Bible Study The Work of God: Terminal Agitation Ending in Silence

[smaller]

Angels are called sons of God.

Lucifer is an angel.

Ta da! See how easy that was?!

Adam was created by God, and is called God's son.

Angels are created by God and are called sons of God.

35 But those who are counted worthy to attain that age, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry nor are given in marriage; 36 nor can they die anymore, for they are equal to the angels and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection.
Luke 20:35-36

“Where were you when I laid the foundations of the earth?
Tell Me, if you have understanding.
5 Who determined its measurements?
Surely you know!
Or who stretched the line upon it?
6 To what were its foundations fastened?
Or who laid its cornerstone,
7 When the morning stars sang together,
And all the sons of God shouted for joy?
Job 38:4-7

JLB

Hebrews 1:5
For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?

 

[JLB]

Like I said, I appreciate your avoidance of answering direct questions. You know your beliefs of God being The Father of disobedient spirits or devils or Satan or Lucifer would be considered blatant heresy in mainstream Christianity.

• God is the Father of spirits.

9 Furthermore, we have had human fathers who corrected us, and we paid them respect. Shall we not much more readily be in subjection to the Father of spirits and live? Hebrews 12:9

• Angels are spirits.

Who makes His angels spirits, his ministers a flame of fire. Psalm 104:4




Do you believe Lucifer is an angel?




JLB

 

[JLB]

Ta da! See how easy that was?!

Yes, it was easy to refute your silly idea that God is not the Father of angels.


JLB

 

[JLB]

Hebrews 1:5
For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?

Yes, I agree.

Angels are not begotten sons of God.



JLB

 

[Chopper]

• I agree that if a believer has an open door, through disobedience, rebellion, and the like, then Satan has a legal right to oppress them.

• What I don't believe is that Satan dwell's in the flesh and in the mind of believer's, and is "doing" the sinning.

Dwell as in remain's continually, is the Greek word that Paul uses to describe how sin dwell's or is present continually in our flesh.

Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. Romans 7:20


Sin, not Satan, dwell's [remains continually] in our mortal body and will remain there, until our body is resurrected and transformed, in which death will be swallowed up with life.


Satan may have a right to come and oppress us, if we break through the "hedge" as it were, or get off into rebellion, but when we repent, and are forgiven and "cleansed" of all unrighteousness, then then the door or access has been closed to Satan.


The goal is to mature into the image and likeness of Jesus where we are led by the Spirit and walk in the spirit, and learn how to "keep ourselves" so that the wicked one does not touch us.

We know that whoever is born of God does not sin; but he who has been born of God keeps himself, and the wicked one does not touch him. 1 John 5:18



Mark 4:15 certainly does not say that Satan dwells in our flesh and in our mind.

• 2 Corinthians 12:7 does not say Satan was "in" Paul's flesh.

• 2 Corinthians 12:7 does say a messenger of Satan was given to me to buffet me, not "dwell in my flesh".

And lest I should be exalted above measure by the abundance of the revelations, a thorn in the flesh was given to me, a messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I be exalted above measure. 2 Corinthians 12:7

Let me show you just how ridiculous this theory is.

The reason Paul gives for this messenger of Satan being given to him was: lest I should be exalted above measure by the abundance of the revelations.

So we are to conclude, based on Smaller's theory, that while Paul was persecuting the Church, and without Christ, Satan was not dwelling in his flesh, but after He became a Spirit filled believer, and was caught up to heaven, then Satan now has a right to enter paul and dwell in his flesh and in his mind, throughout the time he wrote the New Testament.


Brother, can you see the utter insanity of such a notion?


The messenger of Satan was given to him, and allowed to buffet Paul, because God allowed it for his good, that he would not get puffed up in pride.


Satan has a right to access and oppress believer's who violate or transgress God's law in disobedience.

Can you see the difference in these two completely different scenario's?


I will stop there and hope to get some feed back from you before I continue.




JLB

All right JLB. I believe some of what you are saying, and perhaps I can make my position clear for you to understand.

I do not believe that a demon took up residence in Paul's heart, or mind. The indwelling of the Holy Spirit will not allow that. Where I feel strong is where you see the sin or lust of the flesh, there is Satan at the controls. I believe that somehow Satan can manipulate the human flesh without actually "living" in the heart and mind. Can you see that?

I think that I'll leave it at that. I'd be happy to answer any questions. You and I go back quite far and are good friends. Lets reason together.

 

[Chopper]

Frank Hammond - Pigs in the parlor.

Derek Prince - They shall expel demons

Lester Sumrall -

Have you read Alien Entities? If so, what did you like about it?

