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[_ Old Earth _] Theistic Evolution

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Greetings Barbarian,

Your evidence....
View attachment 6340

Many people have seen the ark, one is named Ed Davis. This man here shows a picture where the ark is. He saw it many times. His drawing of the ark is shown here. During 1990 a survey viewed a strange white rectangle object, as green arrow shows, located 4,700m above sea level on the major mountain, of the mountains of Ararat. The last photo is one a man tied to rope and dangling over the cliff shot the ark as best he could. Nobody is allowed to visit this spot, it is heavily guarded by terrorist groups.

Notice the photo matches the drawing of the ark the man claims to have seen many times in his youth. Also Ed Davis confirms the same picture. The picture follows the Bible description of what the ark might look like.

The height of the ark clearly shows a global flood with waters hundreds of metres deep, all over the whole earth, as the Bible says it was.

Shalom
 
So people told you they saw it, but can't come up with a decent image of it? UFOs, Bigfoot, Nessie, and the Ark. They all cause images to be automatically blurry.

Google Earth has photographic view of all sides of Mt. Ararat down to a resolution of about a meter. And no Ark in sight. Why do you suppose it's not there?

The height of the ark clearly shows a global flood with waters hundreds of metres deep, all over the whole earth, as the Bible says it was.

As you know, the Bible doesn't claim a worldwide flood.
 
Barbarian,

Your welcome to believe in a local flood, and that man slowly evolved from ape like creatures into mankind, how the Adam and Eve version fits in I am not sure....or where death cake from originally ? Did creatures die all those millions of years ago as well? So the dinosaurs didn't die until Adam and Eve sinned 65 million years later, is that it? Evolution as it reads from science discredits Scripture, it never honours and respect it.

Please explain where Adam fits in and the death of creatures ?

Shalom
 
And this is yet another addition to scripture. God does not say there are "boundaries" between "kinds."

Greetings, Barbarian.

The word that is translated as "KIND" in the bible means "to separate out". How can one separate if there are no boundaries? Of course there are boundaries. The very meaning of the word “kind” (Hebrew, min or myin) represents the boundaries within which a group of organisms can reproduce. God 'separated out' and caused them to reproduce after that separation. You've heard it said that God created living organisms to reproduce “after their kind.” If not, look in and around Genesis chapter 1. There, in verses 11-12, we see: "Let the earth put forth grass, herbs yielding seed, and fruit trees bearing fruit after their kind, with its seed in it, on the earth; and it was so."

You have said that God does not tell us how He did it. But we were taken from dust and there we shall return. You simply may not substitute any meaning for a word willy-nilly like that. Dust does not mean ape. Unto ape ye shall return!?! What?

By the sweat of your face you will eat bread, till you return to the ground, because from it you were taken; for you are dust, And to dust you shall return.

You have also conveniently omitted God's account of how Eve was made. You've likely heard of "The Hopeful Monster" dilemma. As you know, in 1859 Charles Darwin denied saltational evolution by writing that evolutionary transformation always proceeds gradually and never in jumps.

Eve was formed from the rib of Adam. That happened during a single sleep period and there is absolutely no indication that the sleep lasted for billions of years. (And you think fairy tale 'Rip Van-Winkle' is a stretch.)

Eve must have lived contemporary to Adam and must have lived in close proximity. So now, if there is to be any reconciliation we must have two, contemporary and proximate, hopeful monsters. What else could be produced? Apes had been reproducing "after their kind" for as long as any could remember -- and then quite suddenly *POOF* now comes a new thing. A hairless ape. But this new ape can not reproduce unless there is another like it and that other must be in close proximity. There was no Internet for them to find themselves via online dating, don't-cha-know? That's one very hopeful young monster, isn't it? You want to say that the Bible calls this hopeful new ape-animal Adam. And God let that son-of-ape animal give names to all the other animals? And then God (who is not really his father because we know that God is not an ape) puts him to sleep to make a female from one of his bones or ribs?!? Now what is this? If we can't have God interfering with our theories by stating the truth then what?

Then what? This son-of-ape ate some fruit from a tree. OMG! What? This is how sin entered the world: a son-of-ape ate fruit from a tree (I speak tongue-in-cheek to show how absurd it is to try to reconcile the truth of the Bible with the fables of man). But wait, there's more. The grandsons-of-ape were also given names. Cain and Able. What was their crime? One offered produce and the other offered meat. Grandson-of-Ape should have known better. He should know how to offer sacrifice and should never even considered offering plants. There is no forgiveness of sin without the shedding of blood.

