The Work of Repentance Versus Faith Only

[Ernest T. Bass]

The christ of your imagination died for every single person, but the Christ of scripture died only for His Sheep or His Elect Rom 8:33-34

33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

Just repeating it does not prove it.

 

[savedbygrace57]

Just repeating it does not prove it.

The christ of your imagination died for every single person, but the Christ of scripture died only for His Sheep or His Elect Rom 8:33-34

33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

 

[rrowell]

And I'd say we are born sinners, lost to God and it is God who seeks us, not the other way around.

1: we are not "born sinners", it is God that gives us a sole, to say we are "born sinners" is to say God tempts us by putting us in a lost state from the beginning:

James 1:13 KJV
Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:

and Jesus would not have said:

Matthew 18:3 KJV
And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.

and again:

Matthew 19:14 KJV
But Jesus said, Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven.

So if Children are "Born Sinners" how could it be "for of such is the kingdom of heaven" ?

In any case, there is no harm in your assertion of seeking God. As you mentioned, Paul felt he was doing the work of God when Jesus found him, and it was that which saved him, rather than his thought of working on behalf of God.

We are to seek him, in fact we are to seek him diligently:

Hebrews 11:6 KJV
But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

and how do we find him? :

John 14:6 KJV
Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

To Seek God, you MUST FIRST Seek Jesus.

 

[farouk]

Actually, Psalm 51 says, 'in sin did my mother conceive me'. The evidence of Scripture does point to the fact of being born in sin. Therefore we all need a Savior.

 

[rrowell]

But according to some if you steal your brothers horse you can keep it for if you have to resolve the issue by doing the work of returning the horse you would be trying to work for your salvation, trying to earn your savlation. So you can keep the stolen horse and still be forgiven.

I know, and if you really want to kick a bee hive, talk about divorce and re-marriage.

Unless a divorce is qualified by fornication, to remarry is adultery, once one finds this out (after being remarried) the only way to stop being an adulterer is to not be married... (kind of like not returning the horse)

But this would require a thread of its own...

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

The christ of your imagination died for every single person, but the Christ of scripture died only for His Sheep or His Elect Rom 8:33-34

33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

Nope, no proof yet.

 

[rrowell]

Actually, Psalm 51 says, 'in sin did my mother conceive me'. The evidence of Scripture does point to the fact of being born in sin. Therefore we all need a Savior.

David simply said his mother was a sinner when he was conceived, he was not born a sinner, if so then this would be a direct contradiction of the words of Ezekiel:

Ezekiel 18:20 KJV
The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

 

[Danus]

1: we are not "born sinners", it is God that gives us a sole, to say we are "born sinners" is to say God tempts us by putting us in a lost state from the beginning:

James 1:13 KJV
Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:

and Jesus would not have said:

Matthew 18:3 KJV
And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.

and again:

Matthew 19:14 KJV
But Jesus said, Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven.

So if Children are "Born Sinners" how could it be "for of such is the kingdom of heaven" ?



We are to seek him, in fact we are to seek him diligently:

Hebrews 11:6 KJV
But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

and how do we find him? :

John 14:6 KJV
Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

To Seek God, you MUST FIRST Seek Jesus.

Are you asking me a specific question, or asserting your view? If your asking a question let me know for sure, but if this is your view, I am already aware of it, but I will make a note that it belongs to you.

In any case, let me know if there is a question for me in it because I don't want to leave you hanging without an answer.

 

[rrowell]

Are you asking me a specific question, or asserting your view? If your asking a question let me know for sure, but if this is your view, I am already aware of it, but I will make a note that it belongs to you.

In any case, let me know if there is a question for me in it because I don't want to leave you hanging without an answer.

I provided scripture that supports we are to seek Jesus, and scripture to support we are not born with sin,

So one of us is wrong, and I want to be right, so prove me wrong (with scripture)

 

[Danus]

I provided scripture that supports we are to seek Jesus, and scripture to support we are not born with sin,

So one of us is wrong, and I want to be right, so prove me wrong (with scripture)

Ah, Well I'd disagree that the scriptures you provided prove, or even bolster your claim in their proper context.

For example, Matt. 18:3, And he said: “Truly I tell you, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.