 

[JLB]

I do not believe that a demon took up residence in Paul's heart, or mind. The indwelling of the Holy Spirit will not allow that. Where I feel strong is where you see the sin or lust of the flesh, there is Satan at the controls. I believe that somehow Satan can manipulate the human flesh without actually "living" in the heart and mind. Can you see that?

I believe he can stimulate lustful desires, and attach himself to a person who is disobedient, and rebellious.

I don't believe Satan dwells in our flesh, like the sin that Paul describes.

This may shock you about my beliefs, since I know you think I oppose the work of deliverance, and so forth [which of course I don't]
I believe, a Christian, a covenant child of God, are the only one's who have the right to have the devil cast out of them.


IOW if you belong to the devil then he has a right to you.

But Jesus said to her, “Let the children be filled first, for it is not good to take the children’s bread and throw it to the little dogs.”
Mark 7:27

This is a reference to the children of Abraham, and the Abrahamic Covenant, which provided God's blessing upon them, one of which was protection from their enemy.

To me, only a blood bought, born again Christian has the right to deliverance.

However, as led by the Spirit, we can indeed cast the devil out of unbelievers, so that they can receive Christ.

Key Phrase: Led by the spirit.

Even born again Christians that still "like" their sin, and just want to rid of the embossing inconvenience and torment that results from it, will find it difficult to get free until the renounce it and learn to hate it.


The fear of the Lord is to hate evil.


JLB

 

[JLB]

Have you read Alien Entities? If so, what did you like about it?

I can't remember.

I read so many books early on.

I listened to his many experiences in the demons and deliverance series, called Principalities and Powers I & II.

He gives reference to that series and the work book that came out of those teaching.

Most people don't know too much about him.

He was a disciple of Smith Wigglesworth, and many believe he received his mantle when Smith went home.

The story he told was after years of traveling with Smith, it was time for Lester to move out in his own ministry, and Smith ordained him, by laying hands on him and embracing him in a hug, while praying for him, Smith was weeping and his tears were running down his cheek and dripping onto Lester Sumrall, while asking God's blessing and power to rest upon him.



JLB

 

[smaller]

Angels are called sons of God. Lucifer is an angel.

Messengers = Angels have many meanings and encompass different entities. It's not a scriptural fact that angels are the sons of God whatsoever.

 

[Chopper]

I believe he can stimulate lustful desires, and attach himself to a person who is disobedient, and rebellious.

I don't believe Satan dwells in our flesh, like the sin that Paul describes.

This may shock you about my beliefs, since I know you think I oppose the work of deliverance, and so forth [which of course I don't]
I believe, a Christian, a covenant child of God, are the only one's who have the right to have the devil cast out of them.


IOW if you belong to the devil then he has a right to you.

But Jesus said to her, “Let the children be filled first, for it is not good to take the children’s bread and throw it to the little dogs.”
Mark 7:27

This is a reference to the children of Abraham, and the Abrahamic Covenant, which provided God's blessing upon them, one of which was protection from their enemy.

To me, only a blood bought, born again Christian has the right to deliverance.

However, as led by the Spirit, we can indeed cast the devil out of unbelievers, so that they can receive Christ.

Key Phrase: Led by the spirit.

Even born again Christians that still "like" their sin, and just want to rid of the embossing inconvenience and torment that results from it, will find it difficult to get free until the renounce it and learn to hate it.


The fear of the Lord is to hate evil.


JLB

There ya go my friend. We certainly are on the same page on this one. Those who enter into spiritual warfare with out a season of fasting and prayer will get hurt. The Holy Spirit will not put His sugar in a garbage can.

 

[smaller]

The workings of sin, from thought form origination which Jesus says evil comes from, within, is spelled out in painstaking detail by Paul, applied to himself, in Romans 7.

Paul shows that indwelling sin caused evil/lustful/sexually inclined thoughts in Romans 7:7-13.

Paul called that sin "no more I" twice.

We know sin is not forensic. We can't cut open the flesh and find it.

We also know that sin is lawbreaking or transgression of or disobedience to law, 1 John 3:4, to which Romans 7:7-13 speaks of directly, transpiring in Paul's own mind. Yes, Paul had evil defiling thoughts caused by NOT PAUL.

This leaves really only one option. That sin is an action of SPIRITUAL DISOBEDIENCE.

And we know that the prince of this world, the devil, Satan, is a spirit of disobedience. Eph. 2:2.

Sin and the spirit of disobedience are directly connected. The spirit of disobedience is also the "evil present" with Paul. AKA the "messenger of Satan" in Paul's flesh. Romans 11:32, 2 Cor. 12:7.