So you see, it's not just a matter of conflating a phrase or two anymore. We can no longer say, "The Bible says man was brought forth from the earth. So where the other animals." [sic] and leave it at that. There is way too much that is intentionally left out. Either the Bible is true as it is or we choose to place our belief in another testament.
 
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The word that is translated as "KIND" in the bible means "to separate out". How can one separate if there are no boundaries?

How does a prism separate out the colors of white light? No boundaries, but we still separate out colors.

The very meaning of the word “kind” (Hebrew, min or myin) represents the boundaries within which a group of organisms can reproduce. God 'separated out' and caused them to reproduce after that separation. You've heard it said that God created living organisms to reproduce “after their kind.”

God didn't say that.

You have said that God does not tell us how He did it.

Other than that He used natural things to make us.

But we were taken from dust and there we shall return.

That's all we get from God. The rest, He left for us to find out.

You simply may not substitute any meaning for a word willy-nilly like that.

Right. The question of how, given that He never told us how, is something science can investigate, at least as far as our physical bodies go.

Dust does not mean ape.

Our line goes back a lot farther than that.

By the sweat of your face you will eat bread, till you return to the ground, because from it you were taken; for you are dust, And to dust you shall return.
You have also conveniently omitted God's account of how Eve was made.

That seems to be almost certainly a parable for man and woman being one flesh. Obviously, the genes wouldn't work by some kind of cloning.

You've likely heard of "The Hopeful Monster" dilemma. As you know, in 1859 Charles Darwin denied saltational evolution by writing that evolutionary transformation always proceeds gradually and never in jumps.

It was never a settled issue. Huxley, his greatest advocate, differed with him on this point. The "Hopeful Monster" of Goldschmit was an entirely different idea than saltation. Moreover, Darwin expressly wrote in The Origin of Species that the pacing of evolution could be faster or slower, even if always incremental. Incremental change can happen in a quick series, or happen over a very long period of time. But still incremental. Punctuated equilibrium is very Darwinian, since it still regards incremental change as the norm, although it can be rapid, and interspersed with longer periods of stasis. Darwin also predicted this, pointing out that evolution for a well-adapted organism in a constant environment would have to be very slow or even absent.

It may be that Huxley was right about saltation, but if so, it's relatively rare. Massive changes in genome tend to be lethal, unless the organism is very, very lucky. I can't think of a change of the sort Darwin denied right off. If it happens, I would suppose it's by Neotony, the retention of juvenile characteristics in reproductively active adults. Chordates seem to have evolved in that way. It's an interesting set of details, if you'd like to hear about it.

So you see, it's not just a matter of conflating a phrase or two anymore. We can no longer say, "The Bible says man was brought forth from the earth. So where the other animals." [sic] and leave it at that. There is way too much that is intentionally left out. Either the Bible is true as it is or we choose to place our belief in another testament.

A millennium and a half ago, Augustine pointed out that Genesis had to be figurative in many ways, because a literal history as recorded therein, made no sense. It is entirely within reason that allegory can be about real people and real events. So it seems to me, and to perhaps the majority of those who have put their trust in Him.

The Catholic Church regards it as an open question, particularly since God does not make either belief a salvation issue. If you want to believe YE, it's O.K. as far as the Church is concerned. This is the case for Eastern Orthodox, Anglican, and most Lutheran denominations.

The physical evidence, however, is compelling and it is also important information about God and His purposes:

Romans 1:20 For the invisible things of him, from the creation of the world, are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made; his eternal power also, and divinity: so that they are inexcusable.
 
Barbarian observes:
As you know, scripture does not say it was worldwide. That is new addition to God's word. Nor does it say that it killed all breathing life on the planet



But nonethless, true. Scripture does not say what you want it to say.

Genesis 7:21 And all flesh died that moved upon the earth, (eretz) both of fowl, and of cattle, and of beast, and of every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth(eretz), and every man:

22 All in whose nostrils was the breath of life, of all that was in the dry land(eretz), died.

23 And every living substance was destroyed which was upon the face of the ground, both man, and cattle, and the creeping things, and the fowl of the heaven; and they were destroyed from the earth(eretz): and Noah only remained alive, and they that were with him in the ark.

