The Virgin of the Lilies

[thessalonian]

dang

 

[thessalonian]

double

 

[thessalonian]

Where in the Bible do you see anyone PRAYING to departed souls?

Where in the Bible do you find prayers to Mary?

Where in the Bible do you see it saying that the Bible alone is where we are to find everything explicitly stated. We find the concept of asking for intercession in scripture in 1 Tim 2:1-4. We find the idea that Christians are members of the body of Christ in 1 Cor 12 and Romans 12 and that the different parts cannot do without one another. We find in Romans 8 that death does not separate us from the body of Christ. "neither death, not life nor principalities...can separate us from the love of God. We find that God is not the God of the dead but the God of the living with reference to Abraham who had long since died. So we know that those beyond the grave who persevered are among the living. They are even more alive than us. We find that in heaven they offer their prayers mixed with ours before the thrown of God.

Rev 8
[3] And another angel came and stood at the altar with a golden censer; and he was given much incense to mingle with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar before the throne;
[4] and the smoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God.

So the info is there.


By the way, have you ever done an altar call? How do you feel about them? Were you baptized at it? Wedding rings?

Blessings

 

[Orthodox Christian]

Where in the Bible do you see anyone PRAYING to departed souls?

Where in the Bible do you find prayers to Mary?

We don't. We also do not see the Trinity in the bible, or orthodox Christology (fully God, fully man). Each of these are examples of scriptural application by means of scriptural interpretation.

Another example of this is 'sola scriptura.' We know that we do not see this phrase in scripture. When that is brought to the attention of those who cite sola scriptura as their watchword, they inevitably refer to the "all scipture is profitable" passage. This is again an example of scriptural application.

Where in the bible do we find a list of what is 'all scripture?' We do not find it anywhere in the bible- unless you think that the table of contents page was there in the year 95 AD.

A very good scriptural application argument can be made regarding asking saints alive AND departed to pray for us. No one, I believe, would argue with asking prayer of saints who are still in the flesh. Asking prayer of those who have departed requires that 1. the saints who have departed are alive in heaven 2. the saints who are in heaven can make effectual intercession, and are motivated to do so.

The argument is the same with Mary, for she is a departed saint.

If one has an argument with points 1 or 2, or both, then one would be disinclined to request intercession of the departed saints. Since I find points 1 and 2 to be both biblical and self-evident, I see the practice of requesting saintly intercession as sound bibilcal application.

 

[Gary]

Does Mary answer your prayers?

 

[thessalonian]

Does Mary answer your prayers?

You need to answer my question first. I asked, have you ever been to or participated in an altar call? Were you or were other's baptized? If you have not attended an altar call how do you feel about them? Especially ones where baptisms are not performed. My question is pertinent to the discussion.

 

[Karma2Grace]

Mary is a insignificant figure in bible when compare to apostles, She is blessed among the womans that is it, She needs Christ to save herself from hell

Luke 1:46 "And Mary said: My soul magnifies the Lord"
Luke 1:47 "And my spirit has rejoiced in God my Savior"

She is not remained as a virgin after the birth of Christ

Matthew 1:24 Then Joseph, being aroused from sleep, did as the angel of the Lord commanded him and took to him his wife,

Matthew 1:25 "and did not know her till she had brought forth her firstborn Son. And he called His name Jesus."


Peter being the rock in Matthew 16:18 is meaningless in giving the Roman Catholic Church any authority. Peter was not the first pope and Peter did not start the Roman Catholic Church. If Peter truly was the founder of the Roman Catholic Church, they would be in agreement with what Peter taught (Acts 2, 1 Peter, 2 Peter).

Thanks

 

[Orthodox Christian]

Does Mary answer your prayers?

Wrong question. It is not given Mary to answer prayers.

Correct question: does Mary and/or other saints pray for/intercede for you as you ask?
Correct second question: Does God hear and grant their prayers.

Answer the first: I believe so, yes
Answer the second: hear their prayers? Absolutely. Grant them? I believe so.

Another interesting speculative question is whether the saints intercede and yet the Lord say 'no,' as He does to us. I doubt it, for I doubt they intercede in our human limitation, but rather, seeing fully, as 1 corinthians 13 says, they know what to pray for.

In all candor, I do not always pray for what people ask me to pray for them. I pray as I am led, and sometimes that is at odds with the specific request of the person seeking intercessory prayer.

 

[thessalonian]

Does Mary answer your prayers?

Since OC has answered I will as well. No, Mary has not ever answered one of my prayers. Yet I have attained the requests that I have submitted to God through her in some astonishing ways. I can only attribute these interventinos to God in response to her intercession on my behalf. Now are you going to answer my question or not?

