The Woman and the 144K

[Sinthesis]

How are the Independent muslim states diverse from all the beasts that were before it?

The scripture says it was diverse from the other beasts before it.
There were discriptions of four beasts.
Does it even resemble the other three beasts at all?


It has seven heads and ten horns plus a little horn that is even diverse from the ten. :eyebrow

That's not much of an answer.
The descriptions are all metaphorical, so could you please interpret the descriptions and explain
how the Independent muslim states are diverse from all the beasts that were before it?
Sassanid,Caliphate,Seljuk and Salidin
Persia
Babylon

 

[veteran]

There are alot of peole who worship the beast.Surely they dont want to think badly of it.
There have been many on this board who speak highly of it.
Are you one of those people?

That's an ignorant statement. I've not seen any believer on our Lord Jesus Christ on this forum speak in a praising manner of any symbolic beast king or kingdom system, either of history or in the future. And nor have I done any such thing, but instead have warned others numerous times about it. If you propose a doctrine, but can't prove it per God's Holy Writ, then you need to face the music, for it shows it's not aligned with God's Word.

Concerning Daniel 7:17 and 7:23, BOTH ideas are being given, the idea of beast kingdoms, AND beast kings (four of them per Dan.7:17). Can't just spin the roulette wheel to decide on which one to heed while discarding the other. BOTH descriptions must be weighed and understood together using common sense.

Here's a simple truth in God's Word about the idea of kingdoms. The word 'kingdom' means a sovereignty or dominion. It REQUIRES a ruler who reigns over a dominion. That's how our English word 'king-dom' is derived. Get it? King-dominion?

 

[Shilohsfoal]

There are alot of peole who worship the beast.Surely they dont want to think badly of it.
There have been many on this board who speak highly of it.
Are you one of those people?

That's an ignorant statement. I've not seen any believer on our Lord Jesus Christ on this forum speak in a praising manner of any symbolic beast king or kingdom system, either of history or in the future. And nor have I done any such thing, but instead have warned others numerous times about it. If you propose a doctrine, but can't prove it per God's Holy Writ, then you need to face the music, for it shows it's not aligned with God's Word.

Concerning Daniel 7:17 and 7:23, BOTH ideas are being given, the idea of beast kingdoms, AND beast kings (four of them per Dan.7:17). Can't just spin the roulette wheel to decide on which one to heed while discarding the other. BOTH descriptions must be weighed and understood together using common sense.

Here's a simple truth in God's Word about the idea of kingdoms. The word 'kingdom' means a sovereignty or dominion. It REQUIRES a ruler who reigns over a dominion. That's how our English word 'king-dom' is derived. Get it? King-dominion?

Good grief veteran.Would I have to spell it out for you?
Those three empires had kings and the fourth being diverse as it is is a devided kingdom in which there are ten who rule that devided empire.They are call countries and they reign as kings for one hour with the beast.Isa that clear enough for you?If not then there is no hope for you.You will be just as blind after reading it as you were before.It doesnt even do you any good to read in the bible that the ten horns are ten kings.You have it in your mind that that devided empire has only one ruler.


Can I even drive it in that thick skull that is is a DEVIDED KINGDOM?

Daniel 2;41
And whereas thou sawest the feet and toes,part of potters clay,and part of iron,the kingdom shall be devided;but there shall be in it of the stregth of the iron,forasmuch as thou sawest the iron mixed with miry clay.

Can you even comprehend the fourth kingdom is a devided kingdom?

Now ,as for the little horn of the beast.They gave Palestine to him and he reigns with them.

 

[Shilohsfoal]

Daniel 8;9
And out of one of them came forth a little horn,which waxed exceedingly great,toward the south,and toward the east,and toward the pleasant land.

The little horn is in the pleasant land.
Does anyone know where the pleasant land is?

I'll give you a hint,its not Rome.

This little horn that is in the pleasant land will have the saints killed.

Daniel 7;21
I beheld,and the same horn made war with the saints,and prevailed against them.

Not in the US .Not in Russia.Not in China,but in the pleasant land.

Rev 12;17
And the dragon was wroth with the woman,and went to make war with the remnant of her seed,which keep the commandments of God,and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

The woman shall flee from the pleasant land and her seed (144,000)shall remain in the pleasant land .


