The Work of Repentance Versus Faith Only

[felix]

That both have concluded wrongly that salavation is "Jesus/Cross + something you do = salvation.
And the fact is, nothing but your faith the shed blood of Jesus, his death and his resurrection, can purge, remit, and forgive, your sins.

(John 3:16) "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
Looks like Jesus Cross did not achieve Salvation or eternal life. it seems to me the verse says:
Jesus/Cross + [believing in Him by us] = salvation.


(Heb 5:9) And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him,
Looks like He is not the author of salvation to all either. But only to those who obey Him.
Jesus/Cross + [Obeying Him by us] = salvation.

Believing and obeying His commandments is still a required "work by us" to achieve Salvation.

 

[stovebolts]

Felix,

Jesus said that he was "The Way" and his early followers were considered followers of "The Way".

My son obeys me because he trusts me. He knows that I've got his best interest in mind and he wants to please me. I love my child and there is nothing he can do to earn my love and devotion for him. I believe this is similar to our obedience to Christ. We obey Christ because we love him like a child loves his father, and because we trust that Jesus has our back.. He's not going to leave us or abandon us, and he always has our best interest in mind.

Is this work? Absolutely, but it's a sanctifying work that holds a reward, not a wage.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Just look at your post and all the verbs you have in your story line, every verb you used describes an action, you cannot get wet, you cannot go swimming, you cannot even get to the pool without "doing" something and "doing" is synonymous with "work",

Therefore salvation requires (verbs underlined):
1. Hear the gospel
2. Believe
3. Repent
4. Confess Jesus is the Christ our Lord and Savior
5. Be Baptized for the remission of sin

Then, and ONLY then will he add you to his Church.

Cornelius was added to the church at steps 2-3, as evidenced by the giving of the Spirit (unbelievers do not have the gifts that are given to the body of Christ). It's Biblically impossible to defend your list as a hard and fast formula for being saved. You have to lie to yourself to think otherwise.

Do some people get saved with step 5? Of course. But it also true many get saved at step 2-3. I was born again by the Spirit at step 2-3. Most of the Christians I know were born again at step 2-3. Does that mean we don't have to have righteous behavior? Of course not, but that seems to be the only thing C.O.C. and similar doctrine can hear in our argument.

With all those Verbs, Synonymous with "work" (look them up) in your story line and the road to salvation, there is much "work" to be done to be saved. and it does not stop there...

Hearing the gospel is not behavior. Faith that the message is true is not behavior. Trust in what you have the faith to know is true is not a behavior. The changing the mind part of repentance is not a behavior.

Abraham was declared righteous by his faith in God's promise, not his behavior. And Paul says that was written for us, who are also declared righteous by our faith in God's promise of a Son, not by our behavior. To say you were declared righteous because you performed righteous work is the very definition of the damnable works gospel.

We must continue to walk in newness of life. :
Romans 6:4 (KJV)
4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

You must continue to have faith. And how we KNOW we are continuing in the faith that justifies (all by itself) is by our obedience to the commands of God, specifically 'love your neighbor as yourself' (the ceremonial requirements of the law having been fulfilled one time for all by the sacrifice of Jesus and no longer having to be fulfilled literally).

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Believing and obeying His commandments is still a required "work by us" to achieve Salvation.

Righteous work must follow faith for that faith to be validated as the faith that justifies all by itself apart from the merit of work, not in order for that righteous work to now be credited to our account as righteousness, but to validate our faith as able to justify us all by itself.

 

[Danus]

I believe that was a question, yes... Ill ask it again, please tell me what this scripture tells us:

Ezekiel 18:19-20 (KJV)
19 Yet say ye, Why? doth not the son bear the iniquity of the father? When the son hath done that which is lawful and right, and hath kept all my statutes, and hath done them, he shall surely live.
20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

Sure. Let's look at what it does not mean so that we can understand what it does mean.

Using this verse to say that we are not born into sin, or that we have not inherited a sin nature from Adam, or that we are not guilty of sin, shows a gross misunderstanding of scripture, and a lack of the whole of biblical knowledge, in terms of context, definition and systematic theology.

Usually those using this particular verse out of context will ask something like; "Are children to be punished for the iniquity of the fathers or not?" and then they will site these scriptures as un-reconcilable and contradictory; Deuteronomy 1:39; 24:16, Ezekiel 18:2-4,17,19,20, Exodus 20:5, Isaiah 14:2. If you read those you'll see what I mean.

In that case the Answer would be: We know that it is contrary to the character of God to visit the iniquity of the fathers upon those who are innocent (Ezekiel 18:19). Exodus 20:5, on the surface, does seem to teach that God visits the iniquity of the Father on the children.

However, by really reading it in more depth, it actually says the opposite. Only the children who "hate God", and sin themselves, are the ones who are punished, only the wicked and ungodly children who are following the wicked example of their fathers are punished. The very next verse (Exodus 20:6) confirms that God shows mercy on the children who love Him and keep his Law. This is in harmony with the teaching, "Each man shall die for his own sins" (2 Chronicles 25:4, Ezekiel 18:4,20).

