[_ Old Earth _] Theistic Evolution

[Barbarian]

Creationism isnt the same as paganism. Even if you don't accept evolution, it's not necessarily paganism.

 

[turnorburn]

Its roots are in paganism, the fruit bears witness, it gets worse, creationists are considered to be blaspheming God in some circles, at least that's what i found here..

Guy Consolmagno with the Vatican Observatory told Australia’s Fairfax Media that young earth creation beliefs are nearly tantamount to blasphemy.

http://christiannews.net/2014/10/27...tion-argues-god-and-evolution-are-compatible/

Do you agree?

tob

 

[gr8grace3]

Its roots are in paganism, the fruit bears witness, it gets worse, creationists are considered to be blaspheming God in some circles, at least that's what i found here..

Guy Consolmagno with the Vatican Observatory told Australia’s Fairfax Media that young earth creation beliefs are nearly tantamount to blasphemy.

http://christiannews.net/2014/10/27...tion-argues-god-and-evolution-are-compatible/

Do you agree?

tob

I do believe that the young earth creationists are arguing from a false premise. I do believe that man was created and the animals we see today were created in the Genesis account(Hence, no evolution). But, the earth was RESTORED after Genesis 1:1 and prepared for the beings and mankind that He created in the Genesis account.

Genesis 1:1-2~~1In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. Instant and perfect.


2 The earth was( BECAME , satans fall)formless and void, and darkness(a created darkness, Exodus 10:21) was over the surface of the deep(tehown,abyss), and the Spirit(salvation/regeneration/restorer) of God was moving over the surface of the waters.

As Christians,We have no idea how old the earth is. My guess,is science is catching up with the bible on this bit of truth.....its old.

As Christians, we can only speculate as to when man was created. We have no idea how long they were in the garden before they fell.

 

[turnorburn]

I've heard that theory as well "RESTORED after Genesis 1:1" and i don't buy it.. using the bible and the bible alone you can trace history back to Adam and Eve. I've talked to people that believe as i do but like one teacher said he'd lose his career if he pushed the issue.. When are Christians going to stop trusting scientific proposals as if they had the answers, they should all be required to take this test beginning in..

Job 38:1 Then the LORD answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said,

2 Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge?

3 Gird up now thy loins like a man; for I will demand of thee, and answer thou me.

4 Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.

http://av1611.com/kjbp/kjv-bible-text/Job-38.html

Job 39:1 Knowest thou the time when the wild goats of the rock bring forth? or canst thou mark when the hinds do calve?

2 Canst thou number the months that they fulfil? or knowest thou the time when they bring forth?

3 They bow themselves, they bring forth their young ones, they cast out their sorrows.

4 Their young ones are in good liking, they grow up with corn; they go forth, and return not unto them.

http://av1611.com/kjbp/kjv-bible-text/Job-39.html

Job 40:1 Moreover the LORD answered Job, and said,

2 Shall he that contendeth with the Almighty instruct him? he that reproveth God, let him answer it.

3 Then Job answered the LORD, and said,

4 Behold, I am vile; what shall I answer thee? I will lay mine hand upon my mouth.

http://av1611.com/kjbp/kjv-bible-text/Job-40.html

Job 41:1 Canst thou draw out leviathan with an hook? or his tongue with a cord which thou lettest down?

2 Canst thou put an hook into his nose? or bore his jaw through with a thorn?

3 Will he make many supplications unto thee? will he speak soft words unto thee?

4 Will he make a covenant with thee? wilt thou take him for a servant for ever?

http://av1611.com/kjbp/kjv-bible-text/Job-41.html

Job 42:1 Then Job answered the LORD, and said,

2 I know that thou canst do every thing, and that no thought can be withholden from thee.

3 Who is he that hideth counsel without knowledge? therefore have I uttered that I understood not; things too wonderful for me, which I knew not.

4 Hear, I beseech thee, and I will speak: I will demand of thee, and declare thou unto me.

http://av1611.com/kjbp/kjv-bible-text/Job-42.html


tob

 

[gr8grace3]

I've heard that theory as well "RESTORED after Genesis 1:1" and i don't buy it.. using the bible and the bible alone you can trace history back to Adam and Eve. I've talked to people that believe as i do but like one teacher said he'd lose his career if he pushed the issue.. When are Christians going to stop trusting scientific proposals as if they had the answers, they should all be required to take this test beginning in..

Job 38:1 Then the LORD answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said,

2 Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge?

3 Gird up now thy loins like a man; for I will demand of thee, and answer thou me.

4 Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.

http://av1611.com/kjbp/kjv-bible-text/Job-38.html

Job 39:1 Knowest thou the time when the wild goats of the rock bring forth? or canst thou mark when the hinds do calve?