Daniel 7;27
And the kingdom and dominion and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven,shall be given to the people of the saints of the Most high,whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom,and all dominions shall serve and obey him.


The kingdom is taken away from the little horn and given to the saints same as Jesus said in the gospel.


Mt 8;11-12
And I say unto you,That many shall come from the east and west,and shall sit down with Abraham,and Issac,and Jacob,in the kingdom of heaven.
But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness;there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.


I for one will be glad to never hear the forked tongue of that beast again.It can claim the pleasant land belongs to it all it wants but it will be taken away from it and given to the saints.

 

[veteran]

Dan 7:17
17 These great beasts, which are four, are four kings, which shall arise out of the earth.
(KJV)

So you deny that verse is using the beast metaphor for those four kings? Yes or no?

 

[Shilohsfoal]

Dan 7:17
17 These great beasts, which are four, are four kings, which shall arise out of the earth.
(KJV)

So you deny that verse is using the beast metaphor for those four kings? Yes or no?

I say you are just wanting to argue when you have no clue as to what the beast is.
No clue whatsoever.

 

[Sinthesis]

How are the Independent muslim states diverse from all the beasts that were before it?

The scripture says it was diverse from the other beasts before it.
There were discriptions of four beasts.
Does it even resemble the other three beasts at all?


It has seven heads and ten horns plus a little horn that is even diverse from the ten. :eyebrow

That's not much of an answer.
The descriptions are all metaphorical, so could you please interpret the descriptions and explain
how the Independent muslim states are diverse from all the beasts that were before it?
Sassanid,Caliphate,Seljuk and Salidin
Persia
Babylon
You are also leaving gaps of hundreds of years in your reign of beasts.

 

[Shilohsfoal]

How are the Independent muslim states diverse from all the beasts that were before it?

The scripture says it was diverse from the other beasts before it.
There were discriptions of four beasts.
Does it even resemble the other three beasts at all?


It has seven heads and ten horns plus a little horn that is even diverse from the ten. :eyebrow

That's not much of an answer.
The descriptions are all metaphorical, so could you please interpret the descriptions and explain
how the Independent muslim states are diverse from all the beasts that were before it?
Sassanid,Caliphate,Seljuk and Salidin
Persia
Babylon
You are also leaving gaps of hundreds of years in your reign of beasts.

Im not leaving gaps .Those Ive listed as the four beasts all from the same area.
The gaps you mention are when the kings of the west were in Persia.Daniel also spoke of those but he didnt call them beasts.He just called them kings.
The fourth beast is diverse from the three before it because it is governed by so many kings at one time.There are the ten horns(kings)and the 11th little horn.It is not ruled by just one king but many.Also the little horn is diverse from the other ten horns and that is written as well.That litttle horn which calls itself Israel is very different fromthe other ten and as scripture has proven that little horns look is more stout and it subdued three of the others.Those prophecies have been proven correct and those prophecies have been forfilled.There are more prophecies concerning the little horn in the book of Daniel and they corespond to the gospel of Jesus Christ.

 

[Shilohsfoal]

Five kings from the west.

Daniel 8;8
Macedinia,Roman,Byzantine,Ottoman and Great Britian
Therefore the he goat waxed great; and when he was strong,the great horn was broken;and for it came up four notable ones toward the four winds of heaven


Out of Great Britian came the country that calls itself Israel.

Daniel 8;9
And out of one of them came forth a little horn,which waxed exeedingly great,toward the south,and toward the east,and toward the pleasant land.

Independence </wiki/Independence> from British Mandate of Palestine </wiki/British_Mandate_of_Palestine> - Declaration </wiki/Declaration_of_the_Establishment_of_the_State_of_Israel> May 14, 1948 (05 Iyar </wiki/Iyar> 5708)

 

[veteran]

Dan 7:17
17 These great beasts, which are four, are four kings, which shall arise out of the earth.
(KJV)

So you deny that verse is using the beast metaphor for those four kings? Yes or no?

I say you are just wanting to argue when you have no clue as to what the beast is.
No clue whatsoever.

