The Work of Repentance Versus Faith Only

[Ernest T. Bass]

The problem comes in when someone suggests the repentance itself has some kind of atoning power in and of itself that adds to the power of the blood of Christ. Faith does the justifying all by itself. That is what is meant by 'faith, apart from works'. That does not mean repentance doesn't have to accompany faith. It means the faith that justifies all by itself must be seen in a changed nature or the faith you claim you have is not the faith that justifies all by itself.

Our commanded duty is to show the 'justification by faith apart from works' that we claim we have by what we do, just as Abraham showed the righteousness of his justification by faith by what he did. That way we can know for ourselves that we really do have the faith that justifies (apart from works), or not. And if we find that we come up short we can do something about it and not be deceived into thinking we have the faith that justifies all by itself, apart from works, when we really don't.

I've never suggested that repentance can atone for sins in and of itself. What I am saying is that Christ has made repentance a necessary condition that must be met before He will forgive sins just as having faith is a necessary condition that must be met before one can be saved.

Faith therefore MUST include repentance for a faith apart from works is a dead faith and a dead faith can never save.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Every time you almost suggest that you actually understand the FREE GIFT of Salvation, you find a way to run back to works to prove you really have not accepted the free gift..

Here is the situation.....
A person ither allows God to save them for FREE, based on the atonement, or they dont.
Your problem, and its the problem of a lot of religious people who understand faith, but cant accept it as God designed , is the fact that you have confused discipleship with salvation.
You are confusing what you do AFTER you are saved, with your idea that they are the same.
They are not.
Salvation is NOT discipleship.
What God did for you, is a free gift, that is given based on you doing NOTHING but believing just like Abraham did.
Following your born again by faith conversion,.. you are become a disciple of Christ and in this, you are to do some things.
But if you DONT, you are not suddely unborn again, or lost,....you are simply not being a good disciple, not being obedient..
However, you became a disciple, not based on works, but based on faith/belief and you works or lack of them after your conversion cant undo your regeneration.

Your bible says that "Abraham BELIEVED GOD and it was ACCOUNTED TO HIM FOR RIGHTEOUSNESS".
Its does not say..."Abraham was willing to offer up his son and so God accepted him based on his willingness to cut his boy's throat".
Now, do you understand this??????????
God gave Abraham RIGHTEOUSNESS BEFORE he offered the son.......and it was a done deal.
Its the same for a believer in 2012........God takes our sins, lays them on Christ, and he takes the righteousness of Christ and lays it on us when we BELIEVE.
In that INSTANT.
Its a done deal.
After this, you are to be a good disciple, BECAUSE you are saved and not to BE saved.
So get that...
Stop confusing discipleship works with free salvation, and you'll be able to understand GRACE, hopefully.
Till you do, you will continue to try to combine works + salvation = saved......... which is not the truth.
It is not the truth to confuse the free gift of salvation with "works'.
It is error and theological rubbish to preach that works, which cant save you before the cross, have the ability to save you or keep you saved AFTER the Cross.



K

Jn 6:27 "Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed. "


Everlasting life is something Christ gives, he gives it for free yet He plainly said to work for this everlasting life. Why would He say work for everlasting life when He gives it for free?

 

[Elijah674]

Jn 6:27 "Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed. "


Everlasting life is something Christ gives, he gives it for free yet He plainly said to work for this everlasting life. Why would He say work for everlasting life when He gives it for free?

Why?? Because Everlasting Life is given ONLY on condition that we follow His Plan. The return from 'eternal' death for Adam REQUIRED OBEDIENCE!
--Elijah

 

[rrowell]

You're putting an incorrect spin on it.


James' 'faith alone' is NOT the same as Paul's 'faith apart from works'. Don't get the two confused and so misunderstand the argument. Paul says faith all by itself, apart from righteous works, is what justifies a person (makes them righteous before God). Works CAN NOT make a person righteous before God. Never has, never will. I'd be surprised if you disagreed with that

.

I have not put a spin on anything, I quoted scripture that the faith James speaks of makes "works" a requirement for salvation "faith without works is dead" is pretty clear...

It is you that puts a spin on the faith Paul speaks of, Paul was saying the "works" of the Jewish Law would not save them, but the faith through Christ, and the faith threw Christ requires works, so says James...

Let me ask you this, at what point in your doctrine does a man become penitent?

 

[rrowell]

Why?? Because Everlasting Life is given ONLY on condition that we follow His Plan. The return from 'eternal' death for Adam REQUIRED OBEDIENCE!
--Elijah

Are you referring to the born with Adams sin again? if so, where in the Bible would you prove this?

 

[Danus]

Okay, lets get to the basics, this has gotten so large we need to start with the basics so as not to confuse anyone and allow text to be out of context so as to make it read what we want, and not what it says, I will start with a simple question and would like a strait forward answer (and should be a simple answer as a "yes" or "no".)

