The Work of Repentance Versus Faith Only

[Jethro Bodine]

So returning the horse is a deed, a work that is a necessary deed or else one is not repentant of his thief and will be lost.

From a purely theoretical point of view, the horse must be returned, not to make the person saved, but to validate their faith in Christ's blood as genuine and able to save.


Faith in Christ's blood for the forgiveness of sin>>>>Repentance (change of heart and mind about sin)>>>>Righteous behavior

The repentance and the righteous behavior don't secure forgiveness in and of themselves. That is impossible. They are the expected result of a genuine faith and trust in God's promise to forgive sin through the sacrifice of Christ.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

From a purely theoretical point of view, the horse must be returned, not to make the person saved, but to validate their faith in Christ's blood as genuine and able to save.


Faith in Christ's blood for the forgiveness of sin>>>>Repentance (change of heart and mind about sin)>>>>Righteous behavior

The repentance and the righteous behavior don't secure forgiveness in and of themselves. That is impossible. They are the expected result of a genuine faith and trust in God's promise to forgive sin through the sacrifice of Christ.

So if the horse is not returned then that invalidates their faith and they are lost. So a '"valid" faith requires the work of returning the stolen horse.

Yet the purpose of repentance is not to "validate" but save. After Simon sinned by trying to buy the power of the Holy Ghost, Acts 8, he was told by Peter "Thy money perish with thee, because thou hast thought that the gift of God may be purchased with money. Thou hast neither part nor lot in this matter: for thy heart is not right in the sight of God. Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray God, if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee."

Simon did not steal anything so he had nothing to return, yet he still had to repent from his wickedness he did in order to be forgiven and return to a saved, right standing with God.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

If one says they are saved because they did the work of repentance , then they claim salvation by their works, which is against scripture !

You are trying to say one is saved while still in his unremitted, unforgiven sins, yet the bible does not teach such an idea.

 

[savedbygrace57]

You are trying to say one is saved while still in his unremitted, unforgiven sins, yet the bible does not teach such an idea.

I am saying, if one says they are saved because they repented, which is something they did, then they are claiming salvation by works, which is against scripture. Eph 2:8-9

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

To say that repentance, restitution or reparation are the same, or even in similar venue to God's salvation on us, is to create a false dichotomy. They are not the same.

Salvation is from God, to those he will save. Those whom He chooses to save will be saved, and anyone who seeks Him can find Him, and receive salvation, but not all are saved. Either they don't seek him, they are left in their own condition, or they reject Him.

All are guilty, but those saved, are saved from the judgment of God. The judgment due all men for their sins, saved or not, but the saved are saved by GRACE, which is to say they are forgiven. That they are forgiven means they owe nothing because the payment has already been made for them. It is a cost they can not afford anyway. We do not have what it takes to pay the price. That's the point of Grace and forgiveness, and we are made new in that, and that alone, not of what we do.

However, there are many who do not see the Gospel in this way, and believe it to be a dutiful effort on the part of the one to be saved, and not a gift. They will say that God helps the saved to be saved, or maintain their salvation. What does that require? The bible says 100% perfection. Those following this understanding will repent again and again and again for rebirth, not so much out of love for God, but rather fear of His judgment against them. Their faith lies manly in their own effort to be perfect like Christ. 100% rather than in the saving work of Jesus Christ, and they will forever attempt to pay off a debt they can not afford.

That's the difference between imputed righteousness, which the bible speaks of, and this notion of infused righteousness which there is no mention of in the bible.

I am not saying the repentance is the same as restitution/reparation but that repentance requires restitution/reparations. How can one say they have truly repented if they still have possession of a horse he has stolen and intends to keep the stolen horse? If it is acceptable to keep the stolen horse then there was nothing wrong with stealing the horse.


I agree that salvation is from God and one has to do the work in seeking God to find him and repentance is part of that seeking God. One will never find God by doing nothing.

