The Work of Repentance Versus Faith Only

[Ernest T. Bass]

Sometimes God finds people and they do virtually nothing to seek him for say. That's at his will.

In any case you may like this old saying, that says; "Salvation is free, but it will cost you your life." In this way, we do pay for our repentance. We do give up something for our salvation; we give up our own will, for His. That's all we can do, but that's every bit of the cost we can pay.

Isa 55:6 "Seek ye the LORD while he may be found, call ye upon him while he is near:"

It is man's responsibility to seek out God. Salvation does not occur by doing nothing, it requires obedience which includes repentance. Therefore if a chistian steals his neighbors horse he must repent of that sin and do the work of returning the horse back to the rightful owner. As long as he keep the horse he remains an unrepentant horse thief and thieves do not inherit the kingdom of God, 1 Cor 6:9,10. For anyone to argue that the Christian does not have to do the work of repentance in returning the horse is the same as arguing there is nothing wrong with stealing or keeping possession of stolen merchandise. So the Christian can be lost if he does not truly repent and with one stone we have killed two man-made teachings of faith only (void of obedient works as repentance) saves and eternal security.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

,

Thats easy, if Christ has died for ones sins, they cannot be condemned Rom 8:33-34

33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

Christ died for every single person, not just a few. And Rom 8 nowhere teaches one can be saved while still lost in his unrepented, unforgiven sins.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Im saying what God said.
If you take his Son, he will take you.
bottom line.
This is called "Salvation".
If you want to argue against the fact that its free, that its given to the ungodly, and that its without the law, then your argument is against the Grace of God, and not with me.

So, to be perfectly crystal clear.
When you are saved, this means that all your sins are purged.
They are pardoned.
They are gone.
This means the ones you personally will do today, tomorrow, and if you live, the ones you will do the very day you die.

Your sins are gone if you are a Christian, they have ALL been paid for by the death of Christ.
He is the final payment for your sins.
There is no other that God offers.


So, let me ask the reader a question.

what sin of yours can you ever commit, that the blood of Jesus and the death and resurrection of Jesus hasn't already covered?



K

What verse teaches "if you take God's Son, God will take you"?

What do you mean by the word 'take'?

You posted:

So, to be perfectly crystal clear.
When you are saved, this means that all your sins are purged.
They are pardoned.
They are gone.
This means the ones you personally will do today, tomorrow, and if you live, the ones you will do the very day you die.

But no verse teaches one sins are automatically forgiven without repenting. If a Christian sins, he will have to repent or be lost. A Christian cannot steal and keep what he has stolen and be forgiven by God for God has said thieves wil NOT inherit the kingdom of God, 1 Cor 6:9.10.

No verse teaches future sins are forgiven. Acts 8, Simon fell from a saved state and would have remained lost till he repented of his sin of trying to buy the power of the Holy Ghost. That sin was committed after Simon had obeyed the gospel and was in a saved position and that sin was not automatically forgiven with Simon not having to repent......

1 Jn 1:7 "But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin."


For the Christian to have his sins cleansed away by Christ requires that he CONDITIONALLY walk in the light. "IF" is a conditonal word. "If" the Christian walks in the light, all his sins will be cleansed. "IF" he quits walking in the light his sins will no longer be cleasned and he will become lost.


Both the verbs "walk" and "cleanseth" are present tense showing an ongoing action and not just a one time or occasional action. So the Christian continues to walk in the light and ALL his sins are continaully cleansed by the blood of Christ. It is a continual walk, a continual obedience to Christ's word which includes repentance. There is not a single verse that teaches all the Christians futures sins are automatically forgiven without the Christian's ongoing walk in the light. So for the Christian to continue to walk in the light means he must do the work of returning a horse he has stolen to remain in that light and have all his sins continually forgiven. If he does not repent and return the horse he has quit walking in the light and his sins no longer cleansed by Christ's blood.

 

[reba]

Christ died for every single person, not just a few. And Rom 8 nowhere teaches one can be saved while still lost in his unrepented, unforgiven sins.

Are all saved? Has His Blood failed some?