You are misinterpreting this to mean that Children are sinless and we are to be like them when we come to Christ. If we are to be sinless like children, as you have interpreted this, then we don't need Christ because we'd be sinless and therefor saved. We'd simply save ourselves, but the scriptures clearly do not say that.

What Christ is emphasizing and talking about being like Children is humility. You've misinterpreted that in your notion, and the other scriptures you are using as well.

So, if you have a question you want me an answer then I'll be happy to do that, otherwise I accept that you may not accept my position and understanding, and I'm perfectly cool with that as long as you can allow me to keep it for myself, as I am allowing you to do so.

Otherwise this thread will be heaped on to the pile of stubborn misunderstandings as so many others have been, and I've wasted too much time going down rabbit holes with hardline fundamentalist in the past.

Again, questions for the reformed view? yes, no?

Proof, by the way, is not something I can just hand you, any more than I can prove Gods existence to an Atheist. You'll have to decide if you are willing or not, to examine scripture for all it is worth. You can hold on to your thoughts and understandings and still do that, and I'd be happy to assist you in my understandings, but I can't prove anything to you. That does not make either of us right or wrong in our inability to do that.

 

[rrowell]

Ah, Well I'd disagree that the scriptures you provided prove, or even bolster your claim in their proper context.

For example, Matt. 18:3, And he said: “Truly I tell you, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.

You are misinterpreting this to mean that Children are sinless and we are to be like them when we come to Christ. If we are to be sinless like children, as you have interpreted this, then we don't need Christ because we'd be sinless and therefor saved. We'd simply save ourselves, but the scriptures clearly do not say that

Then if what you say is true, God has created us as sinners, and a still born baby is destined for eternal damnation? does this sound like the God the Bible teaches us of? where were these children that Matt. 18:3 speaks of "saved", they must have been "saved" or the kingdom would not be filled with such? we must speak where the bible speaks, and be silent where the bible is silent, otherwise we can make any verse say anything we want.

What Christ is emphasizing and talking about being like Children is humility. You've misinterpreted that in your notion, and the other scriptures you are using as well.

Where in this verse does it differentiate sin and humility? it does not say that, your implying something the bible does not say... if by implication you say they are of humility, then by implication you are saying they have in some way been saved? even a sinner can have humility? but only the saved can enter the kingdom, so if it cannot be proven in this scripture they are saved, or unsaved, then they must be blameless, Christ is telling us that they were born into this world without sin, and have not yet learned to sin therefore if we are to enter the kingdom we must become like them, a new born babe through Christ.

So, if you have a question you want me an answer then I'll be happy to do that, otherwise I accept that you may not accept my position and understanding, and I'm perfectly cool with that as long as you can allow me to keep it for myself, as I am allowing you to do so.

We have two very different views on this, this is not unity, therefore one of us are right, and one of us are wrong, to be brothers in Christ we must be united, it is your (and my) duty to correct our erring brethren... we cannot agree to disagree, this is why we have denominations and must be resolved as there is one body (Church) one head (Christ) so to have one body, we must not agree to disagree..

Colossians 1:18 (KJV)
18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

Ephesians 4:13 (KJV)
13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

Proof, by the way, is not something I can just hand you, any more than I can prove Gods existence to an Atheist. You'll have to decide if you are willing or not, to examine scripture for all it is worth. You can hold on to your thoughts and understandings and still do that, and I'd be happy to assist you in my understandings, but I can't prove anything to you. That does not make either of us right or wrong in our inability to do that.

You have not provided scripture that proves that it is okay to not return the horse (in previous posts) and not proven to be an infant is born with sin, on the contrary I have in this post and previous posts given scripture to prove your position on these subjects is false...

we should be as the Bereans!

Acts 17:10-11 (KJV)
10 And the brethren immediately sent away Paul and Silas by night unto Berea: who coming thither went into the synagogue of the Jews.
11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

 

[Danus]

Then if what you say is true, God has created us as sinners, and a still born baby is destined for eternal damnation? does this sound like the God the Bible teaches us of? where were these children that Matt. 18:3 speaks of "saved", they must have been "saved" or the kingdom would not be filled with such? we must speak where the bible speaks, and be silent where the bible is silent, otherwise we can make any verse say anything we want.