I understand your response to my question as a denial then.

Concerning one who wants to argue, and even act insulting, that's been you so far. And not just towards me on this thread. And afterall, it was you yourself who asked me to prove Biblicaly about the word "beast" being also applied to a king.

 

[veteran]

The fourth beast is diverse from the three before it because it is governed by so many kings at one time.There are the ten horns(kings)and the 11th little horn.It is not ruled by just one king but many.Also the little horn is diverse from the other ten horns and that is written as well.That litttle horn which calls itself Israel is very different fromthe other ten and as scripture has proven that little horns look is more stout and it subdued three of the others.Those prophecies have been proven correct and those prophecies have been forfilled.There are more prophecies concerning the little horn in the book of Daniel and they corespond to the gospel of Jesus Christ.

That underlined part especially, is pure supposition.

The prophecy of the end which Daniel was given is about the subjection of his people (Israel), and Jerusalem, BY the "little horn" or "vile person".

Saying that the "little horn" king "calls itself Israel" is total nonsense. If the little horn was Israel, that would be like the little horn persecuting itself!

 

[Shilohsfoal]

The fourth beast is diverse from the three before it because it is governed by so many kings at one time.There are the ten horns(kings)and the 11th little horn.It is not ruled by just one king but many.Also the little horn is diverse from the other ten horns and that is written as well.That litttle horn which calls itself Israel is very different fromthe other ten and as scripture has proven that little horns look is more stout and it subdued three of the others.Those prophecies have been proven correct and those prophecies have been forfilled.There are more prophecies concerning the little horn in the book of Daniel and they corespond to the gospel of Jesus Christ.

That underlined part especially, is pure supposition.

The prophecy of the end which Daniel was given is about the subjection of his people (Israel), and Jerusalem, BY the "little horn" or "vile person".

Saying that the "little horn" king "calls itself Israel" is total nonsense. If the little horn was Israel, that would be like the little horn persecuting itself!

You dont even know what the word Israel means therefore you dont know who Israel is.
To say the antichrist is against the nation that dwells in Judea is ignorant.95% of the poeople who dwell in Judea are antichrist.To say the antichrist shall persecute the antichrist is nonsence.
Go learn who Israel is then come back and we can have a conversation.Untill you get some knowledge on the subject,there is no reason to carry on this conversation any longer.

Daniel 11;32
And such as do wickedly against the covenant shall he corrupt with flatteries;but the people that do know thier God shall be strong,and do exploits.

For heavens sake veteran ,Learn the difference between those who do wickedly against the covenant and those who do know thier God.He doesnt persecute those jews who do wickedly against the covenant.There is only a small minority of Jews who are persecuted.The scriptures call them saints.

 

[adam332]

Forgive me if these points have been made.
The woman is the body of Christ, all believers. There are two woman portrayed, the pure apostolic church in Rev. 12. Then there is the woman of Rev. 17, who represents the harlot church and is the unsaved.

This fits perfectly with the image of Christ returning to claim his bride. There would then be the harlot who went whoring and was found unacceptable because she's unfaithful. She doesn't get called to the wedding.

There are many ways to describe the harlot church. They are the bridesmaids who failed to fill their lamps and were left banging on the door pleading to be let in. They are the ones who did what they wanted until it was too late and Christ shows like a thief in the night.

The 144k, I believe, will be those righteous who are alive when Christ comes, the ones who rise with the resurrected in the air to meet Christ.

One reason, I don't think that they are literal Israelites is because the 12 tribes listed in OT, don't match those listed in Rev. Revelation uses old testament imagery, it speaks of Egypt, Israel, Euphrates, etc...

I think they are the same type of imagery we see in other places, like....

Luke 17:26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man. 27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all. 28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded; 29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all. 30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

It compares these OT images with the future global event. Like Moses delivering God's people out of Egypt, we know it is a shadow. It foreshadows the true global deliverance, not localized to Egypt.

Also like Armageddon, spoken of in Rev. puts the image of the battle of Gideon which was another shadow/symbol of the true battle. But the true battle will not be in one valley, it'll be global. Every eye shall see him and his army of angels.

Just my thoughts.