Mat 15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Joh 17:8 For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.
Joh 17:9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.
Joh 17:10 And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them

 

[reba]

Isa 55:6 "Seek ye the LORD while he may be found, call ye upon him while he is near:"

It is man's responsibility to seek out God. Salvation does not occur by doing nothing, it requires obedience which includes repentance. Therefore if a chistian steals his neighbors horse he must repent of that sin and do the work of returning the horse back to the rightful owner. As long as he keep the horse he remains an unrepentant horse thief and thieves do not inherit the kingdom of God, 1 Cor 6:9,10. For anyone to argue that the Christian does not have to do the work of repentance in returning the horse is the same as arguing there is nothing wrong with stealing or keeping possession of stolen merchandise. So the Christian can be lost if he does not truly repent and with one stone we have killed two man-made teachings of faith only (void of obedient works as repentance) saves and eternal security.

Rom 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
Rom 3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

Joh 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

You need to do what ever it takes to resolve any ought you may have caused to anyone, before you can ask for forgiveness :

Matthew 5:23-24
Therefore if thou bring thy gift to the altar, and there rememberest that thy brother hath ought against thee; Leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way; first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift.

But according to some if you steal your brothers horse you can keep it for if you have to resolve the issue by doing the work of returning the horse you would be trying to work for your salvation, trying to earn your savlation. So you can keep the stolen horse and still be forgiven.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Not even remotely true.

It is impossible to pay for our sin with our own righteous behavior. Righteous behavior has no power to redeem a person. Only the blood of Christ can do that.

Righteous behavior flows from the new creation. The new creation we became when our sin guilt was totally and forever removed when we placed our trust in the blood of Christ to do that. The blood of Christ does that (remove sin) all by itself.




This is for those who already belong to God through the forgiveness of their own sins.

If you show contempt for the forgiveness you have received for your sins by not giving the same grace of forgiveness you received to others, your service and worship will not be accepted. Obedience is better than sacrifice.

“Does the LORD delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices as much as in obeying the LORD? To obey is better than sacrifice, and to heed is better than the fat of rams." (1 Samuel 15:22 NIV)

But too many people in the church think the sacrifice of their service and worship somehow makes up for their disobedience. Nothing could be further from the truth. There is not a shred of truth to that.

rrowell will have to speak for himself, but I did not see where rrowell said anything about us paying for our own sins. Repenting is not paying for our own sins. Christ died for our sins and for Christ to forgive those sins Christ has required us repent or perish, Lk 13:3,5. Doing nothing does not bring about the forgiveness of Christ.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Are all saved? Has His Blood failed some?


Mat 15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Joh 17:8 For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.
Joh 17:9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.
Joh 17:10 And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them

Christ died and shed His blood to make it possible for all men to be saved, yet all will not be saved for all will not come to Christ in obedience, Heb 5:9.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Rom 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
Rom 3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

Joh 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

In Rom 3, Paul was quoting David who was using hyperbole.


Isa 55:6 "Seek (imperative) ye the LORD while he may be found, call ye upon him while he is near:"

No sense in the Lord commanding man to seek Him if it were impossible for man to seek Him.


Deut 4:29 "But if from thence thou shalt seek the LORD thy God, thou shalt find [him], if thou seek him with all thy heart and with all thy soul."

1 Chron 16:10,11 " Glory ye in his holy name: let the heart of them rejoice that seek the LORD. Seek the LORD and his strength, seek his face continually. "

1 Chron 22:19 "Now set your heart and your soul to seek the LORD your God; arise therefore, and build ye the sanctuary of the LORD God, to bring the ark of the covenant of the LORD, and the holy vessels of God, into the house that is to be built to the name of the LORD."

2 Chron 11:16 "And after them out of all the tribes of Israel such as set their hearts to seek the LORD God of Israel came to Jerusalem, to sacrifice unto the LORD God of their fathers."

2 Chron 12:14 "And he did evil, because he prepared not his heart to seek the LORD. "

2 Chron 15:12,13 "And they entered into a covenant to seek the LORD God of their fathers with all their heart and with all their soul; That whosoever would not seek the LORD God of Israel should be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman."


2 Chron 20:3 "And Jehoshaphat feared, and set himself to seek the LORD, and proclaimed a fast throughout all Judah."


2 Chron 30:18,19 ".... But Hezekiah prayed for them, saying, The good LORD pardon every one [That] prepareth his heart to seek God, the LORD God of his fathers, though [he be] not [cleansed] according to the purification of the sanctuary."


Ezra 7:10 "For Ezra had prepared his heart to seek the law of the LORD, and to do [it], and to teach in Israel statutes and judgments."

Psa 9:10 "And they that know thy name will put their trust in thee: for thou, LORD, hast not forsaken them that seek thee."