However, we have been discussing the sin nature of man. I have stated from the bible that we are all born sinners, to which you disagree. You sited some verses that I cleared up for you, but you never acknowledged it so I assume you are either avoiding it, or holding out for more. So, in order to address you, we'll have to take a little walk through the bible. Here we go.

The bible tells us that this world is evil, that Satan rules and all of this is due to the fall of man from the first Adam, and that all of man is effected with sin.

The problem Christians often have is that we don't like this fact. We want to think that the world is not so corrupt and that there is goodness in it, or if it is corrupt, we are not a part of it.

And so, we set up false constructs of good in our actions, thoughts and deeds. We do this because at the very least, our intent is to be good. We establish institutions of "goodness" and we say it's in the name of God because we, like God, are good.

We do this because we want to be on God's side. We want to be good, but that's not what God says of us. He says none of us are good, but he is, and if we will place our trust in him, we can be saved to that which we are not,(Good) from that which we actually are,(sinful and corrupt) but to believe that requires us to truly trust it, and to truly trust it requires us give up on ourselves, our efforts, and had it over to the one who is good, and to do that requires faith, and faith is a gift from God, not of ourselves........That's a head full right there, but let's focus on the corrupt sinful nature of man which is applicable to all men from birth.

I have found a well worded piece on the web that speaks to what I've said so far, and I will share it with you here.

http://contendforthefaith2.com/original.html

Our view of the human race is too high. We think that people are better than they really are, that people are basically good by nature. Sure, everyone does bad things once in a while, but people are good at heart--we think. But things are actually a lot worse than we think. Our perspective is distorted, and we need the truth of God's word to clear away the fog from our understanding and tell us how things really are. And God, who knows the hearts of all people, says that humans are not basically good at heart, but are basically sinful. In fact, the whole human race has fallen into sin, and therefore we are all born sinful.

If we are going to have an accurate view of ourselves and the greatness of God's grace that rescues believers from sin, we must see the world the way God sees it. In fact, one aspect of our spiritual growth is that our new nature is "being renewed in knowledge after the image of its creator" (Colossians 3:10). In order to bring ourselves closer to God's view of the world, we will examine the following five truths that He has revealed in Scripture.

1. Humans are created in the image of God.
2. Humans are all born sinful as a result of the sin of Adam, the first human.
3. Humans are all born fully sinful--there is no moral good in us.
4. God changes the hearts of all those who trust in Christ, thereby giving them moral goodness and the ability to do good things.
5. Everything that unbelievers do is sin, because they are still in the state of utter sinfulness that they were born with.​

As we will see in this article, it is of great importance that we understand these truths. If we do not, it can have terrible consequences in our lives such as pride, lack of trust in God, lack of gratefulness to God for the salvation He gives in Christ, and great dishonor to the name of God.

We are created in the image of God Genesis 1:27 says "And God created man in His own image, in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them." We are created in God's image. This means that we are like God and that we represent God.[1] For the sake of space, we are only going to examine how we are like God.

There are two main ways in which, as originally created, we were like God. The first way we will call the spiritual image of God.[2] We are similar (though not identical) to God in that we will remain forever, we have the ability to think and reason, we know right from wrong, we can form relationships with others, we have affections, and we have immaterial spirits. The second way we resembled God is in our moral character. We will call this the moral image of God. Since God originally created Adam and Eve without sin, they not only had the spiritual image of God, but were also like God in respect to His moral character--they did righteousness, loved holiness, loved one another, and were good by nature. The moral image of God meant that we used our spiritual image of God to honor Him.

When Adam sinned, the human race lost its moral likeness to God. We stopped reflecting God's goodness, love, holiness and other moral qualities, and started defying God's moral excellence. In that sense the image of God is now lost in us. But the image of God is not lost in regards to all respects, because we still have the spiritual image of God. Genesis 9:6, referring to humans born after the fall, says "in the image of God He made man." Humans are still in the spiritual image of God (see also James 3:9; Genesis 5:1-3), however, we have lost the moral perfections of this image. Because we lack the moral image of God, we now use our spiritual image to defy God and attack His glory.

Before moving on to understand just how badly we ruined ourselves, the simple fact that humans are still in the image of God should make us understand two things. First, there is great dignity in being human. Humanity has value. Even now that we are sinful, and there is no moral goodness in us, we still have significance. Wayne Grudem writes that "this has profound implications for our conduct toward others. It means that people of every race deserve equal dignity and rights. It means that elderly people, those seriously ill, the mentally retarded, and children yet unborn, deserve full protection and honor as human beings."[3] Second, this truth that we have corrupted the moral image of God in us, and that we are still in His spiritual image, should nail home to us how terrible sin really is. Because we were originally in the moral image of God, we were given one of the highest responsibilities God could have given us--to display His moral greatness to creation. And we blew it. The greater the responsibility that is violated, the greater the sin. And we have violated one of the greatest possible responsibilities. And because are in the spiritual image of God, we have corrupted something of great importance. What a terrible thing that we stopped using our spiritual likeness to God for the purpose of loving God, and started using it for the purpose of sinning against God.

