The Westminster Confession of Faith Blasphemy

[SolaScriptura]

Of course it was a 'real response' to the OP.

So, verses were given in post #(6) that answer your question in post #(16).

Apparently you don't agree with them, but you should address them.

Quantrill

I will ask for the last time. Show ONE of the verses in #6 that says

"It pleased God to allow them to sin, because in his wisdom and holiness he planned to order their sin to his own glory”

 

[for_his_glory]

Wow, someone that does not believe in the omniscience of God.

1. He receives no his knowledge from anything without himself: Isaiah 40:13 "Who hath been his counsellor?
2. If you are correct, then I am God's counsellor .... how kewl is that!
3. if God's knowledge of the creatures depended us, he would derive an excellency from us ... sweet, we give things to God
4. Therefore, God is not immutable after all as His knowledge changes as we give knowledge to God ... wow, we teach God ... hmmm, anything that can change cannot be eternal for as he once existed without certain knowledge, he now exists with that knowledge; thus as he is now is was not and therefore His eternality is but a wisp of the wind that is here for but a short time
5. I got to wonder how God predicts the future when he is dependent upon us for information; said information not being forthcoming till certain events make matters clear to Him.
6. I suppose as God accumulates knowing He can change His mind (repent). Is if awfully difficult to change your mind and keep your word at the same time. If He keeps His word even though He changed his mind because He acquired new information He might be forced to pursue an inferior plan given the newly acquired knowledge. Hmmm

• Job 37:16 who is perfect in knowledge ...
• Job 21:22 “Can anyone teach God knowledge, Seeing that He judges those on high? for_his_glory thinks so
• Psalm 139:16 Your eyes saw my unformed substance, and in Your book all the days [of my life] were written before ever they took shape, when as yet there was none of them. ... must be a short book if God is not all knowing and depends on us for knowledge
• Psalm 147:5 Great is our [majestic and mighty] Lord and abundant in strength; His understanding is inexhaustible [infinite, boundless].
• John 16:30 Now we know that You know all things, and have no need for anyone to question You; because of this we believe [without any doubt] that you came from God.”
• John 21:17b “Lord, you know everything;

To quote you and what you said to Eddie42 ... .


Aside: This does explain a lot regarding your doctrine though ... interesting

Instead of being sarcastic maybe you should see our indifference in the subject of free-will as we both know where we stand on that.

To take this any further would take us off topic.

 

[OzSpen]

I don't know who Arminius was.
I don't know who any of these people are that some post.

I know how God is portrayed in the O.T. and N.T.
I know that the revelation of God increased as time went by.
I know that the Apostles taught those that came right after them and these are the Early Church Fathers.

Unless a writer agrees with the above,,,we don't really need to know him.

We have enough on our plate.

Who is the person from whom Arminianism is named? Have you thought about that person and the tenets of his theology?

Do you know any of the teachings of Arminianism? I suggest you read the site of Arminian Perspectives to gain fuller understanding of the biblical theology of Arminianism.

Oz

 

[Quantrill]

I will ask for the last time. Show ONE of the verses in #6 that says

"It pleased God to allow them to sin, because in his wisdom and holiness he planned to order their sin to his own glory”

The verses in post #(6) are (Is. 14:24) (Ps. 135:6) (Gen. 45:4-5) (Gen. 50:20) (Acts 2:23)

Add to that (Acts 15:18). "Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world."

The fall of Adam and Eve, of the human race had to be in the plan of God. To suggest otherwise is to have God having to react to something that was never part of His plan.

If God didn't plan on the fall of Adam and Eve, why did He put the Tree of knowledge of good and evil in the garden? Why did He let satan have access to the garden? Or did satan sneak in without God knowing about it?

When God asked Adam, "Where art thou?", did He really not know where Adam was? Is He stumbling around in the garden looking under the trees and foilage unable to find him?

Mankind in the Garden was not the goal of God for man. The fall of man was part of the plan of God to obtain that goal. The goal of God was the very place He has brought fallen and redeemed man to. True sons and daughters of God born of Him. (John 12:24) "Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone; but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit."

And, all that God does is for His glory. That is as it should be. It can be no other way. Thus the fall of Adam and Eve as part of the plan of God, was indeed for His glory. The fall of Adam and Eve, as part of that plan, which included their sin, was indeed for the glory of God.

