. Followers of Marian idolatry will not repent or recant of this false and useless worship. Over and over they've been told, scripture quoted and links galore have been shoved down their throats. They are the blind leading the blind. Too bad there's no mediums around to conjure up the spirit of John Paul to ask him what he thinks of all this now that he's gone and sorry over his blindness in leading a billion people astray. Bet if he could come back he'd tell you to "...come out of her my people that you be not partakers of her sins."

Revelation 18:4 (KJV) And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.

http://jesus-is-savior.com/False%20Reli ... n_hell.htm

http://www.remnantofgod.org/godmary.htm

 

[fiat]

The only scriptures quoted so far have been aimed at what people "think" we believe or their interpretation on how we act. Listen now, as a Catholic, I tell you ONLY God should be the object of our "latria" worship, while those who died in God's friendship should be honored ("dulia") as scripture indicates. (Matt. 10:41b)

Conjuring up the spirit of John Paul? Catholics know that is forbidden by scripture. :wink:
"There shall not be found among you any one who burns his son or his daughter as an offering, any one who practices divination, a soothsayer, or an augur, or a sorcerer, or a charmer, or a medium, or a wizard, or a necromancer. . . . For these nations, which you are about to dispossess, give heed to soothsayers and to diviners; but as for you, the Lord your God has not allowed you so to do. The Lord your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among you, from your brethrenâ€â€him you shall heed" (Deut. 18:10–15).

 

[bibleberean]

The only scriptures quoted so far have been aimed at what people "think" we believe or their interpretation on how we act. Listen now, as a Catholic, I tell you ONLY God should be the object of our "latria" worship, while those who died in God's friendship should be honored ("dulia") as scripture indicates. (Matt. 10:41b)

Conjuring up the spirit of John Paul? Catholics know that is forbidden by scripture. :wink:
"There shall not be found among you any one who burns his son or his daughter as an offering, any one who practices divination, a soothsayer, or an augur, or a sorcerer, or a charmer, or a medium, or a wizard, or a necromancer. . . . For these nations, which you are about to dispossess, give heed to soothsayers and to diviners; but as for you, the Lord your God has not allowed you so to do. The Lord your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among you, from your brethrenâ€â€him you shall heed" (Deut. 18:10–15).

As an ex-Catholic I can tell you that the Roman Catholic church is an idolatrous church.

Saints allegedly appear and ask for prayers to be said for them. The devil goddess known by the deceived RCC is the most evil.

Shrines and groves are made in her honor. Billions and billions of prayers are prayed to her.

Prayers before the statue of Buddha are no different than prayers to Mary.

Lev 26:1 Ye shall make you no idols nor graven image, neither rear you up a standing image, neither shall ye set up any image of stone in your land, to bow down unto it: for I am the LORD your God.

Deuteronomy 29:16 (For ye know how we have dwelt in the land of Egypt; and how we came through the nations which ye passed by;

Deuteronomy 29:17 And ye have seen their abominations, and their idols, wood and stone, silver and gold, which were among them

Deuteronomy 29:18 Lest there should be among you man, or woman, or family, or tribe, whose heart turneth away this day from the LORD our God, to go and serve the gods of these nations; lest there should be among you a root that beareth gall and wormwood;

Mary worship is Mary worship. It is a lie to say she is not worshipped.

She allegedly appears to people. Her statues shed tears and people who go to her shrines have supposedly been healed by her.

Don't use double speak.

2 Kings 23:24 Moreover the workers with familiar spirits, and the wizards, and the images, and the idols, and all the abominations that were spied in the land of Judah and in Jerusalem, did Josiah put away, that he might perform the words of the law which were written in the book that Hilkiah the priest found in the house of the LORD.


Psalms 97:7 Confounded be all they that serve graven images, that boast themselves of idols: worship him, all ye gods.

Prayer to the devil goddess!

Bend Tenderly Over Our Wounds

"Enraptured by the splendor of your heavenly beauty, and impelled by the anxieties of the world, we cast ourselves into your arms, O Immaculate Mother of Jesus and our Mother, Mary, confident of finding in your most loving heart appeasement of our ardent desires, and a safe harbor from the tempests which beset us on every side.


Though degraded by our faults and overwhelmed by infinite misery, we admire and praise the peerless richness of the sublime gifts with which God has filled you, above every other mere creature, from the first moment of your conception until the day on which, after your assumption into heaven, he crowned you Queen of the Universe.