I agree that those that are saved wil be saved by grace NOT BY GRACE ALONE. God's grace is conditional upon one SEEKING Him as we both agree that one must seek God to find Him. Therefore salvation requires BOTH God's grace our our seeking God in faith....Eph 2:8 for by grace are ye saved through faith...


I agree that savlation is a free gift, but that does not mean free gifts cannot come with conditions that must be met. Meeting those condtions do not earn the free gift but are necessary to receive the free gift...

Jn 6:27 "Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed."

Jesus said to WORK for everlasting life that He GIVES. He gives it so it is free but one must work, meet the condition of belief He has put upon that free gift. Repentance is another condition put upon the free gift.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

I am saying, if one says they are saved because they repented, which is something they did, then they are claiming salvation by works, which is against scripture. Eph 2:8-9

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

First, you did not show that one can still be saved while still lost in his unrepented, unforgiven sins.

Secondly, some 25-30 years later the church at Ephesus fell away, Rev 2. Christ told them they had fallen ,left their first love and threaten them to repent or else He would remove their candlstick (church), Rev 1:20. If they did not repent, then they would not longer be acknolwdged by Christ as His church, i.e., they would become lost.

Lastly, prove "not of works" in Eph 2:9 includes repentance considering what Paul said in Acts 26:20 or Peter in Acts 2:38.

 

[WIP]

I'm getting a headache. :eeeekkk

Just poking a little fun. Sometimes this theology stuff can go 'round and 'round and 'round...

 

[Danus]

I am not saying the repentance is the same as restitution/reparation but that repentance requires restitution/reparations. How can one say they have truly repented if they still have possession of a horse he has stolen and intends to keep the stolen horse? If it is acceptable to keep the stolen horse then there was nothing wrong with stealing the horse.


I agree that salvation is from God and one has to do the work in seeking God to find him and repentance is part of that seeking God. One will never find God by doing nothing.

I agree that those that are saved wil be saved by grace NOT BY GRACE ALONE. God's grace is conditional upon one SEEKING Him as we both agree that one must seek God to find Him. Therefore salvation requires BOTH God's grace our our seeking God in faith....Eph 2:8 for by grace are ye saved through faith...


I agree that savlation is a free gift, but that does not mean free gifts cannot come with conditions that must be met. Meeting those condtions do not earn the free gift but are necessary to receive the free gift...

Jn 6:27 "Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed."

Jesus said to WORK for everlasting life that He GIVES. He gives it so it is free but one must work, meet the condition of belief He has put upon that free gift. Repentance is another condition put upon the free gift.

Sometimes God finds people and they do virtually nothing to seek him for say. That's at his will.

In any case you may like this old saying, that says; "Salvation is free, but it will cost you your life." In this way, we do pay for our repentance. We do give up something for our salvation; we give up our own will, for His. That's all we can do, but that's every bit of the cost we can pay.

 

[dadof10]

"Repentance theology" has the same issue that "water baptism" theology has ,which is to say...
That both have concluded wrongly that salavation is "Jesus/Cross + something you do = salvation.
And the fact is, nothing but your faith the shed blood of Jesus, his death and his resurrection, can purge, remit, and forgive, your sins.
"without the shedding of blood there is no remission", there is no pardon, no justification, = no forgiveness.

So, here is what destroyed once and for all "water baptism" salvation heresy, ...."repentance salvation" theology, and any other type of WORKS TO BE SAVED salvation attempt that Paul wrote the book of Galatians to expose as false and "cursed".

There was a dying thief on a cross.
According to the words of Jesus, this thief ended up with Christ.
This thief was not water baptised, and he restored nothing he stole after he believed on the Lord.
And he was a "thief", unless the bible made a mistake.
He restored nothing he stole after he trusted Christ, and he was not water baptised after they broke his legs and he died.
He then ended up with Jesus, unless the bible is lying.
I wouldn't count on that.

So, from this, we discover that all theology that states that a death bed conversion is not possible, is false, and all theology which claims you cant be saved without water baptism or that water baptism saves you...is found to be false.....entirely false.