In my opinion, anything less than this, and God is not God. He would be just a god having to react to things which he never intended. He would be just another spirit being in a contest with satan and hoping he can salvage part of his plan.

Quantrill

 

[SolaScriptura]

The verses in post #(6) are (Is. 14:24) (Ps. 135:6) (Gen. 45:4-5) (Gen. 50:20) (Acts 2:23)

Add to that (Acts 15:18). "Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world."

The fall of Adam and Eve, of the human race had to be in the plan of God. To suggest otherwise is to have God having to react to something that was never part of His plan.

If God didn't plan on the fall of Adam and Eve, why did He put the Tree of knowledge of good and evil in the garden? Why did He let satan have access to the garden? Or did satan sneak in without God knowing about it?

When God asked Adam, "Where art thou?", did He really not know where Adam was? Is He stumbling around in the garden looking under the trees and foilage unable to find him?

Mankind in the Garden was not the goal of God for man. The fall of man was part of the plan of God to obtain that goal. The goal of God was the very place He has brought fallen and redeemed man to. True sons and daughters of God born of Him. (John 12:24) "Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone; but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit."

And, all that God does is for His glory. That is as it should be. It can be no other way. Thus the fall of Adam and Eve as part of the plan of God, was indeed for His glory. The fall of Adam and Eve, as part of that plan, which included their sin, was indeed for the glory of God.

In my opinion, anything less than this, and God is not God. He would be just a god having to react to things which he never intended. He would be just another spirit being in a contest with satan and hoping he can salvage part of his plan.

Quantrill

I don't think that you really understand the difference between "planning", and "allowing", because of the "free-will" that God created all humans with.

If, as you argue, that God "planned" that Adam and Eve should rebel against Him, and thereby sin, which caused the whole human race to be cursed, then why would God be angry with this for only carrying our His plans? Why would Genesis 6:

"And Jehovah saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. And Jehovah repented that He had made man on the earth, and He was angry to His heart. And Jehovah said, I will destroy man whom I have created, from the face of the earth, both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air. For I repent that I have made them. But Noah found grace in the eyes of Jehovah." (verses 5-8)

If God had "planned" the fall of humans by their sinning against Him, then surely this sould not really be a problem? Why would God be so angry, that He has to wipe out the entire human race, apart from 8, if all they were doing, was to participate in fulfilling His "plans"? Surley this makes God double-minded and unstable! What you suggest, that God "planned" the sinning of humans against Himself, then this makes God the author of sin, which is anathema!

It is clear, as we read of in the Book of Job, and the devils requests to test Job, to the Lord, that the Lord is in full control of everything in His Created world, and that He, in His Infinite Wisdom, allows things, like sin, to continue, and has not told us why. God allowed the devil to do things to Job that He did not like. In 1 Kings 22, we read,

"And he said, Hear therefore the Word of Jehovah: I saw Jehovah sitting on His throne, and all the host of heaven standing by Him on His right hand and on His left. And Jehovah said, Who shall entice Ahab that he may go up and fall at Ramoth in Gilead? And one said this way, and another said that way. And there came forth a spirit and stood before Jehovah and said, I will entice him. And Jehovah said to him, With what? And he said, I will go forth and will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And He said, You shall entice him and succeed also. Go forth and do so. And now, behold, Jehovah has put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these your prophets, and Jehovah has spoken evil concerning you" (19-23)

It is clear from this passage, that God "allowed" a false spirit to cause the downfall of the wicked king, Ahab. God could not have "planned" this, or else God would be guilty of endorsing "lying", which He is totally against. Because God "allowed" this to take place, it is seen as He "putting a lying spirit in the mouth of all these your prophets". James 1:13-15 puts it well, "Let no one being tempted say, I am tempted from God. For God is not tempted by evils, and He tempts no one. But each one is tempted by his lusts, being drawn away and seduced by them. Then when lust has conceived, it brings forth sin. And sin, when it is fully formed, brings forth death". God's Character is HOLY, that is BLAMELESS in every possible way. He cannot be tainted by any sin, nor does He "cause" the sins that we humans carry out, due to our own fleshly desires, lest we blame God for our sinning!

To "allow" is 100% different than to "plan".

 

[GodsGrace]

Of course it was a 'real response' to the OP.

So, verses were given in post #(6) that answer your question in post #(16).

Apparently you don't agree with them, but you should address them.

