The Westminster Confession of Faith Blasphemy

[SolaScriptura]

The Westminster Confession of Faith Says That God was PLEASED With The Fall of The Human Race.

“Our first parents were led astray by the cunning temptation of Satan and sinned in eating the forbidden fruit. It pleased God to allow them to sin, because in his wisdom and holiness he planned to order their sin to his own glory” (On the Fall of Man, https://epc.org/wp-content/uploads/Files/1-Who-We-Are/B-About-The-EPC/WCF-ModernEnglish.pdf)

Not only does the WCF say that God was PLEASED to ALLOW Adam and Eve to sin, and therefore the entire human race. But, it goes on to say, that God so PLANNED to ORDER THEIR SIN TO HIS OWN GLORY.

This is the highest form of BLASPHEMY, as it clearly makes God the AUTHOR of our sins, and that He takes PLEASURE in our SINNING!!!

The Oxford English Dictionary defines PLEASED:

“Affected by feelings of satisfaction or pleasure; contented, gratified, in good humour”

And ORDER:

“Of the Deity, etc.: To regulate or determine (occurrences, events, etc.); to ordain”

This is 100% AGAINST the Teachings of the Holy Bible, and must be REJECTED, as from hell!

 

[Eddie42]

The Westminster Confession of Faith Says That God was PLEASED With The Fall of The Human Race.

“Our first parents were led astray by the cunning temptation of Satan and sinned in eating the forbidden fruit. It pleased God to allow them to sin, because in his wisdom and holiness he planned to order their sin to his own glory” (On the Fall of Man, https://epc.org/wp-content/uploads/Files/1-Who-We-Are/B-About-The-EPC/WCF-ModernEnglish.pdf)

Not only does the WCF say that God was PLEASED to ALLOW Adam and Eve to sin, and therefore the entire human race. But, it goes on to say, that God so PLANNED to ORDER THEIR SIN TO HIS OWN GLORY.

This is the highest form of BLASPHEMY, as it clearly makes God the AUTHOR of our sins, and that He takes PLEASURE in our SINNING!!!

The Oxford English Dictionary defines PLEASED:

“Affected by feelings of satisfaction or pleasure; contented, gratified, in good humour”

And ORDER:

“Of the Deity, etc.: To regulate or determine (occurrences, events, etc.); to ordain”

This is 100% AGAINST the Teachings of the Holy Bible, and must be REJECTED, as from hell!

If I were you, I'd tread lightly here, when calling a respected confession as the Westminster "blasphemous".

First, present the original Westminster Confession wording, not someone's idea of modern English:

"Our first parents, being seduced by the subtilty and temptation of Satan, sinned, in eating the forbidden fruit. This their sin, God was pleased, according to His wise and holy counsel, to permit, having purposed to order it to His own glory." Sect. 6, para. 1

Collins Dictionary:
Pleased "saying in a polite way that you are willing to do it"

Cambridge Advanced Learner's Dictionary:
Pleased "to be very willing to do something"

Therefore the sentence in question would read: "This their sin, God was willing.... to permit..." God does not have emotions and feelings as humans do. What God wills, he does!

The Confession reads it was our first parent who sinned, not God!! God, "according to His wise and holy counsel" permitted it. That does NOT make God the author of sin. Who are we, mere mortals, to judge God's actions, whether we can understand the problem or mystery of evil or not. For those who wish to delve into the deeper approaches to this, you can check out the following:

"...so far as finite minds can follow them, even the evils tend towards the good. Hence, the presumptive probability is in favor of a solution of the mystery, consistent with the infinite perfections of God. To sustain that presumption against the impugner, we have only to make the hypothesis, that for reasons we cannot see, God saw it was not possible to separate the existing evils from that system which, as a whole, satisfied His own properest ends. Now let the skeptic disprove that hypothesis! To do so, he must have omniscience. Do you say, I cannot demonstrate it? Very true; for neither am I omniscient. But I have proved that the reasonable presumption is in favor of the hypothesis; that it may be true, although we cannot explain how it comes to be true."
Robert L. Dabney, Systematic Theology

https://www.grace-ebooks.com/library/Robert%20Dabney/RLD_Systematic%20Theology.pdf

On such deep matters as this, I'll leave it up to the incomprehensible God:

"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, nor are your ways my ways, says the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts." (Isa 55:8-9, NRSV)

“Can you find out the deep things of God? Can you find out the limit of the Almighty? It is higher than heaven—what can you do? Deeper than Sheol—what can you know? Its measure is longer than the earth, and broader than the sea." (Job 11:7-9, NRSV)

 

[GodsGrace]

The Westminster Confession of Faith Says That God was PLEASED With The Fall of The Human Race.