We can dance around the subject matter, but scriptures do provide direct hits on this subject matter, connecting sin to Satan, 1 John 3:8, Mark 4:15.

The body of scriptural evidence doesn't leave any wiggle room.

 

[JLB]

Messengers = Angels have many meanings and encompass different entities. It's not a scriptural fact that angels are the sons of God whatsoever.

You have a right to your opinion, but in the face of scripture, it is lacking in truthful content.


Could you discuss the scriptures I provided, that show the sons of God is a reference to angels.

Angels are created by God and are called sons of God.

...for they are equal to the angels and are sons of God,

35 But those who are counted worthy to attain that age, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry nor are given in marriage; 36 nor can they die anymore, for they are equal to the angels and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection.
Luke 20:35-36


“Where were you when I laid the foundations of the earth?
Tell Me, if you have understanding.
5 Who determined its measurements?
Surely you know!
Or who stretched the line upon it?
6 To what were its foundations fastened?
Or who laid its cornerstone,
7 When the morning stars sang together,
And all the sons of God shouted for joy?
Job 38:4-7


Angels are spirits and have God as their Father, and creator.

9 Furthermore, we have had human fathers who corrected us, and we paid them respect. Shall we not much more readily be in subjection to the Father of spirits and live? Hebrews 12:9


And of the angels He says: “Who makes His angels spirits and His ministers a flame of fire. Hebrews 1:7




JLB

 

[smaller]

The Holy Spirit will not put His sugar in a garbage can.

Chopper, Paul was very clear that sin dwelled in his flesh, and evil was present with him. Romans 7:17-21. Can you spell garbage can?

YET Paul had the Spirit of Christ in him.

I'd suggest a closer look at that sugar spin story.

The notion that believers have to make themselves "sinless" in order to have the Spirit of Christ in them is a FALSE NOTION that a lot of christians are sold. It's a basic LIE. As is the notion that the spirit of disobedience can not be in the flesh IF the Holy Spirit is within a persons heart. The fact is both not only can be simultaneously present, but ARE simultaneously present.

Paul termed himself the chief of sinners after salvation. 1 Tim. 1:15

IF we see the fact that Paul was tempted, INTERNALLY, in his mind, by the tempter, Satan, and SAW THAT as a fact Paul was not looking at only himself in the equations of sin, but was also pointing to the tempter, Satan's operations in the flesh via the spirit of disobedience. That's HOW Paul derived his state as "chief of sinners." Because Paul was dealing with the chief of sinners, Satan, in his temptations.

Sin is not a matter of only man. Satan and his messengers ARE involved. And yes, sin is of the devil. 1 John 3:8.

 

[JLB]

The workings of sin, from thought form origination which Jesus says evil comes from, within, is spelled out in painstaking detail by Paul, applied to himself, in Romans 7.

Please post these painful details from scripture so we can discuss the actual language and wording of scripture.

. 18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find. 19 For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice. 20 Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.

21 I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good. 22 For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man. 23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. 24 O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? 25 I thank God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!

So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.
There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. Romans 7:18-8:1


Satan is not mentioned in these verse's, but rather it is sin that is mentioned.


Those Christians who live their lives, allowing the flesh to serve sin, whereby they practice the works of the flesh, are under condemnation.



JLB

 

[smaller]

You have a right to your opinion, but in the face of scripture, it is lacking in truthful content. Could you discuss the scriptures I provided, that show the sons of God is a reference to angels.

Angels are created by God and are called sons of God.

As noted prior, the term "angel" merely means messenger. It is applied to God, to holy messengers, to evil messengers and to mankind messengers of both the good and evil sorts.

So saying that angel automatically equates any of same to being Gods 'sons' is a basic misnomer. The very first question in such examinations are WHICH MESSENGERS are we being referred to?

...for they are equal to the angels and are sons of God,

Being equal to or LIKE does not mean they are the same. It is only in your mind that connection is made, but it's NOT there in writing. Again, the question here is HOW are the like or equal to? We know they can't die. And we have a specific discourse about HOW they are like or equal to, i.e. not marrying or given in marriage. Which was Jesus' response to the religious twits who wondered which husband of 7 a widow would be the wife of.

What your "mind" did to that stretch of scripture goes waaay beyond what is actually stated therein.

“Where were you when I laid the foundations of the earth?
Tell Me, if you have understanding.
5 Who determined its measurements?
Surely you know!
Or who stretched the line upon it?
6 To what were its foundations fastened?
Or who laid its cornerstone,
7 When the morning stars sang together,
And all the sons of God shouted for joy?
Job 38:4-7

http://biblia.com/bible/kjv1900/Job 38.4-7

Nothing there equating to what you are trying to claim.