I'll let pastor Ron answer this for you. he puts it well:

My brother died when he was six hours old. For many years I wondered if he was in heaven. After all, he never had a chance to believe… he inherited a sin nature from Adam… he never confessed or repented of his sin… so how could he be forgiven? As it is written, “Believe on the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved!” My brother never had that chance… so how could he be in heaven?

Consider this: Jesus died for those who will believe… and those who can’t believe! Read that again…

Every person is saved one way, by grace… not works… baptism… or walking an aisle. Salvation is by God’s grace and God’s grace alone. Not by intellect… depth of comprehending the Gospel… nor the ability to repent and/or believe. Salvation is always, only, and completely because of God’s grace. It is because of God’s grace that He give a person the faith to believe and the ability to repent so as to be saved.

By contrast, in Scripture, every time people are damned to hell it is because of their works… the things they did in this life… the sins they committed while on earth. People are saved by grace and condemned because of works. Now…

Babies who dies in infancy, and those mentally incapable of understanding, are saved the same way everyone else is saved… by God’s grace. They do not have the capacity to differentiate right from wrong, they are not capable of connecting their actions with consequences or understanding the concepts of God, sin, repentance, or salvation (This is not true of those who come to understand their condition). Thus, in their innocence, God in His great mercy and compassion sovereignly saves them the same way He saves everyone else… by His grace.

Illustration from the life of David. The baby born to David and Bathsheba got sick and died. While the child was sick David fasted, prayed, and wept. When the child died, his mourning was over… because he knew the child was in heaven. As David said, “I shall go to him, he shall not return to me.” David was a believer. He knew he’d go to heaven. He knew he’d see the child again.

David had another child named Absalom. This child was an adult who turned against his father and led a rebellion against David. When Absalom was fleeing David’s army, he got caught in a tree. Joab then killed him. When David asked how his son was doing, the reply was… “May the enemies of my lord the king and all who rise up against you for evil be like that young man.” It was THEN that David began weeping.

Here’s the point. When the first child died, David stopped weeping because he knew where the child was… in heaven. It was when Absalom died that David BEGAN weeping because he knew where evil Absalom was… and David would never see him again.

If you have a child that died in infancy (including abortion or miscarriage) or a family member who does not have the ability to reason as those who are held responsible for their knowledge (Romans 1), you can take comfort that upon their death they are with God in heaven… by God’s grace!
http://pastorron7.wordpress.com/2010/01/14/babies-in-heaven/

Where in this verse does it differentiate sin and humility? it does not say that, your implying something the bible does not say... if by implication you say they are of humility, then by implication you are saying they have in some way been saved? even a sinner can have humility? but only the saved can enter the kingdom, so if it cannot be proven in this scripture they are saved, or unsaved, then they must be blameless, Christ is telling us that they were born into this world without sin, and have not yet learned to sin therefore if we are to enter the kingdom we must become like them, a new born babe through Christ.

OK, let's look at the text again. Matthew 18:3 3 And he said: “Truly I tell you, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.

Does the text say anything about sin? No it does not. It just says change and become like little children. Is Jesus speaking to children with this text? No, clearly it infers he is speaking to adults, but what is like a child and how can we be sure.

like a child in this scripture means, The humbleness, trusting nature of a child, coming to his loving Father trusting him completely to take care of him to protect him to provide for him. Jesus is telling us that we need to have this type of trust and faith in the Father, we are after all his children. We should be able to come to him fully trusting that he loves us and cares for us.

He clearly does not say sinless like children, because for you to be sinless would make you guiltless in the first place. correct? If you are without sin as Christ is without sin, then you and Christ are the same and you have ever lasting life. You don't need that from Christ if you are sinless, but let's look at some more text. his part, "unless you change"...

Is Jesus saying unless you make a change? is he saying unless you put forth the effort to change? No, he is not saying anything about what you willfully do here, he's just saying unless you change.

Does a caterpillar decide on its own to change into a butterfly or not to change? No, it simply changes. It has no choice, but to do so. However it could die before it changes and never change.