Humans are all born sinful as a result of the sin of Adam, the first human Original sin
The Bible teaches that Adam's sin had two main effects on the human race. The first is that it is imputed to everyone. This means that we are all counted guilty for what he did. When Adam was tested in the Garden of Eden, He was acting as the representative of the entire human race. Therefore we share in the blame for his sin. I have written on this doctrine, called imputed sin, in an article called "Born Guilty." What we are going to examine in this article is the second effect that Adam's sin had, called original sin. Original sin means that, because of Adam's first sin, we are all born with an evil nature that is against God. We all come into this world with a sinful nature. It is important to see that whereas imputed sin means that we share in the blame for Adam's sin, original sin means that we become polluted because of Adam's sin. Imputed sin most directly involves our legal standing, original sin most directly involves our moral character.

Sometimes it is thought that original sin means the transgression Adam and Eve committed, since that was the first (and thus original) sin. That is not accurate. Original sin refers to the results of Adam's sin--that all of his descendants are born sinners.

R.C. Sproul very clearly explains one of the very important truths that original sin teaches us: "We are not sinners because we sin. We sin because we are sinners." People do not come into this world good and then get a sinful nature upon their first willful sin that they commit. Rather, we come into the world with a sin nature and all of our sins are a result of having that sin nature. We act according to our natures. So because of our sin nature, we do sinful actions. A cow does not become a cow by mooing, but moos because he is a cow. Likewise we do not become sinners because we sin, but we sin because we are sinners.

There is a great wealth of scripture teaching that we are born sinful. The Bible everywhere either assumes original sin or outright teaches it. Let's take a look at some of this Scriptural evidence.

Where does the Bible teach original sin?
The first thing to understand is that God did not originally create Adam and Even as sinners. He created them good, without a sinful nature and without sinful inclinations in their hearts. When tested, they sinned by their own choice. Thus, God cannot be blamed for original sin, because he originally created Adam and Eve morally good: "God made men upright, but they have sought out many devices" (Ecclesiastes 7:29).

Scripture says that we are born sinners and that we are by nature sinners. Psalm 51:5 is a very clear statement that we all come into the world as sinners: "Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin my mother conceived me." Ephesians 2:2 says that all people who are not in Christ are "sons of disobedience." Being a son of something involves being born with its traits. For example, just as Bill Clinton was born with the traits of the Clinton family, so also all humans are born with the trait of disobedience. Ephesians 2:3 also establishes this, saying that we are all "by nature children of wrath." We are all "by nature children of wrath" because we are all by nature sinners--for God's wrath is not on a person unless they are a sinner and deserve that wrath. And since we are sinners by nature, we see that sin is not just something you do, it is something you are. Thus, Adam and Eve were originally created morally good, but because of their sin moral goodness vanished from the human heart and all of their descendants are thus born with a sinful nature.

Why did Adam and Eve, once they had become sinners, only give birth to more sinners? Why weren't their children born good? Because God has established things such that things reproduce after their kind. Since Adam and Eve were sinners, their children, who were born after their nature, were also sinners. Job 14:4 says "who can make the clean out of the unclean? Not one!" So because Adam and Eve became sinners, all of their descendants are sinners (which is the whole human race) because unclean people cannot produce clean people, but only more uncleanliness.

Scripture calls humans wicked from infancy. Along the same lines as the evidence we have just seen, there are verses which declare that we are wicked from the time that we are born. Proverbs 22:15 says "Foolishness is bound up in the heart of a child." Genesis 8:21 declares, "...the intent of man's heart is evil from his youth." Jonathon Edwards, in his classic work The Great Christian Doctrine of Original Sin Defended, remarks that on this verse: "The word translated youth, signifies the whole of the former part of the age of man, which commences from the beginning of life. The word in its derivation, has reference to the birth or beginning of existence...so that the word here translated youth, comprehends not only what we in English most commonly call the time of youth, but also childhood and infancy."

...................TO BE CONTINUED IN NEST POST

 

[Danus]

I believe that was a question, yes... Ill ask it again, please tell me what this scripture tells us:

Ezekiel 18:19-20 (KJV)
19 Yet say ye, Why? doth not the son bear the iniquity of the father? When the son hath done that which is lawful and right, and hath kept all my statutes, and hath done them, he shall surely live.
20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

Continuation of previous post ............................................Wickedness is often spoken of in Scripture as something belonging to the human race as a whole. This implies that it is the property of our species. In other words, wickedness is considered a property of human nature after the fall. Thus, it must be concluded that we are all born sinners, since we are all born human and sin is regarded as a property of humanity. One very clear passage on this we have already seen. Ephesians 2:3 says that we are "by nature children of wrath." The verses before this are also relevant to original sin: "And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest" (vv. 1-3). Paul is reminding Christians of what they were like before their conversion to Christ ("you were dead in your trespasses...in which you formerly walked"). Thus, all people, until and unless they are converted, are sinners. Paul went on to make it absolutely clear that all Christians came from this state ("...we to all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh") and that all non-Christians are still in this state ("...and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest.") Thus, Scripture regards all people before they are saved by Christ as sinners and thus deserving of punishment from God.

