The Work of Repentance Versus Faith Only

[felix]

To say that man is born with sin would require proof of how this "sin" is create/transmitted or in some way moved from one soul to another, or from one soul to a human body then again to a human body and again to the born soul, none of this what so ever can be proven scriptural, in fact scripture teaches the opposite,

Sin is not transmitted from one soul to another but the knowledge of evil is. When Adam and Eve ate the fruit of tree of knowledge of good and evil, sin entered them through the fruit in the form of the "evil knowledge".

Before Cain murdered his brother, look at what God spoke:

(Gen 4:7) "If you do well, will you not be accepted? And if you do not do well, sin lies at the door. And its desire [is] for you, but you should rule over it."

Sin lies at the door and we should rule over it. When a child is born sin enters him in the form of "evil knowledge within".

 

[BobE]

Nothing complicated here. The idea puts the faith only crowd in the bad position of having to justify stealing, keeping stolen merchandise before they would ever admit that the obedient work of repentance/reparation is necessary to be saved.

Hmm, well I do not understand the "faith only crowd" in this way. The transformation that takes place through faith would lead the new creation in Christ to renounce stealing and make restitution (i.e. return any stolen goods).

If faith takes hold of both the forgiveness and transformation made available by the Spirit through the work of Christ on the cross, it contains an element of repentance. Repentance and faith need not be considered mutually exclusive concepts. In fact, I think that splitting them contributes to much confusion.

 

[Danus]

I believe you do, I believe you as most others on this forum believe the bible to be truth, and if all would stick to the bible only and pray for understanding:

James 1:5 (KJV)
5 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.

we could all come to the unity that our Lord wishes us to have:

Ephesians 4:3 (KJV)
3 Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.

You've just given us all a wonderful definition of Irony. Thank you.

 

[rrowell]

Sin is not transmitted from one soul to another but the knowledge of evil is. When Adam and Eve ate the fruit of tree of knowledge of good and evil, sin entered them through the fruit in the form of the "evil knowledge".

Before Cain murdered his brother, look at what God spoke:

(Gen 4:7) "If you do well, will you not be accepted? And if you do not do well, sin lies at the door. And its desire [is] for you, but you should rule over it."

Sin lies at the door and we should rule over it. When a child is born sin enters him in the form of "evil knowledge within".

I believe when the child is born he enters a sinful natured world, once Adam (and Eve) sinned, there was a Curse:

Genesis 3:16-17 (KJV)
16 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.
17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;

The woman would have pain in child birth from this point on, he told Adam "cursed is the ground for thy sake", it was the ground he cursed, then "in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life".


There is no doubt the bible say's man when it comes to sin, man allowed or caused "sin" to enter the world, there is no doubt that after that day until now "sin" is all around us, man opened the door to satan... and amongst us he now dwells...



When a child is born into this world, he is born into a sin filled world, we are born sinless when we come into this world, but like Adam we learn to sin, easy to learn as it is one of the first things man comes in contact with after birth... what is difficult for man is to isolate him self from it...


Man cannot completely isolate himself and stay righteous, it is almost impossible. ( I say almost, because Jesus was born as a man, came into this world as a man, lived amongst the same sin as a man and he did it, he showed it is possible, but he knew the temptations brought to man and that he is destined to fail) because of this Christ died on the cross, paying for our sins, giving us a way to "Repent" and start anew...



Only by HIS Grace are we able to fend off the evil of the world we are born into, sin is not propagated by the birth of man, it is the dwelling of evil he is born into that tempts the man to defile himself.

 

[Danus]

I believe when the child is born he enters a sinful natured world, once Adam (and Eve) sinned, there was a Curse:

Genesis 3:16-17 (KJV)
16 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.
17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;

The woman would have pain in child birth from this point on, he told Adam "cursed is the ground for thy sake", it was the ground he cursed, then "in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life".


There is no doubt the bible say's man when it comes to sin, man allowed or caused "sin" to enter the world, there is no doubt that after that day until now "sin" is all around us, man opened the door to satan... and amongst us he now dwells...



When a child is born into this world, he is born into a sin filled world, we are born sinless when we come into this world, but like Adam we learn to sin, easy to learn as it is one of the first things man comes in contact with after birth... what is difficult for man is to isolate him self from it...


Man cannot completely isolate himself and stay righteous, it is almost impossible. ( I say almost, because Jesus was born as a man, came into this world as a man, lived amongst the same sin as a man and he did it, he showed it is possible, but he knew the temptations brought to man and that he is destined to fail) because of this Christ died on the cross, paying for our sins, giving us a way to "Repent" and start anew...