O crystal Fountain of Faith, bathe our minds with the eternal truths! O fragrant Lily of All Holiness, captivate our hearts with your heavenly perfume! O Conqueress of Evil and Death, inspire in us a deep horror of sin, which makes the soul detestable to God and a slave of hell...!

...Receive, O most sweet Mother, our humble supplications, and above all obtain for us that, one day, happy with you, we may repeat before your throne that hymn which today is sung on earth around your altars: You are all-beautiful, O Mary! You are the glory, your are the joy, your are the honor of our people!

Amen.

Pope Pius XII (1876-1958)
(Pontiff 1939-1958)


What a filth ridden prayer and what blatant idolatry!

Isaiah 45:16 They shall be ashamed, and also confounded, all of them: they shall go to confusion together that are makers of idols.

Her groves and shrines are everywhere. She is not the conqueress of evil!

Jesus is! He alone conquered evil. The Roman Catholic goddess did not!

All those who say otherwise are deceivers and apostates.

 

[Theophilus]

Answer me this question. Is there only one God? You answer, "Yes, there is only one Law-giver." Why, then, does He command contrary things? The cherubim are not outside of creation; why, then, does He allow cherubim carved by the hand of man to overshadow the mercy-seat? Is it not evident that as it is impossible to make an image of God, who is uncircumscribed and impassible, or of one like to God, creation should not be worshipped as God. He allows the image of the cherubim who are circumscribed, and prostrate in adoration before the divine throne, to be made, and thus prostrate to overshadow the mercy-seat. It was fitting that the image of the heavenly choirs should overshadow the divine mysteries. Would you say that the ark and staff and mercy-scat were not made? Are they not produced by the hand of man? Are they not due to what you call contemptible matter? What was the tabernacle itself? Was it not an image? Was it not a type and a figure? Hence the holy Apostle's words concerning the observances of the law, "Who serve unto the example and shadow, of heavenly things." As it was answered to Moses, when he was to finish the tabernacle: "See" (He says), "that thou make all things according to the pattern which was shown thee on the Mount." But the law ,-,,as not an image. It shrouded the image. In the words of the same Apostle, the law, contains the shadow of the goods to come, not the image of those things. For if the law should forbid images, and vet be itself a forerunner of images, what should we say? If the tabernacle 'was a figure, and the type of a type, why does the law not prohibit image-making? But this is not in the least the case. There is a time for everything.

Of old, God the incorporeal and uncircumscribed was never depicted. Now, however, when God is seen clothed in flesh, and conversing with men, I make an image of the God whom I see. I do not worship matter, I worship the God of matter, who became matter for my sake, and deigned to inhabit matter, who worked out my salvation through matter. I will not cease from honouring that matter which works my salvation. I venerate it, though not as God. How could God be born out of lifeless things? And if God's body is God by union, it is immutable. The nature of God remains the same as before, the flesh created in time is quickened by, a logical and reasoning soul.

I honour all matter besides, and venerate it. Through it, filled, as it were, me. Was not the with a divine power and grace, my salvation has come to thrice happy and thrice blessed wood of the Cross matter? Was not the sacred and holy mountain of Calvary matter? What of the life-giving rock, the Holy Sepulchre, the source of our resurrection: was it not matter? Is not the most holy book of the Gospels matter? Is not the blessed table matter which gives us the Bread of Life' Are not the gold and silver matter, out of which crosses and altar-plate and chalices are made? And before all these things, is not the body and blood of our Lord matter? Either do away with the veneration due to all these things, or submit to the tradition of the Church in the veneration of images, honouring God and His friends, and following in this the grace of the Holy Spirit.

from St. John Damascene On Holy Images

 

[Theophilus]

Brothers this conflict has been raging for centuries. Will it ever be solved? Only GOD knows. In the mean time I would ask that we not make the split even greater by the use of harsh words towards each other or the slander of those who have passed on to be ALIVE in Christ. Popes who may or may not be with Christ. If they are you have spoken evil of a member of his body. If they are not, they have already received their judgement. (Can you pass a greater one) As for Mary, she is the mother of our Lord. She is not a demon or devil goddess. She carried the very creator of the universe in her womb. She gave birth to the One with no beginning. She taught the Almighty how to walk. When he fell and cried she Comforted him. Can he have less love for her then you or I do for our own mothers?
Icons, You say NO. We say yes. Let us disagree and debate without falling in to the same mistake St Jude tells us about in his epistle

8 Likewise also these dreamers defile the flesh, reject authority, and speak evil of dignitaries. 9 Yet Michael the archangel, in contending with the devil, when he disputed about the body of Moses, dared not bring against him a reviling accusation, but said, “The Lord rebuke you!†10 But these speak evil of whatever they do not know; and whatever they know naturally, like brute beasts, in these things they corrupt themselves.