Psa 40:16 " Let all those that seek thee rejoice and be glad in thee: let such as love thy salvation say continually, The LORD be magnified."

Psa 105:3,4 " Glory ye in his holy name: let the heart of them rejoice that seek the LORD. Seek the LORD, and his strength: seek his face evermore. "

Prov 28:5 "Evil men understand not judgment: but they that seek the LORD understand all [things]."

Isa 51:1 " Hearken to me, ye that follow after righteousness, ye that seek the LORD: look unto the rock [whence] ye are hewn, and to the hole of the pit [whence] ye are digged."

Amos 5:6 " Seek the LORD, and ye shall live; lest he break out like fire in the house of Joseph, and devour [it], and [there be] none to quench [it] in Bethel. "

Zep 2:3 "Seek ye the LORD, all ye meek of the earth, which have wrought his judgment; seek righteousness, seek meekness: it may be ye shall be hid in the day of the LORD'S anger."

Acts 17:27 " That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:"



Man has been told to seek the Lord and there were those who did seek the Lord.


From Jn 10, the ones God holds in His hands are the ones who continuously hear and Follow Christ, Jn 10:27. God does not unconditionally hold them but as long as they continuously hear and follow no man can pluck them from God's hand but if they of thier own choice quit hearing and follwoing (they of thier own choice chose to hear and follow) then they can remove themselves from God's hand.

What you essentially trying to say here is that the Christian can steal to his hearts content and never be plucked from God's hand even though that idea contradicts 1 Cor 6:9,10. If the Christian steals and does not repent, he is no longer hearing and following in the same way as Christ, v27. The Christian does not have a license to sin.

 

[savedbygrace57]

eb

Christ died for every single person, not just a few.

The christ of your imagination died for every single person, but the Christ of scripture died only for His Sheep or His Elect Rom 8:33-34

33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

 

[Danus]

Didn't Reformed Theology coin the term "Grace alone through faith alone"? I understand the differences between Fundamentalists and Calvinists as far as faith NEEDING to be a "saving" faith as opposed to a "said" faith, but where the rubber meets the road, in both cases, it is STILL faith alone that saves, not ANY works. Your definition of "faith" may be different than the Fundamentalist, but it is still only faith that saves.

Well sort of. I did not intend to address you directly with my suggestion. I was pointing out that when we say "the faith people" we could be speaking of a few different groups.

I would alter the idea that faith alone saves to say that only God saves anyone. Our faith in God is also a gift to us from God. So, for me, God gives us a measure of faith, we respond to God, we are saved in that. As that faith grows in our practice and relationship with God, then we are conformed to Christ in this way, and then we display works.

The other view is that we respond to God as a duty and responsibility; we perform works as a response to God and we are saved somewhere in that act that we do. In this way the emphasis is on what we do, not on what God has done. I personally totally reject that based on how I came to know God, and how that fits to my reading the Gospel, but I accept it from others who practice it for themselves as acceptable.

Do I think that the infused righteous crowd is correct and the imputed righteous crowd is wrong? Not at all. Do I think they are not saved, can't be saved? Nope, I do not think that. Do I think they lack a critical understanding of the bible? Yes and no. Yes in that I feel they are not necessarily expressing a true grace of God in their notion, but no in that anyone who seeks God will find Him.

 

[Danus]

Isa 55:6 "Seek ye the LORD while he may be found, call ye upon him while he is near:"

It is man's responsibility to seek out God. Salvation does not occur by doing nothing, it requires obedience which includes repentance. Therefore if a chistian steals his neighbors horse he must repent of that sin and do the work of returning the horse back to the rightful owner. As long as he keep the horse he remains an unrepentant horse thief and thieves do not inherit the kingdom of God, 1 Cor 6:9,10. For anyone to argue that the Christian does not have to do the work of repentance in returning the horse is the same as arguing there is nothing wrong with stealing or keeping possession of stolen merchandise. So the Christian can be lost if he does not truly repent and with one stone we have killed two man-made teachings of faith only (void of obedient works as repentance) saves and eternal security.

Well that's one notion, and perhaps very true for some, but I can't speak to it because it does not reflect my salvation.

I had totally rejected God. I never wanted to have anything to do with the notion of God, Christians, or Christ. I did not seek God when I meet him. I was converted in one simple act of humility where I stepped aside of my own will just long enough for him to pick me up. I've been a Christian ever since and my relationship with God has grown in those 21 years in a way that I could never imagine or influence in any way by my own efforts.