In Psalm 14:2, 3 we read: "The Lord has looked down from heaven upon the sons of men, to see if there are any who understand, who seek after God. They have all turned aside; together they have become corrupt; there is no one who does good, not even one." This verse is clear that wickedness is a property of all humans: "they have all turned aside...there is no one who does good." The phrase "together they have become corrupt" seems to point to the fact that all humans became corrupt at the same time--when Adam fell.

Job 15:14 similarly declares that wickedness is a property of humanity: "What is man, that he should be pure, or he who is born of a woman, that he should be righteous?" Verse 16 says that humans are "detestable and corrupt" and that we "drink iniquity like water!"

Jeremiah 17:9 says that "the heart is more deceitful than all else and is desperately sick; who can understand it." This seems to assume original sin--wickedness is a property of the human heart. Ecclesiastes 9:3 declares a similar truth: "...the hearts of the sons of men are full of evil, and insanity is in their hearts through their lives." Again, the human heart is wicked, and therefore all humans are wicked. This proves that we are born that we, for if infants did not come into the world as sinners, it could not be true that all humans are wicked and that wickedness is a property of humanity.

These texts make clear, then, that human nature is corrupt. Therefore, even infants are corrupt because they are human. And if infants are corrupt, then this is the same as saying that we are born that way--which means we are born with original sin. One may, however, object that these texts speak nothing of infants, only those who are old enough to make moral decisions. All of those people are wicked, but this doesn't mean that infants are. This is an ingenious objection, but it does not succeed.

First, the texts do not seem to restrict themselves to people who are old enough to make intelligent decisions. They seem to speak of human nature as a whole, a classification under which infants certainly fall. Second, as Jonathon Edwards pointed out, "..this would not alter the case...For if all mankind, as soon as ever they are capable of reflecting, and knowing their own moral state, find themselves wicked, this proves that they are wicked by nature."

In other words, even if these verses were only speaking of people old enough to mentally understand sin, they would still be teaching original sin. For on that view, these verses would be saying that all people, as soon as they know good from evil, find themselves sinners. But if all people, as soon as they are capable of moral decisions, find themselves sinners, this proves that they are that way by nature.

Third, Edwards also says, "why should man be so continually spoken of as evil, carnal, perverse, deceitful, and desperately wicked, if all men are by nature as perfectly innocent, and free form any propensity to evil, as Adam was the first moment of his creation?"[4]

Infants die, therefore they must be sinners. Death--both physical and spiritual--is a result of sin (Romans 5:12; 6:23). Thus, death cannot come upon anyone unless they are guilty of sin. Since infants die, they therefore must be sinners. Someone may point to Christ, who was sinless and yet He died. But He willingly gave up His life, and He did it to conquer the curse of death that we were under. In fact, God imputed to Christ our sins on the cross, and Christ died in punishment of those sins. (Remember, imputation involves your legal standing, not moral character. Christ was not turned into a sinner on the cross--He remained perfectly holy in His nature. He was counted guilty, or blamed, for our sins.)

God executes His judgements on infants. Thus, they must have come into the world guilty of original sin, since they have not yet committed any personal sins. Have you ever been troubled by the many Old Testament passages where God commands Israel to destroy whole cities--including the infants? These are very difficult passages! But that is because we do not have a proper view of sin. Since God is commanding the infants to be destroyed in judgement along with the rest of the inhabitants, the infants must be sinners. For God does not judge people for sin unless they are guilty of sin. But if the infants are guilty of sin, it cannot be by their own personal choice--since they don't yet have the mental capacity to make moral decisions. Thus, they must come into the world sinners because of Adam's sin.

Let's take a closer look at some of these passages. When God destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah, he said he would not destroy the righteous with the wicked (Genesis 18:25). The only righteous person found was Lot (and perhaps his family), and he was therefore rescued with his family. But the infants were left to be destroyed in that city. Therefore, the infants must have been wicked. This means that infants must be guilty of original sin. People often have the idea that infants are innocent before God. Not so! Looks are very deceiving. They are sinful just as we are.

In 1 Samuel 15:3 God commands Saul "Now go and strike Amalek and utterly destroy all that he has, and do not spare him; but put to death both man and woman, child and infant, ox and sheep, camel and donkey." The fact that God's judgement extends to children and infants must indicate that they are sinners. These passages should alert us to the fact that we have a very low, weak view of sin. We tend to think of sin as not being that big of a deal. But God considers sin to be so serious that even infants are deserving of judgement for their sinful natures.[5]

If we are not born sinners, why must we be born again? In John 3:6 and other places, it is said that we must be born again. But why is this, if the first time around we all enter the world fine? In declaring that we must be born spiritually, Jesus is declaring that physical birth is not enough for salvation (John 3:3-15). But how could He say this if we are born into the world innocent of sin?