Only by HIS Grace are we able to fend off the evil of the world we are born into, sin is not propagated by the birth of man, it is the dwelling of evil he is born into that tempts the man to defile himself.

For anyone reading this not knowing the difference;This notion above is classic infused righteousness where by man is to "BE" sinless by his actions, thoughts, and behavior from the moment of his redemption.

If said saved man, screws up after being saved even one bit, he must ask for forgiveness and start the process all over again. He'll have to be 100% sinless upon his death; just like Christ, in order to enter haven. Otherwise he's doomed to hell despite his best efforts.

in this way Christ does not pay any debt on behalf of man, but man pays his own way to salvation.

So what we have here is a clearly salvation by WORKS of the individual and not by Christ, but what they will try to say is that Christ did the work on the cross, but only enough to allow people to ask for forgiveness and get a shot at being perfect like Christ.

The bible does not teach this at all, and those of you who understand the saving grace of God need not worry about this type of teaching.

Martin Luther worried up on this quite a bit in his day. He'd repent,and repent and repent. It's been said that Martin would confess his sins for forgiveness, then go right back to the confessional because he'd have a sinful thought from there to his room.

When he finally realized what grace actually meant he was able to understand where his salvation truly was; in Christ and not of his own effort. That's rebirth.

 

[farouk]

For anyone reading this not knowing the difference;This notion above is classic infused righteousness where by man is to "BE" sinless by his actions, thoughts, and behavior from the moment of his redemption.

If said saved man, screws up after being saved even one bit, he must ask for forgiveness and start the process all over again. He'll have to be 100% sinless upon his death; just like Christ, in order to enter haven. Otherwise he's doomed to hell despite his best efforts.

in this way Christ does not pay any debt on behalf of man, but man pays his own way to salvation.

So what we have here is a clearly salvation by WORKS of the individual and not by Christ, but what they will try to say is that Christ did the work on the cross, but only enough to allow people to ask for forgiveness and get a shot at being perfect like Christ.

The bible does not teach this at all, and those of you who understand the saving grace of God need not worry about this type of teaching.

Martin Luther worried up on this quite a bit in his day. He'd repent,and repent and repent. It's been said that Martin would confess his sins for forgiveness, then go right back to the confessional because he'd have a sinful thought from there to his room.

When he finally realized what grace actually meant he was able to understand where his salvation truly was; in Christ and not of his own effort. That's rebirth.

Yes, justification is a reckoning: God sees the believer as guiltless because the Lord Jesus bore the sins of all who trust in Him. This brings tremendous peace with God, through our Lord Jesus Christ (Romans 5.1).

 

[rrowell]

For anyone reading this not knowing the difference;This notion above is classic infused righteousness where by man is to "BE" sinless by his actions, thoughts, and behavior from the moment of his redemption.

If said saved man, screws up after being saved even one bit, he must ask for forgiveness and start the process all over again. He'll have to be 100% sinless upon his death; just like Christ, in order to enter haven. Otherwise he's doomed to hell despite his best efforts.

Peter here was addressing Simon who was a Christian, who committed a sin by trying to purchase communication of the holy spirit to others with his money (Acts 8:18-19), so we see a Christian CAN fall away from grace, and Peter tells him how to get it back:

Acts 8:22 (KJV)
22 Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray God, if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee.

Unless he repents of his sin, prays for forgiveness, he is condemned (otherwise why would Peter say this?)


Jesus said: Matthew 18:11 (KJV)
11 For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost.


Then he said in the very next verse:Matthew 18:12 (KJV)
12 How think ye? if a man have an hundred sheep, and one of them be gone astray, doth he not leave the ninety and nine, and goeth into the mountains, and seeketh that which is gone astray?


Note here Jesus says in this parable if he has a hundred Christians (they must be Christians as they are his Sheep) and one be lost (so it is possible for a Christian to be lost) that we are to try and turn the sheep back to the flock? does not the word "seek" mean there is a chance not to "find" and even if you find the lost sheep, does not the lost sheep have to follow the Shepard back to the flock?

Matthew 18:13 (KJV)
13 And if so be that he find it, verily I say unto you, he rejoiceth more of that sheep, than of the ninety and nine which went not astray.

"And if so be that he find it" implies the possibility exist it not be found!



Yet puts another hole in the once saved always saved.

in this way Christ does not pay any debt on behalf of man, but man pays his own way to salvation.

