Bible Study The Work of God: Terminal Agitation Ending in Silence

[JLB]

As noted prior, the term "angel" merely means messenger. It is applied to God, to holy messengers, to evil messengers and to mankind messengers of both the good and evil sorts.

So saying that angel automatically equates any of same to being Gods 'sons' is a basic misnomer. The very first question in such examinations are WHICH MESSENGERS are we being referred to?

No scripture again.... HMMMM

 

[JLB]

Same observation as before. There are MANY different kinds of spirits. They are not all the same just as not all angels are the same. When a term such as angel or spirit is deployed, we HAVE to look at what class or classes of such we are observing.

God for example is assuredly NOT the Father of the antiChrist spirits. It's not even possible. God can however be the Creator of them, as was the Creator of them.

Do you get the picture yet?

Your head got knotted up in some weirdness trying to make God the Father of the devil, Satan.

No Scripture again, in the face of the scriptures I provided to validate my belief.


Could you discuss the scriptures I provided, that show the sons of God is a reference to angels.

Angels are created by God and are called sons of God.

...for they are equal to the angels and are sons of God,

35 But those who are counted worthy to attain that age, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry nor are given in marriage; 36 nor can they die anymore, for they are equal to the angels and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection.
Luke 20:35-36


“Where were you when I laid the foundations of the earth?
Tell Me, if you have understanding.
5 Who determined its measurements?
Surely you know!
Or who stretched the line upon it?
6 To what were its foundations fastened?
Or who laid its cornerstone,
7 When the morning stars sang together,
And all the sons of God shouted for joy?
Job 38:4-7


Angels are spirits and have God as their Father, and creator.

9 Furthermore, we have had human fathers who corrected us, and we paid them respect. Shall we not much more readily be in subjection to the Father of spirits and live? Hebrews 12:9


And of the angels He says: “Who makes His angels spirits and His ministers a flame of fire. Hebrews 1:7




JLB

 

[smaller]

No Scripture again, in the face of the scriptures I provided to validate my belief.

There is scripture and then there is what bounces around in peoples heads claiming to be scripture. Obviously those two matters diverge greatly in your mind.

Could you discuss the scriptures I provided, that show the sons of God is a reference to angels.

They show no such things as YOU think you hear. What you hear actually exists nowhere in the scriptures themselves.

Angels are created by God and are called sons of God.

No they are not. It is only your mind that is inserting that claim.

...for they are equal to the angels and are sons of God,

I'd suggest you should see the "they" as the sons of God and not the angels. GET IT? "They" can be like/equal to angels in the ways specified therein. "They" are the sons of God. Yet that does not make the ANGELS "THEY."

It is only in your mind that happened. It didn't happen in writing.

 

[JLB]

There is scripture and then there is what bounces around in peoples heads claiming to be scripture. Obviously those two matters diverge greatly in your mind.

The following scriptures, are not bouncing around in my head, but come from the Bible, and have the proper Chapter and verse.

Could you discuss the scriptures I provided, that show the sons of God is a reference to angels.

Angels are created by God and are called sons of God.

...for they are equal to the angels and are sons of God,

35 But those who are counted worthy to attain that age, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry nor are given in marriage; 36 nor can they die anymore, for they are equal to the angels and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection.
Luke 20:35-36


“Where were you when I laid the foundations of the earth?
Tell Me, if you have understanding.
5 Who determined its measurements?
Surely you know!
Or who stretched the line upon it?
6 To what were its foundations fastened?
Or who laid its cornerstone,
7 When the morning stars sang together,
And all the sons of God shouted for joy?
Job 38:4-7


Angels are spirits and have God as their Father, and creator.

9 Furthermore, we have had human fathers who corrected us, and we paid them respect. Shall we not much more readily be in subjection to the Father of spirits and live? Hebrews 12:9


And of the angels He says: “Who makes His angels spirits and His ministers a flame of fire. Hebrews 1:7




JLB

 

[JLB]

Angels are created by God and are called sons of God.

...for they are equal to the angels and are sons of God,

35 But those who are counted worthy to attain that age, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry nor are given in marriage; 36 nor can they die anymore, for they are equal to the angels and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection.
Luke 20:35-36


“Where were you when I laid the foundations of the earth?
Tell Me, if you have understanding.
5 Who determined its measurements?
Surely you know!
Or who stretched the line upon it?
6 To what were its foundations fastened?
Or who laid its cornerstone,
7 When the morning stars sang together,
And all the sons of God shouted for joy?
Job 38:4-7


Angels are spirits and have God as their Father, and creator.