24 And the waters prevailed upon the earth (eretz)an hundred and fifty days.


Parentheses are where "eretz", meaning "land" in the sense of an area, is used. The assumption that it must mean"planet" is man's addition.
Do you have any evidence or thoughts to where this flood was?
 
How does a prism separate out the colors of white light? No boundaries, but we still separate out colors.
So there is no difference between light and animals? If there are no distinct and clear boundaries between the colors of the rainbow (which neither Adam nor Eve have ever seen) this, to you, means that there are no boundaries found between kinds of animals or differing kinds of trees?!? You're wrong again but thanks for the reply.

I have no clue why you quote Augustine or the Catholic Church to me, certainly you know they hold no authority here. Oh, that's right. It's just your fall-back position. But are you certain that you wanted to close with the Romans quote? What "invisible things" did the Holy Spirit inspire Paul to write about? Evolution? Show me that if you would. From the context, that is - and not from the Gospel of Barbarian.

Romans 1:20 For the invisible things of him, from the creation of the world, are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made; his eternal power also, and divinity: so that they are inexcusable.

Continuing from Romans 1:21

Because that, when they knew God, they glorified [him] not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like the corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts and creeping things.

This set of verses is about idol worship.

In verse 17 we see what we need (the Righteousness of God). Next verse we see what we deserve (the Wrath of God). We see later later that God’s grace will give us the righteousness that we need (Rom. 3:24; 5:17; 5:20-21) and God’s mercy will keep us from the wrath which we deserve (Rom. 5:9; 11:32).

Romans 1:20
Remember the context of verse 19. Men have the knowledge of God. God has made Himself known to them. How has God done this? Verse 20 explains.


"Of Him" = of God Notice the paradox: men can clearly see the invisible things of God! The invisible God wants men to see Him! God is invisible but He is clearly seen!

"By the things that are made" -- CREATION MAKES KNOWN THE CREATOR. The visible things that are made point to the invisible Creator!

Barbarian, you are sounding like a proponent of Intelligent Design here. I am quite surprised. But it is doubtful that you are trying to express what the Holy Spirit said though Paul and I'd be curious (and looking forward) to hear how this supports your view.


~Always a pleasure,
Sparrow
 
Greetings Sparrowhawke, thanks for your input into reading our Bibles as they read.

Greetings Barbarian,

I found another video with more evidence of Noah's Ark, clear pictures ? no
Seems like the CIA and US marine gov agencies do not want us to know all there is about Noah's Ark....

You mention Google earth...yes if the ice is melted one could see the ark assuming Google Earth made close images over Ararat.

Google Earth Ark Precision Coordinates: 39 42 33.07 N / 44 18 1.26 E (degs/min/sec); NOAH'S ARK EXACT COORDINATES On Mt. Ararat: 39°42'33.07"N 44°18'1.26"E; 15,500 ft.; image correlation to Cummings-Anderson (1973) and Simmons-Arslan 1989 photos


My point is if the ship rested 4,700 metres above sea level, that alone suggests a world wide global flood.....

Shalom
 
Barbarian asks:
How does a prism separate out the colors of white light? No boundaries, but we still separate out colors.

So there is no difference between light and animals?

We see the same lack of boundaries within living things. It's exceedingly hard to draw such boundaries which is why creationists resist giving a testable definition of "kind." As Darwin pointed out, it is almost impossible to draw such lines, because populations evolve. If creationism were true, it would be easy. But such tight boundaries don't exist.[

I have no clue why you quote Augustine or the Catholic Church to me, certainly you know they hold no authority here.

In Augustine's day, it was the only sort of Christianity around. And of course, Augustine is considered to be an authoritative theologian by Catholic, Protestant, and Eastern Orthodox Christians.

But are you certain that you wanted to close with the Romans quote?

Yep. St. Paul is telling us that nature itself will tell us about God, if we are inclined to listen to it. It is, he says, such an authoritative source that others have no excuse for not listening. This relates to both the evidence from creation, and the "invisible" natural law, he says governs gentiles.

What "invisible things" did the Holy Spirit inspire Paul to write about?

Creation itself.

Evolution?

Doubt if Paul knew about that. Didn't know about a lot of things in nature that are true. But I can assure you that if you go out by yourself in nature and let what you know and what you experience there guide you, there will be an epiphany for you. And the more you know of creation, the better it is.