So it is also for the saved. because the saved are destined to be saved like the caterpillar is destined to change into a butterfly, as sure as a dead caterpillar is destined never to change.

All Jesus says here is "unless you change". Some will not, and this is a fact, but what else tells us that children are born sinners?

Scripture says that we are born sinners and that we are by nature sinners
Psalm 51:5 states that we all come into the world as sinners: "Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin my mother conceived me." Ephesians 2:2 says that all people who are not in Christ are "sons of disobedience." Ephesians 2:3 also establishes this, saying that we are all "by nature children of wrath." If we are all "by nature children of wrath," it can only be because we are all by nature sinners--for God does not direct His wrath towards those who are not guilty. God did not create the human race sinful, but upright. But we fell into sin and became sinful due to the sin of Adam.

Scripture speaks of humans as unrighteous from infancy
There are also verses which declare that we are all unrighteous from the time that we are born. Proverbs 22:15 says "Foolishness is bound up in the heart of a child." Genesis 8:21 declares, "...the intent of man's heart is evil from his youth." Jonathon Edwards, in his classic work The Great Christian Doctrine of Original Sin Defended, remarks that on this verse: "The word translated youth, signifies the whole of the former part of the age of man, which commences from the beginning of life. The word in its derivation, has reference to the birth or beginning of existence...so that the word here translated youth, comprehends not only what we in English most commonly call the time of youth, but also childhood and infancy."

Humanity is Often Described in General Terms as Unrighteous
Unrighteousness is often spoken of in Scripture as something belonging to the human race as a whole.This implies that it is the property of our species. In other words, sinfulness is considered a property of human nature after the fall. Thus, it must be concluded that we are all born sinners, since we are all born human and sin is regarded as a property of humanity. In this vein, consider Ephesians 2:1-3: And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest.

I think I can conclude this, 1. we are clearly born sinners 2. God saved whom he chooses to save. 3. Christ saves those who can't save themselves and therefor a new born who dies unable to save itself is clearly saved. Does that help?

We have two very different views on this, this is not unity, therefore one of us are right, and one of us are wrong, to be brothers in Christ we must be united, it is your (and my) duty to correct our erring brethren... we cannot agree to disagree, this is why we have denominations and must be resolved as there is one body (Church) one head (Christ) so to have one body, we must not agree to disagree..

No, we can agree to disagree. The saved are not indicative of denominations. The church does not, nor has it ever, saved anyone from damnation. Ever. Not one lost sole has the church as an institution, or individual ever saved. Furthermore, it is not obligated to do so. The task of salivation is solely the work of God upon whom He will have mercy for his own glory and will. What I am saying here is what your scriptures below mean.

Colossians 1:18 (KJV)
18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

Ephesians 4:13 (KJV)
13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

You have not provided scripture that proves that it is okay to not return the horse (in previous posts) and not proven to be an infant is born with sin, on the contrary I have in this post and previous posts given scripture to prove your position on these subjects is false...

we should be as the Bereans!

Acts 17:10-11 (KJV)
10 And the brethren immediately sent away Paul and Silas by night unto Berea: who coming thither went into the synagogue of the Jews.
11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

And neither have you, but I did add clarity to the scriptures you provided, as well as a few more, and as I said before, I can not prove anything to anyone about God. That's God's task not mine.

Hope that helps. I can be a little harsh sometimes, but I don't mean to be. I'm working on gentleness and kindness so bear with me, but if I can be of service in any way please let me know.

 

[savedbygrace57]

It Gives Repentance unto Life !



Godly Repentance must come from a Godly Source, that is the kind of Repentance that worketh Salvation ! 2 Cor 7:10

For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.


This Type of Repentance is not in the nature of man because we are by nature ungodly ! Rom 5:6

But Godly Repentance is given from a Godly Source which is the Lord Jesus Christ. He gives those He died for Godly Repentance Acts 5:31

31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.

Note: Christ is not ones Saviour if He does not give them Repentance unto Life ! Acts 11:18

18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.


You see, repentance is the fruit of the New Birth which is the Fruit of Christ's Resurrection which is fruit of His Death !