Do you believe all of the Bible is given to us by inspired men (through the inspiration of God) and that because of this, the Bible "cannot" contradict it self?

Yes or No, because if the answer is no, it is not possible to find truth in it, what say you?

It's been a few days since I answered your last bit, about man kind born into sin (Born sinners) and how God saves us, how we receive salvation and what exactly is meant in the verses you gave me.

If you have a question about what I answered, or feel un-reconciled in what I've provided, then ask me a question about that and I'll be happy to answer it, but I have to assume it made good sense to you and you have accepted it, because if it did not I've no reason to continue. as I've stated, we can agree to disagree. I've no cause to force biblical interpretative for anyone who does not accept it. That's not my job or my obligation. ;)

Your questions here about the divine nature of the bible are unclear, but I will tell you that there are absolutely no contradictions in the bible, nor is there anything to be ignored or left out as it is, it is perfectly divinely inspired by God and as a whole is to be taken systemically from start to finish.

 

[rrowell]

Every time you almost suggest that you actually understand the FREE GIFT of Salvation, you find a way to run back to works to prove you really have not accepted the free gift..

K

First things first, your getting angry, we are not here to argue, but to seek the truth...

James 1:19 (KJV)
19 Wherefore, my beloved brethren, let every man be swift to hear, slow to speak, slow to wrath:

Now on to the second thing...

Now I have never seen him (Mr. Bass) say anywhere the words "works to prove you really have not accepted the free gift.." but what I did see him correctly say is salvation is a free gift, but requires works to attain it... liken it to if I said you can have my truck for free, but you have to come and get it... you have to do something "works" to get my free truck...

faith its self is a command:

Hebrews 11:6 (KJV)
6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.


Faith, Belief, Repentance, they are all commands, it is impossible to comply with a command without doing something therefore "works" is a requirement, it is free to all men (salvation) through Grace, but you need to seek it.

 

[rrowell]

It's been a few days since I answered your last bit, about man kind born into sin (Born sinners) and how God saves us, how we receive salvation and what exactly is meant in the verses you gave me.

If you have a question about what I answered, or feel un-reconciled in what I've provided, then ask me a question about that and I'll be happy to answer it, but I have to assume it made good sense to you and you have accepted it, because if it did not I've no reason to continue. as I've stated, we can agree to disagree. I've no cause to force biblical interpretative for anyone who does not accept it. That's not my job or my obligation. ;)

Your questions here about the divine nature of the bible are unclear, but I will tell you that there are absolutely no contradictions in the bible, nor is there anything to be ignored or left out as it is, it is perfectly divinely inspired by God and as a whole is to be taken systemically from start to finish.

That is good, we agree the bible is "the truth", so what does this scripture say to us:

Ezekiel 18:19-20 (KJV)
19 Yet say ye, Why? doth not the son bear the iniquity of the father? When the son hath done that which is lawful and right, and hath kept all my statutes, and hath done them, he shall surely live.
20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Now I have never seen him (Mr. Bass) say anywhere the words "works to prove you really have not accepted the free gift.."

Correct. Mr. E. Bass did not say them. I did. (When I have the energy I'll jump into Kidron's post).

...but what I did see him correctly say is salvation is a free gift, but requires works to attain it... liken it to if I said you can have my truck for free, but you have to come and get it... you have to do something "works" to get my free truck...

But in regard to spiritual matters, the work shows you really did believe that it was yours for free and that you really want and appreciate it, and that's it's not a reward for getting up off the couch to get it. See the difference? This has everything to do with perception, but that is exactly how we will be judged in regard to salvation. The self righteousness of 'getting up off the couch' (if that's what it really means to a person) will not be honored on the Day of Redemption.

faith its self is a command:

Yes it is, but this in no way makes faith a behavior, or something we manufacture on our own.

Faith, Belief, Repentance, they are all commands, it is impossible to comply with a command without doing something therefore "works" is a requirement, it is free to all men (salvation) through Grace, but you need to seek it.

The 'doing something' of faith is believing. In the case of salvation that means believing and trusting in that which you now have the God given faith to know is true even though you can't see it (the forgiveness of God in Christ).

The 'doing something' of having placed your trust in the blood of Christ for the forgiveness of sin (the believing) is the doing of righteous things in gratitude and appreciation of the grace you have received from God through your faith. You aren't justified by that show of appreciation and acceptance of God's forgiveness. You are justified because you had faith in God's promise to forgive your sins. Your show of appreciation and acceptance of God is the evidence and proof that you have been justified on the sole merit of your faith in Christ, all by itself. And as I will explain to Kidron, that hardly equates to a works gospel--that is, knowing justification by faith apart from the merit of righteous work must be able to be seen, sooner or later, in how a person behaves.