Quantrill

None of the verses in the said post prove anything.

This is because free will is biblical.
Predestination of everything is not biblical.
Total depravity is not biblical.

And thus, the O.P. is correct in asserting that the WCF is heretical because it's based on heretical ideas found in calvinism. Ideas not found in mainline Christianity, and so they are heretical,,,

Fastfredy won't speak to me for some unknown reason, but I'd be happy to go over any verse or ideology with you.

 

[GodsGrace]

Who is the person from whom Arminianism is named? Have you thought about that person and the tenets of his theology?

Do you know any of the teachings of Arminianism? I suggest you read the site of Arminian Perspectives to gain fuller understanding of the biblical theology of Arminianism.

Oz

I don't believe arminianism is the opposite of calvinism. This is a man-made distinction calvinists continue to espouse.

Thus, no need to know who Arminius was.

If I need refer to man,,,then I refer to the ECFs
Who knew the teachings from the Apostles themselves.

 

[GodsGrace]

I don't think that you really understand the difference between "planning", and "allowing", because of the "free-will" that God created all humans with.

If, as you argue, that God "planned" that Adam and Eve should rebel against Him, and thereby sin, which caused the whole human race to be cursed, then why would God be angry with this for only carrying our His plans? Why would Genesis 6:

"And Jehovah saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. And Jehovah repented that He had made man on the earth, and He was angry to His heart. And Jehovah said, I will destroy man whom I have created, from the face of the earth, both man, and beast, and the creepng thing, and the fowls of the air. For I repent that I have made them. But Noah found grace in the eyes of Jehovah." (verses 5-8)

If God had "planned" the fall of humans by their sinning against Him, then surely this sould not really be a problem? Why would God be so angry, that He has to wipe out the entire human race, apart from 8, if all they were doing, was to participate in fulfilling His "plans"? Surley this makes God double-minded and unstable! What you suggest, that God "planned" the sinning of humans against Himself, then this makes God the author of sin, which is anathema!

It is clear, as we read of in the Book of Job, and the devils requests to test Job, to the Lord, that the Lord is in full control of everything in His Created world, and that He, in His Infinite Wisdom, allows things, like sin, to continue, and has not told us why. God allowed the devil to do things to Job that He did not like. In 1 Kings 22, we read,

"And he said, Hear therefore the Word of Jehovah: I saw Jehovah sitting on His throne, and all the host of heaven standing by Him on His right hand and on His left. And Jehovah said, Who shall entice Ahab that he may go up and fall at Ramoth in Gilead? And one said this way, and another said that way. And there came forth a spirit and stood before Jehovah and said, I will entice him. And Jehovah said to him, With what? And he said, I will go forth and will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And He said, You shall entice him and succeed also. Go forth and do so. And now, behold, Jehovah has put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these your prophets, and Jehovah has spoken evil concerning you" (19-23)

It is clear from this passage, that God "allowed" a false spirit to cause the downfall of the wicked king, Ahab. God could not have "planned" this, or else God would be guilty of endorsing "lying", which He is totally against. Because God "allowed" this to take place, it is seen as He "putting a lying spirit in the mouth of all these your prophets". James 1:13-15 puts it well, "Let no one being tempted say, I am tempted from God. For God is not tempted by evils, and He tempts no one. But each one is tempted by his lusts, being drawn away and seduced by them. Then when lust has conceived, it brings forth sin. And sin, when it is fully formed, brings forth death". God's Character is HOLY, that is BLAMELESS in every possible way. He cannot be tainted by any sin, nor does He "cause" the sins that we humans carry out, due to our own fleshly desires, lest we blame God for our sinning!

To "allow" is 100% different than to "plan".

Absolutely correct.
Planning infers that there is evil in God.
Allowing means He gave His creatures free will.
Great post.

 

[jasonc]

It's blasphemy to have the 5 Solas.i guess I better go became a Catholic. .

God forbid sola scriptural.sola Gloria deo,sola Christus,sola fide so satanic

 

[Quantrill]

I don't think that you really understand the difference between "planning", and "allowing", because of the "free-will" that God created all humans with.