Show me that if you would. From the context, that is - and not from the Gospel of Barbarian.

Romans 1:20 For the invisible things of him, from the creation of the world, are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made; his eternal power also, and divinity: so that they are inexcusable.

From the creation of the world, these things are understood by "the things that are made" (humans). His very creation is a message to us.

Because that, when they knew God, they glorified [him] not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like the corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts and creeping things.

This set of verses is about idol worship.

Yep. Turning from His creation, they made up their own beliefs, which were not consistent with the things He showed them. It's a cautionary tale for those inclined to add things to His word.

"Of Him" = of God Notice the paradox: men can clearly see the invisible things of God! The invisible God wants men to see Him! God is invisible but He is clearly seen!

Of course. This is what St. Paul is telling you.

"By the things that are made" -- CREATION MAKES KNOWN THE CREATOR. The visible things that are made point to the invisible Creator!

My point, exactly. He is saying nature itself is a message from God.

Barbarian, you are sounding like a proponent of Intelligent Design here.

No, I would not demean God into a mere "designer", a mere tinkerer. He is the Creator. A few IDers actually accept what they see in nature. Michael Denton does, acknowledging that all physical things in this universe are produced by nature, which he supposes is the result of an intentional process. Michael Behen admits the fact of evolution, only supposing that God has to step in now and then to make it work properly. But most aren't willing to accept those invisible things, clearly seen.

I guess the answer is to go and see. Head out into the mountains, or into the Olympic Forest alone, and take just let it in. You'll see that He's always there. If you'll forgive me for bringing up another Catholic:

We need to find God, and he cannot be found in noise and restlessness. God is the friend of silence. See how nature - trees, flowers, grass- grows in silence; see the stars, the moon and the sun, how they move in silence... We need silence to be able to touch souls.
Mother Teresa

This is a very old Christian practice, and a good one for our times, when "awkward silence" is almost feared by people accustomed to constant discourse. Be still and know.
 
Barbarian said: Doubt if Paul knew about that "evolution"

Says here he did

Romans 1:23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

tob
 
i just found this Barbarian, you use Augustine a lot in your posts, do you know what he said about evolution?

The early Christian Church Fathers constantly argued with the pagans about the age of the earth, or about the age of civilization. They were unanimous that God had created the earth less than 6,000 years before they wrote.9 For example, one of the most influential, Augustine (AD354–430), in his most famous work, City of God, has a whole chapter, Of the Falseness of the History Which Allots Many Thousand Years to the World’s Past, where he says:

‘Let us, then, omit the conjectures of men who know not what they say, when they speak of the nature and origin of the human race. … They are deceived, too, by those highly mendacious documents which profess to give the history of many thousand years, though, reckoning by the sacred writings, we find that not 6000[9] years have yet passed.’10

He said its a pagan idea

http://creation.com/evolution-ancient-pagan-idea

tob
 
I found another video with more evidence of Noah's Ark, clear pictures ? no
Seems like the CIA and US marine gov agencies do not want us to know all there is about Noah's Ark....

You mention Google earth...yes if the ice is melted one could see the ark assuming Google Earth made close images over Ararat.

Well, let's take a look...

16792341450_65765ac4be_b.jpg
ou
The red line is about ten meters on this scale. The little blue line is where your coordinates are, at the top of a ridge. Notice, no Ark.

My point is if the ship rested 4,700 metres above sea level, that alone suggests a world wide global flood.....

Phillip of Macedon once wrote the Spartans that if he entered Laconia, he would destroy Sparta. The Spartans replied:
"If."
 
Barbarian observes:
Doubt of Paul knew about evolution.

Says here he did

Romans 1:23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

Nope. Says nothing about how organisms came to be. That is, as Sparrowhawke notes, about idolatry, not evolution.
 
Barbarian observes:
Doubt of Paul knew about evolution.



Nope. Says nothing about how organisms came to be. That is, as Sparrowhawke notes, about idolatry, not evolution.

Making the glory of a supernatural God look natural, you bet its idolatry..

tob
 
You forgot this one..

