The word Rapture is in the Bible

[RandyK]

Let's forget the chart you partially responded to. I only want to ask you one last question.

It's difficult and tedious answering questions that I view as irrelevant regardless. You want me to answer questions based on the assumption that 2 events are separate when in my view they are the same event?

So I'm supposed to recognize differences between these 2 events when those supposed "differences" are in common with both so-called "events?" I'm not interested in answering a great number of questions that are better summarized as "irrelevant" and "presumptuous." You are presuming that the 2 events are separate when in my view they're not.

After the Second Coming, who enters the Millennium? In other words, who else besides the Resurrected believers and the translated believers enter the Millennium? This is not a trick question. I just want a legitimate answer from a Post-Tribber.

I don't represent all Postribbers. My own view is that at Armageddon a good portion of the world's population dies, but a good portion also survives. So these survivors enter into the Millennial Age without experiencing what Christians do on the last day of the present age.

On the day Christ returns, on the last day of the present age, true Christians, who have survived Armageddon, will be caught up to meet Christ as he comes with the clouds. It will be instantaneous, and virtually seamless.

We will return with Christ from the clouds in glorified, immortal bodies. And by authority of our word, together with the command of Christ, we will establish spiritual order on earth, disallowing Satanic rule among the nations.

Satan himself will be bound by angels during this period. People will still have a Sin Nature, but they will not be badgered and incited into having international wars. Swords will be turned into plowshares.

 

[hawkman]

Do not misquote or misrepresent another member. Do not state a negative opinion about a member's denomination, leaders, founders, or the veracity of a member's faith. (Exodus 20:16)

 

[RandyK]

You're assuming what you are wishing to prove! There is only the 2nd Coming--that's when the Rapture takes place. Do you hear what Paul is saying here?...

2 Thes 2.1 Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him....

Paul is making the assumption that the 2nd Coming and the Rapture of the Church are simultaneous! So when one draws the opposite conclusion, that they are separate, he is choosing to ignore Paul and to reject Scripture!

LaHaye begins with the assumption that the Rapture of the Church and the 2nd Coming of Christ are two separate events, when that cannot be proven!

What I'm saying is that the exact same elements that apply to the Rapture of the Church also apply to the 2nd Coming of Christ. And we know that because the origin of all NT eschatology is Daniel 7, which combines the Rapture of the Church with the 2nd Coming.

Although the Daniel reference is OT, and Israel is primarily in focus, it is the basis for all NT eschatology, as Israel's promises are expanded to apply to the International Church. Christ comes with the clouds, and that is when the Rapture of the Church takes place.

And Christ comes with the clouds in Dan 9, which is when the Kingdom of God is established on earth, and the Antichrist is defeated! So the Rapture of the Church takes place when the Son of Man comes with the clouds in a Postribulational context!

This is another subject, which I'm happy to address. But it is a distraction from the main point, which is that the Rapture of the Church takes place *at* the 2nd Coming of Christ. This is the "appearance" of Christ that we are encouraged to "wait for" as Christians, the "Blessed Hope." It is the coming of Christ to destroy the Antichrist, save the Church, and establish God's Kingdom on earth permanently.

I've been doing this for over 20 years. I've always taken the questions seriously. And I'm always open to correction from the Lord. We are *on the same side!*

Yes, I'm a Postribber. Thanks for listening.

Since I cannot edit after a period of time, I have add that I mistakenly referenced Dan 9 above when I meant to reference Dan 7, which is where end-time prophecy provides the basic blueprint for NT eschatology.

 

[MisterE]

RandyK, You wrote:

It's difficult and tedious answering questions that I view as irrelevant regardless. You want me to answer questions based on the assumption that 2 events are separate when in my view they are the same event?

I thought you would say that. This creates a huge problem for Post Tribs. If the Rapture and the Second Coming are the "same event," then all believers are either Resurrected or Translated at the end of the Tribulation. All believers are taken up at the Rapture/Second Coming. Now, here is the problem. There is nobody left in their mortal bodies to enter the Millennial Reign of Christ. So, there is nobody to populate the Millennial Kingdom. Who populates the Millennial Kingdom since only resurrected or translated believers are alive at the start of the Millennium?