So what we have here is a clearly salvation by WORKS of the individual and not by Christ, but what they will try to say is that Christ did the work on the cross, but only enough to allow people to ask for forgiveness and get a shot at being perfect like Christ.

The bible does not teach this at all, and those of you who understand the saving grace of God need not worry about this type of teaching.

That is EXACTLY what the bible teaches, I have given scripture above where Simon (Who WAS a Christian who Christ "Paid for his sins", has fallen from Grace, and is just as lost (unless he repent) as he was before he became a Christian.

Martin Luther worried up on this quite a bit in his day. He'd repent,and repent and repent. It's been said that Martin would confess his sins for forgiveness, then go right back to the confessional because he'd have a sinful thought from there to his room.

When he finally realized what grace actually meant he was able to understand where his salvation truly was; in Christ and not of his own effort. That's rebirth.

Martin Luther tried to follow the Bible, but fell short of the true teachings and is by no means an inspired authority of the teaching of the bible any more than I, and for what it's worth and to his credit, Martin Luther did not agree with the Lutheran church wearing his name. ( he stated, "I beg that my name be not mentioned, and that people be called Christians, not Lutherans" (Tappert, 1987, p. 116).)

 

[Danus]

rrowell, I would like to commend you on your honesty and direct communication, your boldness.

I do appreciate your direct, and to the point thoughts. Something not often found in this subject, but something critically important when discussing this matter.

Thank you for that.

 

[felix]

He'll have to be 100% sinless upon his death; just like Christ, in order to enter haven. Otherwise he's doomed to hell despite his best efforts.

While I do not what to hijack this thread, just on this particular statement, I too thought the same before until God revealed something different. The real requirement is not 100% sinless but rather having the Holy Spirit. I recommend you to reading my blog (Why did Jesus Christ had to die?) where you will understand better.

 

[felix]

I believe when the child is born he enters a sinful natured world, once Adam (and Eve) sinned, there was a Curse:

Genesis 3:16-17 (KJV)
16 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.
17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;

The woman would have pain in child birth from this point on, he told Adam "cursed is the ground for thy sake", it was the ground he cursed, then "in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life".


There is no doubt the bible say's man when it comes to sin, man allowed or caused "sin" to enter the world, there is no doubt that after that day until now "sin" is all around us, man opened the door to satan... and amongst us he now dwells...



When a child is born into this world, he is born into a sin filled world, we are born sinless when we come into this world, but like Adam we learn to sin, easy to learn as it is one of the first things man comes in contact with after birth... what is difficult for man is to isolate him self from it...


Man cannot completely isolate himself and stay righteous, it is almost impossible. ( I say almost, because Jesus was born as a man, came into this world as a man, lived amongst the same sin as a man and he did it, he showed it is possible, but he knew the temptations brought to man and that he is destined to fail) because of this Christ died on the cross, paying for our sins, giving us a way to "Repent" and start anew...



Only by HIS Grace are we able to fend off the evil of the world we are born into, sin is not propagated by the birth of man, it is the dwelling of evil he is born into that tempts the man to defile himself.

While I tried to reply, I did not address the OP which I will connect it now.

God cursed man to death. Irrespective of whether man is born sinless or not, he is still cursed to death, born with sinful nature and needs a savior to have eternal life - or else, he is going to die. To have eternal life we need faith in Jesus Christ (1Tim 6:12) and this faith is righteousness, self-control and the fear of coming judgment as in Acts 24:24-25.

• "Faith Only" obviously means "without works" which scripture clearly spells out as "Dead" (Jas 2:17).
• Scripture also spells out "All have sinned" and "fall short of glory of God" (Rom 3:23) and we must repent for our sins.

 

[rrowell]

rrowell, I would like to commend you on your honesty and direct communication, your boldness.

I do appreciate your direct, and to the point thoughts. Something not often found in this subject, but something critically important when discussing this matter.

Thank you for that.

Thank you for the complement, I try to let the Bible do the talking, when one becomes wordy it is them that is talking and not the spirit of God, I prefer to do as little talking as possible, and let the Bible speak for its self, for in the Bible lay the truth, not in any man today... and the spirit will guide us to the meaning if we are prayerful and ask for understanding:

James 1:5 (KJV)
5 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.

Our salvation depends on this.

 

[Danus]

While I do not what to hijack this thread, just on this particular statement, I too thought the same before until God revealed something different. The real requirement is not 100% sinless but rather having the Holy Spirit. I recommend you to reading my blog (Why did Jesus Christ had to die?) where you will understand better.