Deathbed conversion IS possible, it's just not the normative means of salvation. The problem is, the "faith alone" crowd sees it as such. The rich, young man asked Jesus "what must I do to gain eternal life?" Jesus' answer was "keep the commandments". This is the difference between a person minutes from death (the Thief), and a person who ostensibly has years in front of him. The "faith alone" crowd wrongly points to the Thief as the STANDARD for salvation, not taking into consideration his unique situation.

So, if you are trusting in anything but Christ alone through your faith to be saved, you are caught up in a cult theology, a false theology, and i hope you can see the light and escape asap.

Now, if you want to hear a clever liar lie openly, then just listen to one try to explain why YOU have to be water baptised to be saved, while the thief on the Cross didnt have to do it.
Talk about a fog of lies.
You should hear some of the stuff they will tell you to try to dodge, duck, ignore, and deny, the truth.

Wow. Talk about poisoning the well.

I don't have to duck or dodge (and certainly not lie). Salvation by faith alone is possible, just not normative. I have heard MANY creative interpretations by the "faith alone" people of "baptism, which now saves you" and Jesus telling the rich, young man that to inherit eternal life he must keep the commandments. No lies, though. The reason I believe that baptism and keeping the commandments are NECESSARY for salvation is because the Bible says so. The reason I don't believe in salvation by "faith alone" is NORMATIVE is because the Bible doesn't say it is.

 

[savedbygrace57]

First, you did not show that one can still be saved while still lost in his
unrepented

,

Thats easy, if Christ has died for ones sins, they cannot be condemned Rom 8:33-34

33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

 

[Kidron]

So you are essentially saying one can be a thief and still enter the kingdom of heaven 1 Cor 6:9,10, correct?

Im saying what God said.
If you take his Son, he will take you.
bottom line.
This is called "Salvation".
If you want to argue against the fact that its free, that its given to the ungodly, and that its without the law, then your argument is against the Grace of God, and not with me.

So, to be perfectly crystal clear.
When you are saved, this means that all your sins are purged.
They are pardoned.
They are gone.
This means the ones you personally will do today, tomorrow, and if you live, the ones you will do the very day you die.

Your sins are gone if you are a Christian, they have ALL been paid for by the death of Christ.
He is the final payment for your sins.
There is no other that God offers.


So, let me ask the reader a question.

what sin of yours can you ever commit, that the blood of Jesus and the death and resurrection of Jesus hasn't already covered?



K

 

[Danus]

Deathbed conversion IS possible, it's just not the normative means of salvation. The problem is, the "faith alone" crowd sees it as such.

A couple of references have been made on this thread about the "faith alone crowd"
I think it's important to define that crowd.

These days we have another group of people who are part of a pop-Christianity group of "said believers" who tout faith also. The word of Faith movement. This is a group that doe not really talk about salvation at all, but they do talk about faith, and having faith and such.

It's important that we don't get Reformed Theology mixed up with this group in thoughts and understandings.

Several threads have been created, over the years, that have attempted to deal with this subject matter of repentance and salvation. Most of them deteriorate into misunderstandings of the positions held in theological doctrines.

The bottom line to this subject matter can be found within two terms of righteousness; Imputed and Infused. I would urge anyone reading this to look those terms up.

I think it's very easy and understandable for people to read the bible and focus on the behavior of the Christian, or of man kind, when it comes to salvation. The bible is very descriptive about such things, but it is also very clear about grace and forgiveness and living a life of faith in Christ.

What I have found is that many Christians have a hard time reconciling the two.

 

[Elijah674]

A couple of references have been made on this thread about the "faith alone crowd"
I think it's important to define that crowd.

These days we have another group of people who are part of a pop-Christianity group of "said believers" who tout faith also. The word of Faith movement. This is a group that doe not really talk about salvation at all, but they do talk about faith, and having faith and such.

It's important that we don't get Reformed Theology mixed up with this group in thoughts and understandings.