If, as you argue, that God "planned" that Adam and Eve should rebel against Him, and thereby sin, which caused the whole human race to be cursed, then why would God be angry with this for only carrying our His plans? Why would Genesis 6:

"And Jehovah saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. And Jehovah repented that He had made man on the earth, and He was angry to His heart. And Jehovah said, I will destroy man whom I have created, from the face of the earth, both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air. For I repent that I have made them. But Noah found grace in the eyes of Jehovah." (verses 5-8)

If God had "planned" the fall of humans by their sinning against Him, then surely this sould not really be a problem? Why would God be so angry, that He has to wipe out the entire human race, apart from 8, if all they were doing, was to participate in fulfilling His "plans"? Surley this makes God double-minded and unstable! What you suggest, that God "planned" the sinning of humans against Himself, then this makes God the author of sin, which is anathema!

It is clear, as we read of in the Book of Job, and the devils requests to test Job, to the Lord, that the Lord is in full control of everything in His Created world, and that He, in His Infinite Wisdom, allows things, like sin, to continue, and has not told us why. God allowed the devil to do things to Job that He did not like. In 1 Kings 22, we read,

"And he said, Hear therefore the Word of Jehovah: I saw Jehovah sitting on His throne, and all the host of heaven standing by Him on His right hand and on His left. And Jehovah said, Who shall entice Ahab that he may go up and fall at Ramoth in Gilead? And one said this way, and another said that way. And there came forth a spirit and stood before Jehovah and said, I will entice him. And Jehovah said to him, With what? And he said, I will go forth and will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And He said, You shall entice him and succeed also. Go forth and do so. And now, behold, Jehovah has put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these your prophets, and Jehovah has spoken evil concerning you" (19-23)

It is clear from this passage, that God "allowed" a false spirit to cause the downfall of the wicked king, Ahab. God could not have "planned" this, or else God would be guilty of endorsing "lying", which He is totally against. Because God "allowed" this to take place, it is seen as He "putting a lying spirit in the mouth of all these your prophets". James 1:13-15 puts it well, "Let no one being tempted say, I am tempted from God. For God is not tempted by evils, and He tempts no one. But each one is tempted by his lusts, being drawn away and seduced by them. Then when lust has conceived, it brings forth sin. And sin, when it is fully formed, brings forth death". God's Character is HOLY, that is BLAMELESS in every possible way. He cannot be tainted by any sin, nor does He "cause" the sins that we humans carry out, due to our own fleshly desires, lest we blame God for our sinning!

To "allow" is 100% different than to "plan".

Sorry, but I think I understand what I am saying. And I understand what you're saying. I just disagree with you. Your accusations that I don't understand always follow a post of mine where you ignore what I said. In other words, you don't want to answer my questions. Which then follows a post of yours where you have questions for me. Which I do attempt to answer.

First of all, man doesn't have free-will. Only God does.

Concerning your use of 'allow', Christians like the word 'allow' instead of just saying what the Scripture is saying. They cannot reconcile that God planned the fall of mankind with their preconceived picture of God. The word 'allow' soothes their conscience.

But that is just a sugar pill created by them. And it creates more problems then it is supposed to solve. What is the difference if God allows it or if He plans it. Is He allowing something to happen that is against His will? If He is allowing it, then He could stop it? Correct? By not stopping it when He could stop it, in your eyes, should make Him equally guilty of it. Take Jesus death for example. (Acts 2:23) Delivered by God. It was God's will. But evil wicked hands killed Him.

Also, to say 'God allows' instead of 'God does' places something outside of God's control. Something came into the picture that God didn't want, that was out of His will and control.

As far as Noah and the flood, yes God was grieved over the extent of the wickedness of man. It doesn't make Him doubleminded. It does show He feels. It doesn't change His plans one bit. Just like with His Son on the Cross. Was the Father grieved over that? Of course He was. But it didn't change His plans.

God didn't 'allow' satan to get to Job. It is God Who pointed satan to Job. It was all God's plan, not satan's. (Job 1:8) satan had to check in with God just like all other angels did. (Job 1:6)

Concerning (1 Kings 22:20-23) in verse (23) the prophet of God, Micaiah, clearly says "the LORD hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets" God didn't just 'allow' the lying prophet. He sent the lying prophet. No different than (2 Thess. 2:11) where God sends strong delusion for man to believe the lie.

Concerning (James 1:13) I never said God tempts man to do evil. That will come from within man and provoked by satan. But God provided the personification of evil, in satan. And God provided man who though he was perfect, and sinless, still had the ability to sin. All of which was His plan. It was not a reaction from Him. God never 'reacts'. He acts.