All for whom Christ died and rose again, are by His Resurrection begotten again ! Peter writes about it here 1 Pet 1:3

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

The words begotten us again in the greek is
anagennaō and means:

to produce again, be born again, born anew

2) metaph. to have one's mind changed so that he lives a new life and one conformed to the will of God

Notice in addition of it meaning born anew or produce again, it also means to have one's mind changed !

Now this is significant because the word repentance Acts 5:31 is the greek word

metanoia which means:

a change of mind, as it appears to one who repents, of a purpose he has formed or of something he has done
And so that is why it is said that Jesus gives Repentance to His Israel or Elect out of both israel and the gentiles.

This is True because, Repentance, Godly Repentance is a product of the New Birth !

Also in Heb the writer has repentance being something suitable for those who are Babes in Christ Heb 5:11-6:1

11 Of whom we have many things to say, and hard to be uttered, seeing ye are dull of hearing.

12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.

13 For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.

14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.

6 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,

You see, Repentance from dead works and faith toward God or Christ as Per Acts 20:21

21 Testifying both to the Jews, and also to the Greeks, repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ.

Those things are milk and milk is for babes 1 Pet 2:1

Wherefore laying aside all malice, and all guile, and hypocrisies, and envies, and all evil speakings,

2 As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby:

This confirms that the Apostles Preached Repentance in hope that New Born babes, who have been begotten again by the Resurrection of Christ from the Dead would be converted !

Those of you who believe that repentance is something man does as a condition to get saved, you are deceived and you are a deceiver, for Christ gets the joy of every sinner that Repents Lk 15:7

7 I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance.

Thats Christ Joy in the accomplishment of His Finished work, it brings the Sheep back to God !

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

It Gives Repentance unto Life !



Godly Repentance must come from a Godly Source, that is the kind of Repentance that worketh Salvation ! 2 Cor 7:10

For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.


This Type of Repentance is not in the nature of man because we are by nature ungodly ! Rom 5:6

But Godly Repentance is given from a Godly Source which is the Lord Jesus Christ. He gives those He died for Godly Repentance Acts 5:31

31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.

Note: Christ is not ones Saviour if He does not give them Repentance unto Life ! Acts 11:18

18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.


You see, repentance is the fruit of the New Birth which is the Fruit of Christ's Resurrection which is fruit of His Death !

All for whom Christ died and rose again, are by His Resurrection begotten again ! Peter writes about it here 1 Pet 1:3

First, you quote two verses above that have "repentance to life" and "repentance unto life".....NOT repentance because one already has life.

And Rom 5:6 does not say men are born with an ungodly nature. Verse 7 speaks of a righteous man and good man. If you could claim verse 6 teaches one is born with an ungodly nature another person could easily claim verse 7 teaches man is born with a righteous or good nature.


Bottom line is that the work of repentance is necessary in order to be sved for one cannot keep what he has stolen and say he has truly repented.

 

[rrowell]

OK, let's look at the text again. Matthew 18:3 3 And he said: “Truly I tell you, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.

Does the text say anything about sin? No it does not. It just says change and become like little children. Is Jesus speaking to children with this text? No, clearly it infers he is speaking to adults, but what is like a child and how can we be sure.

like a child in this scripture means, The humbleness, trusting nature of a child, coming to his loving Father trusting him completely to take care of him to protect him to provide for him. Jesus is telling us that we need to have this type of trust and faith in the Father, we are after all his children. We should be able to come to him fully trusting that he loves us and cares for us.

He clearly does not say sinless like children, because for you to be sinless would make you guiltless in the first place. correct? If you are without sin as Christ is without sin, then you and Christ are the same and you have ever lasting life. You don't need that from Christ if you are sinless, but let's look at some more text. his part, "unless you change"...

Is Jesus saying unless you make a change? is he saying unless you put forth the effort to change? No, he is not saying anything about what you willfully do here, he's just saying unless you change

Okay, lets get to the basics, this has gotten so large we need to start with the basics so as not to confuse anyone and allow text to be out of context so as to make it read what we want, and not what it says, I will start with a simple question and would like a strait forward answer (and should be a simple answer as a "yes" or "no".)

Do you believe all of the Bible is given to us by inspired men (through the inspiration of God) and that because of this, the Bible "cannot" contradict it self?