 

[veteran]

The fourth beast is diverse from the three before it because it is governed by so many kings at one time.There are the ten horns(kings)and the 11th little horn.It is not ruled by just one king but many.Also the little horn is diverse from the other ten horns and that is written as well.That litttle horn which calls itself Israel is very different fromthe other ten and as scripture has proven that little horns look is more stout and it subdued three of the others.Those prophecies have been proven correct and those prophecies have been forfilled.There are more prophecies concerning the little horn in the book of Daniel and they corespond to the gospel of Jesus Christ.

That underlined part especially, is pure supposition.

The prophecy of the end which Daniel was given is about the subjection of his people (Israel), and Jerusalem, BY the "little horn" or "vile person".

Saying that the "little horn" king "calls itself Israel" is total nonsense. If the little horn was Israel, that would be like the little horn persecuting itself!

You dont even know what the word Israel means therefore you dont know who Israel is.
To say the antichrist is against the nation that dwells in Judea is ignorant.95% of the poeople who dwell in Judea are antichrist.To say the antichrist shall persecute the antichrist is nonsence.
Go learn who Israel is then come back and we can have a conversation.Untill you get some knowledge on the subject,there is no reason to carry on this conversation any longer.

Daniel 11;32
And such as do wickedly against the covenant shall he corrupt with flatteries;but the people that do know thier God shall be strong,and do exploits.

For heavens sake veteran ,Learn the difference between those who do wickedly against the covenant and those who do know thier God.He doesnt persecute those jews who do wickedly against the covenant.There is only a small minority of Jews who are persecuted.The scriptures call them saints.

It's really you that doesn't understand about that nation of Israel in the holy land today. The antichrist is coming to sieze it, yes. The orthodox Jews will be deceived by that false one coming there to portray Messiah, yes. But it's only "a small people" that Daniel was given to mention that will be behind the "little horn" in supporting him TO COME TO POWER. The majority of Jews there are looking for Messiah, and will think the true Messiah has come, JUST AS MANY CHRISTIAN BRETHREN WILL BELIEVE IT ALONG WITH THEM TOO! For that's what the great falling away Paul spoke of is about.

And nowhere is it written in Scripture that that "little horn" calls himself by the name of Israel that would point to any such idea that the antichrist is the nation of Israel itself. That's the part which has misled you, and is supposition.

 

[veteran]

Forgive me if these points have been made.
The woman is the body of Christ, all believers. There are two woman portrayed, the pure apostolic church in Rev. 12. Then there is the woman of Rev. 17, who represents the harlot church and is the unsaved.

This fits perfectly with the image of Christ returning to claim his bride. There would then be the harlot who went whoring and was found unacceptable because she's unfaithful. She doesn't get called to the wedding.

There are many ways to describe the harlot church. They are the bridesmaids who failed to fill their lamps and were left banging on the door pleading to be let in. They are the ones who did what they wanted until it was too late and Christ shows like a thief in the night.

The 144k, I believe, will be those righteous who are alive when Christ comes, the ones who rise with the resurrected in the air to meet Christ.

One reason, I don't think that they are literal Israelites is because the 12 tribes listed in OT, don't match those listed in Rev. Revelation uses old testament imagery, it speaks of Egypt, Israel, Euphrates, etc...

I think they are the same type of imagery we see in other places, like....

Luke 17:26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man. 27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all. 28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded; 29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all. 30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

It compares these OT images with the future global event. Like Moses delivering God's people out of Egypt, we know it is a shadow. It foreshadows the true global deliverance, not localized to Egypt.

Also like Armageddon, spoken of in Rev. puts the image of the battle of Gideon which was another shadow/symbol of the true battle. But the true battle will not be in one valley, it'll be global. Every eye shall see him and his army of angels.

Just my thoughts.

Good witness on the separate judgments to occur with Christ's coming.

Can't agree with that idea about 144,000 though.

 

[adam332]

Veteran,
you don't agree with my thoughts on the 144k? That's fine. Do you have a proposal why the names don't line up with the twelve OT tribes? And who is the rest of the multitude? Might they not be the righteous dead who are resurrected, the majority of all the believers that ever lived?