Several threads have been created, over the years, that have attempted to deal with this subject matter of repentance and salvation. Most of them deteriorate into misunderstandings of the positions held in theological doctrines.

The bottom line to this subject matter can be found within two terms of righteousness; Imputed and Infused. I would urge anyone reading this to look those terms up.

I think it's very easy and understandable for people to read the bible and focus on the behavior of the Christian, or of man kind, when it comes to salvation. The bible is very descriptive about such things, but it is also very clear about grace and forgiveness and living a life of faith in Christ.

What I have found is that many Christians have a hard time reconciling the two.

You say... '' A couple of references have been made on this thread about the "faith alone crowd
I think it's important to define that crowd. "

Hi, I agree, (except for the couple word!) it is Top Priority to do so. Eze. 9 + Isa. 58:1-2 along with Isa. 59:1-2 + many other places. (Eze. 9 finds that these ones are the only ones saved)

And with that being the REQUIRED WORK, God Himself has many others TESTS to locate the devil's false doctrines of the Rev. 17:1-5 ones. This teaching is just one of many such false ones.

And if any are inclined to read these reams upon reams of false stuff & get confussed? All they need to do is EXAMINE other of satan's teaching such as immortal maggots in an eternal burning hell somewhere in the center of the earth as we speak, + much more, and then TOSS ALL OF THE GARBAGE OUT AS A WHOLE & 'QUICKLY' as God REQUIRES! James 2:10, Rev. 18:4!

--Elijah

 

[rrowell]

"Repentance theology" has the same issue that "water baptism" theology has ,which is to say...
That both have concluded wrongly that salavation is "Jesus/Cross + something you do = salvation.
And the fact is, nothing but your faith the shed blood of Jesus, his death and his resurrection, can purge, remit, and forgive, your sins.

"without the shedding of blood there is no remission", there is no pardon, no justification, = no forgiveness.

So, here is what destroyed once and for all "water baptism" salvation heresy, ...."repentance salvation" theology, and any other type of WORKS TO BE SAVED salvation attempt that Paul wrote the book of Galatians to expose as false and "cursed".K

Can you back this up with scripture?, Peter begs to differ:

1 Peter 3:20-21
Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water. The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

There was a dying thief on a cross.
According to the words of Jesus, this thief ended up with Christ.
This thief was not water baptised, and he restored nothing he stole after he believed on the Lord.
And he was a "thief", unless the bible made a mistake.
He restored nothing he stole after he trusted Christ, and he was not water baptised after they broke his legs and he died.
He then ended up with Jesus, unless the bible is lying.
I wouldn't count on that.K

Jesus was still alive, the thief "died" under the old law, for the new law to be in effect there must be the death of the testator! :

Hebrews 9:14-18
How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God? And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance. For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator. For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth. Whereupon neither the first testament was dedicated without blood.

So, from this, we discover that all theology that states that a death bed conversion is not possible, is false, and all theology which claims you cant be saved without water baptism or that water baptism saves you...is found to be false.....entirely false.K

You need to read your bible :

John 3:4-5
Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born? Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

So, if you are trusting in anything but Christ alone through your faith to be saved, you are caught up in a cult theology, a false theology, and i hope you can see the light and escape asap.

Now, if you want to hear a clever liar lie openly, then just listen to one try to explain why YOU have to be water baptised to be saved, while the thief on the Cross didnt have to do it.
Talk about a fog of lies.
You should hear some of the stuff they will tell you to try to dodge, duck, ignore, and deny, the truth.K

If you believe you can be save by faith alone, you have not read your bible:

James 2:17-22
Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?






K[/QUOTE]

 

[rrowell]

All sins may not cause physical or monetary damage to another so all sins may not require restitution/reparation. I am dealing with sins such as theft that would require restitution/reparation. So can you keep a stolen horse and say you have truly repented or must you do the work or returning the stolen horse or else be lost because of theft, 1 Cor 6:9,10?