Yes or No, because if the answer is no, it is not possible to find truth in it, what say you?

 

[rrowell]

First, you quote two verses above that have "repentance to life" and "repentance unto life".....NOT repentance because one already has life.

And Rom 5:6 does not say men are born with an ungodly nature. Verse 7 speaks of a righteous man and good man. If you could claim verse 6 teaches one is born with an ungodly nature another person could easily claim verse 7 teaches man is born with a righteous or good nature.


Bottom line is that the work of repentance is necessary in order to be sved for one cannot keep what he has stolen and say he has truly repented.

Judas knew right from wrong, he knew taking the money given him to point out our savior was wrong and wanted to "repent" for what he did, so what does the bible say he did with the money? he gave it back...

You are correct Mr. Bass, we must return the horse.:

Matthew 27:2-5 (KJV)
2 And when they had bound him, they led him away, and delivered him to Pontius Pilate the governor.
3 Then Judas, which had betrayed him, when he saw that he was condemned, repented himself, and brought again the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and elders,
4 Saying, I have sinned in that I have betrayed the innocent blood. And they said, What is that to us? see thou to that.
5 And he cast down the pieces of silver in the temple, and departed, and went and hanged himself.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Bottom line is that the work of repentance is necessary in order to be sved for one cannot keep what he has stolen and say he has truly repented.

The problem comes in when someone suggests the repentance itself has some kind of atoning power in and of itself that adds to the power of the blood of Christ. Faith does the justifying all by itself. That is what is meant by 'faith, apart from works'. That does not mean repentance doesn't have to accompany faith. It means the faith that justifies all by itself must be seen in a changed nature or the faith you claim you have is not the faith that justifies all by itself.

Our commanded duty is to show the 'justification by faith apart from works' that we claim we have by what we do, just as Abraham showed the righteousness of his justification by faith by what he did. That way we can know for ourselves that we really do have the faith that justifies (apart from works), or not. And if we find that we come up short we can do something about it and not be deceived into thinking we have the faith that justifies all by itself, apart from works, when we really don't.

 

[rrowell]

The problem comes in when someone suggests the repentance itself has some kind of atoning power in and of itself that adds to the power of the blood of Christ. Faith does the justifying all by itself. That is what is meant by 'faith, apart from works'. That does not mean repentance doesn't have to accompany faith. It means the faith that justifies all by itself must be seen in a changed nature or the faith you claim you have is not the faith that justifies all by itself.

What it means is faith alone will not suffice, faith without works is dead... both are needed...

James 2:14-17 (KJV)
14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

What seems to be the problem is people today understanding what is meant by "Works" and not taking the context it is used in.


After the death of Christ, the "works" are required with "faith".
Before the death of Christ the "works" was considered the old law, the old law "works" will not save us, the new better covenant through Gods Grace, gave us "faith" but "faith" alone will not save us even under the new law, it must be accompanied by works (as stated by James) or faith alone is "dead"

 

[Jethro Bodine]

What it means is faith alone will not suffice, faith without works is dead... both are needed...

James 2:14-17 (KJV)
14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

What seems to be the problem is people today understanding what is meant by "Works" and not taking the context it is used in.


After the death of Christ, the "works" are required with "faith".
Before the death of Christ the "works" was considered the old law, the old law "works" will not save us, the new better covenant through Gods Grace, gave us "faith" but "faith" alone will not save us even under the new law, it must be accompanied by works (as stated by James) or faith alone is "dead"

You're putting an incorrect spin on it.

Faith justifies all by itself, apart from the merit of righteous behavior. But the faith that justifies all by itself can be seen in how it changes a person into someone who now has righteous behavior. If you don't have that righteous behavior (specifically the lawful requirement to love others) you may not have the faith that justifies all by itself.

Adding righteous behavior to faith does not now make that faith able to justify. Righteous behavior shows you to genuinely have the faith that justifies all by itself. Righteous behavior is only needed for salvation in the sense it is the expected and obligatory response to being made a new creation in Christ through faith in his blood, all by the virtue of the faith itself, apart from the merit of righteous behavior.