“Our first parents were led astray by the cunning temptation of Satan and sinned in eating the forbidden fruit. It pleased God to allow them to sin, because in his wisdom and holiness he planned to order their sin to his own glory” (On the Fall of Man, https://epc.org/wp-content/uploads/Files/1-Who-We-Are/B-About-The-EPC/WCF-ModernEnglish.pdf)

Not only does the WCF say that God was PLEASED to ALLOW Adam and Eve to sin, and therefore the entire human race. But, it goes on to say, that God so PLANNED to ORDER THEIR SIN TO HIS OWN GLORY.

This is the highest form of BLASPHEMY, as it clearly makes God the AUTHOR of our sins, and that He takes PLEASURE in our SINNING!!!

The Oxford English Dictionary defines PLEASED:

“Affected by feelings of satisfaction or pleasure; contented, gratified, in good humour”

And ORDER:

“Of the Deity, etc.: To regulate or determine (occurrences, events, etc.); to ordain”

This is 100% AGAINST the Teachings of the Holy Bible, and must be REJECTED, as from hell!

I'd like to add that changing God Almighty into a selfish monster is also blasphemous.

Calvinism, or reformed theology, is a heresy.

 

[GodsGrace]

If I were you, I'd tread lightly here, when calling a respected confession as the Westminster "blasphemous".

First, present the original Westminster Confession wording, not someone's idea of modern English:

"Our first parents, being seduced by the subtilty and temptation of Satan, sinned, in eating the forbidden fruit. This their sin, God was pleased, according to His wise and holy counsel, to permit, having purposed to order it to His own glory." Sect. 6, para. 1

Collins Dictionary:
Pleased "saying in a polite way that you are willing to do it"

Cambridge Advanced Learner's Dictionary:
Pleased "to be very willing to do something"

Therefore the sentence in question would read: "This their sin, God was willing.... to permit..." God does not have emotions and feelings as humans do. What God wills, he does!

The Confession reads it was our first parent who sinned, not God!! God, "according to His wise and holy counsel" permitted it. That does NOT make God the author of sin. Who are we, mere mortals, to judge God's actions, whether we can understand the problem or mystery of evil or not. For those who wish to delve into the deeper approaches to this, you can check out the following:

"...so far as finite minds can follow them, even the evils tend towards the good. Hence, the presumptive probability is in favor of a solution of the mystery, consistent with the infinite perfections of God. To sustain that presumption against the impugner, we have only to make the hypothesis, that for reasons we cannot see, God saw it was not possible to separate the existing evils from that system which, as a whole, satisfied His own properest ends. Now let the skeptic disprove that hypothesis! To do so, he must have omniscience. Do you say, I cannot demonstrate it? Very true; for neither am I omniscient. But I have proved that the reasonable presumption is in favor of the hypothesis; that it may be true, although we cannot explain how it comes to be true."
Robert L. Dabney, Systematic Theology

https://www.grace-ebooks.com/library/Robert%20Dabney/RLD_Systematic%20Theology.pdf

On such deep matters as this, I'll leave it up to the incomprehensible God:

"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, nor are your ways my ways, says the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts." (Isa 55:8-9, NRSV)

“Can you find out the deep things of God? Can you find out the limit of the Almighty? It is higher than heaven—what can you do? Deeper than Sheol—what can you know? Its measure is longer than the earth, and broader than the sea." (Job 11:7-9, NRSV)

Why are you reading the NRSV?

Isn't it someone's idea of modern English?

 

[for_his_glory]

"Our first parents, being seduced by the subtilty and temptation of Satan, sinned, in eating the forbidden fruit. This their sin, God was pleased, according to His wise and holy counsel, to permit, having purposed to order it to His own glory." Sect. 6, para. 1

This is blasphemy as God created us to be holy without blame before Him as we were made in His image, Genesis 1:27; Ephesians 1:3-4.

Do we believe in the WCF or any other of the 5000 different religions statements of faith, or do we believe in that which God gave to His Prophets and Apostles to write. It is blasphemy to say God was/is pleased with sin.

Gen 6:5 And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
Gen 6:6 And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.
Gen 6:7 And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.
Gen 6:8 But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.


Look at verse 6, does it look like God was pleased with the fall of the human race!!! No, He was about to destroy the human race as they were evil. If it would not have been for Noah in whom God found favor in for his great faith all mankind would have been annihilated.

 

[Fastfredy0]

"Our first parents, being seduced by the subtilty and temptation of Satan, sinned, in eating the forbidden fruit. This their sin, God was pleased, according to His wise and holy counsel, to permit, having purposed to order it to His own glory." Sect. 6, para. 1

I'm with you Eddie.

It is blasphemy and arrogance to think God did not know what His creation would do in time. It is blasphemy and arrogance to assign ignorance to God. It is blasphemy and arrogance to deny His plan is not the wisest plan. It is blasphemy and arrogance to think the God is not all powerful an thus able to have His creation go according to His plan.