 

[Gary]

No need to answer your question.... we have no altar in our church.

Do you think that the first Christians had altars in their homes where they met?

 

[thessalonian]

No need to answer your question.... we have no altar in our church.

Do you think that the first Christians had altars in their homes where they met?

Gary,

It's not a Catholic practice Gary, if that is what you are implying. Many Protestant Churches have altar calls. It is not because they have altars (though I do find this to be interestingly funny) but that is just what they call them. How do you feel about the practice? Do you know what an altar call is? How do you feel about Billy Graham? It's his bread and butter at the end of the crusade.

 

[Gary]

OC claimed: No one, I believe, would argue with asking prayer of saints who are still in the flesh. Asking prayer of those who have departed requires that 1. the saints who have departed are alive in heaven 2. the saints who are in heaven can make effectual intercession, and are motivated to do so.

The argument is the same with Mary, for she is a departed saint.

If one has an argument with points 1 or 2, or both, then one would be disinclined to request intercession of the departed saints. Since I find points 1 and 2 to be both biblical and self-evident, I see the practice of requesting saintly intercession as sound bibilcal application.

Let us analyze your argument.

1. the saints who have departed are alive in heaven

I agree.

2. the saints who are in heaven can make effectual intercession, and are motivated to do so.

You are missing several other points BEFORE this assumption.

You have to assume
1a. Your prayers to departed saints are heard by those saints
1b. Mary is capably of hearing the prayers of 1 billion Roman Catholics several times each day

:o

 

[Orthodox Christian]

No need to answer your question.... we have no altar in our church.

Do you think that the first Christians had altars in their homes where they met?

Are you going to play 20 questions, or take responsibility for the questions you have asked that have been answered?

I will respond to your question with a question:

Is there an altar in heaven?
If so, why is there not one in your church?

 

[Gary]

Is there an altar in heaven?
If so, why is there not one in your church?

There are many things in heaven which are not in our (physical) church here on earth.

Anyway, my church is the family of born-again Christian believers.

 

[thessalonian]

Is there an altar in heaven?
If so, why is there not one in your church?

There are many things in heaven which are not in our (physical) church here on earth.

Anyway, my church is the family of born-again Christian believers.

Are some of them born again through Billy Graham altar calls? Altars not included. :D

:multi: By the way, I am looking forward to responding to 1a and 1b above with scripture so could you hurry it up a bit. Thanks. :D :multi:

 

[Orthodox Christian]

OC claimed: No one, I believe, would argue with asking prayer of saints who are still in the flesh. Asking prayer of those who have departed requires that 1. the saints who have departed are alive in heaven 2. the saints who are in heaven can make effectual intercession, and are motivated to do so.

The argument is the same with Mary, for she is a departed saint.

If one has an argument with points 1 or 2, or both, then one would be disinclined to request intercession of the departed saints. Since I find points 1 and 2 to be both biblical and self-evident, I see the practice of requesting saintly intercession as sound bibilcal application.

Let us analyze your argument.

[quote:ecc78]1. the saints who have departed are alive in heaven

I agree.

2. the saints who are in heaven can make effectual intercession, and are motivated to do so.

You are missing several other points BEFORE this assumption.

You have to assume
1a. Your prayers to departed saints are heard by those saints
1b. Mary is capably of hearing the prayers of 1 billion Roman Catholics several times each day

:o[/quote:ecc78]
Pull your eyes back in, Gary, you look like a Pekinese.

I have made the case to this point for the practice being allowable and biblical. In contrast to your assertion, your questions should come AFTER question the second. They deal with the possibility and efficaciousness of the practice, not its permissibility and rationality.

Can Saints hear my requests for intercession? Since the cloud of witnesses encompasses us (literally wraps around us as a blanket) according the epistle to the Hebrews, they are within proximity to hear. Since I request aloud the intercession of same, we needn't delve speculatively into the vehicle of their hearing.

How many prayer requests can Mary receive at one time?
I don't know, but it doesn't really matter. In church, I'm sure that you as well as we will make requests that God hear and grant the requests of all.

If Mary received one thousand requests within one earth second, would she be travelling along in time with us, limited to hearing and responding by the passage of time? Does Mary have adequate time to get to all requests? Moreover, does God require a timely intercession?

I mean, if you want to get into it Gary, contemplate the platform from which God and the holy angels and the saints of all time look upon us. Our minds are not capable of dealing with eternity except by way of analogy, so please excuse the crudeness of my explanation.

 

[Gary]

No need to answer your question.... we have no altar in our church.

Do you think that the first Christians had altars in their homes where they met?