Honestly this is speculation. Some things I feel justified and bringing forth as Biblical. Some issues have not enough information to feel comfortable teaching it as other than speculation.

Sometimes there just isn't enough information either way to tell.

 

[veteran]

Veteran,
you don't agree with my thoughts on the 144k? That's fine. Do you have a proposal why the names don't line up with the twelve OT tribes? And who is the rest of the multitude? Might they not be the righteous dead who are resurrected, the majority of all the believers that ever lived?

Honestly this is speculation. Some things I feel justified and bringing forth as Biblical. Some issues have not enough information to feel comfortable teaching it as other than speculation.

Sometimes there just isn't enough information either way to tell.

Yeah, I PM'd you with some Scripture points to consider. There's been a lot of speculation on that 144,000 of Israel, which I think comes from many confusing the idea of their being all orthodox Jews that come to Christ only during the tribulation. And, because only that 144,000 are specifically mentioned as being God's servants that are 'sealed'. Many would naturally think, "Well, where's the rest of Christ's elect, like the believing Gentiles? Aren't they sealed as God's servants too and make up part of His Church?" The fact is, they are mentioned too, but not until the Rev.7:9 verse. The Scripture just does not specifically say they are sealed like the 144,000. But both groups are shown present near God's throne and with Christ in final (Rev.7:15 and Rev.14:1-5).

Rev.7 has a prophetic timeline view to after the tribulation, which is when John was asked where that great multitude came from. He is told they came out of great tribualtion, and made their robes white in the Blood of The Lamb, pointing to their overcoming through the tribulation. God's sealing of His servants is about the sealing of His elect servants that overcome and are not deceived. Paul showed that sealing by The Holy Spirit in Eph.1 & 4.

 

[guysmith]

Veteran,

You stated: There's been a lot of speculation on that 144,000 of Israel, which I think comes from many confusing the idea of their being all orthodox Jews that come to Christ only during the tribulation. And, because only that 144,000 are specifically mentioned as being God's servants that are 'sealed'.

My response: Have you ever considered the posibility that the reason the "144,000 are specifically mentioned as being God's servants that are 'sealed'" is because they are the only Christians remaining on the earth ("redeemed from the earth") at the time of the sealing?

Guy

 

[adam332]

The sealing is shadowed with the blood of the passover lamb from the Exodus story. They had to smear the lambs blood on their door frames as a seal/sign they would not be harmed by the wrath of God that was coming.

Also remember, as God was smiting the wicked with plagues they in turn were taking it out on God's people. So the bad guys punished the good guys because they were being punished by God. I think this is what we can expect during the endtimes.

If the rest of the multitude represents the righteous dead, then they wouldn't need to be sealed from being hurt by the endtime plagues.

Adam

 

[Shilohsfoal]

And nowhere is it written in Scripture that that "little horn" calls himself by the name of Israel that would point to any such idea that the antichrist is the nation of Israel itself. That's the part which has misled you, and is supposition.

I never said the scripture called the little horn Israel .I said the little horn calls himself Israel and that is why you dont know who the beast is.He decieved you Veteran just like he has decieved every jew who wanderd after him.All the scriptures that pertain to the little horn have been coming to pass since it came into the plesant land which just soi happens to be a prophecy that has come top pass in itself.

What you dont seem to understand is the fact that the king of the north is not the little horn.
It is written that a host shall be given to the little horn and that host shall take away the daily sacrifice.The little horn does not take away the daily sacrifice .

Dan 8;12
And a host was given him against the daily sacrifice by reason of transgression,and it cast down the truth to the ground;and it practiced and prosperd.


If you read verses Dan 8;9-12 you will notice a host is given to the little horn and it is against the dsaily sacrifice.Same as
Daniel 11;31.
And arms shall stand on his part,and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength,and shall take away the daily sacrifice,and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.

Again.its not the little horn(The Israeli regime)that takes away the daily sacrifice.It is the host(arms)that is sent unto him by the king of the north.Just as it is not the first beast that gives them the mark of the beast.It is the second and it is not the first beast who will kill those who dont worship him.It is the second beast that shall kill them

Just as it was not the Sanhedrin that killed Jesus.It was the Romans who killed Jesus for the Sanhedrin.