Consider this, not everyone is saved. This is a fact. If you say it is man's duty to seek God for his own salvation, then man is doomed, because he will not do it. God has to first influence man in some way or else He's nothing but a notion passed from one generation to another.

Take Paul for example. Did he seek Christ or did Christ seek him? Paul was on his way to Damascus to seek a Christian and have him persecuted, but something happened to Paul that had no barring on what Paul did. However, in that moment he was saved; converted, re-born in a way that he could not turn away from.

 

[dadof10]

Well sort of. I did not intend to address you directly with my suggestion. I was pointing out that when we say "the faith people" we could be speaking of a few different groups.

I would alter the idea that faith alone saves to say that only God saves anyone. Our faith in God is also a gift to us from God. So, for me, God gives us a measure of faith, we respond to God, we are saved in that.

Well put. Now, take this method (for lack of a better word) and apply it to baptism, charity, sacrifice, keeping the commandments and you will have the Catholic view of salvation. All these things are GIFTS from God, as is our will to do them, and our response to them saves us. I don't see where we disagree....

As that faith grows in our practice and relationship with God, then we are conformed to Christ in this way, and then we display works.

...unless, you don't consider responding to Grace through faith "works" in the same way baptism, charity, etc. are.

The other view is that we respond to God as a duty and responsibility; we perform works as a response to God and we are saved somewhere in that act that we do. In this way the emphasis is on what we do, not on what God has done. I personally totally reject that based on how I came to know God, and how that fits to my reading the Gospel, but I accept it from others who practice it for themselves as acceptable.

I think everyone rejects this view. I don't know of any church that teaches it. I think Judaism taught (and still teaches) it, though.

 

[rrowell]

Not even remotely true.

It is impossible to pay for our sin with our own righteous behavior. Righteous behavior has no power to redeem a person. Only the blood of Christ can do that.

Righteous behavior flows from the new creation. The new creation we became when our sin guilt was totally and forever removed when we placed our trust in the blood of Christ to do that. The blood of Christ does that (remove sin) all by itself.

I never once said we could pay for our own sins, I was talking about "repentance", you cannot have your sins cleansed without having them washed away "Baptized" putting us in contact with his sin cleansing blood, but once we have obeyed this command, we must practice every day to try to stay in a cleansed condition until death, in other words "repent", "walk away from those sins" :

Romans 6:4 KJV
Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

What Christ gave us was the perfect sacrifice for us, as he knew we will never be perfect, so through grace he gave us forgiveness, but only after repentance and prayer...

Only by the perfect sacrifice could this gift be given:

Hebrews 10:4 KJV
For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.

This is for those who already belong to God through the forgiveness of their own sins.

If you show contempt for the forgiveness you have received for your sins by not giving the same grace of forgiveness you received to others, your service and worship will not be accepted. Obedience is better than sacrifice.

“Does the LORD delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices as much as in obeying the LORD? To obey is better than sacrifice, and to heed is better than the fat of rams." (1 Samuel 15:22 NIV)

But too many people in the church think the sacrifice of their service and worship somehow makes up for their disobedience. Nothing could be further from the truth. There is not a shred of truth to that.

It is sad there are so many Sunday Do Good people out there that are miss lead into thinking there is a difference in the way we behave inside and outside of a church building.

BTW: does not the very word "obedience" to which you imply is mandatory some how imply "works"

 

[rrowell]

Well that's one notion, and perhaps very true for some, but I can't speak to it because it does not reflect my salvation.

I had totally rejected God. I never wanted to have anything to do with the notion of God, Christians, or Christ. I did not seek God when I meet him. I was converted in one simple act of humility where I stepped aside of my own will just long enough for him to pick me up. I've been a Christian ever since and my relationship with God has grown in those 21 years in a way that I could never imagine or influence in any way by my own efforts.

Consider this, not everyone is saved. This is a fact. If you say it is man's duty to seek God for his own salvation, then man is doomed, because he will not do it. God has to first influence man in some way or else He's nothing but a notion passed from one generation to another.

Take Paul for example. Did he seek Christ or did Christ seek him? Paul was on his way to Damascus to seek a Christian and have him persecuted, but something happened to Paul that had no barring on what Paul did. However, in that moment he was saved; converted, re-born in a way that he could not turn away from.

We are born into this world a creature of God, it is man that walks away either by false teaching or no teaching at all... you will find it hard in this entire world to find one person who does not know who Jesus is. but you will find the majority of them do not seek him...