2 Canst thou number the months that they fulfil? or knowest thou the time when they bring forth?

3 They bow themselves, they bring forth their young ones, they cast out their sorrows.

4 Their young ones are in good liking, they grow up with corn; they go forth, and return not unto them.

http://av1611.com/kjbp/kjv-bible-text/Job-39.html

Job 40:1 Moreover the LORD answered Job, and said,

2 Shall he that contendeth with the Almighty instruct him? he that reproveth God, let him answer it.

3 Then Job answered the LORD, and said,

4 Behold, I am vile; what shall I answer thee? I will lay mine hand upon my mouth.

http://av1611.com/kjbp/kjv-bible-text/Job-40.html

Job 41:1 Canst thou draw out leviathan with an hook? or his tongue with a cord which thou lettest down?

2 Canst thou put an hook into his nose? or bore his jaw through with a thorn?

3 Will he make many supplications unto thee? will he speak soft words unto thee?

4 Will he make a covenant with thee? wilt thou take him for a servant for ever?

http://av1611.com/kjbp/kjv-bible-text/Job-41.html

Job 42:1 Then Job answered the LORD, and said,

2 I know that thou canst do every thing, and that no thought can be withholden from thee.

3 Who is he that hideth counsel without knowledge? therefore have I uttered that I understood not; things too wonderful for me, which I knew not.

4 Hear, I beseech thee, and I will speak: I will demand of thee, and declare thou unto me.

http://av1611.com/kjbp/kjv-bible-text/Job-42.html


tob

Job 38:1 Then the LORD answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said,

2 Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge?

3 Gird up now thy loins like a man; for I will demand of thee, and answer thou me.

4 Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.

 

[turnorburn]

Exactly..

tob

 

[gr8grace3]

Exactly..

tob

So we have no place or right to say that the earth is x years old. Secular science nor Christians.

 

[Barbarian]

No one is doing that. It's one thing to have an opinion that is outside the mainstream. It's quite another thing to make that kind of characterization about what other Christians. The notion that each sort of living thing was made separately by some god or group of gods is commonly found among pagan religions, but that doesn't necessarily mean that creationism is pagan.

 

[Barbarian]

So we have no place or right to say that the earth is x years old. Secular science nor Christians.

The farther back one goes, the harder it is to say with any certainty. The age of the Earth is only known within some hundreds of millions of years.

 

[Edward]

Everything is supernatural in Gods kingdom, for him to do anything natural is out of character, as he demonstrated the entire time he walked with us some 2000 years ago, we could start with water to wine and finish with Lazarus instantly coming alive when Jesus spoke the words Lazarus come forth.. The problem lies in the inability of the natural man to understand the things of God.. for they are spiritually discerned..

Lessons begin in Genesis 1:1

tob

Amen brother. Just because we don't understand the connection or fine details doesn't make it not true. Everything was supernaturally done. Our stumbling block we run into is trying to make the connection (carnally) between God and natural things and their implementation. We can't do it that I am aware of.

We're told over and over in scripture to, lean not on our own understanding, live for the spirit, carnally minded thinking leads to death, and so forth. The creation was supernatural, we were created spirit beings and not human. We were made human at the fall. Point being that we can not understand supernatural happenings with a carnal mind or thought process. This is spiritual and we must think spiritually to get a grasp on it.

There's two ways of thinking. Carnally, and spiritually. We have little clue on how to think spiritually, having never been taught this. Engage the Spirit realm and learn to live as a spirit being. Completely. Don't put your faith in carnal "proofs"...there is a way which seems right unto man, but in the end leads to death.

 

[rthom7]

Greetings Barbarian,

Thanks for the picture

This is the free version....Google scans once per now and then....If one was a paid subscriber, you get new images more often.... and one need to view in a very hot summer when ice is melted off the ship...

But thanks for the picture....

Shalom

 

[gr8grace3]

The farther back one goes, the harder it is to say with any certainty. The age of the Earth is only known within some hundreds of millions of years.

In my opinion, science is getting pretty close to the right age. Just my speculation. But who knows, whats a trillion years to eternity?

The first trillion years of bible class in the eternal state might be the first quarter of the doctrine of how he devised salvation 101!

 

[Barbarian]

This is the free version....Google scans once per now and then....If one was a paid subscriber, you get new images more often.... and one need to view in a very hot summer when ice is melted off the ship...

Sorry, that won't fly. That's a ridge of rock. Notice the side rills just a bit downhill from the mark. And there's no possible way a structure as huge as the Ark was said to be, would be completely covered by snow at the crest of a ridge. It's just not there. It won't ever show up, because it's not there. Notice the red mark. That's 10 meters. The Ark was listed at about 15 times that long, and about 5 times that wide, and about 2.5 times as high. No way to hide that anywhere in that location.

 

[turnorburn]

The farther back one goes, the harder it is to say with any certainty. The age of the Earth is only known within some hundreds of millions of years.

Only known within some million of years is pure guess work you make it sound like fact and it is not..

tob

 

[Barbarian]

Only known within some million of years is pure guess work you make it sound like fact and it is not..

It is a very well-established fact. Even many creationists admit that it is very old. Until the 20th century, most creationist were old Earth creationists.

 

[turnorburn]

Back to Augustine..