Romans 9:20 On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers [arrogantly] back to God and dares to defy Him? Will the thing which is formed say to him who formed it, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 Does the potter not have the right over the clay, to make from the same lump [of clay] one object for honorable use [something beautiful or distinctive] and another for common use [something ordinary or menial]? 22 What if God, although willing to show His [terrible] wrath and to make His power known, has tolerated with great patience the objects of His wrath [which are] prepared for destruction? 23 And what if He has done so to make known the riches of His glory to the objects of His mercy, which He has prepared beforehand for glory,

Psalm 135:6 “Whatsoever the LORD pleased, that did he in heaven, and in earth, in the seas, and all deep places”. It is blasphemy and arrogance to state that all things do not go according to God's pleasure. Isaiah 14:24 The Lord of hosts has sworn [an oath], saying, “Just as I have intended, so it has certainly happened, and just as I have planned, so it will stand—

Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

1. There is a concurrence of God to all the acts of the creature (Acts 17:28); “in him we live, and move, and have our being.” We depend upon God in our acting as well as in our being: there is as much an efficacy of God in our motion (Colossians 1:17 And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together, Hebrews 1:3) as in our production; as none have life without his power in producing it, so none have any operation without his providence concurring with it. Hence man is compared to an axe (Isaiah 10:15), an instrument that hath no action, without the co-operation of a superior agent handling it: and the actions of the second causes are ascribed to God. Let his concurrence be removed, and the being and action of the creature cease. To make the creature independent of God in anything which speaks perfection, is to make the creature a sovereign being. Indeed, we cannot imagine the concurrence of God to the good actions of men since the fall, without granting a concurrence of God to evil actions; because there is no action so purely good but hath a mixture of evil in it, though it takes its denomination of good from the better part (Ecclesiastes 7:20), “There is no man that doth good, and sins not.”
2. Though the natural virtue of doing a sinful action be from God, and supported by him, yet this doth not blemish the holiness of God; while God concurs with them in the [physical] act, he instils no evil into men. But the estimation of the moral goodness or evil is not from the [physical] act itself, but from the disposition of the mind. [For instance:] killing, as an act is good; nor is it unlawful as an act; for if so, God would never have commanded his people Israel to wage any war. It is not the material part of the act, but the object, manner, and circumstance, that makes it good or evil. It is no blemish to God’s holiness to concur to the substance of an action, without having any hand in the immorality of it. God hath one end in his concurrence, and man another in his action: so that there is a righteous, and often a gracious end in God, when there is a base and unworthy end in man. God orders both the action wherein he concurs, and the sinfulness over which he presides, as a governor, to his own ends. In Joseph’s case, man was sinful, and God merciful; his brethren acted “envy,” and God designed “mercy” (Genesis 45:4, 5). Genesis 50:20 “Ye thought evil against me, but God meant it unto good.” Acts 2:23; Acts 4:27-28
Charnock, Stephen. The Existence and Attributes of God .

Psalm 115:3 Our God is in the heavens, He hath done whatsoever He hath pleased.
The most evil event ever and God states: Isaiah 53:10 “it pleased the Lord to bruise Him”.

 

[jasonc]

I'm with you Eddie.

It is blasphemy and arrogance to think God did not know what His creation would do in time. It is blasphemy and arrogance to assign ignorance to God. It is blasphemy and arrogance to deny His plan is not the wisest plan. It is blasphemy and arrogance to think the God is not all powerful an thus able to have His creation go according to His plan.

Romans 9:20 On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers [arrogantly] back to God and dares to defy Him? Will the thing which is formed say to him who formed it, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 Does the potter not have the right over the clay, to make from the same lump [of clay] one object for honorable use [something beautiful or distinctive] and another for common use [something ordinary or menial]? 22 What if God, although willing to show His [terrible] wrath and to make His power known, has tolerated with great patience the objects of His wrath [which are] prepared for destruction? 23 And what if He has done so to make known the riches of His glory to the objects of His mercy, which He has prepared beforehand for glory,

Psalm 135:6 “Whatsoever the LORD pleased, that did he in heaven, and in earth, in the seas, and all deep places”. It is blasphemy and arrogance to state that all things do not go according to God's pleasure. Isaiah 14:24 The Lord of hosts has sworn [an oath], saying, “Just as I have intended, so it has certainly happened, and just as I have planned, so it will stand—

Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

1. There is a concurrence of God to all the acts of the creature (Acts 17:28); “in him we live, and move, and have our being.” We depend upon God in our acting as well as in our being: there is as much an efficacy of God in our motion (Colossians 1:17 And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together, Hebrews 1:3) as in our production; as none have life without his power in producing it, so none have any operation without his providence concurring with it. Hence man is compared to an axe (Isaiah 10:15), an instrument that hath no action, without the co-operation of a superior agent handling it: and the actions of the second causes are ascribed to God. Let his concurrence be removed, and the being and action of the creature cease. To make the creature independent of God in anything which speaks perfection, is to make the creature a sovereign being. Indeed, we cannot imagine the concurrence of God to the good actions of men since the fall, without granting a concurrence of God to evil actions; because there is no action so purely good but hath a mixture of evil in it, though it takes its denomination of good from the better part (Ecclesiastes 7:20), “There is no man that doth good, and sins not.”
2. Though the natural virtue of doing a sinful action be from God, and supported by him, yet this doth not blemish the holiness of God; while God concurs with them in the [physical] act, he instils no evil into men. But the estimation of the moral goodness or evil is not from the [physical] act itself, but from the disposition of the mind. [For instance:] killing, as an act is good; nor is it unlawful as an act; for if so, God would never have commanded his people Israel to wage any war. It is not the material part of the act, but the object, manner, and circumstance, that makes it good or evil. It is no blemish to God’s holiness to concur to the substance of an action, without having any hand in the immorality of it. God hath one end in his concurrence, and man another in his action: so that there is a righteous, and often a gracious end in God, when there is a base and unworthy end in man. God orders both the action wherein he concurs, and the sinfulness over which he presides, as a governor, to his own ends. In Joseph’s case, man was sinful, and God merciful; his brethren acted “envy,” and God designed “mercy” (Genesis 45:4, 5). Genesis 50:20 “Ye thought evil against me, but God meant it unto good.” Acts 2:23; Acts 4:27-28
Charnock, Stephen. The Existence and Attributes of God .

Psalm 115:3 Our God is in the heavens, He hath done whatsoever He hath pleased.
The most evil event ever and God states: Isaiah 53:10 “it pleased the Lord to bruise Him”.

I had to avoid this thread .the hatred of the church I go to .I'm not either side myself but to think God doesn't account for us .or that we can change .

I could go into how no matter what it seems some aren't delivered and die saved but battles with depression .PTSD or other health issue .may be God used that and wanted that to reach and for his glory .

Arminist forget that their side of I can make myself etc .is taught .see the idea of sinless perfection espoused and taught by Wesley since the founding of our country !

 

[for_his_glory]

It is blasphemy and arrogance to think God did not know what His creation would do in time. It is blasphemy and arrogance to assign ignorance to God. It is blasphemy and arrogance to deny His plan is not the wisest plan. It is blasphemy and arrogance to think the God is not all powerful an thus able to have His creation go according to His plan.

Was it God's plan to have man fall instead of being holy and blameless before Him?

After all, were we not all made in His image? Was any part of God's image sinful like that of what He found in the evil hearts of men and He was about to destroy them because it repented God that He created man?

It wasn't until the rebellion of Satan that God then saw the iniquity that was in Satan and that is why he was cut down to the ground when iniquity was found in him while being placed by God in the garden of Eden as an anointed cherub. It was Satan who caused himself to be cut down to the ground which through his deceit and lies did weakened the nations/people beginning with deceiving Adam and Eve.

None of this was God's plan in the beginning, except His plan of salvation through Christ, but only after the fall of Satan before the creation of man.

 

[Eddie42]

Was it God's plan to have man fall instead of being holy and blameless before Him?

After all, were we not all made in His image? Was any part of God's image sinful like that of what He found in the evil hearts of men and He was about to destroy them because it repented God that He created man?

It wasn't until the rebellion of Satan that God then saw the iniquity that was in Satan and that is why he was cut down to the ground when iniquity was found in him while being placed by God in the garden of Eden as an anointed cherub. It was Satan who caused himself to be cut down to the ground which through his deceit and lies did weakened the nations/people beginning with deceiving Adam and Eve.

None of this was God's plan in the beginning, except His plan of salvation through Christ, but only after the fall of Satan before the creation of man.

Is Yahweh Omniscient and Omnipotent or is he not? Wasn't the Son predestined to come save sinners before creation itself? It must have been in the plan to permit man to sin then.

"You were set free by Christ’s precious blood, blood like that of a lamb without mark or blemish. He was predestined before the foundation of the world, but in this last period of time he has been revealed for your sake." (1Pet 1:19-20, REB)

"Remember this and abandon hope; consider it well, you rebels. Remember all that happened long ago, for I am God, and there is none other; I am God, and there is no one like me. From the beginning I reveal the end, from ancient times what is yet to be; I say, ‘My purpose stands, I shall accomplish all that I please.’" (Isa 46:8-10, REB

I see an excellent article by FastFredy and I'll add another. If you want to know the Christian faith, go back a few centuries when the church had true Holy Spirit power.