Paul did not seek Jesus, but he was thinking what he was doing was pleasing to God... he was miss lead until Jesus picked him to use as a vessel to help lead all of us to the way of salvation, Paul always wanted to do what he thought God wanted him to do, what Jesus did was show Paul truly what God's will was...

 

[Danus]

Well put. Now, take this method (for lack of a better word) and apply it to baptism, charity, sacrifice, keeping the commandments and you will have the Catholic view of salvation. All these things are GIFTS from God, as is our will to do them, and our response to them saves us. I don't see where we disagree....



...unless, you don't consider responding to Grace through faith "works" in the same way baptism, charity, etc. are.



I think everyone rejects this view. I don't know of any church that teaches it. I think Judaism taught (and still teaches) it, though.

I know many Catholics. I have family, and friends who are Catholic, and at the heart of it I see no difference in true salvation. I am a reformed protestant.

However, there are differences in our church teachings and depending on how fundamental people want to be in regard to those teachings is where I see the big differences.

One example is purgatory. I could list more, but it's pointless to the discussion of salvation. I'm not a Catholic basher, and I believe that if a Protestant wants to dig into his own theology, he'd do well to respect the Catholic church. inversely, Catholics would also do well to understand the reformation from the higher protestant view in regards to the Gospel and the churches place.

I don't regard responding to faith and the grace of God as a work. A Work to me is something instituted by me at my own will, and I reject this notion completely when it comes to salvation. I accept a very high protestant view of salvation that places the emphasis totally on God and His will to save whom he will save.

I do however, see value in the idea of man seeking God for salvation. How those two notions fit I can't say for sure, other than to say God institutes the work and effort of those who seek him. Again, I lean heavily to that.

 

[Danus]

We are born into this world a creature of God, it is man that walks away either by false teaching or no teaching at all... you will find it hard in this entire world to find one person who does not know who Jesus is. but you will find the majority of them do not seek him...

Paul did not seek Jesus, but he was thinking what he was doing was pleasing to God... he was miss lead until Jesus picked him to use as a vessel to help lead all of us to the way of salvation, Paul always wanted to do what he thought God wanted him to do, what Jesus did was show Paul truly what God's will was...

And I'd say we are born sinners, lost to God and it is God who seeks us, not the other way around. In any case, there is no harm in your assertion of seeking God. As you mentioned, Paul felt he was doing the work of God when Jesus found him, and it was that which saved him, rather than his thought of working on behalf of God.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

eb



The christ of your imagination died for every single person, but the Christ of scripture died only for His Sheep or His Elect Rom 8:33-34

33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

Again, Rom 8:33,3 does not say Christ only died for a certain, select few. You are again reading your theology into the text.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Well that's one notion, and perhaps very true for some, but I can't speak to it because it does not reflect my salvation.

I had totally rejected God. I never wanted to have anything to do with the notion of God, Christians, or Christ. I did not seek God when I meet him. I was converted in one simple act of humility where I stepped aside of my own will just long enough for him to pick me up. I've been a Christian ever since and my relationship with God has grown in those 21 years in a way that I could never imagine or influence in any way by my own efforts.

Consider this, not everyone is saved. This is a fact. If you say it is man's duty to seek God for his own salvation, then man is doomed, because he will not do it. God has to first influence man in some way or else He's nothing but a notion passed from one generation to another.

Take Paul for example. Did he seek Christ or did Christ seek him? Paul was on his way to Damascus to seek a Christian and have him persecuted, but something happened to Paul that had no barring on what Paul did. However, in that moment he was saved; converted, re-born in a way that he could not turn away from.

Acts 15:11 Jew and Gentile are saved in lilke manner and that like manner way that all that are saved will be saved by is coming to God in obedience.

Just a few posts ago, (post #49) I gave many verses that attest to the fact man has been commanded to seek God (no sense for God to command man to seek Him if it were impossible) and I gave examples of those that "set themselves" to seek God.

Saul was one who was already seeking to obey God, yet was going about it the wrong way until he was corrected. Even after learning the error of his way, Saul still had to come to God in obedience, Acts 22:16, to be saved.

 

[savedbygrace57]

Again, Rom 8:33,3 does not say Christ only died for a certain, select few. You are again reading your theology into the text.

The christ of your imagination died for every single person, but the Christ of scripture died only for His Sheep or His Elect Rom 8:33-34

33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.