In my post #(44) there are about 6 questions you didn't answer.

Quantrill

 

[Quantrill]

None of the verses in the said post prove anything.

This is because free will is biblical.
Predestination of everything is not biblical.
Total depravity is not biblical.

And thus, the O.P. is correct in asserting that the WCF is heretical because it's based on heretical ideas found in calvinism. Ideas not found in mainline Christianity, and so they are heretical,,,

Fastfredy won't speak to me for some unknown reason, but I'd be happy to go over any verse or ideology with you.

Yes, I can see we disagree in many things.

Perhaps if you respond to my post #(44) where I laid out pretty much what I believed concerning this subject.

I'm sure the doctrines you mentioned will come up.

Quantrill

 

[SolaScriptura]

sola fide

cannot be Biblical, as the Jesus Himself says that BOTH "REPENTANCE and FAITH" are required for a sinner to be saved, as in Mark 1:15!

 

[SolaScriptura]

First of all, man doesn't have free-will. Only God does

so WHY does God say to ALL, "CHOOSE this day whom you will serve" Joshua 24:15, if people have no FREE WILL?

WHY does Jesus Christ tell the Jews who wanted to murder Him

"You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is they that bear witness about me, yet you REFUSE to come to me that you may have life" (John 5:39-40)

How is a person expected to REFUSE or ACCEPT, if they don't have a FREE WILL?

HOW can Paul tells the Jews

"And Paul and Barnabas spoke out boldly, saying, “It was necessary that the word of God be spoken first to you. Since you REJECT it aside and CONSIDER YOURSELVES UNWORTHY of eternal life, behold, we are turning to the Gentiles" (Acts 13:46)

In Revelation 22:17, it says

"The Spirit and the Bride say, “COME.” And let the one who hears say, “COME.” And let the one who is thirsty COME; let the one who DESIRES take the water of life without price"

ALL of which requires FREE WILL!

John 3:18, 36:

"Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God...Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him"

Again, FREE WILL is required to BELIEVE or DISBELIEVE!

 

[for_his_glory]

I'm with you Eddie.

It is blasphemy and arrogance to think God did not know what His creation would do in time. It is blasphemy and arrogance to assign ignorance to God. It is blasphemy and arrogance to deny His plan is not the wisest plan. It is blasphemy and arrogance to think the God is not all powerful an thus able to have His creation go according to His plan.

Romans 9:20 On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers [arrogantly] back to God and dares to defy Him? Will the thing which is formed say to him who formed it, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 Does the potter not have the right over the clay, to make from the same lump [of clay] one object for honorable use [something beautiful or distinctive] and another for common use [something ordinary or menial]? 22 What if God, although willing to show His [terrible] wrath and to make His power known, has tolerated with great patience the objects of His wrath [which are] prepared for destruction? 23 And what if He has done so to make known the riches of His glory to the objects of His mercy, which He has prepared beforehand for glory,

Psalm 135:6 “Whatsoever the LORD pleased, that did he in heaven, and in earth, in the seas, and all deep places”. It is blasphemy and arrogance to state that all things do not go according to God's pleasure. Isaiah 14:24 The Lord of hosts has sworn [an oath], saying, “Just as I have intended, so it has certainly happened, and just as I have planned, so it will stand—

Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

1. There is a concurrence of God to all the acts of the creature (Acts 17:28); “in him we live, and move, and have our being.” We depend upon God in our acting as well as in our being: there is as much an efficacy of God in our motion (Colossians 1:17 And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together, Hebrews 1:3) as in our production; as none have life without his power in producing it, so none have any operation without his providence concurring with it. Hence man is compared to an axe (Isaiah 10:15), an instrument that hath no action, without the co-operation of a superior agent handling it: and the actions of the second causes are ascribed to God. Let his concurrence be removed, and the being and action of the creature cease. To make the creature independent of God in anything which speaks perfection, is to make the creature a sovereign being. Indeed, we cannot imagine the concurrence of God to the good actions of men since the fall, without granting a concurrence of God to evil actions; because there is no action so purely good but hath a mixture of evil in it, though it takes its denomination of good from the better part (Ecclesiastes 7:20), “There is no man that doth good, and sins not.”
2. Though the natural virtue of doing a sinful action be from God, and supported by him, yet this doth not blemish the holiness of God; while God concurs with them in the [physical] act, he instils no evil into men. But the estimation of the moral goodness or evil is not from the [physical] act itself, but from the disposition of the mind. [For instance:] killing, as an act is good; nor is it unlawful as an act; for if so, God would never have commanded his people Israel to wage any war. It is not the material part of the act, but the object, manner, and circumstance, that makes it good or evil. It is no blemish to God’s holiness to concur to the substance of an action, without having any hand in the immorality of it. God hath one end in his concurrence, and man another in his action: so that there is a righteous, and often a gracious end in God, when there is a base and unworthy end in man. God orders both the action wherein he concurs, and the sinfulness over which he presides, as a governor, to his own ends. In Joseph’s case, man was sinful, and God merciful; his brethren acted “envy,” and God designed “mercy” (Genesis 45:4, 5). Genesis 50:20 “Ye thought evil against me, but God meant it unto good.” Acts 2:23; Acts 4:27-28
Charnock, Stephen. The Existence and Attributes of God .

Psalm 115:3 Our God is in the heavens, He hath done whatsoever He hath pleased.
The most evil event ever and God states: Isaiah 53:10 “it pleased the Lord to bruise Him”.

None of those verses you gave have anything to do with what you say that it pleased God to allow them to sin. It pleased God that He could take what was sinful of man to do and make it glory to Him by counteracting their sin. We can see this more with Joseph who turned what was evil towards him into forgiveness and showing the God glory of the God in helping his brothers.


An Oracle Concerning Assyria
Isa 14:24 The LORD of hosts hath sworn, saying, Surely as I have thought, so shall it come to pass; and as I have purposed, so shall it stand:
Isa 14:25 That I will break the Assyrian in my land, and upon my mountains tread him under foot: then shall his yoke depart from off them, and his burden depart from off their shoulders.

Your Name, O Lord, Endures Forever
Psa 135:1 Praise ye the LORD. Praise ye the name of the LORD; praise him, O ye servants of the LORD.
Psa 135:2 Ye that stand in the house of the LORD, in the courts of the house of our God,
Psa 135:3 Praise the LORD; for the LORD is good: sing praises unto his name; for it is pleasant.
Psa 135:4 For the LORD hath chosen Jacob unto himself, and Israel for his peculiar treasure.
Psa 135:5 For I know that the LORD is great, and that our Lord is above all gods.
Psa 135:6 Whatsoever the LORD pleased, that did he in heaven, and in earth, in the seas, and all deep places.

Joseph Provides for His Brothers and Family
Gen 45:4 And Joseph said unto his brethren, Come near to me, I pray you. And they came near. And he said, I am Joseph your brother, whom ye sold into Egypt.
Gen 45:5 Now therefore be not grieved, nor angry with yourselves, that ye sold me hither: for God did send me before you to preserve life.

God's Good Purposes
Gen 50:18 And his brethren also went and fell down before his face; and they said, Behold, we be thy servants.
Gen 50:19 And Joseph said unto them, Fear not: for am I in the place of God?
Gen 50:20 But as for you, ye thought evil against me; but God meant it unto good, to bring to pass, as it is this day, to save much people alive.
Gen 50:21 Now therefore fear ye not: I will nourish you, and your little ones. And he comforted them, and spake kindly unto them.

Peter's Sermon at Pentecost
Act 2:22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:
Act 2:23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:
Act 2:24 Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.

 

[for_his_glory]

Like what? You asked for Scripture. Fastfredy0 gave you Scripture.

Now instead of addressing those Scriptures, you ask...like what?

Like the Scriptures given in post #(6). Address them.

'devilish nonsense' is a two way street.

Quantrill

But yet none of those scriptures that Fastfredy0 gave in post #6 mentioned that it pleased God to allow them to sin. Do you see where they say this?

 

[for_his_glory]

Of course it was a 'real response' to the OP.

So, verses were given in post #(6) that answer your question in post #(16).

Apparently you don't agree with them, but you should address them.

Quantrill

But they did not answer his question so why are you arguing about something that is between SolaScriptura and Fastfredy0 ?

 

[for_his_glory]

Sorry, but I think I understand what I am saying. And I understand what you're saying. I just disagree with you. Your accusations that I don't understand always follow a post of mine where you ignore what I said. In other words, you don't want to answer my questions. Which then follows a post of yours where you have questions for me. Which I do attempt to answer.