 

[RandyK]

RandyK, You wrote:

It's difficult and tedious answering questions that I view as irrelevant regardless. You want me to answer questions based on the assumption that 2 events are separate when in my view they are the same event?

I thought you would say that. This creates a huge problem for Post Tribs. If the Rapture and the Second Coming are the "same event," then all believers are either Resurrected or Translated at the end of the Tribulation. All believers are taken up at the Rapture/Second Coming. Now, here is the problem. There is nobody left in their mortal bodies to enter the Millennial Reign of Christ. So, there is nobody to populate the Millennial Kingdom. Who populates the Millennial Kingdom since only resurrected or translated believers are alive at the start of the Millennium?

I don't see that as a problem at all? Yes, Postribs like myself see the resurrection taking place when Antichrist is defeated. That's what we read in Rev 20. It's called the "1st Resurrection."

Those who are not yet Christians, who have survived Armageddon, will enter into the Millennial Age. Just like after WW2 those who survived the war entered into the Post-War Era.

Christians who are taken out are a very small portion of the world population. Nominal Christians number in the billions, but genuine Christians, who truly believe and live out their faith, are relatively small. Jesus called them the few who walk down the narrow way and enter into life.

The world will continue for another thousand years past the Rapture of the Church. Armageddon is, in my view, a nuclear war and also a world war. Major cities will fall in one hour, and the governments of all nations will be reduced to rubble, so to speak.

But just like in the previous world wars, many will survive. The program of evangelization then will reach a different stage.

The evangelistic program of the present age is designed to prepare people in an age of Satanic abuse. But in the age to come, evangelism will take place with much less opposition. Still, people will have a sin nature, and ultimately will fall back on it when Satan is released.

 

[MisterE]

I don't see that as a problem at all? Yes, Postribs like myself see the resurrection taking place when Antichrist is defeated. That's what we read in Rev 20. It's called the "1st Resurrection."

Those who are not yet Christians, who have survived Armageddon, will enter into the Millennial Age. Just like after WW2 those who survived the war entered into the Post-War Era.

Christians who are taken out are a very small portion of the world population. Nominal Christians number in the billions, but genuine Christians, who truly believe and live out their faith, are relatively small. Jesus called them the few who walk down the narrow way and enter into life.

The world will continue for another thousand years past the Rapture of the Church. Armageddon is, in my view, a nuclear war and also a world war. Major cities will fall in one hour, and the governments of all nations will be reduced to rubble, so to speak.

But just like in the previous world wars, many will survive. The program of evangelization then will reach a different stage.

The evangelistic program of the present age is designed to prepare people in an age of Satanic abuse. But in the age to come, evangelism will take place with much less opposition. Still, people will have a sin nature, and ultimately will fall back on it when Satan is released.

With Post-Tribbers, at the Rapture/Second Coming ALL are resurrected or translated. There is no mortals alive entering the Millennium. You can't just say I dont see a problem. It is insurmountable. There is no solution to this dilemma that the Post-Tribber faces. Remember, you connect the Rapture (where all believers are either resurrected (if they are dead) or Translated (if they are alive). For example, all those believers who make it through Armageddon, will be translated at the Second Coming. There will not be one mortal entering the Millennium under the Post-Trib Model.

This has gone on long enough, I will do some more posts on other topics shortly. I am getting bored with our exchanges.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

You wrote:

"Well, the word harpazō occurs a bunch of other places in the NT. In a lot of them a rapture doesn't fit."

Not exactly what you are contending here. Like most words, harpazō has many usages/meanings. Also, rapture means to take by force, so the word rapture fits several of the verses you quote.

Whatever you think it means, "sudden disapperance" in alien abduction style, as it's commonly preached from the pulpit, is absolutely fictional. 1 Thess. 4:16-17 is merely a prophecy of the second coming, when Jesus returns, the dead will be resurrected, along with the survivors to reign with Christ - on earth.

"Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years." (Rev. 20:4)

Another false doctrine is that from Rev. 4:1 to the end, apostle John was "raptured to heave". But John was still in the Island of Patmos, he was seeing a divine vision, he wasn't physically teleported anywhere.