Angels are spirits and have God as their Father, and creator.

Creator, yes. Father, different matter altogether. And yes, there is a difference. Being the Creator of anything doesn't automatically make the Creator the Father of everything created.

9 Furthermore, we have had human fathers who corrected us, and we paid them respect. Shall we not much more readily be in subjection to the Father of spirits and live? Hebrews 12:9 And of the angels He says: “Who makes His angels spirits and His ministers a flame of fire. Hebrews 1:7

Same observation as before. There are MANY different kinds of spirits. They are not all the same just as not all angels are the same. When a term such as angel or spirit is deployed, we HAVE to look at what class or classes of such we are observing.

God for example is assuredly NOT the Father of the antiChrist spirits. It's not even possible. God can however be the Creator of them, as was the Creator of them.

Do you get the picture yet?

Your head got knotted up in some weirdness trying to make God the Father of the devil, Satan.

 

[Chopper]

I can't remember.

I read so many books early on.

I listened to his many experiences in the demons and deliverance series, called Principalities and Powers I & II.

He gives reference to that series and the work book that came out of those teaching.

Most people don't know too much about him.

He was a disciple of Smith Wigglesworth, and many believe he received his mantle when Smith went home.

The story he told was after years of traveling with Smith, it was time for Lester to move out in his own ministry, and Smith ordained him, by laying hands on him and embracing him in a hug, while praying for him, Smith was weeping and his tears were running down his cheek and dripping onto Lester Sumrall, while asking God's blessing and power to rest upon him.



JLB

Lester Sumrall is quite famous in his own right. I have read quite a bit on Smith Wigglesworth. If I remember corectly, I have at least one of his books. I have actually watched Sumrall on TV years ago. I believe he died in the 60s?

 

[smaller]

Please post these painful details from scripture so we can discuss the actual language and wording of scripture.

I said painstaking which means "extremely detailed." Not painful.

Satan is not mentioned in these verse's, but rather it is sin that is mentioned.

Indwelling sin and evil present is NOT forensic.

Scripture presents that sin IS of the devil. Scripture also presents the devil as the spirit of disobedience. Mark 4:15, Eph. 2:2.

Those Christians who live their lives, allowing the flesh to serve sin, whereby they practice the works of the flesh, are under condemnation.

You still don't get the facts as Paul stated them. Paul NEVER claimed that the sin indwelling his flesh or the evil present with him were inactive or didn't do what they did. Paul presents an exact opposite case. That indwelling sin, NO MORE I, and evil present DO what they do, and that these were NOT PAUL, but warred with Paul, in his own MIND. Romans 7:23.

Somehow you got it into your head that the sin indwelling your flesh and the evil present with you is legally obedient and faithful when in fact that is an impossibility.

Indwelling sin and evil present do not go away and do not stop doing what they do and being what they are just because somebody believes in Jesus.

ALL christians are and remain sinners. Period. 1 John 1:8.

Those who say they are not are your basic every day LIARS. Which LYING I have to chalk up to indwelling sin and evil present. Romans 7:17-21. And these adverse workings in the flesh also seem to bring along a large dose of blindness, denial and deceptions about these particular matters.

Tell any christian they are sinners and their sins are in fact of the devil and they usually go absolutely WILD in denial.

 

[smaller]

Lester Sumrall is quite famous in his own right. I have read quite a bit on Smith Wigglesworth. If I remember corectly, I have at least one of his books. I have actually watched Sumrall on TV years ago. I believe he died in the 60s?

I met Sumrall many long years ago (before his death obviously). He laid hands on me and prayed. Nice guy. He was a fairly down to earth fellow, apart from his pulpit persona.

 

[JLB]

Lester Sumrall is quite famous in his own right. I have read quite a bit on Smith Wigglesworth. If I remember corectly, I have at least one of his books. I have actually watched Sumrall on TV years ago. I believe he died in the 60s?

No, Not that early.

It was 1996.


He laid hands on me a Lakewood, when John Osteen was still there.



JLB

 

[JLB]

I said painstaking which means "extremely detailed." Not painful.

Ok, please post the painstaking detail from Romans 7 that says Satan dwells in our flesh.

. 18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find. 19 For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice. 20 Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.

21 I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good. 22 For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man. 23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. 24 O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? 25 I thank God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!

So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.
There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. Romans 7:18-8:1


Satan is not mentioned in these verse's, but rather it is sin that is mentioned.


Those Christians who live their lives, allowing the flesh to serve sin, whereby they practice the works of the flesh, are under condemnation.



JLB