The early Christian Church Fathers constantly argued with the pagans about the age of the earth, or about the age of civilization. They were unanimous that God had created the earth less than 6,000 years before they wrote.9 For example, one of the most influential, Augustine (AD354–430), in his most famous work, City of God, has a whole chapter, Of the Falseness of the History Which Allots Many Thousand Years to the World’s Past, where he says:

‘Let us, then, omit the conjectures of men who know not what they say, when they speak of the nature and origin of the human race. … They are deceived, too, by those highly mendacious documents which profess to give the history of many thousand years, though, reckoning by the sacred writings, we find that not 6000[9] years have yet passed.’10

He said its a pagan idea

The world will go to great lengths to cover up the truth Barbarian, were you aware the heads of state tried to cover up the resurrection of Jesus Christ, what makes you think the world has changed its posture on God..

Matthew 28:11-15

tob

 

[Free]

Back to Augustine..

The early Christian Church Fathers constantly argued with the pagans about the age of the earth, or about the age of civilization. They were unanimous that God had created the earth less than 6,000 years before they wrote.9 For example, one of the most influential, Augustine (AD354–430), in his most famous work, City of God, has a whole chapter, Of the Falseness of the History Which Allots Many Thousand Years to the World’s Past, where he says:

‘Let us, then, omit the conjectures of men who know not what they say, when they speak of the nature and origin of the human race. … They are deceived, too, by those highly mendacious documents which profess to give the history of many thousand years, though, reckoning by the sacred writings, we find that not 6000[9] years have yet passed.’10

He said its a pagan idea

And yet there is simply no way to get the age of the Earth from the Bible because it is silent on the issue.

The world will go to great lengths to cover up the truth Barbarian, were you aware the heads of state tried to cover up the resurrection of Jesus Christ, what makes you think the world has changed its posture on God..

Matthew 28:11-15

tob

The Church has done so as well, even killing those who disagree. I can all but guarantee that the very church fathers you appeal to for the age of the Earth also thought that the Earth was the center of the universe and quite likely that the Earth was flat. And they had the Scripture to back up their false beliefs.

 

[Edward]

It is a very well-established fact. Even many creationists admit that it is very old. Until the 20th century, most creationist were old Earth creationists.

I would have to disagree with that brother. I will agree that it is a well established theory and nothing more. That it has been so oft repeated and is accepted by many to be fact does not make it a fact, it just means that it has been accepted as the truth by some.

Remember what Hitler said about lies. If you repeat them often enough that eventually they will be accepted as fact. Scripture says that everything was created in 6 days. Now whether we understand they mechanics of it or the spiritual ramifications, is moot to the truth. I believe that grasping onto an oft repeated theory when one does not understand how it all happened is a pride issue or frustration in reaction to the not knowing.

I may not understand it, but scripture says it was 6 days so I have to believe that. The reference in Genesis about 'the evening and the morning were the first day and so forth is telling us that it was done in 6 24 days. God, being outside of our time domain is not subject to the laws and effects of time, so He could have easily created everything in 6 days without a problem.

Bless you brother.

 

[rthom7]

Greetings Barbarian, Sorry, that won't fly. That's a ridge of rock. Notice the side rills just a bit downhill from the mark. And there's no possible way a structure as huge as the Ark was said to be, would be completely covered by snow at the crest of a ridge. It's just not there.

I take your point, on my Google earth view, I just see a glacier.
But according to eye witness accounts, the glacier has broken the ark into two pieces...
View attachment 6349


Notice on the edge of the ridge the rocks flow over the ark, its broken into two pieces, as the glacier flows down the valley trench. The ice covers over the ark by some 25 m normally, and only a hot summer melts a portion of it.

The ridge line in red is what we see on Google Earth.

On a hot summer's day, US marines captured this picture....
View attachment 6350

The white block of the green arrow show the ark across the dangerous ridge.
And don't forget a person tied by a rope dangling over the cliff edge of the ridge took this shot of the ark:
View attachment 6351

You see the windows at the tops cubit and a half, and the barge like design.

The US do have better pictures but they are highly classified.
Several people have died giving out photos, as the Kurds hunt and kill them.
I suppose you need real verified evidence, but sometimes a possibility is so dangerous to existing theories of faith, science will not go look into it.

Shalom

 

[Barbarian]

I would have to disagree with that brother. I will agree that it is a well established theory and nothing more.

Try reading this:
http://www.amazon.com/Only-Theory-Evolution-Battle-Americas/dp/0143115669

Professional creationists have indoctrinated their followers into thinking "theory" means something like an educated guess. That's a lie.

Remember what Hitler said about lies. If you repeat them often enough that eventually they will be accepted as fact.

Yep.

http://www.livescience.com/21491-what-is-a-scientific-theory-definition-of-theory.html

Scripture says that everything was created in 6 days.

If you re-interpret it as a literal history in Genesis, you have a choice. One chapter says six days, and the other says one day.

may not understand it, but scripture says it was 6 days

Or one day, depending on which of the two chapters you intend to believe.