FELIX....:toofunny..Reread ....what I wrote a little closer and you'll see I was speaking on "infused righteousness". Something I'm speaking against in this thread. I am a reformed protestant.
That should be quite clear.

 

[dadof10]

I know many Catholics. I have family, and friends who are Catholic, and at the heart of it I see no difference in true salvation. I am a reformed protestant.

However, there are differences in our church teachings and depending on how fundamental people want to be in regard to those teachings is where I see the big differences.

One example is purgatory. I could list more, but it's pointless to the discussion of salvation. I'm not a Catholic basher, and I believe that if a Protestant wants to dig into his own theology, he'd do well to respect the Catholic church. inversely, Catholics would also do well to understand the reformation from the higher protestant view in regards to the Gospel and the churches place.

I didn't mean there were not many differences in general, I meant your view of salvation ("I would alter the idea that faith alone saves to say that only God saves anyone. Our faith in God is also a gift to us from God. So, for me, God gives us a measure of faith, we respond to God, we are saved in that.") is exactly the Catholic view of salvation. It's God that gives us the will to "work" and accomplishes the work through us. Grace alone.

I don't regard responding to faith and the grace of God as a work. A Work to me is something instituted by me at my own will, and I reject this notion completely when it comes to salvation. I accept a very high protestant view of salvation that places the emphasis totally on God and His will to save whom he will save.

OK. Is responding to baptism, keeping the commandments, charity, etc. "works"? If not, how are our responses to these things different from our response to faith? Faith is an action. We must mentally accept or trust IN ORDER to be saved. If God is the One working through us (giving us the will and the action) when it comes to faith, couldn't the same be said for any other act the Bible says "saves"? After all, it clearly says "baptism, which now saves you", and "keep the commandments" to gain eternal life, and "For he will render to every man according to his works:..." Again, why is the action of having faith salvific, yet the action of baptism (for example) not?

I do however, see value in the idea of man seeking God for salvation. How those two notions fit I can't say for sure, other than to say God institutes the work and effort of those who seek him. Again, I lean heavily to that.

Me too. Again we agree. You couldn't guess how many times the charge of "cop-out" has been leveled at me when I say we must DO to be saved, yet it's God that DOES through us, and the exact marriage of the two is a mystery. See, we aren't as far apart as you would think. We only barely touched on purgatory and predestination, though.

 

[Kidron]

Yet puts another hole in the once saved always saved.

Only in your mind.^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
However, in the mind of a Christian who understands that we are eternally secure based on Christ's atonement, we understand that we could not "lose our salvation" if we tried, and this is because, you cant be unborn again.

And you cant lose your salvation based on sinning after you are saved because, all your sins are paid for.., INCLUDING your future sins.

So, as you cant be unborn again, and as you cant sin your salvation away, you are as eternally secure as Christ is in you.

As a matter of fact, your bible tells you that you are SEALED until the day of redemption in Ephesians 4:30 and the context is grieving the Holy Spirit.
So, even in the context of grieving the holy Spirit, you are still sealed.


And finally, to "fall from Grace", is to return to a type of works based ritual lifestyle to try to keep yourself saved.
Try reading the letter written to the Galatians for an update.





K

 

[felix]

Only in your mind.^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
However, in the mind of a Christian who understands that we are eternally secure based on Christ's atonement, we understand that we could not "lose our salvation" if we tried, and this is because, you cant be unborn again.

And you cant lose your salvation based on sinning after you are saved because, all your sins are paid for.., INCLUDING your future sins.

So, as you cant be unborn again, and as you cant sin your salvation away, you are as eternally secure as Christ is in you.

As a matter of fact, your bible tells you that you are SEALED until the day of redemption in Ephesians 4:30 and the context is grieving the Holy Spirit.
So, even in the context of grieving the holy Spirit, you are still sealed.


And finally, to "fall from Grace", is to return to a type of works based ritual lifestyle to try to keep yourself saved.
Try reading the letter written to the Galatians for an update.





K

What makes you think the person is saved and born again at the first place when his qualities reflect otherwise later in his/her life?

Christ knows His sheep and His sheep WILL hear His voice and He will never lose it. If someone does not reflect His qualities later in His life or denied Him later, the issue is not about "losing" salvation but was "never born again" at the first place because NO ONE having the Spirit of God will deny Christ nor walk in path of sin.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

If true faith only saved, then no works would ever be necessary.

That's like saying if going swimming is all that is necessary, then getting wet would never be necessary.