First of all, man doesn't have free-will. Only God does.

Concerning your use of 'allow', Christians like the word 'allow' instead of just saying what the Scripture is saying. They cannot reconcile that God planned the fall of mankind with their preconceived picture of God. The word 'allow' soothes their conscience.

But that is just a sugar pill created by them. And it creates more problems then it is supposed to solve. What is the difference if God allows it or if He plans it. Is He allowing something to happen that is against His will? If He is allowing it, then He could stop it? Correct? By not stopping it when He could stop it, in your eyes, should make Him equally guilty of it. Take Jesus death for example. (Acts 2:23) Delivered by God. It was God's will. But evil wicked hands killed Him.

Also, to say 'God allows' instead of 'God does' places something outside of God's control. Something came into the picture that God didn't want, that was out of His will and control.

As far as Noah and the flood, yes God was grieved over the extent of the wickedness of man. It doesn't make Him doubleminded. It does show He feels. It doesn't change His plans one bit. Just like with His Son on the Cross. Was the Father grieved over that? Of course He was. But it didn't change His plans.

God didn't 'allow' satan to get to Job. It is God Who pointed satan to Job. It was all God's plan, not satan's. (Job 1:8) satan had to check in with God just like all other angels did. (Job 1:6)

Concerning (1 Kings 22:20-23) in verse (23) the prophet of God, Micaiah, clearly says "the LORD hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets" God didn't just 'allow' the lying prophet. He sent the lying prophet. No different than (2 Thess. 2:11) where God sends strong delusion for man to believe the lie.

Concerning (James 1:13) I never said God tempts man to do evil. That will come from within man and provoked by satan. But God provided the personification of evil, in satan. And God provided man who though he was perfect, and sinless, still had the ability to sin. All of which was His plan. It was not a reaction from Him. God never 'reacts'. He acts.

In my post #(44) there are about 6 questions you didn't answer.

Quantrill

There is the whole problem as some believe we have free-will and others do not so arguments are made with both sides. If we do not have free-will then we would be nothing more than puppets that God would control as one being evil and the other one Good and pleasing to Him. Just think about it for awhile.

 

[Quantrill]

so WHY does God say to ALL, "CHOOSE this day whom you will serve" Joshua 24:15, if people have no FREE WILL?

WHY does Jesus Christ tell the Jews who wanted to murder Him

"You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is they that bear witness about me, yet you REFUSE to come to me that you may have life" (John 5:39-40)

How is a person expected to REFUSE or ACCEPT, if they don't have a FREE WILL?

HOW can Paul tells the Jews

"And Paul and Barnabas spoke out boldly, saying, “It was necessary that the word of God be spoken first to you. Since you REJECT it aside and CONSIDER YOURSELVES UNWORTHY of eternal life, behold, we are turning to the Gentiles" (Acts 13:46)

In Revelation 22:17, it says

"The Spirit and the Bride say, “COME.” And let the one who hears say, “COME.” And let the one who is thirsty COME; let the one who DESIRES take the water of life without price"

ALL of which requires FREE WILL!

John 3:18, 36:

"Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God...Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him"

Again, FREE WILL is required to BELIEVE or DISBELIEVE!

Still waiting for you to respond to post #(50) and the questions you ignored in post #(44).

Man has a will. Not free will. Only God has free will.

Quantrill

 

[SolaScriptura]

Still waiting for you to respond to post #(50) and the questions you ignored in post #(44).

Man has a will. Not free will. Only God has free will.

Quantrill

So when God says to the sinner, you must believe in order to be saved; and if you don't believe, you will be damned for eternity, the sinner cannot decide for themselves, and God make them do so? So it is God who does the believing for the sinner? Why then does the Bible say,
John 3:18, 36:
"Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God...Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him"

Is this not true? If what you say is right, then God is unjust, which is impossible!

 

[Quantrill]

So when God says to the sinner, you must believe in order to be saved; and if you don't believe, you will be damned for eternity, the sinner cannot decide for themselves, and God make them do so? So it is God who does the believing for the sinner? Why then does the Bible say,
John 3:18, 36:
"Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God...Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him"

Is this not true? If what you say is right, then God is unjust, which is impossible!

Still waiting.

Your belief and faith are not a product of your will? (John 1:13)

Quantrill