If there is no original (or imputed) sin, there is no need for us to be redeemed by Christ. Christ came to save a fallen world. If our world is not in the clutches of original sin, then it is not fallen. If it is not fallen, what ultimate need is there for Christ?

If humanity is not born in sin, wouldn't we expect there to be some people who have "beaten the odds" and never sinned? If we are born innocent and good, wouldn't you expect there to be at least some people to have continued in this state and be sinless today? I think all of us know that "all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God" (Romans 6:23). The fact that everybody sins needs some explanation. The best explanation is that we are sinners by nature--we are born that way. Someone might argue that the reason all people sin is because society is sinful, and thus society renders it impossible for anybody to keep themselves entirely pure. But that only pushes the question back one step. How did society get sinful in the first place? If people are born morally good, wouldn't we expect there to have been at least some societies develop which are morally good?

The OT ceremonies indicate original sin. In his book The Reformed Doctrine of Predestination, Loraine Boettner writes: "The Old Testament ceremonies of circumcision of the new-born child, and of purification of the mother, were designed to teach that man comes into the world sinful, that since the fall human nature is corrupt in its very origin."

Is original sin fair? One may wonder if it is fair for us to be born sinners because of what somebody else did before we were even born. I believe that many reasons are able to establish the fairness of it. But for the sake of space, I will only give one. Consider these words of the great theologian R.L. Dabney: "[Man] is obviously under a curse for something, from the beginning of his life. Witness the native depravity of infants, and their inheritance of woe and death. Now, either man was tried and fell in Adam, or he has been condemned without trial. He is either under the curse...for Adam's guilt, or for no guilt at all. Judge which is most honorable to God, a doctrine which, although a profound mystery, represents Him as giving man an equitable and most favored probation in his federal head; or that which makes God condemn him untried, and even before he exists."

What a shocking truth: there is nobody and nothing on earth that is unaffected by sin. There are no pockets of goodness left in human society, apart from what God puts there by His redeeming power. Let us be gripped by the startling truth that the whole world is corrupted by sin!

Human Beings are all born fully sinful as a result of Adam's sin It is clear that we all fell when Adam sinned, and as a result we come into this world sinful. But how far did we fall? How sinful are we? Are we born just partially bad, with an island of goodness remaining in us, or are we born totally sinful? In other words, have we fallen only half-way down the cliff, or have we fallen so that we can't get up?

The Scriptures answer that we are born fully sinful. There is no island of goodness that is left in us. Genesis 6:5 says about mankind that "every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually." Lest anyone object that this was only the case before the flood (which occurred in Genesis 7) and after the flood God had wiped out this terrible evil in our hearts, God declares after the flood that: "The intent of man's heart is evil from his youth" (Genesis 8:21).

Ephesians 2:1 says that before conversion, Christians were "dead in trespasses and sins." We weren't simply sick, we were dead! People who are dead in sins cannot do good any more than a dead corpse can obey your command to wake up. Paul goes on to spell out just how terrible this condition really is, and to say that it is the condition of all people by nature (as we saw): "And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest" (Ephesians 2:1-3).

Romans 3:9-12 is another stunning incitement on all humanity. "...both Jews and Greeks are all under sin; as it is written, `There is none righteous, not even one; there is none who understands, there is none who seeks for God; all have turned aside, together they have become useless; there is none who does good, there is not even one.'" Jeremiah 17:9 says that "the heart is more deceitful than all else, and is desperately sick; who can understand it?" Job 15:16 says that man is "detestable and corrupt" and that he "drinks iniquity like water." So much for the common American notions that "people are basically good at heart" and "we aren't that bad after all." Let's stop flattering ourselves!

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Felix,

Jesus said that he was "The Way" and his early followers were considered followers of "The Way".

My son obeys me because he trusts me. He knows that I've got his best interest in mind and he wants to please me. I love my child and there is nothing he can do to earn my love and devotion for him. I believe this is similar to our obedience to Christ. We obey Christ because we love him like a child loves his father, and because we trust that Jesus has our back.. He's not going to leave us or abandon us, and he always has our best interest in mind.

Is this work? Absolutely, but it's a sanctifying work that holds a reward, not a wage.

One thing is that Christ tied love and obedience together..."if ye love Me, keep my commandents", Jn 14:15. So it is not possible to love Christ and not obey Him or obey Him and not love Him. Meaning one cannot love Christ and be saved now, then obey Him later. The love/obedience comes prior to being saved. Jesus commanded people to believe. So if I believe then that belief shows my love and obedience to Christ, yet that belief/love/obedience comes before salvation.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Righteous work must follow faith for that faith to be validated as the faith that justifies all by itself apart from the merit of work, not in order for that righteous work to now be credited to our account as righteousness, but to validate our faith as able to justify us all by itself.