It's like going swimming. Did you go swimming because you got wet? Or did you get wet because you went swimming. Getting wet is only a required part of going swimming in that it is the expected and obligatory result of having gone swimming. Just go swimming! The getting wet part will follow as the unavoidable consequence of having gone swimming...that is if you really went swimming. Do I need to explain?

 

[BobE]

On another forum, I made the argument that the very idea of repentance requires restitution/reparation. So if you steal your neighbors horse and repent, then true repentance requires you to return the stolen horse else you have not truly repented/changed. If you do not have to return the horse and it is acceptable to keep the stolen horse, then what would you have to repent of?

Those on the other side, mostly of the 'faith only' persuasion argued one does not have to return the horse. They argued essentially that if repentance requires a work, then I would have a "works based salvation". And that if my salvation hinged upon the work of returning the horse, then I would be trying to earn/merit my salvation by returning the stolen horse, therefore I could keep it.


What say you :

I think it's easy to overanalyze issues like this, and possibly overcomplicate what is essentially a straightforward message.

That which God offers to us comes to us through faith, we're told. But what is he offering? Love, freedom, forgiveness, transformation; the Bible mentions all of these concepts and more.

What I receive by faith does produce a changed life. You may call this what you will (repentance, restitution etc.), but I do not believe it is opposed to a gospel of grace experienced by faith. My two cents

 

[BobE]

I've never suggested that repentance can atone for sins in and of itself. What I am saying is that Christ has made repentance a necessary condition that must be met before He will forgive sins just as having faith is a necessary condition that must be met before one can be saved.

Faith therefore MUST include repentance for a faith apart from works is a dead faith and a dead faith can never save.

I think the kind of faith James is talking about, as cited by another poster, is one that trusts God for more than just forgiveness. It trusts him for forgiveness and transformation. Jesus died not just so that we could be forgiven, but so that we can be free (e.g. Romans chapter 6). Faith that only seeks forgiveness, according to James, would be the wrong kind of faith.

Salvation is received by faith alone, we're told, but this salvation includes a new birth, a new nature, and a new direction in life. I thank God for that. I work with many addicts who value freedom at least as much, if not more, than forgiveness. In believing in Jesus, they were trusting God for change. Some might label that repentance. Some might call that a work, but it is not. The actual transformation comes from God; it is not of human origin. In ourselves we are incapable of effecting it. We can, however, experience it, I believe, when we rest in what God has done for us in Jesus Christ.

 

[Kidron]

Jn 6:27 "Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed. "


Everlasting life is something Christ gives, he gives it for free yet He plainly said to work for this everlasting life. Why would He say work for everlasting life when He gives it for free?

Salvation is a free gift.
FREE......................GIFT.
its based on the finished work of Jesus.
FINISHED.......................WORK.
He did the work.
We dont do the work.
We RECEIVE the work, by faith.

I'll tell you what.

Jesus and Paul in one corner, and all the "works to be saved", or "baptised in water to be saved", in the other corner.
Now, tell Jesus during this debate that his cross and his death and his resurrection do not pay for sins based on our believing it,....but rather, go and grab a scripture and twist it and tell them that water or "living right" saves you.
Then tell Paul that "grace through faith without works", is just a wrong interpretation of what Jesus TOLD HIM PERSONALLY to tell YOU.
It should be an interesting discussion for you.
A bit aggravating for Them, but interesting for you....



K

 

[Danus]

That is good, we agree the bible is "the truth", so what does this scripture say to us:

Ezekiel 18:19-20 (KJV)
19 Yet say ye, Why? doth not the son bear the iniquity of the father? When the son hath done that which is lawful and right, and hath kept all my statutes, and hath done them, he shall surely live.
20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

Did you have a question about this verse?

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

I think it's easy to overanalyze issues like this, and possibly overcomplicate what is essentially a straightforward message.

That which God offers to us comes to us through faith, we're told. But what is he offering? Love, freedom, forgiveness, transformation; the Bible mentions all of these concepts and more.

What I receive by faith does produce a changed life. You may call this what you will (repentance, restitution etc.), but I do not believe it is opposed to a gospel of grace experienced by faith. My two cents

Nothing complicated here. The idea puts the faith only crowd in the bad position of having to justify stealing, keeping stolen merchandise before they would ever admit that the obedient work of repentance/reparation is necessary to be saved.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

I think the kind of faith James is talking about, as cited by another poster, is one that trusts God for more than just forgiveness. It trusts him for forgiveness and transformation. Jesus died not just so that we could be forgiven, but so that we can be free (e.g. Romans chapter 6). Faith that only seeks forgiveness, according to James, would be the wrong kind of faith.

Salvation is received by faith alone, we're told, but this salvation includes a new birth, a new nature, and a new direction in life. I thank God for that. I work with many addicts who value freedom at least as much, if not more, than forgiveness. In believing in Jesus, they were trusting God for change. Some might label that repentance. Some might call that a work, but it is not. The actual transformation comes from God; it is not of human origin. In ourselves we are incapable of effecting it. We can, however, experience it, I believe, when we rest in what God has done for us in Jesus Christ.