9 Furthermore, we have had human fathers who corrected us, and we paid them respect. Shall we not much more readily be in subjection to the Father of spirits and live? Hebrews 12:9


And of the angels He says: “Who makes His angels spirits and His ministers a flame of fire. Hebrews 1:7

JLB said:
Angels are created by God and are called sons of God.

Smaller said:
No they are not. It is only your mind that is inserting that claim.

Who created angels if not God?




JLB

 

[JLB]

I'd suggest you should see the "they" as the sons of God and not the angels. GET IT? "They" can be like/equal to angels in the ways specified therein. "They" are the sons of God. Yet that does not make the ANGELS "THEY."

It is only in your mind that happened. It didn't happen in writing.

In the following verse's, who are the "sons of God" referring to; angels or humans?


Again there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan came also among them to present himself before the Lord. 2 And the Lord said to Satan, “From where do you come?”

Satan answered the Lord and said, “From going to and fro on the earth, and from walking back and forth on it.”

3 Then the Lord said to Satan, “Have you considered My servant Job, that there is none like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man, one who fears God and shuns evil? And still he holds fast to his integrity, although you incited Me against him, to destroy him without cause.” Job 2:1-3


and again


“Where were you when I laid the foundations of the earth?
Tell Me, if you have understanding.
5 Who determined its measurements?
Surely you know!
Or who stretched the line upon it?
6 To what were its foundations fastened?
Or who laid its cornerstone,
7 When the morning stars sang together,
And all the sons of God shouted for joy?
Job 38:4-7


Who were these "sons of God", who were around when the Lord laid the foundations of the earth?

Human being's or angelic beings?



JLB

 

[smaller]

In the following verse's, who are the "sons of God" referring to; angels or humans?


Again there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan came also among them to present himself before the Lord. 2 And the Lord said to Satan, “From where do you come?”

Satan answered the Lord and said, “From going to and fro on the earth, and from walking back and forth on it.”

3 Then the Lord said to Satan, “Have you considered My servant Job, that there is none like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man, one who fears God and shuns evil? And still he holds fast to his integrity, although you incited Me against him, to destroy him without cause.” Job 2:1-3


and again


“Where were you when I laid the foundations of the earth?
Tell Me, if you have understanding.
5 Who determined its measurements?
Surely you know!
Or who stretched the line upon it?
6 To what were its foundations fastened?
Or who laid its cornerstone,
7 When the morning stars sang together,
And all the sons of God shouted for joy?
Job 38:4-7


Who were these "sons of God", who were around when the Lord laid the foundations of the earth?

Human being's or angelic beings?

JLB

There is exactly a big fat ZERO evidence anywhere in the citings above that result in your sights of God being the Father of Satan/Lucifer or anti-Christ spirits and devils. None. Nada. Zilch.

You've inserted stuff from your own mind that doesn't exist in writing, as prior noted, at length.

I'd suggest you got waylaid by the reality of Mark 4:15.

 

[JLB]

There is exactly a big fat ZERO evidence anywhere in the citings above that result in your sights of God being the Father of Satan/Lucifer or anti-Christ spirits and devils. None. Nada. Zilch.

Another post with no scripture, by only opinion.


Angels are created by God and are called sons of God.

...for they are equal to the angels and are sons of God,

35 But those who are counted worthy to attain that age, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry nor are given in marriage; 36 nor can they die anymore, for they are equal to the angels and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection.
Luke 20:35-36


“Where were you when I laid the foundations of the earth?
Tell Me, if you have understanding.
5 Who determined its measurements?
Surely you know!
Or who stretched the line upon it?
6 To what were its foundations fastened?
Or who laid its cornerstone,
7 When the morning stars sang together,
And all the sons of God shouted for joy?
Job 38:4-7


Angels are spirits and have God as their Father, and creator.

9 Furthermore, we have had human fathers who corrected us, and we paid them respect. Shall we not much more readily be in subjection to the Father of spirits and live? Hebrews 12:9


And of the angels He says: “Who makes His angels spirits and His ministers a flame of fire. Hebrews 1:7




JLB

 

[Chopper]

Chopper, Paul was very clear that sin dwelled in his flesh, and evil was present with him. Romans 7:17-21. Can you spell garbage can?

YET Paul had the Spirit of Christ in him.

I'd suggest a closer look at that sugar spin story.