If what you say above is true, then what if works do not follow faith? Then that means the faith is not valid. So one MUST have works to prove the faith be valid for an invalid faith cannot save. Without those works the faith is invalid so the works become essential to salvation in order to have a valid faith that saves. You have in a round about way made works a necessary part of salvation.

If true faith only saved, then no works would ever be necessary.

 

[rrowell]

Cornelius was added to the church at steps 2-3, as evidenced by the giving of the Spirit (unbelievers do not have the gifts that are given to the body of Christ). It's Biblically impossible to defend your list as a hard and fast formula for being saved. You have to lie to yourself to think otherwise.

See below Step 5 Acts 10:47-48 Note.

Do some people get saved with step 5? Of course. But it also true many get saved at step 2-3. I was born again by the Spirit at step 2-3. Most of the Christians I know were born again at step 2-3. Does that mean we don't have to have righteous behavior? Of course not, but that seems to be the only thing C.O.C. and similar doctrine can hear in our argument.

I is a Biblical impossibility to be saved at step 2 and/or step 3 or even as you say step 2-3, you did not say it, but because you said you have at least reached step three, you must agree that step 1 is a requirement to reach step 2 (as I think we both can agree, unless we have heard the word of God there is nothing to believe or know what to repent of), I think one of the troubles we will have is agreeing step 2 and 3 are separate steps, correct me if I am wrong but I believe your doctrine puts these steps as one (on which I believe the bible disagrees and will let the Bible speak to that)

step 1, we must hear the gospel:

John 20:30-31 (KJV)
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

Romans 10:17 (KJV)
17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.


So without Step 1, any further steps are not biblically possible.


Step 2, We must believe:

Romans 1:16 (KJV)
16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

Acts 18:8 (KJV)
8 And Crispus, the chief ruler of the synagogue, believed on the Lord with all his house; and many of the Corinthians hearing believed, and were baptized.


Hebrews 11:6 (KJV)
6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.


Without "Belief", that can only be achieved after we pass through step one, and belief (and I can see our squabble coming with this one) step three cannot be accomplished, because without first believing the gospel, by default you cannot believe you have anything to repent of, but belief alone will not save us, we must travel through the next door onward toward repentance see next step.


Step 3, Repent



Luke 13:3 (KJV)
3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.


Luke 24:47 (KJV)
47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.


Acts 3:19 (KJV)
19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;


Acts 17:30 (KJV)
30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:


So until we have heard the gospel (step 1) it cannot be possible to believe something you have not heard,

Once we achieve Belief meaning we passed through the door (step 2) to repentance (step 3), we are now commanded to repent, but you cannot show me one place in the bible that says belief and or repentance alone will save you without disregard for other scripture and contradiction... I am sure we will visit this again...


so we must go through the next door open to us on Gods path to salvation


Step 4, Confession:



Romans 10:9-10 (KJV)
9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.


Acts 8:37 (KJV)
37 And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.


Note in Romans 10:10 "confession is made "unto salvation", the word "unto" means we have not gotten there yet, "unto" means you have to do something to get there so yet another door is yet opened to us that we must pass through on our way to salvation:


step 5, "Be Baptized":


Matthew 28:19 (KJV)
19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:


Mark 16:16 (KJV)
16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.


(note here we are told "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved" so belief is a prerequisite to Baptism and is affirmed with the continued text "but he that believeth not shall be damned" if there is no belief there is no need for baptism as the baptism would be of no effect, no need to repeat it)



Acts 2:38 (KJV)
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

(note here repent, and be baptized (not just repent or believe) you must also be baptized to receive the gift of the Holy Ghost, to say belief and or repentance is enough to receive the Holy Ghost is to either add to the scripture or take it out of context)


Acts 10:47-48 (KJV)
47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.


(note, this is where Cornelius had the Holy Ghost come upon him, this was a Miracle and the only conversion in the scripture that the Holy Ghost was given before Baptism, in fact the ONLY other time this was done was at Pentecost to the Apostles, but even Cornelius was Baptized, to use this scripture alone with disregard to the other scripture is to disregard the bible as a whole; the inspired truth, this was a Miracle and has not been done since the end of the Apostolic age no more than has raising from the dead )


Acts 22:16 (KJV)
16 And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.


(note only after baptism is our sins washed away)


Romans 6:1-6 (KJV)
1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.


(note, cant be much clearer than what Paul has penned here, we must bury the old man (sin), to do this we must be baptized)


Galatians 3:27 (KJV)
27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.


(note, the only way to be a Christian is to be Christ like, to be a Christian we have to "put on Christ", to "put on Christ" we must be baptized)


Colossians 2:12 (KJV)
12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.


1 Peter 3:19-22 (KJV)
19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:
22 Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.