The early Christian Church Fathers constantly argued with the pagans about the age of the earth, or about the age of civilization. They were unanimous that God had created the earth less than 6,000 years before they wrote.9 For example, one of the most influential, Augustine (AD354–430), in his most famous work, City of God, has a whole chapter, Of the Falseness of the History Which Allots Many Thousand Years to the World’s Past, where he says:

‘Let us, then, omit the conjectures of men who know not what they say, when they speak of the nature and origin of the human race. … They are deceived, too, by those highly mendacious documents which profess to give the history of many thousand years, though, reckoning by the sacred writings, we find that not 6000[9] years have yet passed.’10

He said its a pagan idea

tob
 
i just found this Barbarian, you use Augustine a lot in your posts, do you know what he said about evolution?

Yep:
Augustine draws out the following core themes: God brought everything into existence in a single moment of creation. Yet the created order is not static. God endowed it with the capacity to develop. Augustine uses the image of a dormant seed to help his readers grasp this point. God creates seeds, which will grow and develop at the right time. Using more technical language, Augustine asks his readers to think of the created order as containing divinely embedded causalities that emerge or evolve at a later stage. Yet Augustine has no time for any notion of random or arbitrary changes within creation. The development of God's creation is always subject to God's sovereign providence. The God who planted the seeds at the moment of creation also governs and directs the time and place of their growth.


Augustine argues that the first Genesis Creation account (1:1–2:3) cannot be interpreted in isolation, but must be set alongside the second Genesis Creation account (2:4–25), as well as every other statement about the Creation found in Scripture. For example, Augustine suggests that Psalm 33:6–9 speaks of an instantaneous creation of the world through God's creative Word, while John 5:17 points to a God who is still active within creation.


Further, he argues that a close reading of Genesis 2:4 has the following meaning: "When day was made, God made heaven and earth and every green thing of the field." This leads him to conclude that the six days of Creation are not chronological. Rather, they are a way of categorizing God's work of creation. God created the world in an instant but continues to develop and mold it, even to the present day.
http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2009/may/22.39.html

Augustine argues that Genesis 1:12 implies that the earth received the power or capacity to produce things by itself: "Scripture has stated that the earth brought forth the crops and the trees causally, in the sense that it received the power of bringing them forth."

Where some might think of the Creation as God's insertion of new kinds of plants and animals readymade into an already existing world, Augustine rejects this as inconsistent with the overall witness of Scripture. Rather, God must be thought of as creating in that very first moment the potencies for all the kinds of living things to come later, including humanity.

This means that the first Creation account describes the instantaneous bringing into existence of primal matter, including causal resources for further development. The second account explores how these causal possibilities emerged and developed from the earth. Taken together, the two Genesis Creation accounts declare that God made the world instantaneously, while envisaging that the various kinds of living things would make their appearance gradually over time—as they were meant to by their Creator.

The image of the "seed" implies that the original Creation contained within it the potential for all the living kinds to subsequently emerge. This does not mean that God created the world incomplete or imperfect, in that "what God originally established in causes, he subsequently fulfilled in effects." This process of development, Augustine declares, is governed by fundamental laws, which reflect the will of their Creator: "God has established fixed laws governing the production of kinds and qualities of beings, and bringing them out of concealment into full view."
http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2009/may/22.39.html?start=3

The early Christian Church Fathers constantly argued with the pagans about the age of the earth, or about the age of civilization.

More to the point, they rejected the pagan idea that some less-than-omnipotent god or pack of gods, create each species separately as a bits-and-pieces creation. Augustine pointed out that God's creation contained the potentiality to grow and develop, always under His direct involvement. So many or all organisms were not part of the initial creation, he thought:

As for the other small creatures that come forth from the bodies of animals, particularly from corpses, it is absurd to say that they were created when the animals themselves were created, except in the sense that there was present from the beginning in all living bodies a natural power, and, I might say, there were interwoven with these bodies the seminal principles of animals later to appear, which would spring forth from the decomposing bodies, each according to its kind and with its special properties, by the wonderful power of the immutable Creator who moves all His creatures.

St. Augustine, De Genesi ad Litteram 3, 14, 23)

He said its a pagan idea

And now you know better. He was surprisingly astute, given the lack of evidence. The best evidence he had for the age of the Earth was that it was relatively young. However, he agreed that when evidence showed an interpretation to be wrong, we should be willing to re-evaluate it.
 
Making the glory of a supernatural God look natural, you bet its idolatry..

The Gnostics thought that nature was somehow evil and therefore not God's creation. I don't agree with that or with your revision to it. Nature is from God, and is as much of a miracle as anything else.
 

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