"The other element of mystery with regard to the origin of sin relates to
the permission of God. This section affirms, 4. That this sin was
permissively embraced in the eternal purpose of God.

About the facts of the case there can be no doubt. (1) God did certainly
foreknow that if such a being as Adam was put in such conditions as he
was, he would sin as he sinned. Yet, in spite of this certain knowledge,
God created that very being and put him in those very conditions; and
having determined to overrule the sin for good, he sovereignly decreed
not to intervene to prevent, and so he made it certainly future. (2) On the
other hand, God did neither cause nor approve Adam's sin. He forbade it,
and presented motives which should have deterred from it. He created
Adam holy and fully capable of obedience, and with sufficient knowledge
of his duty, and then left him alone to his trial. If it be asked why God,
who abhors sin, and who benevolently desires the excellence and
happiness of his creatures, should sovereignly determine to permit such a
fountain of pollution, degradation, and misery to be opened, we can only
say, with profound reverence, "Even so, Father; for so it seemed good in
thy sight." A. A. Hodge

https://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/sdg/aahodge/The_Westminster_Confession_of_Faith_A_C_-_A_A_Hodg.pdf

 

[Eddie42]

This is blasphemy as God created us to be holy without blame before Him as we were made in His image, Genesis 1:27; Ephesians 1:3-4.

Do we believe in the WCF or any other of the 5000 different religions statements of faith, or do we believe in that which God gave to His Prophets and Apostles to write. It is blasphemy to say God was/is pleased with sin.

Gen 6:5 And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
Gen 6:6 And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.
Gen 6:7 And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.
Gen 6:8 But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.


Look at verse 6, does it look like God was pleased with the fall of the human race!!! No, He was about to destroy the human race as they were evil. If it would not have been for Noah in whom God found favor in for his great faith all mankind would have been annihilated.

You wrote "It is blasphemy to say God was/is pleased with sin." You will not find that in the Westminster Confession of Faith nor will you find it in my post. The word "pleased" in that context means was willing. Typical, misrepresent and misquote so you can attack that! That is the same deceit the Watchtower uses about the Trinity.

 

[SolaScriptura]

If I were you, I'd tread lightly here, when calling a respected confession as the Westminster "blasphemous".

First, present the original Westminster Confession wording, not someone's idea of modern English:

"Our first parents, being seduced by the subtilty and temptation of Satan, sinned, in eating the forbidden fruit. This their sin, God was pleased, according to His wise and holy counsel, to permit, having purposed to order it to His own glory." Sect. 6, para. 1

Collins Dictionary:
Pleased "saying in a polite way that you are willing to do it"

Cambridge Advanced Learner's Dictionary:
Pleased "to be very willing to do something"

Therefore the sentence in question would read: "This their sin, God was willing.... to permit..." God does not have emotions and feelings as humans do. What God wills, he does!

The Confession reads it was our first parent who sinned, not God!! God, "according to His wise and holy counsel" permitted it. That does NOT make God the author of sin. Who are we, mere mortals, to judge God's actions, whether we can understand the problem or mystery of evil or not. For those who wish to delve into the deeper approaches to this, you can check out the following:

"...so far as finite minds can follow them, even the evils tend towards the good. Hence, the presumptive probability is in favor of a solution of the mystery, consistent with the infinite perfections of God. To sustain that presumption against the impugner, we have only to make the hypothesis, that for reasons we cannot see, God saw it was not possible to separate the existing evils from that system which, as a whole, satisfied His own properest ends. Now let the skeptic disprove that hypothesis! To do so, he must have omniscience. Do you say, I cannot demonstrate it? Very true; for neither am I omniscient. But I have proved that the reasonable presumption is in favor of the hypothesis; that it may be true, although we cannot explain how it comes to be true."
Robert L. Dabney, Systematic Theology

https://www.grace-ebooks.com/library/Robert%20Dabney/RLD_Systematic%20Theology.pdf

On such deep matters as this, I'll leave it up to the incomprehensible God:

"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, nor are your ways my ways, says the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts." (Isa 55:8-9, NRSV)

“Can you find out the deep things of God? Can you find out the limit of the Almighty? It is higher than heaven—what can you do? Deeper than Sheol—what can you know? Its measure is longer than the earth, and broader than the sea." (Job 11:7-9, NRSV)

Interesting how you only go to the dictionary for the word "pleased", and choose the defination that you want to use!

However, you ignored these importrant words, where the meaning is very clear, and cannot have a different meaning:

"having purposed to order it to His own glory."

Now check the dictionary and show how these words do not mean, that God is, not only the AUTHOR of our sins, but that He PURPOSED that we sin, to His own Glory!