(Note, like Noah in his ark did save him by water, likewise does today baptism doth also now save us)


I am sure, and look forward to your take on steps 2 and 3 you see above where "repentance" IS a requirement of salvation, why Mr. Bass continues to point out it is not possible to be in a saved state without returning the horse as until you do, you have not truly repented...

From your previous posts, it appears you are of the Baptist faith, If you are, I would love for you to explain to me when in the Baptist Doctrine does a man become Penitent?

 

[felix]

Felix,

Jesus said that he was "The Way" and his early followers were considered followers of "The Way".

My son obeys me because he trusts me. He knows that I've got his best interest in mind and he wants to please me. I love my child and there is nothing he can do to earn my love and devotion for him. I believe this is similar to our obedience to Christ. We obey Christ because we love him like a child loves his father, and because we trust that Jesus has our back.. He's not going to leave us or abandon us, and he always has our best interest in mind.

Is this work? Absolutely, but it's a sanctifying work that holds a reward, not a wage.

True. But he had to be your son to have your love and you don't love a bastard.

(Heb 12:7-8) If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not? But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons. (KJV)

• Those who endure chastening of all who became partakers (i.e, those who believe in Christ and endure chastening) = sons.
• Those who are without chastening of all who became partakers (i.e, those who believe in Christ and without chastening) = bastards.

 

[felix]

Righteous work must follow faith for that faith to be validated as the faith that justifies all by itself apart from the merit of work, not in order for that righteous work to now be credited to our account as righteousness, but to validate our faith as able to justify us all by itself.

What [does it] profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him?
(Jas 2:14)

 

[farouk]

What [does it] profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him?
(Jas 2:14)

felix:

Good verse from James. It can be complemented by the teaching on repentance from passages such as Romans 2.

 

[rrowell]

Sure. Let's look at what it does not mean so that we can understand what it does mean.


Where does the Bible teach original sin?
The first thing to understand is that God did not originally create Adam and Even as sinners. He created them good, without a sinful nature and without sinful inclinations in their hearts. When tested, they sinned by their own choice. Thus, God cannot be blamed for original sin, because he originally created Adam and Eve morally good: "God made men upright, but they have sought out many devices" (Ecclesiastes 7:29).

Scripture says that we are born sinners and that we are by nature sinners. Psalm 51:5 is a very clear statement that we all come into the world as sinners: "Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin my mother conceived me." Ephesians 2:2 says that all people who are not in Christ are "sons of disobedience." Being a son of something involves being born with its traits. For example, just as Bill Clinton was born with the traits of the Clinton family, so also all humans are born with the trait of disobedience. Ephesians 2:3 also establishes this, saying that we are all "by nature children of wrath." We are all "by nature children of wrath" because we are all by nature sinners--for God's wrath is not on a person unless they are a sinner and deserve that wrath. And since we are sinners by nature, we see that sin is not just something you do, it is something you are. Thus, Adam and Eve were originally created morally good, but because of their sin moral goodness vanished from the human heart and all of their descendants are thus born with a sinful nature.

Why did Adam and Eve, once they had become sinners, only give birth to more sinners? Why weren't their children born good? Because God has established things such that things reproduce after their kind. Since Adam and Eve were sinners, their children, who were born after their nature, were also sinners. Job 14:4 says "who can make the clean out of the unclean? Not one!" So because Adam and Eve became sinners, all of their descendants are sinners (which is the whole human race) because unclean people cannot produce clean people, but only more uncleanliness.

Scripture calls humans wicked from infancy. Along the same lines as the evidence we have just seen, there are verses which declare that we are wicked from the time that we are born. Proverbs 22:15 says "Foolishness is bound up in the heart of a child." Genesis 8:21 declares, "...the intent of man's heart is evil from his youth." Jonathon Edwards, in his classic work The Great Christian Doctrine of Original Sin Defended, remarks that on this verse: "The word translated youth, signifies the whole of the former part of the age of man, which commences from the beginning of life. The word in its derivation, has reference to the birth or beginning of existence...so that the word here translated youth, comprehends not only what we in English most commonly call the time of youth, but also childhood and infancy."

To say that man is born with sin would require proof of how this "sin" is create/transmitted or in some way moved from one soul to another, or from one soul to a human body then again to a human body and again to the born soul, none of this what so ever can be proven scriptural, in fact scripture teaches the opposite,

The body and the soul are two different things, and the soul comes from God:

Ecclesiastes 12:7 (KJV) Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

God would not and will not be a creator of sin :

Psalms 5:4 (KJV) For thou art not a God that hath pleasure in wickedness: neither shall evil dwell with thee.

Habakkuk 1:13 (KJV) Thou art of purer eyes than to behold evil, and canst not look on iniquity: wherefore lookest thou upon them that deal treacherously, and holdest thy tongue when the wicked devoureth the man that is more righteous than he?

In fact God can create only that which is good, perfect, all good thing come from him:

James 1:17 (KJV) Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.