What you don't understand is 'faith alone' doesn't mean the faith that justifies doesn't have to have righteous work attached to it. What you call 'faith alone' means to us is the faith that justifies does that (justifies) all by itself. But that does not mean true, justifying faith is not expected to change the person into someone who now does righteous things. No one who truly understands 'faith apart from works' will tell you that. You need to understand that.

James' 'faith alone' is NOT the same as Paul's 'faith apart from works'. Don't get the two confused and so misunderstand the argument. Paul says faith all by itself, apart from righteous works, is what justifies a person (makes them righteous before God). Works CAN NOT make a person righteous before God. Never has, never will. I'd be surprised if you disagreed with that.

Now what James means by 'faith alone' is that a genuine saving faith in Christ will not be void of good works. It has nothing to do with being MADE righteous by what you do. It has everything to do with being SHOWN to have been made righteous (by your faith in Christ all by itself) by what you do. Don't confuse these two very different teachings and think that 'faith apart from works' has the same meaning as 'faith alone', for it surely does not.

"...I will show you my faith by what I do." (James 2: NIV1984)


Adding righteous work to faith does not now make faith able to justify. Faith in the forgiveness of God does that all by itself. Righteous work shows the faith you claim you have in Christ's blood to be a genuine faith that justifies and which can save a person. A so-called faith that has no righteous work attached is a faith that can not justify them and save their soul:

"Can such faith save him?" (James 2: NIV1984)

So don't misunderstand. James is NOT saying that we are made righteous by faith and works. No. Works show us whether we have been truly made righteous by faith in Christ. It is only in that sense that works must accompany faith.

 

[Kidron]

The problem comes in when someone suggests the repentance itself has some kind of atoning power in and of itself that adds to the power of the blood of Christ. Faith does the justifying all by itself. That is what is meant by 'faith, apart from works'. That does not mean repentance doesn't have to accompany faith. It means the faith that justifies all by itself must be seen in a changed nature or the faith you claim you have is not the faith that justifies all by itself.

Our commanded duty is to show the 'justification by faith apart from works' that we claim we have by what we do, just as Abraham showed the righteousness of his justification by faith by what he did. That way we can know for ourselves that we really do have the faith that justifies (apart from works), or not. And if we find that we come up short we can do something about it and not be deceived into thinking we have the faith that justifies all by itself, apart from works, when we really don't.

Every time you almost suggest that you actually understand the FREE GIFT of Salvation, you find a way to run back to works to prove you really have not accepted the free gift..

Here is the situation.....
A person ither allows God to save them for FREE, based on the atonement, or they dont.
Your problem, and its the problem of a lot of religious people who understand faith, but cant accept it as God designed , is the fact that you have confused discipleship with salvation.
You are confusing what you do AFTER you are saved, with your idea that they are the same.
They are not.
Salvation is NOT discipleship.
What God did for you, is a free gift, that is given based on you doing NOTHING but believing just like Abraham did.
Following your born again by faith conversion,.. you are become a disciple of Christ and in this, you are to do some things.
But if you DONT, you are not suddely unborn again, or lost,....you are simply not being a good disciple, not being obedient..
However, you became a disciple, not based on works, but based on faith/belief and you works or lack of them after your conversion cant undo your regeneration.

Your bible says that "Abraham BELIEVED GOD and it was ACCOUNTED TO HIM FOR RIGHTEOUSNESS".
Its does not say..."Abraham was willing to offer up his son and so God accepted him based on his willingness to cut his boy's throat".
Now, do you understand this??????????
God gave Abraham RIGHTEOUSNESS BEFORE he offered the son.......and it was a done deal.
Its the same for a believer in 2012........God takes our sins, lays them on Christ, and he takes the righteousness of Christ and lays it on us when we BELIEVE.
In that INSTANT.
Its a done deal.
After this, you are to be a good disciple, BECAUSE you are saved and not to BE saved.
So get that...
Stop confusing discipleship works with free salvation, and you'll be able to understand GRACE, hopefully.
Till you do, you will continue to try to combine works + salvation = saved......... which is not the truth.
It is not the truth to confuse the free gift of salvation with "works'.
It is error and theological rubbish to preach that works, which cant save you before the cross, have the ability to save you or keep you saved AFTER the Cross.



K