This has led "Reformed" teaches, like Wayne Grudem, to say:

"In Spite of All of the Foregoing Statements, We Have to Come to the Point Where We Confess That We Do Not Understand How It Is That God Can Ordain That We Carry Out Evil Deeds and Yet Hold Us Accountable for Them and Not be Blamed Himself: We can affirm that all of these things are true, because Scripture teaches them. But Scripture does not tell us exactly how God brings this situation about or how it can be that God holds us accountable for what he ordains to come to pass. Here Scripture is silent, and we have to agree with Berkhof that ultimately “the problem of God’s relation to sin remains a mystery" (Systematic Theology, p.331. emphasis mine)

God ORDAINS that we carry out evil deeds, like rape, murder, abortion, etc, etc, and then after we do what He ORDAINED that we do, punishes us for doing His will???

This makes God into a MONSTER, and WICKED, and not knowing what He is doing!!!

 

[SolaScriptura]

This is blasphemy as God created us to be holy without blame before Him as we were made in His image, Genesis 1:27; Ephesians 1:3-4.

Do we believe in the WCF or any other of the 5000 different religions statements of faith, or do we believe in that which God gave to His Prophets and Apostles to write. It is blasphemy to say God was/is pleased with sin.

Gen 6:5 And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
Gen 6:6 And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.
Gen 6:7 And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.
Gen 6:8 But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.


Look at verse 6, does it look like God was pleased with the fall of the human race!!! No, He was about to destroy the human race as they were evil. If it would not have been for Noah in whom God found favor in for his great faith all mankind would have been annihilated.

well said!

 

[SolaScriptura]

I'm with you Eddie.

It is blasphemy and arrogance to think God did not know what His creation would do in time. It is blasphemy and arrogance to assign ignorance to God. It is blasphemy and arrogance to deny His plan is not the wisest plan. It is blasphemy and arrogance to think the God is not all powerful an thus able to have His creation go according to His plan.

Romans 9:20 On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers [arrogantly] back to God and dares to defy Him? Will the thing which is formed say to him who formed it, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 Does the potter not have the right over the clay, to make from the same lump [of clay] one object for honorable use [something beautiful or distinctive] and another for common use [something ordinary or menial]? 22 What if God, although willing to show His [terrible] wrath and to make His power known, has tolerated with great patience the objects of His wrath [which are] prepared for destruction? 23 And what if He has done so to make known the riches of His glory to the objects of His mercy, which He has prepared beforehand for glory,

Psalm 135:6 “Whatsoever the LORD pleased, that did he in heaven, and in earth, in the seas, and all deep places”. It is blasphemy and arrogance to state that all things do not go according to God's pleasure. Isaiah 14:24 The Lord of hosts has sworn [an oath], saying, “Just as I have intended, so it has certainly happened, and just as I have planned, so it will stand—

Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

1. There is a concurrence of God to all the acts of the creature (Acts 17:28); “in him we live, and move, and have our being.” We depend upon God in our acting as well as in our being: there is as much an efficacy of God in our motion (Colossians 1:17 And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together, Hebrews 1:3) as in our production; as none have life without his power in producing it, so none have any operation without his providence concurring with it. Hence man is compared to an axe (Isaiah 10:15), an instrument that hath no action, without the co-operation of a superior agent handling it: and the actions of the second causes are ascribed to God. Let his concurrence be removed, and the being and action of the creature cease. To make the creature independent of God in anything which speaks perfection, is to make the creature a sovereign being. Indeed, we cannot imagine the concurrence of God to the good actions of men since the fall, without granting a concurrence of God to evil actions; because there is no action so purely good but hath a mixture of evil in it, though it takes its denomination of good from the better part (Ecclesiastes 7:20), “There is no man that doth good, and sins not.”
2. Though the natural virtue of doing a sinful action be from God, and supported by him, yet this doth not blemish the holiness of God; while God concurs with them in the [physical] act, he instils no evil into men. But the estimation of the moral goodness or evil is not from the [physical] act itself, but from the disposition of the mind. [For instance:] killing, as an act is good; nor is it unlawful as an act; for if so, God would never have commanded his people Israel to wage any war. It is not the material part of the act, but the object, manner, and circumstance, that makes it good or evil. It is no blemish to God’s holiness to concur to the substance of an action, without having any hand in the immorality of it. God hath one end in his concurrence, and man another in his action: so that there is a righteous, and often a gracious end in God, when there is a base and unworthy end in man. God orders both the action wherein he concurs, and the sinfulness over which he presides, as a governor, to his own ends. In Joseph’s case, man was sinful, and God merciful; his brethren acted “envy,” and God designed “mercy” (Genesis 45:4, 5). Genesis 50:20 “Ye thought evil against me, but God meant it unto good.” Acts 2:23; Acts 4:27-28
Charnock, Stephen. The Existence and Attributes of God .