Getting wet is the necessary result of going swimming, but some people seem to think you can go swimming (have faith in Christ) without getting wet (be righteous). But the truth is, if you ain't wet...you didn't go swimming, or stopped going swimming.

That's what James 2 is all about. If you ain't wet with the righteousness of Christ you don't have the legitimate experience of going swimming! You don't remedy that by making yourself wet (doing things). You remedy it by going swimming--having faith in Christ, the faith that saves, which then results in you being righteous.

That is how works must accompany faith in Christ. The faith, all by itself, making you clean and righteous before God. Not as you are suggesting that the works have to be performed to be made righteous before God. The works are the result of being made righteous through faith in Christ all by itself.

 

[rrowell]

Only in your mind.^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
However, in the mind of a Christian who understands that we are eternally secure based on Christ's atonement, we understand that we could not "lose our salvation" if we tried, and this is because, you cant be unborn again.

And you cant lose your salvation based on sinning after you are saved because, all your sins are paid for.., INCLUDING your future sins.

So, as you cant be unborn again, and as you cant sin your salvation away, you are as eternally secure as Christ is in you.

I have just shown biblical proof of a "Christian" that has fallen away requiring "Repentance" ill show it again:

Acts 8:18-22 (KJV)
18 And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles' hands the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money,
19 Saying, Give me also this power, that on whomsoever I lay hands, he may receive the Holy Ghost.
20But Peter said unto him, Thy money perish with thee, because thou hast thought that the gift of God may be purchased with money.
21 Thou hast neither part nor lot in this matter: for thy heart is not right in the sight of God.
22 Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray God, if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee.

As a matter of fact, your bible tells you that you are SEALED until the day of redemption in Ephesians 4:30 and the context is grieving the Holy Spirit.
So, even in the context of grieving the holy Spirit, you are still sealed.

What Ephesians 4:30 tells us is the Spirit is Gods medium of communications to man, what pleases God, Pleases the Spirit, what pleases the Spirit pleases God, if you "grieve the Holy Spirit" you "grieve God" and he (God) will turn against you:

Isaiah 63:10 (KJV)
10 But they rebelled, and vexed his holy Spirit: therefore he was turned to be their enemy, and he fought against them.

the New King James renders the text this way:
Isaiah 63:10 (NKJV)
10 But they rebelled and grieved His Holy Spirit; So He turned Himself against them as an enemy, And He fought against them.

I see no proof of once saved always saved here? in fact you have proven just the opposite.

And finally, to "fall from Grace", is to return to a type of works based ritual lifestyle to try to keep yourself saved.

Yep:

James 2:17 (KJV)
17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

Try reading the letter written to the Galatians for an update.

Okay, but I don't think it changed since I last read it?

K[/QUOTE]

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Hmm, well I do not understand the "faith only crowd" in this way. The transformation that takes place through faith would lead the new creation in Christ to renounce stealing and make restitution (i.e. return any stolen goods).

If faith takes hold of both the forgiveness and transformation made available by the Spirit through the work of Christ on the cross, it contains an element of repentance. Repentance and faith need not be considered mutually exclusive concepts. In fact, I think that splitting them contributes to much confusion.

But returning the stolen goods is a work. Therefore if the Christian does not do this work then he will be lost (1 Cor 6:9,10) and that has the faith only crowd (and those that believe in eternal security) up in arms.

 

[rrowell]

I am sure Mr. Bass can speak to this himself, but....

You don't remedy that by making yourself wet (doing things). You remedy it by going swimming--having faith in Christ

isn't "going swimming" the same as "doing things", you see, every point once saved always saved makes always leads to contradiction either in what they say, or what they quote from the Bible...

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

That's like saying if going swimming is all that is necessary, then getting wet would never be necessary.

Getting wet is the necessary result of going swimming, but some people seem to think you can go swimming (have faith in Christ) without getting wet (be righteous). But the truth is, if you ain't wet...you didn't go swimming, or stopped going swimming.

That's what James 2 is all about. If you ain't wet with the righteousness of Christ you don't have the legitimate experience of going swimming! You don't remedy that by making yourself wet (doing things). You remedy it by going swimming--having faith in Christ, the faith that saves, which then results in you being righteous.

That is how works must accompany faith in Christ. The faith, all by itself, making you clean and righteous before God. Not as you are suggesting that the works have to be performed to be made righteous before God. The works are the result of being made righteous through faith in Christ all by itself.

So if getting wet is necessary to swimming, then you are making works (getting wet) necessary for salvation (swimming).


Let me ask this: can a person be saved and not ever do any obedient works? A simple "yes" or "no" please.