[/i][/quote]

 

[fiat]

Theophilus,
Welcome brother. The quote from St. John was BEAUTIFUL!

 

[Orthodox Christian]

Excellent posts, Theophilus. Welcome to the forum.

Iakovos

 

[bibleberean]

The RCC and OC churches... (not Christian churches) worship Mary and other phony saints.

This issue has always been resolved. The argument that these deceived souls use to justify spiritual fornication does not hold water.

Just because they claim to worship the true God and hold Him above Mary is not a valid excuse for their prayers and supplications to their devil goddess.

The Israelites when they fell into idolatry also worshipped God but at the same time had shrines and groves to other gods.


The Queen of Heaven was one of their gods as is she is the god of the RCC and other apostate churches today.

Things have not changed. It was idolatry then it is idolatry now.

Jeremiah 7:18 The children gather wood, and the fathers kindle the fire, and the women knead their dough, to make cakes to the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto other gods, that they may provoke me to anger.

They can make whatever lame excuses they choose but these excuses are as dung as in the eyes of the Lord.

These churches pray to icons and statues. They believe supernatural powers come from them.

Let God speak for Himself concerning these vile practices and the apostates that promote them...

Psalms 115:4 Their idols are silver and gold, the work of men's hands.

Psalms 115:5 They have mouths, but they speak not: eyes have they, but they see not:

Psalms 115:6 They have ears, but they hear not: noses have they, but they smell not:

Psalms 115:7 They have hands, but they handle not: feet have they, but they walk not: neither speak they through their throat.

Psalms 115:8 They that make them are like unto them; so is every one that trusteth in them.

 

[cj]

As wonderful as all you speak might sound, as it tickles ears,..... the content lacks reality, and thus is really nothing in the column of profit to the building up of the Lord's body.

Lets just take a look at this opening statement of yours....

Brothers this conflict has been raging for centuries. Will it ever be solved? Only GOD knows.

Are you serious........ "Will it ever be solved?..... Only God knows."

Have you read the bible?

There is no such thing as "Will it be solved", but only "When will God's accomplished solution be fully manifested."


Fact is, you deny God with your statement above.

Really, and you want a believing audience to receive your speaking?


This kind of speaking is fraught with vanity and should be absolutely rejected by believers.



Theophilus, oneness is not accomplished by our efforts to "not make the split any greater", but by our humbling ourselves and receiving the true completing ministry of God.

Christ is our oneness, and we all as born-again believers have this Christ, this oneness in us.

The fact is, we already posess oneness, and His name is Jesus.

But we lose the expression of this oneness when we add corrupting elements to it as we pursue our lusts.

And the issue of these lusts are illustrated in the many demonic hallways of apostate institutions, such as the Orthodox religion.


In love,
cj

 

[Orthodox Christian]

Protestant Fundamentalists worship an idol of leather and paper. Their God is not Incarnate, but is the composite of their readings of dead letters.

In their Pietist fervor, they fashion a golden calf made of the melted down trinkets their Shepherds toss to them. But, if Pastor says something they disagree with, they replace him with someone who says what their itching, stiff-necked, jackass ears want to hear.

Assuredly, therefore, they bow down before their own feeble intellects, which in the case of many is a drooling spastic 'god' indeed.

Some individuals here on this forum insist on telling us what it is that we worship. This demonstrates their arrogance and stupidity. Too thick-headed to listen and learn and understand, they instead l(ike brute animals at a grain trough) push, bite and devour.

Their damnation is sure and swift, for they shall spend eternity cursing the Saints they cursed in this life, and spitting in the face of Christ. If allowed from heaven, I will pelt them with large rocks from above- cuz I find no creature more deserving of contempt than the modern Pharisee.

Bible as the final authority? Somewhere along the way Christ as the final authority got left behind.