Psalm 115:3 Our God is in the heavens, He hath done whatsoever He hath pleased.
The most evil event ever and God states: Isaiah 53:10 “it pleased the Lord to bruise Him”.

You ramble on and on, and say nothing! You have failed to respond to the actual langauge of the WCF which clearly makes God the AUTHOR of our sins!

You quote Isaiah 45:7 from the KJV, where they failed to check the actual meanings of the Hebrew adjective, "רַע", which also has the meaning, "distress, calamity, destruction, injury, misery". It is very clear that the meaning is not always to be understood as "evil". See how the modern English Versions translate this, https://biblehub.com/parallel/isaiah/45-7.htm

 

[SolaScriptura]

It wasn't until the rebellion of Satan that God then saw the iniquity that was in Satan

this can be understood to mean, that God is not all-knowing. Surely God knew all of this in eternity past, as He also did about the fall of Adam and Eve, etc.

 

[SolaScriptura]

Typical, misrepresent and misquote so you can attack that!

so why does you correctly quote the WCF as in the OP? You completely ignore these words, "planned to order their sin to his own glory” God PLANNED to ORDER the fall of Adam and Eve for HIS GLORY. If this is not the HIGHEST BLASPHEMY, then what is???

This is what you guys who defend this UNBIBLICAL document, must deal with!

 

[SolaScriptura]

Is Yahweh Omniscient and Omnipotent or is he not? Wasn't the Son predestined to come save sinners before creation itself? It must have been in the plan to permit man to sin then.

"You were set free by Christ’s precious blood, blood like that of a lamb without mark or blemish. He was predestined before the foundation of the world, but in this last period of time he has been revealed for your sake." (1Pet 1:19-20, REB)

"Remember this and abandon hope; consider it well, you rebels. Remember all that happened long ago, for I am God, and there is none other; I am God, and there is no one like me. From the beginning I reveal the end, from ancient times what is yet to be; I say, ‘My purpose stands, I shall accomplish all that I please.’" (Isa 46:8-10, REB

I see an excellent article by FastFredy and I'll add another. If you want to know the Christian faith, go back a few centuries when the church had true Holy Spirit power.

"The other element of mystery with regard to the origin of sin relates to
the permission of God. This section affirms, 4. That this sin was
permissively embraced in the eternal purpose of God.

About the facts of the case there can be no doubt. (1) God did certainly
foreknow that if such a being as Adam was put in such conditions as he
was, he would sin as he sinned. Yet, in spite of this certain knowledge,
God created that very being and put him in those very conditions; and
having determined to overrule the sin for good, he sovereignly decreed
not to intervene to prevent, and so he made it certainly future. (2) On the
other hand, God did neither cause nor approve Adam's sin. He forbade it,
and presented motives which should have deterred from it. He created
Adam holy and fully capable of obedience, and with sufficient knowledge
of his duty, and then left him alone to his trial. If it be asked why God,
who abhors sin, and who benevolently desires the excellence and
happiness of his creatures, should sovereignly determine to permit such a
fountain of pollution, degradation, and misery to be opened, we can only
say, with profound reverence, "Even so, Father; for so it seemed good in
thy sight." A. A. Hodge

https://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/sdg/aahodge/The_Westminster_Confession_of_Faith_A_C_-_A_A_Hodg.pdf

WHERE in the 66 Books of the Holy Bible that it says this about the fall of Adam and Eve? That God, "planned to order their sin to his own glory”

 

[Quantrill]

WHERE in the 66 Books of the Holy Bible that it says this about the fall of Adam and Eve? That God, "planned to order their sin to his own glory”

See Fastfredy0 post #(6).

Quantrill

 

[SolaScriptura]

See Fastfredy0 post #(6).

Quantrill

Like what? No where in the entire Bible is this devilish nonsense taught

 

[Eddie42]

Interesting how you only go to the dictionary for the word "pleased", and choose the defination that you want to use!

However, you ignored these importrant words, where the meaning is very clear, and cannot have a different meaning:

"having purposed to order it to His own glory."

Now check the dictionary and show how these words do not mean, that God is, not only the AUTHOR of our sins, but that He PURPOSED that we sin, to His own Glory!

This has led "Reformed" teaches, like Wayne Grudem, to say:

"In Spite of All of the Foregoing Statements, We Have to Come to the Point Where We Confess That We Do Not Understand How It Is That God Can Ordain That We Carry Out Evil Deeds and Yet Hold Us Accountable for Them and Not be Blamed Himself: We can affirm that all of these things are true, because Scripture teaches them. But Scripture does not tell us exactly how God brings this situation about or how it can be that God holds us accountable for what he ordains to come to pass. Here Scripture is silent, and we have to agree with Berkhof that ultimately “the problem of God’s relation to sin remains a mystery" (Systematic Theology, p.331. emphasis mine)

God ORDAINS that we carry out evil deeds, like rape, murder, abortion, etc, etc, and then after we do what He ORDAINED that we do, punishes us for doing His will???