The notion that believers have to make themselves "sinless" in order to have the Spirit of Christ in them is a FALSE NOTION that a lot of christians are sold. It's a basic LIE. As is the notion that the spirit of disobedience can not be in the flesh IF the Holy Spirit is within a persons heart. The fact is both not only can be simultaneously present, but ARE simultaneously present.

Paul termed himself the chief of sinners after salvation. 1 Tim. 1:15

IF we see the fact that Paul was tempted, INTERNALLY, in his mind, by the tempter, Satan, and SAW THAT as a fact Paul was not looking at only himself in the equations of sin, but was also pointing to the tempter, Satan's operations in the flesh via the spirit of disobedience. That's HOW Paul derived his state as "chief of sinners." Because Paul was dealing with the chief of sinners, Satan, in his temptations.

Sin is not a matter of only man. Satan and his messengers ARE involved. And yes, sin is of the devil. 1 John 3:8.

Can you spell garbage can?

Ha ha. You picked up on that did you? That's an old Baptist saying that means, "don't grieve the Holy Spirit". There are some Christians that are very "loose" in their spiritual walk, and they expect all the blessings that solid serious Believers receive. Now, that can be argued, and you probably will. It's just a cute saying that most people get and chuckle with a "amen".

 

[Chopper]

No, Not that early.

It was 1996.


He laid hands on me a Lakewood, when John Osteen was still there.



JLB

1996, Ok, I thought it was earlier. He was a great Servant of Christ Jesus.

 

[JLB]

I'd suggest you got waylaid by the reality of Mark 4:15.

What reality are you referring to, your post's are so vague, and have no real content or scripture.


The reality of Mark 4:14 is that Satan is able to steal the Gospel message from "some", but not all unbelievers.

13 And He said to them, “Do you not understand this parable? How then will you understand all the parables? 14 The sower sows the word. 15 And these are the ones by the wayside where the word is sown. When they hear, Satan comes immediately and takes away the word that was sown in their hearts. 16 These likewise are the ones sown on stony ground who, when they hear the word, immediately receive it with gladness;17 and they have no root in themselves, and so endure only for a time. Afterward, when tribulation or persecution arises for the word’s sake, immediately they stumble. 18 Now these are the ones sown among thorns; they are the ones who hear the word, 19 and the cares of this world, the deceitfulness of riches, and the desires for other things entering in choke the word, and it becomes unfruitful. 20 But these are the ones sown on good ground, those who hear the word, accept it, and bear fruit: some thirtyfold, some sixty, and some a hundred.” Mark 4:13-20


If you believe that Satan can "take away" the Gospel message from believers, who have a good and noble heart, then please post the scripture for this belief.


Nothing in Mark 4:15 about Satan dwelling in our flesh.





JLB

 

[smaller]

What reality are you referring to, your post's are so vague, and have no real content or scripture.

They only seem that way to you because you have a hard time with understanding the topic matters. I'm a patient guy. Ain't giving up on you.

The reality of Mark 4:14 is that Satan is able to steal the Gospel message from "some", but not all unbelievers.

We've done this several times now and will do it several more times before you'll hopefully 'get it.'

Every Word of God in Christ is alive and active. Heb. 4:12. That means also, Mark 4:15 is alive and active. That also means, just as Jesus Said, EVERY WORD of God applies to us. Matt. 4:4, Luke 4:4.

Now, just listen to your own claims, and you should see that you are at odds with Jesus. I don't blame you because I KNOW Mark 4:15 is a reality and that reality is being shown to YOU, as Gods child, but the "STEALING PARTY" is in fact resisting.

 

[Chopper]

This is where I disagree with you JLB. Look again at Mark 4:15 again....Mark 4:11 "And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God" Notice please that this is all about the Kingdom of God. Certainly you must know that the subject of the Kingdom encompasses much theology beyond the Gospel to unbelievers.

Also, please note that this verse....Mar 4:14 The sower soweth the word....We believe that the "Sower" is God Himself, not an Evangelist. Also, what is sowed is the Word, there is no mention of the Gospel.

Mark 4:14 "The sower soweth the word.
4:15 And these are they by the way side, where the word is sown; but when they have heard, Satan cometh immediately, and taketh away the word that was sown in their hearts."

It is my feeling that you isolate this text to mean only the Gospel presentation to the unsaved, only to argue with smaller and me. Actually, the text is saying that the Word of God is presented to someone and immediately Satan comes and takes away the Word, he robs the person of God's Word.

 

[Douglas Summers]

Satan entered Judas, which means he wasn't already present in Judas' flesh.

The evil present with Paul was sin, not Satan.