Therefore the Soul CANNOT be created with sin, so where can this sin come from? the Soul cannot be inherited from Adam, the soul is a spiritual autonomous thing created by God as we have seen from Ecclesiastes 12:7

Can the soul some how have sin transmitted to it from the body? no, The soul is placed in the body and the soul is created from God, as Paul would sometimes say "God Forbid" (I love when he says that :

Mark 7:15 (KJV) There is nothing from without a man, that entering into him can defile him: but the things which come out of him, those are they that defile the man.

So if the Soul is autonomously created, and the soul cannot inherit sin from another soul, and since the soul created by God, and God cannot create Sin, and that outside the soul (the body DNA? Gene?) cannot enter the soul (defiling the man) then the man cannot inherit, or be born with sin, it requires man made doctrine to support such a conclusion.

 

[farouk]

rrowell:

Plain wrong.

Psalm 51.5 says, 'In sin did my mother conceive me'.

Romans 3.23 says: 'All have sinned, and come short of the glory of God'.

 

[Danus]

To say that man is born with sin would require proof of how this "sin" is create/transmitted or in some way moved from one soul to another, or from one soul to a human body then again to a human body and again to the born soul, none of this what so ever can be proven scriptural, in fact scripture teaches the opposite,

The body and the soul are two different things, and the soul comes from God:

Ecclesiastes 12:7 (KJV) Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

God would not and will not be a creator of sin :

Psalms 5:4 (KJV) For thou art not a God that hath pleasure in wickedness: neither shall evil dwell with thee.

Habakkuk 1:13 (KJV) Thou art of purer eyes than to behold evil, and canst not look on iniquity: wherefore lookest thou upon them that deal treacherously, and holdest thy tongue when the wicked devoureth the man that is more righteous than he?

In fact God can create only that which is good, perfect, all good thing come from him:

James 1:17 (KJV) Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.

Therefore the Soul CANNOT be created with sin, so where can this sin come from? the Soul cannot be inherited from Adam, the soul is a spiritual autonomous thing created by God as we have seen from Ecclesiastes 12:7

Can the soul some how have sin transmitted to it from the body? no, The soul is placed in the body and the soul is created from God, as Paul would sometimes say "God Forbid" (I love when he says that :

Mark 7:15 (KJV) There is nothing from without a man, that entering into him can defile him: but the things which come out of him, those are they that defile the man.

So if the Soul is autonomously created, and the soul cannot inherit sin from another soul, and since the soul created by God, and God cannot create Sin, and that outside the soul (the body DNA? Gene?) cannot enter the soul (defiling the man) then the man cannot inherit, or be born with sin, it requires man made doctrine to support such a conclusion.

The scripture you have there along with your stated understanding and commentary is an indication that for you it would require some more proof of some kind.

If God's word does not speak to you as proof enough then you are left with searching for your own proof some place else, and you will have to remain in disagreement for now, or hammer the scripture as you wish.

You are left with gaping theological holes which will require you to ignore 2/3 of biblical text and interpret the reaming in a literal sense in witch is is not intended, and sadly I can not assist you in that. So, it seems we've come to the end of our discussion for now. ;)

 

[rrowell]

The scripture you have there along with your stated understanding and commentary is an indication that for you it would require some more proof of some kind.

If God's word does not speak to you as proof enough then you are left with searching for your own proof some place else, and you will have to remain in disagreement for now, or hammer the scripture as you wish.

You are left with gaping theological holes which will require you to ignore 2/3 of biblical text and interpret the reaming in a literal sense in witch is is not intended, and sadly I can not assist you in that. So, it seems we've come to the end of our discussion for now. ;)

Ill take that as you cannot dispute the truth the Bible contains, for if I am wrong it is your duty to show me so I can be corrected.

 

[rrowell]

rrowell:

Plain wrong.

Psalm 51.5 says, 'In sin did my mother conceive me'.

It says his mother was a sinner when he was conceived, not that he was born with sin.

Romans 3.23 says: 'All have sinned, and come short of the glory of God'.

It says all have sinned, it does not say they were born with it...

 

[rrowell]

Mr. Bass,

I apologize for letting your thread get somewhat off topic with the "born with sin", if it continues I will start another thread...

at several points in your thread it was brought to topic and I felt it cannot viewed as a truth when the bible does not teach it

 

[Danus]

Ill take that as you cannot dispute the truth the Bible contains, for if I am wrong it is your duty to show me so I can be corrected.

I fulfilled my obligation to correct you with gentleness and kindness, and that's what I did. Your under no obligation to accept it, so if there is nothing else, have a nice day. but you are right about one thing, i can not dispute the truth of the bible

 

[rrowell]

but you are right about one thing, i can not dispute the truth of the bible

I believe you do, I believe you as most others on this forum believe the bible to be truth, and if all would stick to the bible only and pray for understanding:

James 1:5 (KJV)
5 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.

we could all come to the unity that our Lord wishes us to have:

Ephesians 4:3 (KJV)
3 Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.