This makes God into a MONSTER, and WICKED, and not knowing what He is doing!!!

In accord with "SolaScriptura", the KJV language compared to the modern English language clearly gives us the meaning of "pleased", if we are willing to accept God's word. The Westminster Confession English was written in the same generation as the KJV English. According to God's own word, in the context of the Westminster, "pleased = willing" as I insert in brackets in the original text, comparing KJV English to English of today:

This is the original wording of the Westminster Confession:
"Our first parents, being seduced by the subtilty and temptation of Satan, sinned, in eating the forbidden fruit. This their sin, God was pleased[willing], according to His wise and holy counsel, to permit, having purposed to order it to His own glory."

This is clearly the use of the word in the Bible itself!

"But our God is in the heavens: he hath done whatsoever he hath pleased." (Ps 115:3, KJV)
"Our God is high in heaven; he does whatever he wills." (Ps 115:3, REB)

"Whatsoever the LORD pleased, that did he in heaven, and in earth, in the seas, and all deep places." (Ps 135:6, KJV)
"Whatever the Lord wills, that he does, in heaven and on earth, in the sea and all the great deep." (Ps 135:6, REB)

The following verse is the prophesy about the death on the cross of Jesus:

"Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand." (Isa 53:10, KJV)
"Yet it was the will of the LORD to crush him with pain. When you make his life an offering for sin, he shall see his offspring, and shall prolong his days; through him the will of the LORD shall prosper." (Isa 53:10, NRSV)

Can the sovereignty of God be in clearer than as it is stated over the greatest sin of world history?

"For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done." (Acts 4:28, KJV)
"to do whatever your hand and your plan had predestined to take place." (Acts 4:28, NRSV)
"to do whatsoever thy hand and thy council foreordained to come to pass." (Acts 4:28, ASV)

"This is the plan that is planned concerning the whole earth; and this is the hand that is stretched out over all the nations. For the LORD of hosts has planned, and who will annul it? His hand is stretched out, and who will turn it back?" (Isa 14:26-27, NRSV)

When dealing with the lack of reading comprehension and common sense as seen in this thread, the words of Robert L. Dabney come so clear:

"Polemic Theology has been defined as direct refutation of error. The advantage of this has been supposed to be, that the way for easiest and most thorough refutation is to systematize the error, with reference to its first principle, or prwton yeudo. But the attempt to form a science of polemics, different from Didactic Theology fails; because error never has true method. Confusion is its characteristic."

https://www.grace-ebooks.com/library/Robert%20Dabney/RLD_Systematic%20Theology.pdf

Therefore, let God's truth stand forth and the lies of Satan will be exposed to God's elect!

 

[Fastfredy0]

Was it God's plan to have man fall instead of being holy and blameless before Him?

Yes. To think otherwise is to conjecture that either:

• God lacks the power to stop events occurring according to His wishes which contradicts His be all powerful or
• God lacks the knowledge to all things which contradicts His be all knowing or
• God lacks the wisdom to have the best plan possible which contradicts His being all wise or
• God is the only person of value and all things should suit His purpose and glory and man is merely good to the degree that God empowers man via participation in God's plan. As God made all things for himself, so he orders the ends of all things made by him for his own glory. For being the most excellent and intelligent agent, he doth reduce all the motions of his creatures to that end for which he made them. Stephen Charnock

Proverbs 16:33
Westminster Confession of Faith, V/i–iv, vii (granted, this is man's view point of what God says)
Aside: Theology should be God centered and not man centered. It about Him and not you or I.

After all, were we not all made in His image?

A statement often abused to try to make a point. The definition of "image of God" is obtuse. People use it to equate man characteristics to God's character to form conclusions lacking foundation.

It wasn't until the rebellion of Satan that God then saw the iniquity that was in Satan

This statement contradicts God's eternally and omniscience. Since God is eternal He is outside of and not restricted to time. Your statement "it wasn't until" implies that God lacked knowledge till a certain point in time. This contradicts God's omniscience. Thus, your conclusions are built upon a false premise.

It was Satan who caused himself to be cut down

... and where did Satan get the ability to cause himself to do ANYTHING (first cause). Is Satan eternal and thus could have the ability to self determine. All of Satan's being is created and thus controlled by the Creator. Satan being the first cause of anything is dualism.

None of this was God's plan in the beginning

Ah, the God learns as He goes theory. One should not accuse God of ignorance. (or not be wise enough to prevent evil, or not being powerful enough to prevent evil .... )
Luke 14:28 Which of you, wishing to build a tower, does not first sit down and count the cost to see if he has the resources to complete it? Your comments indicate God doesn't 'first sit down and count the cost' or is not all knowing IMO.