20 Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.
21 I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good. 22 For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man. 23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. Romans 7:20-23



JLB

Good Scripture lesson JLB.

 

[JLB]

This is where I disagree with you JLB. Look again at Mark 4:15 again....Mark 4:11 "And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God" Notice please that this is all about the Kingdom of God. Certainly you must know that the subject of the Kingdom encompasses much theology beyond the Gospel to unbelievers.

Sorry, old friend, as mush as I love you, I have to respectfully disagree with you.

I would have never expected such a response from you.

But when He was alone, those around Him with the twelve asked Him about the parable. 11 And He said to them, “To you it has been given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God; but to those who are outside, all things come in parables, Mark 4:10-11

• The Teacher was teaching His disciples the mystery of the Kingdom in parables, so that they would know, without those who were "outside" knowing, in which they would teach "their disciples one day, all the things that Jesus, The Teacher was teaching them.

12 so that
‘Seeing they may see and not perceive,
And hearing they may hear and not understand;
Lest they should turn,
And their sins be forgiven them.’”
Mark 4:12

• Here is where Jesus explains the parable of the Sower:

13 And He said to them, “Do you not understand this parable? How then will you understand all the parables? 14 The sower sows the word. 15 And these are the ones by the wayside where the word is sown. When they hear, Satan comes immediately and takes away the word that was sown in their hearts. 16 These likewise are the ones sown on stony ground who, when they hear the word, immediately receive it with gladness;17 and they have no root in themselves, and so endure only for a time. Afterward, when tribulation or persecution arises for the word’s sake, immediately they stumble. 18 Now these are the ones sown among thorns; they are the ones who hear the word, 19 and the cares of this world, the deceitfulness of riches, and the desires for other things entering in choke the word, and it becomes unfruitful. 20 But these are the ones sown on good ground, those who hear the word, accept it, and bear fruit: some thirtyfold, some sixty, and some a hundred.” Mark 4:13-20


In this parable,Jesus is teaching about the Gospel Message, and those who will believe and be saved, and those who will not.


Here it is from Luke: lest they should believe and be saved.


11 “Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God. 12 Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. 14 Now the ones that fell among thorns are those who, when they have heard, go out and are choked with cares, riches, and pleasures of life, and bring no fruit to maturity. 15 But the ones that fell on the good ground are those who, having heard the word with a noble and good heart, keep it and bear fruit with patience. Luke 8:11-15


There is no other word or message, through which men believe and are saved.


You are the first person in my life that has tried to convince me that the parable of the Sower is not referring to the Gospel Message.




JLB

 

[Chopper]

Sorry, old friend, as mush as I love you, I have to respectfully disagree with you.

I would have never expected such a response from you.

But when He was alone, those around Him with the twelve asked Him about the parable. 11 And He said to them, “To you it has been given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God; but to those who are outside, all things come in parables, Mark 4:10-11

• The Teacher was teaching His disciples the mystery of the Kingdom in parables, so that they would know, without those who were "outside" knowing, in which they would teach "their disciples one day, all the things that Jesus, The Teacher was teaching them.

12 so that
‘Seeing they may see and not perceive,
And hearing they may hear and not understand;
Lest they should turn,
And their sins be forgiven them.’”
Mark 4:12

• Here is where Jesus explains the parable of the Sower:

13 And He said to them, “Do you not understand this parable? How then will you understand all the parables? 14 The sower sows the word. 15 And these are the ones by the wayside where the word is sown. When they hear, Satan comes immediately and takes away the word that was sown in their hearts. 16 These likewise are the ones sown on stony ground who, when they hear the word, immediately receive it with gladness;17 and they have no root in themselves, and so endure only for a time. Afterward, when tribulation or persecution arises for the word’s sake, immediately they stumble. 18 Now these are the ones sown among thorns; they are the ones who hear the word, 19 and the cares of this world, the deceitfulness of riches, and the desires for other things entering in choke the word, and it becomes unfruitful. 20 But these are the ones sown on good ground, those who hear the word, accept it, and bear fruit: some thirtyfold, some sixty, and some a hundred.” Mark 4:13-20


In this parable,Jesus is teaching about the Gospel Message, and those who will believe and be saved, and those who will not.


Here it is from Luke: lest they should believe and be saved.


11 “Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God. 12 Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. 14 Now the ones that fell among thorns are those who, when they have heard, go out and are choked with cares, riches, and pleasures of life, and bring no fruit to maturity. 15 But the ones that fell on the good ground are those who, having heard the word with a noble and good heart, keep it and bear fruit with patience. Luke 8:11-15


There is no other word or message, through which men believe and are saved.