Gary,

It's not a Catholic practice Gary, if that is what you are implying. Many Protestant Churches have altar calls. It is not because they have altars (though I do find this to be interestingly funny) but that is just what they call them. How do you feel about the practice? Do you know what an altar call is? How do you feel about Billy Graham? It's his bread and butter at the end of the crusade.

Having an altar is not a Roman Catholic practice? I went to mass a few months ago. There was an altar there.

You seem to want to define an "altar call". Please go ahead and do that.

You asked how I feel about Billy Graham.... I feel sorry for him now. He is an old and sick man. May God bless him! I have not seen or watched a Billy Graham crusade so I don't know his "bread and butter."

I have read (somewhere) that he has brought many people to Christian faith. Do you think that is true?

.

 

[thessalonian]

Having an altar is not a Roman Catholic practice? I went to mass a few months ago. There was an altar there.

Nope it is not.

You seem to want to define an "altar call". Please go ahead and do that.

No, I really did not. Since it is a protestant practice I thought you would. But since you don't know about them it is a practice where an evangelist goes up and preaches to people, perhaps hundreds or even hundreds of thousdands. At the end they are called forward (altar call) as many as want to say a sinners prayer and declare Jesus Christ as personal Lord and Savior. These then are said to be "saved" Chrisitans. What do you think of this practice.

You asked how I feel about Billy Graham.... I feel sorry for him now. He is an old and sick man. May God bless him! I have not seen or watched a Billy Graham crusade so I don't know his "bread and butter."

Explained above.

I have read (somewhere) that he has brought many people to Christian faith. Do you think that is true?

I don't want my answer to bias yours because that is exactly what I am asking. So what do you think of this practice of his and other evangelical Christians?

 

[thessalonian]

Gary,

You said:

You are missing several other points BEFORE this assumption.

You have to assume
1a. Your prayers to departed saints are heard by those saints
1b. Mary is capably of hearing the prayers of 1 billion Roman Catholics several times each day

I expected you to bring these two points up. In fact I was hoping you would. :multi:

Response to 1A.
As OC illuded to above we have Hebrews 12:1 "we are surrounded by a cloud of witnesses" to demonstrate that those in heaven have a good idea of what is going on. But there is more than that. We are told in Matt 19 that the Apostles would sit on thrones judging the 12 tribes of Israel.

Matt 19
[28] Jesus said to them, "Truly, I say to you, in the new world, when the Son of man shall sit on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Now how do you suppose they are going to judge rightly, having know ability to see or hear what is going on.

We are told there is great rejoicing in heaven over one repentent sinner.

Luke
[7] Just so, I tell you, there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who need no repentance.

This even indicates that they have some way of knowing what goes on in the silence of our hearts. That God allows them to know of our repentence. Thus it is clear that they can know what is going on here. It is actually contrary to scripture that they cannot. By the way, how many sinners do you suppose could repent at once?

Answer to 1B - How can Mary hear all those prayers at once? That's a very good question and one that I doudt I will be able to answer adequately for you as the answer I have does not bound it such that I can say exactly how. I can give analogies in the physical realm. For instance if I go on the radio I can speak and my voice can be simultaneiously heard throughout the world to everyone tuned in to that frequency. Am I omnipresent? No. Is there any reason to believe that we as sinful, corrupt human being can do more than those in heaven? No.

Now let's look at an example that deals directly with 'how can Mary hear all those prayers. I happen to know a little about the internet. There are devices that communicate at a speed of 100 Gigabits per second. That is 100 billion bits or around 10 billion bytes. A bit can capture one letter of the alphabet. So these computers with just one communication line can "hear" and process 10 billion letters per second. 1 billion words per second. Dang, that's amazing and we have not invented the fastest communcations or computers yet. Does this make them God? No. I would not bow down to them. The fact of the matter is that these physical devices can do it. Scripture nowhere tells us what men can do in heaven. But it does say "eye has not seen nor ear heard what God has ready for those who love him". What are the limits? Well we are told in scripture that if we had faith the size of a mustard seed we could move a mountain. Of course this would be done though access to the power of God through faith. In heaven our faith is perfected and we have complete access to God so I am not going to be one to limit what those in heaven can or cannot do. I think OC's explanation above is instrumental in this regard. Prayers by all the people in the world is a finite problem. A very large one but finite. It does not require God per se though I would say his help in solving it would be nice. To that end I hold out much hope and little reason to doudt that the Catholic teaching on Mary and the saints is not foiled by this problem.

Blessings

 

[AwedbyGod]

Hi James,

Nice to see you are still chipping away at the walls of ignorance.

ABG