You need to do what ever it takes to resolve any ought you may have caused to anyone, before you can ask for forgiveness :

Matthew 5:23-24
Therefore if thou bring thy gift to the altar, and there rememberest that thy brother hath ought against thee; Leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way; first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift.

 

[dadof10]

A couple of references have been made on this thread about the "faith alone crowd"
I think it's important to define that crowd.

These days we have another group of people who are part of a pop-Christianity group of "said believers" who tout faith also. The word of Faith movement. This is a group that doe not really talk about salvation at all, but they do talk about faith, and having faith and such.

It's important that we don't get Reformed Theology mixed up with this group in thoughts and understandings.

Several threads have been created, over the years, that have attempted to deal with this subject matter of repentance and salvation. Most of them deteriorate into misunderstandings of the positions held in theological doctrines.

The bottom line to this subject matter can be found within two terms of righteousness; Imputed and Infused. I would urge anyone reading this to look those terms up.

I think it's very easy and understandable for people to read the bible and focus on the behavior of the Christian, or of man kind, when it comes to salvation. The bible is very descriptive about such things, but it is also very clear about grace and forgiveness and living a life of faith in Christ.

What I have found is that many Christians have a hard time reconciling the two.

Didn't Reformed Theology coin the term "Grace alone through faith alone"? I understand the differences between Fundamentalists and Calvinists as far as faith NEEDING to be a "saving" faith as opposed to a "said" faith, but where the rubber meets the road, in both cases, it is STILL faith alone that saves, not ANY works. Your definition of "faith" may be different than the Fundamentalist, but it is still only faith that saves.

 

[rrowell]

I am not saying the repentance is the same as restitution/reparation but that repentance requires restitution/reparations. How can one say they have truly repented if they still have possession of a horse he has stolen and intends to keep the stolen horse? If it is acceptable to keep the stolen horse then there was nothing wrong with stealing the horse.

You are exactly right here, Repentance means to turn away from sin, you sin when you took the horse, to keep the horse, is to keep sinning, to keep sinning is not to turn away from the sin, hence there has been no repentance...

 

[rrowell]

So, to be perfectly crystal clear.
When you are saved, this means that all your sins are purged.
They are pardoned.
They are gone.
This means the ones you personally will do today, tomorrow, and if you live, the ones you will do the very day you die.

Your sins are gone if you are a Christian, they have ALL been paid for by the death of Christ.
He is the final payment for your sins.
There is no other that God offers.


So, let me ask the reader a question.

what sin of yours can you ever commit, that the blood of Jesus and the death and resurrection of Jesus hasn't already covered?



K

Then explain to me what peter is telling us here:

2 Peter 2:21
For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.

Kind of blows a hole in your theory doesn't it? Looks like Peter just told us once saved not always saved...

 

[Jethro Bodine]

You need to do what ever it takes to resolve any ought you may have caused to anyone, before you can ask for forgiveness :

Not even remotely true.

It is impossible to pay for our sin with our own righteous behavior. Righteous behavior has no power to redeem a person. Only the blood of Christ can do that.

Righteous behavior flows from the new creation. The new creation we became when our sin guilt was totally and forever removed when we placed our trust in the blood of Christ to do that. The blood of Christ does that (remove sin) all by itself.

Matthew 5:23-24
Therefore if thou bring thy gift to the altar, and there rememberest that thy brother hath ought against thee; Leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way; first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift.

This is for those who already belong to God through the forgiveness of their own sins.

If you show contempt for the forgiveness you have received for your sins by not giving the same grace of forgiveness you received to others, your service and worship will not be accepted. Obedience is better than sacrifice.

“Does the LORD delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices as much as in obeying the LORD? To obey is better than sacrifice, and to heed is better than the fat of rams." (1 Samuel 15:22 NIV)

But too many people in the church think the sacrifice of their service and worship somehow makes up for their disobedience. Nothing could be further from the truth. There is not a shred of truth to that.

 

[farouk]

Jethro: Good post. This is all part of the truth of substitution, Christ dying for our sins according to the Scriptures.