You are the first person in my life that has tried to convince me that the parable of the Sower is not referring to the Gospel Message.




JLB

O please my friend. I've never omitted the Gospel from Mark 4:15. I have always said that it's the Word of God. The Word of God would primarily (I probably haven't used that clear a statement) include the Gospel to the unsaved, but applies to the spectrum of God's Word. I have witnessed Believers in Christ Jesus, who hear God's Word, and then don't remember what was told them. That was no bad memory, Satan robbed the Word from entering their heart.

So many Preachers of the whole counsel of God's Word, work so hard in preparation of a life changing message from God's Word, deliver it in the power of the Holy Spirit, and even the next day, ask someone what he taught/preached, and they can't recall. That my friend is what I see in Mark 4:15.

I believe that Satan's great strategy, according to Mark 4:15 is to deceive our minds thru "deceitful desires". Please look at Ephesians 4:22....
Ephesians 4:22 "to put off your old self, which belongs to your former manner of life and is corrupt through deceitful desires,
4:23 and to be renewed in the spirit of your minds."

If Satan is continually able to call back to our minds the pleasure of sin that we used to experience as unsaved, he will continually rob us of the Word of God that is supposed to "renew our minds".

What smaller and I are simply saying, is that somehow, Satan's influence is resident in us. He (Satan) is not resident in us, his influence is in us. And he can fire up our sinful lust of the flesh, to sin, and rob us of life changing Words, Commands etc. from even the Holy Spirit, whereby we become unprofitable to what the Word wanted to accomplish in our lives thru the renewal of our minds thru good old fashioned Bible study.

 

[JLB]

O please my friend. I've never omitted the Gospel from Mark 4:15. I have always said that it's the Word of God. The Word of God would primarily (I probably haven't used that clear a statement) include the Gospel to the unsaved, but applies to the spectrum of God's Word.

The clear cut context of the parable of the Sower is the Gospel Message, whether found in Mark, Matthew or Luke.


Believe and be saved is a reference to the Gospel message, not some other message or word of God.



JLB

 

[JLB]

So many Preachers of the whole counsel of God's Word, work so hard in preparation of a life changing message from God's Word, deliver it in the power of the Holy Spirit, and even the next day, ask someone what he taught/preached, and they can't recall. That my friend is what I see in Mark 4:15.

Or maybe they just didn't take notes.


JLB

 

[JLB]

I believe that Satan's great strategy, according to Mark 4:15 is to deceive our minds thru "deceitful desires".

That would be Mark 4:18-19

18 Now these are the ones sown among thorns; they are the ones who hear the word, 19 and the cares of this world, the deceitfulness of riches, and the desires for other things entering in choke the word, and it becomes unfruitful. Mark 4:18-19

This lustful desires comes from own own flesh, in which sin dwells.


James explains -

14 But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed. 15 Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death. James 1:14-15


There is sin, that is to say, the law of sin in our flesh, which produces a desire to gratify itself.

When a person dwells on this desire for a period of time, it conceives and the person does the sin he is thinking and meditating about.

When a person begins to practice this sin as a lifestyle, then that sin when mature, will bring for eternal death for that individual if not repented of, and cleansed from their life.


If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 1 John 1:9



JLB

 

[JLB]

If Satan is continually able to call back to our minds the pleasure of sin that we used to experience as unsaved, he will continually rob us of the Word of God that is supposed to "renew our minds".

The renewing of the mind is more than just reading the bible.

If that were the case, then the Pharisee named Saul would have had a renewed mind and never persecuted the Church.


Renewing of the mind does indeed include the scriptures, no doubt about it.


If you were to restore or renew an old house, you would go in and start painting.


First we would remove all the trash, and sweep it out and inspect for signs of termites or rotting in the walls, or foundation supports.


Most likely we would tear out old sheet rock, and rotting trim, or cabinets.


After some surface restoration is done with some sheet rock removed, we may discover that some studs in the walls are rotting and need to be replaced.


The point is, if we just expect people to start understanding scripture in the condition they are in when they are first saved, then we ourselves have missed the mark, and we ourselves probably have been taught incorrectly.


Maybe a thread dedicated to the renewing of the mind and what the scriptures say about this might be a good study.

I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that you present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable to God, which is your reasonable service. 2 And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God. Romans 12:1-2


The Key to the renewing of the mind starts with this phrase: that you present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable to God.





JLB