We are not told by the bible that salvation is received by faith only. We are told faith only is dead being empty of works and a dead faith only cannot save.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Salvation is a free gift.
FREE......................GIFT.
its based on the finished work of Jesus.
FINISHED.......................WORK.
He did the work.
We dont do the work.
We RECEIVE the work, by faith.

I'll tell you what.

Jesus and Paul in one corner, and all the "works to be saved", or "baptised in water to be saved", in the other corner.
Now, tell Jesus during this debate that his cross and his death and his resurrection do not pay for sins based on our believing it,....but rather, go and grab a scripture and twist it and tell them that water or "living right" saves you.
Then tell Paul that "grace through faith without works", is just a wrong interpretation of what Jesus TOLD HIM PERSONALLY to tell YOU.
It should be an interesting discussion for you.
A bit aggravating for Them, but interesting for you....



K

Yes, we agree that everlasting life is a free gift that Christ gives, but you did not address the fact that Jesus said to labour for this gift that He gives.


Jesus and Paul both preached the necessity of works. Jesus once asked, 'why call ye me Lord, Lord and do not the things which I say?' Jesus said those who do the will of the Father enter the kingdom of heaven.

In Rom 6:16 Paul says you serve one of two masters, you either serve:
1) sin unto death or
2) obedience unto righteousness.
I serve #2. Your theology rules out #2 so that only leaves you with #1.

 

[rrowell]

Did you have a question about this verse?

I believe that was a question, yes... Ill ask it again, please tell me what this scripture tells us:

Ezekiel 18:19-20 (KJV)
19 Yet say ye, Why? doth not the son bear the iniquity of the father? When the son hath done that which is lawful and right, and hath kept all my statutes, and hath done them, he shall surely live.
20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

 

[rrowell]

I'll tell you what.

Jesus and Paul in one corner, and all the "works to be saved", or "baptised in water to be saved", in the other corner.
Now, tell Jesus during this debate that his cross and his death and his resurrection do not pay for sins based on our believing it,....but rather, go and grab a scripture and twist it and tell them that water or "living right" saves you.
Then tell Paul that "grace through faith without works", is just a wrong interpretation of what Jesus TOLD HIM PERSONALLY to tell YOU.
It should be an interesting discussion for you.
A bit aggravating for Them, but interesting for you....K

Who in there right religious mind tell Jesus his death did not pay for our sins, and I have not seen Mr. Bass, myself, or anyone else claim this...

Jesus himself said water baptism saves us, why would he be in an opposite corner?:

John 3:5 (KJV)
5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

As for Paul, Why would he be in an opposing corner? I have clearly stated and quoted his penning the "Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ" (taken from Gal 2:16) says "works" (as described here by Paul) will not save you.

The problem arises with your interpretation of what Paul refers to as "works", Paul here in this verse refers to the "Works of the Jewish Law", Not the works James refers to here :

James 2:14 (KJV)
14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

I can use both these scriptures to prove faith and works are a requirement for salvation, you cannot as your understanding only brings these two scriptures to contradiction which we know the bible does not do...

When Paul said "but by the faith of Jesus Christ" in Gal 2:16, he is describing the very same "faith" that James talks about that requires "works" in James 2:17:

James 2:17 (KJV)
17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

Your misunderstanding comes from the fact you confuse the "works" Paul speaks of with the "works" James speaks of believing they are referring the same thing, Paul is condemning the "works of the Jewish Law", but telling them it is the "faith" that comes through Christ, and that "faith" requires "works" so says James, else these two scriptures contradict each other and again we know the Bible does not contradict its self...

 

[rrowell]

It's like going swimming. Did you go swimming because you got wet? Or did you get wet because you went swimming. Getting wet is only a required part of going swimming in that it is the expected and obligatory result of having gone swimming. Just go swimming! The getting wet part will follow as the unavoidable consequence of having gone swimming...that is if you really went swimming. Do I need to explain?

Just look at your post and all the verbs you have in your story line, every verb you used describes an action, you cannot get wet, you cannot go swimming, you cannot even get to the pool without "doing" something and "doing" is synonymous with "work",

Therefore salvation requires (verbs underlined):
1. Hear the gospel
2. Believe
3. Repent
4. Confess Jesus is the Christ our Lord and Savior
5. Be Baptized for the remission of sin

Then, and ONLY then will he add you to his Church.

With all those Verbs, Synonymous with "work" (look them up) in your story line and the road to salvation, there is much "work" to be done to be saved. and it does not stop there...

We must continue to walk in newness of life. :
Romans 6:4 (KJV)
4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

 

[reba]

what does one do to 'get' born?